| Author | Message | ||
     John Booth (Jboothmtnbkr) New Member Username: Jboothmtnbkr Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2003 |
Does anyone have any advice on a cheaper alternative to fixing this situation? The Land Rover dealership quoted me about $400 in parts (new amplifier, relocation kit and new coil). The RR still starts and runs fine but during an off-road event a few weeks back the coil overheated and melted some of the insulation inside. I'm assuming at some point it's going to fail and not start. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 98 Registered: 04-2003 |
Coil - NAPA relocation kit - make your own ICM - XKSunlimited | ||
| marc waitek (Singingcamel) New Member Username: Singingcamel Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2003 |
a word about that coil i would stay with the original...you'll have problems later on..some coils are not designed to lay on the there side.i have heard of alot of coil problems non genuine for what it's worth | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2003 |
John, I have a similar problem. I wasn't sure who is transferring heat to whom since they're on the same bracketry. So I separated them and noticed that the ICM is a steady 130 deg F vs 170 for the coil! Also, I can hear the coil firing if I put my ear close to it. I'm going to check all plugs, wires and reluctor spacing today. The coil is a Accel super coil ($40 pepboys) and has been working great. Just for kicks, bought me an universal coil from Autozone for $14 and it got hot too. The big problem is that when everything is really hot under load then it starts to sputter and misfires and don't wannna go anymore. I'll replace the ICM too just for kicks. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 100 Registered: 04-2003 |
couldn't the stuttering and misfiring be due to a loose coil wire??? | ||
| John Booth (Jboothmtnbkr) New Member Username: Jboothmtnbkr Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks for all the info. How long have you been running the Accel super coil and are all the correct connectors on it (including the oxygen sensor). | ||
| Jon Santana (Mustache) Member Username: Mustache Post Number: 63 Registered: 09-2002 |
I'm singing my "genuine parts" song again, fellas. Use an aftermarket coil, and you will encounter problems. It sounds far fetched, but spend another ten bucks on the OEM coil and you could add 5 years onto your life ;) | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1668 Registered: 02-2002 |
Genuine Parts, like Rover has a little guy in the back winding coils. Keep in mind some of these coils were wound by Lucas... The others are Bosch. Sorry Jon, I work for a Tier One supplier, Rover makes very little of their own stuff. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 520 Registered: 02-2003 |
yeah paul but i think they make whoever is being genuine that year step up the spec's a little bit. because i see it way too often. i'm driving around with a cadillac fuel pump and sunbird steppermotor in my rangie, but damn it my rotor and cap are genuine!  | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2003 |
John, The accel supercoil has been in service since '99. I bought another one from Autozone yesterday for $40 just to see if the coil is the culprit. It isn't the problem since it can throw a spark long way! However, what I found out was that one of the little spade connector in the ICM was loose and I'm hoping that contributed to the surging problem. As far as correct connections, well you have a + and a - stud on the coil. The stock spade connections get loose over time so it's a good idea to switch to ring terminals for better contact. I did this on my oem coil too. There's no O2 sensor wire on the coil. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1678 Registered: 02-2002 |
Another thing that I have just learned. The ground side of the coil, benefits from a parallel ground connection. The connector on the wheel well gets nasty and doesn't always conduct. By running a secondary ground, this problem has been alleviated. I learned this while relocating the amplifier. | ||
| John Booth (Jboothmtnbkr) New Member Username: Jboothmtnbkr Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks again for the info. I've ordered some parts from the web and should get them soon. | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2003 |
I concur with Paul on the grounding issue. A second wire running straight from the neg batt term to the ICM bracket is a great idea. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1716 Registered: 02-2002 |
Ali: I run the wire directly from the ICM to the coil, bypassing everything in the circuit. The problem is the wire on the wheelwell with the disconnect, the disconnect becomes very badly corroded and intermittent is a compliment. One thing I learned while experimenting with the GM amplifier was that when I switched back to the Rover amp, I crossed the ICM output wires. When the truck wouldn't start (did I say it did not belong to me?), I freaked! thinking I'd smoked the ECU... Turns out the Rover quite kindly set it up such that it will blow a fuse if you do as I did... | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 800 Registered: 02-2002 |
Genuine coil - hmmmm, a coil from a 67 Nova ($8.00 - autoparts store) has been doing just fine for a couple years now Bill | ||
| Jon Santana (Mustache) Member Username: Mustache Post Number: 69 Registered: 09-2002 |
ok, ok... might working fine for you (more power to ya) but i had serious truoble and it was traced directly to the Accel coil. i was told several times to use a genuine coil for several reasons and it proved true. believe me, i'm all for using aftermarket schtuff... but if it dont work, it dont work. just my 2c Jon | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1720 Registered: 02-2002 |
My next experiment will be to try using the GM HEI coil to see if I can get those tremendous voltages that will jump a 0.060 gap! Yeah Baby! HEI amplifier and HEI coil... If it doesn't burn through the plug wires, it isn't generating enough voltage! | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 823 Registered: 09-2002 |
Paul, why HEI? The only advantage of HEI setup is to have all of it - distributor, ignition module, and coil - in the same place. It is a real beauty to have one wire hook-up. However, there's not a slightest chance for an HEI dist to fit in the rover engine, for the only reason - size of the dist.cap. And there's a reason for it, too - high voltage coming from the coil requires larger separation of terminals on the cap. Will you get more voltage if you cludge anything together using the HEI coil? yes. However, most likely, it will result in you having to replace the stock dist.cap every couple of weeks due to surface arcing. 0.06 gap... I've had this on the oil-burning jeep engine, MSD ignition/coil/wires. Was working great. On the not-so-much-oil-burning jeep engine, stock (considered way crappy) setup worked just fine, with .035 or .04 gap. FWIW, all this - with Champion Truck plugs, the so-much-famed Bosch Platinum 4s fouled up in ONE DAY. peter | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1730 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter: My goal was to find a replacement for the high $ ignition amplifier. Comparing my $12.99 GM HEI amplifier to the lowest cost Rover part, it seemed like a no-brainer. When it worked, it became even more elegant. As for the separation of the towers, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Evolutionary experiments take a while. Remember the Saginaw pump? It is getting closer as well. Peace, Paul | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 802 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter - FYI - you can fit a GM HEI dist. on a Rover engine - I don't have a picture handy to prove it. But it does work and fit - tight, but it fits. Dale Wennegals 4.6 RR (88) has the dizzy front cover with a GM HEI. I thought the same thing until I saw it firsthand. Bill | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1732 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill: From which GM engine did the distributor come? Damn, here I thought I had something new. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 825 Registered: 09-2002 |
Paul, it may not matter, for you'd have to modify the distributor case and shaft anyway. Bill, I cannot possibly envision how the HEI distributor clears the water pump and intake. In my vast collection of vehicles, one has a Buick 350; a little wider than 215, but still not enough room for an HEI dist. One thing makes me wonder - you said he had an HEI dist. on the 4.6? That makes for a really odd combo. Have any pictures? peter | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 826 Registered: 09-2002 |
...come to think of it, I've spent a few hours at junk yards looking for vehicles with HEI ignition setup. And in all of them the distributor was offset from the intake manifold quite a bit farther than in Buick 215 and 350 and derivatives. peter | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1734 Registered: 02-2002 |
Offset? In what way? The reason I was asking about what vehicles was due to my comparing a Rover distributor with an old Chevy distributor. In that case, there are way too many differences to consider using. Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 827 Registered: 09-2002 |
_real_ old Chevy motors have a distributor in front, and it ain't HEI. the offset - the distance from the axis of the distributor to the closest part of the intake. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1735 Registered: 02-2002 |
The only Chevrolet engine worth discussing was introduced in 1956 and didn't even have provision for an oil filter! LOL I'm still curious as to what vehicles that distributor came out of. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 828 Registered: 09-2002 |
stop by the junk yard. i was surprised to find a lot of HEI distributors in both rear-dist and front-dist (some BOPC) applications. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1737 Registered: 02-2002 |
The more important consideration is the diameter of the shaft, the length of the shaft and the gender of the oil pump drive. Hence my interest in having some inkling of an idea as to what I needed before I started pokin' around the boneyards. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 829 Registered: 09-2002 |
There are many more considerations, Paul, like the distance between the flange and gear, gear size and others. Basically, you may need a rover distributor's bottom end welded on to the HEI dist. top end (as a figure of speech, but not too far from truth). you may get lucky with simple machining, though. as I understand, this is how AMC V8-fitting HEI distributors are made. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 830 Registered: 09-2002 |
check this - narrow-body HEI conversion: http://www.davessmallbodyheis.com/ | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1740 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter: I have held a Rover distributor in one hand and a Chevy in the other, the caliper was in the third hand Slade accused me of having (insert smilie here). Yes, there are other considerations as well. Thought about the cut/weld, but way too intensive for an experiment in trying to find cheaper alternatives. I'll check the link. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 832 Registered: 09-2002 |
gimme your hands with what's in it, i'll sort'em out! | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 806 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter and Paul - I wish I had a picture to show you! The installation that I saw was a standard GM HEI - not a small body size or anyhting special. Obviously the gear had to be fabbed and the length played with, but it did fit (tightly). Dale W. is sales mgr at LR westchester - if you want to contact him - email me off list for his contact info. Sorry I don't have more info. Bill | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1743 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill: I have exchanged e-mails with Dale a few times. The drive gear appears to be very similar to that of a SBC. Different oil pump drive, but the drive gear appeared to be identical. Also, didn't GM go to a smaller cap on the engines that had the remote mounted coil? | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 833 Registered: 09-2002 |
it may have, Paul, but it defies the reason for HEI to be there. Paul, if you start making HEI distributors for pre-GEMS rovers, you can make a few bucks. OTOH, I don't see much activity in the Saginaw steering conversion business... I've emailed Dave (who makes narrow-body HEI conversions) about rover application, wonder what he comes up with. peter | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1744 Registered: 02-2002 |
I finally went to the website for Dave, it looks as though he shouldn't have much difficulty. Things have gotten too busy with fixing other folks' trucks (including the use of an HEI amplifier on a Range Rover, pictures are on the pirate board of the experimental setup) for the Saginaw project to progress much-that and my truck no longer rivals the Exxon Valdez with ATF... And, I can't seem to find a pulley, nor get the damned flange off a Rover pump. And, don't forget I have a Series truck that is not finished, along with the new Rangie. When is retirement again? | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 808 Registered: 02-2002 |
Paul - the HEI that Dale has installed is a standard coil-in-cap variety - not remote mounted. AAMOF - he bought it from the same place that curved a few dist for me back in the "go fast" days - http://www.performancedistributors.com/ Bill | ||
| Craig Alexander (Craig89rr) New Member Username: Craig89rr Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2003 |
Be careful with after market coils !!! i got one from Advanced auto which was a Swarinson (im sure i spelled that wrong). Even though it was a range rover list in their computer, is wasnt the right one. Rnage Rover coils have a resistance balist in them which ONLY let out 10V even though 12 are going to it. this one didnt have it and friend my ignition system. Needless to say that when i contacted Advanced Corp and they contacted Swarinson Tech line...they both agreed to by me a whole new system and take that coil part number out of their system. The funny thing is, Swarinson has a coil with a resistance balist in it that would of worked just fine. I agree with Mslade and make your own relo kit and Rovercity has the cheapest prices on modules that ive found. Craig89RR | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1750 Registered: 02-2002 |
The cheapest module is the GM HEI. $12.99 works fine. I'll probably be going to the GM ignition here in the next month with an Accel HEI coil. Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 836 Registered: 09-2002 |
Watch out for Accel stuff - their quality is already way donwhill. I will not buy ANY Accel parts anymore, after having to solder EVERY terminal on the Accel HEI cap. Pity, I used to buy their stuff. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1752 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter: I have never been impressed with Accel stuff, overpriced for bright yellow stuff that impressed folks who didn't know any better. I made my comment after having read on Dave's site that he uses them and they are apparently compatible with the HEI stuff. Peace, Paul | ||
| Craig Alexander (Craig89rr) New Member Username: Craig89rr Post Number: 20 Registered: 01-2003 |
Paul...a GM module will work in replace of an stc1184 rover ignition module?? | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 838 Registered: 09-2002 |
Craig, in theory, any ignition module designed for magnetic pickup should work. ... including Motorcraft, hehe | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1757 Registered: 02-2002 |
Well, there are some other considerations, like pickup coil resistance differences (if the amp is looking for too high an impedance, it may see the Rover coil as a dead short), and internal resistances and paths to ground. So far, I have tried the Sorenson EL 108 and it works. The current direction of this research project (Peter, there is an immediate demand and as such, the minister of finance has released the R&D funding) is to find a reluctor assembly that will fit inside the Rover housing. If possible, I may try to find an amplifier that will also fit in the housing, but I have serious concerns over heat dissipation and longevity. Of course, as you have stated, the issue of carbon tracking may arise and we certainly do not wish to ventilate our distributor caps as is done on some high-perf applications. If anyone has a junk distributor they would like to contribute to the cause, I'm up for it. I am searching for a donor distributor from a Rover and will probably have an assortment of HEI GM donors by the end of the long weekend. Oh yeah, the wiring from the pickup to the amplifier is not particularly critical, but the output of the amp to the coil is absolutely critical. I you wire it up backwards, it will blow a fuse and the engine won't start, also, the case must be grounded for acceptable operation. PEace, Paul Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 839 Registered: 09-2002 |
damn, i am struggling to get an approval for another set of tires, let alone research projects. btw, i did some fingerwork not too long ago - since HEI modules came to life, a lot of better electronic components emerged, including specialized chips to amplify (rather, condition) the signal from the pickup coil, and MOSFETs and IGBTs to switch the ignition coil. The LM2907 and 600V/20A MOSFET tip the scale at $9 from DigiKey. Both can be surface-mounted on the 1cm2 board. Peter | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1770 Registered: 02-2002 |
Surface mounted components are the work of the devil. One can only imagine the problems one would encounter were Lucas to adopt such technology. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 844 Registered: 09-2002 |
for us old farts they still make variety with legs. which reminds me of one occasion when my mom sat in my dad's car ... on top of a 7-segment LED indicator laying face down on the seat. An SMT indicator would've saved my day! |
