| Author | Message | ||
     Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 26 Registered: 05-2003 |
The headliner on my 96 D1 has started to sagg and progressively getting worse. I've searched the archives but have not been able to find any quick fixes. Has anyone been able to fix this problem? | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2003 |
If you find out how, let me know--I have the same thing going on in my '95. | ||
| Douglas McMillan (Mcmillan) New Member Username: Mcmillan Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2002 |
I just replaced the front Sunroof in my 95 Disc. and had no issues. So I know how it is all attached. Where is it sagging? | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2003 |
Between front and rear passenger's side seats--right around the bend, but on the front part (lower area of bend). | ||
| Greg French (Gregfrench) Senior Member Username: Gregfrench Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2002 |
MIne is, too. I was thinking about some sort of tacks or something. What would it hurt to just remove the whole thing and paint the board? | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 457 Registered: 12-2002 |
My RR headliner is held up with small staples. If you do a nice pattern it's really not that bad. | ||
| James Nyazai (Nyazai) New Member Username: Nyazai Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2003 |
They make a headliner glue in a spray can, looks like 3M Super 77 or something - I wonder if that would work? Maybe make a small hole in the material in the center of the sagging part, poke a little straw attached to the nozzle through it, and spray it all around - wait a few minutes, and gently press the material back up with the back of your hand? Just a thought... I have the same, and was pondering it myself. | ||
| ken knebusch (Charlotterover) Member Username: Charlotterover Post Number: 167 Registered: 02-2002 |
mine is sagging in the same areas as listed above and above the rear door now. it is also coming off right behind the rearview mirror. i have put some tan tacks there and they work for now until i find something else. i have tried some spray adhesives but not the 3m one yet. it looks like i may have to break out the wallet and have it all replaced since from what i have gathered it is the foam that is the problem. ken | ||
| Brent Bevil (Brbevil) New Member Username: Brbevil Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2003 |
Tried the 3M spray on another vehicle - Disaster - It really did not go well. Pokeing a small hole and spraying it in just made lots of wrinkles that were impossible to sort out. However I did use it on the leading front edge of my headline in my disco. I sprayed it straight back and worked the cloth forward to the windshield. That worked really well. | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 144 Registered: 02-2003 |
Problem is the fabric is stretched and difficult to shrink back. I have never heard of a succesful cure for this problem and I would say replacement is the best cure, this used to be an issue with RRc`s and you can now get replacement headliners made from GRP, that doesn`t sag. Maybe you can get one for a D1, but I`ll bet this ain`t cheap. Best of luck Pete S. | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 156 Registered: 02-2003 |
This thread sounds just like those on the Rn BBS a few years ago when the Classics were beginning to age.....bottom line still seams to be there is no good solution other than replacement. Which has me wondering...salvage yards? There are far more D1's around than there were ever RRC's so maybe.... Whadya think? | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2003 |
Guys, The problem is that the headliner material is fused to a thin layer of foam padding during the material manufacturing process. To make the headliner in your LR (or most any vehicle that has a cloth headliner) the foam padding side of the material is glued to a styrofoam headliner board that is formed in the shape of your Disco (either with or without sunroofs and rear air). Over time, the foam "dry rots" (crumbles and falls apart) and gravity pulls the material away from the foam thus resulting in a sagging headliner. The staples and thumbtacks are a common cure to this problem and are really just a band-aid. The rest of the headliner will continue to fall down...I've seen headliners flapping in the breeze on old cars going down the road! As noted in a prior post, the only way to repair this properly is remove and replace the headliner material. I've seen the process done many times (not on a LR, but its the same) and you basically have to remove ALL of the interior trim that touches and supports the headliner and completely remove the headliner styrofoam board from the vehicle. Next you peel off the old headliner material and then LIGHTLY (remember, this is styrofoam you are working with) scrub off the dry rotted foam with your hand and a medium/light duty plastic bristle brush. Once the headliner foam board is clean of the old foam you use contact cement (the 3M Super 77 noted above is perfect) to attach the new headliner material. Reapplying the material w/ glue to the foam side and properly placing it on the headliner board is a much easier job with 2 people. You should glue it back on a little bit at a time and smooth it out as you go (don't try to do the whole thing at once). If you damage the styrofoam board (crack it) just use some duct tape to repair it. The dealer quoted me close to $1000 to repair & replace the headliner. A local automotive upholstery shop quoted me $395. I purchased the correct color matching headliner material for my '97 from the same automotive upholstery shop for ~$55 and purchased the 3M Super 77 from Home Depot for ~$7. If you order the material, you'll need to cut out a swatch of the original material from a place that doesn't have faded material to get a good color match. You'll also need to specify material that comes in over 5' widths and I ordered 4 yards (12 feet) long to make sure I had enough material. I would also advise using a material with a 0.25" foam backing...it costs a little more but is more forgiving of errors and imperfections (read: cracked stryofoam and/or foam bits that aren't completely removed) on the completed headliner. I plan to do this in the next couple of weeks when I can get enough time to remove and replace the headliner. If you've never seen or done this process before, its not hard but time consuming and you have to be careful if you want to do the job right and make it look factory original. I'll try and take some digital pictures and submit to Discoweb to place in the "tech" section. | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 124 Registered: 03-2003 |
So how easy would it be to rig some sort of plywood painted with spray-in bedliner for a roof? | ||
| Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 27 Registered: 05-2003 |
Seems like we're all in the same boat and that the best solution is to remove the whole thing-like mentioned above although it sounds like quite a project. Drew, it would be very helpful if you could get pictures once you get around to doing it. I need to do something because the space in my LR is slowly shrinking to the size of a honda. But at the same time I would like it to look original. If I get up the nerve/time to try it I'll let you guys know. Thanks for all the input and hopefully we can come up with some solution. | ||
| Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 28 Registered: 05-2003 |
Drew-just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly-there is a styrofoam board in the shape of the roof that is removable? If so, how difficult is it to remove and how fragile is it? | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 17 Registered: 05-2003 |
Federico, Yes, behind the headliner fabric should be a molded board that conforms to the shape of the roof. The trim pieces (front sun shades, interior lights, rear map pockets, plastic window trim pieces, etc.) all work in conjunction to support the weight of the board that has the headliner material glued to it. In my experience, these headliner boards/panels were made from a styrofoam type material (my experience is mainly with American, German and Japanese cars). Now, the English may have used a different board material (afterall, they use Lucas electricals for crying out loud!) but I really doubt it and the posts above seem to support that as the people stated that they used pushpins and staples which would stick in the headliner very easily and is a common temporary fix I've seen many times. Based on the fact that my '97 has never seen the inside of a garage it doesn't suprise me that my headliner is falling down (primarily in the sections where the sunroofs would have been located) and that my plastic components are faded and somewhat brittle. Therefore, I would be VERY CAREFUL when removing the headliner. Don't bend it too much or the board could snap, crack or have a permanent crease in it. I'd fold the rear seats flat, remove the rear cargo cover, and expect to pull the headliner out backwards through the rear door. You literally have to remove everything that touches the ceiling panel and you may even have to remove adjacent trim panels. I really need a LR manual to see how to properly pop off all the plastic trim panels without breaking the retaining brackets on the backside of each trim panel....if you mess-up/break these panels you are really screwed and will have to track down new/used replacements in order to hold up the headliner again. When removing and re-installing the headliner, it's best to have another person to assist as you don't want to stress or crack the styrofoam board. While I've never heard of anyone using plywood, I guess anything is possible. But, I've seen professional restoration shops manufacture plastic/fiberglass molds and reproduce headliner boards for antique cars that can't get replacement headliner boards anymore. The only reason I know all this because I worked in an auto upholstery and accessories shop for a while when I was in college. This is the ONLY way to properly do the job. Anything else will likely look like a hack job. I hate having to do it because it's such a PITA (why do you think it costs between $400-1000?), but it will look so much better when done. Just make sure you stick with the a color that replicates the OEM fabric color or else you'll find yourself with trim panels that don't match or you'll have to repaint all the plastic interior parts to match. I have a '97 willow green on tan SD7...the headliner is an even lighter shade of a sand/taupe color. I ordered 4 yards of headliner material #PH2037 from Carolina Restyling and Upholstery (704.347.5263) in Charlotte for $65. No matter what color interior you have you are best to color match it against a local upholstery shop's headliner material books which have 100's of colors. Also, Hancock Fabrics carries some headliner material but the color selection is very limited and the quality is inferior to automotive upholstery shop product lines (they don't want to have to do the job twice). I'll post again after I've pulled the headliner out... | ||
| Jay Hobbs (Jayxd) Member Username: Jayxd Post Number: 147 Registered: 03-2002 |
I like my $9 solution. Found these headliner tacks at Pep Boys and although they are black work really well. You kind of push them into the headliner then screw them down. | ||
| ken knebusch (Charlotterover) Member Username: Charlotterover Post Number: 170 Registered: 02-2002 |
drew, are you in charlotte? if you are going to do this to yours, i would be more than happy to help you with it. that would sure help me in doing mine when it came time. ken | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 433 Registered: 08-2002 |
From experience with other cars and the disco I believe that one of the culprits with sagging headliners is how often and what people clean them with since this will break down the adhesive and foam. I have never cleaned my headliner and it is still attached very well. | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 129 Registered: 03-2003 |
I've never cleaned mine either, but it's still sagging. | ||
| ken knebusch (Charlotterover) Member Username: Charlotterover Post Number: 171 Registered: 02-2002 |
never cleaned mine | ||
| James Nyazai (Nyazai) New Member Username: Nyazai Post Number: 9 Registered: 06-2003 |
Oh bollocks, I just steam-cleaned mine, to get the little blighter's finger prints off! Oh well, at least I won't freak out when something touches me softly the top of my head... | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 18 Registered: 05-2003 |
All: Cleaning it w/ a dry vacuum doesn't hurt, but scrubbing harshly or steam cleaning could effect the glue. Clean lightly and only where necessary. Ken: Do you have a Disco workshop manual? If not, I think my neighbor does (he owns 2 Discos) and I'd like to review it before pulling the trim panels. There are specific screw-driver types of tools that can be used to pull panels on some cars and I might invest in this tool (~$10) to ensure I don't break panel clips. If you'd like to help, I'd appreciate the assistance. I'm on Lake Norman so it would be a little bit of a drive for you b/c I have all the tools I might need here in the garage. If it goes quickly enough (which nothing ever does) we could do 2 in one day (if you have the headliner material you need). | ||
| ken knebusch (Charlotterover) Member Username: Charlotterover Post Number: 172 Registered: 02-2002 |
i have the lr workshop manual. i don't mind driving up there. i don't have any of the material yet though. i will order it. i am sending you an email. ken | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 19 Registered: 05-2003 |
All: Well, I sliced open the sagging headliner and *suprise* the headliner board is made from a thin fiberglass sheet. While its stronger than the styrofoam boards I've seen in the past (primarily used on American cars, but Japanese and German cars used the styro too) it's possible to break or crack it so be careful. Ken: The Workshop Manual will really help identify those hidden fasteners on the backside of the trim panels. But, I may not need the panel tool afterall if the plastic fasteners are all visible from the front of the panel. If we get together over the weekend to replace the headliners, we can document it and take some digital photos. My Disco doesn't have sunroofs so that actually makes the job a little easier. On another note, I'm even considering adding some insulation to the top side of the headliner between the headliner board and the metal roof in the dead air space between the two. The insulation is a jute felt product that is sandwiched between 2 reflective sheets of aluminum fabric and is primary for the additional heat/cool/noise insulating value. You can purchase the material from Summit Racing ($25 per roll) and I just happen to have some here so we can try that out too. | ||
| Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 29 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks for the advice, Drew. If you get a chance to take some pictures that would be very helpful. I'm going to start looking into the replacement headliner and plan on starting sometime soon. All the information has been really helpful and look forward to your results. | ||
| ken knebusch (Charlotterover) Member Username: Charlotterover Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2002 |
Drew, sent you an email. Didn't see this post until after I did. Sounds good! Ken | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2003 |
So what do you guys think about the plywood/ spray-in bedliner idea? Good idea or a waste of time? | ||
| Jeremy Katka (Jkatka) Senior Member Username: Jkatka Post Number: 262 Registered: 02-2002 |
plywood might be a bad idea. You are going to loose alot of headroom unless you are planning on doing alot of cutting. I think that the headliner absorbs alot of noise too. I think in the same time you spend building the new headliner you could just remove your old one, strip it and put on new material. | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 160 Registered: 03-2003 |
Yeah, true...but I'm trying to get away from the whole "material" thing. I don't want any fabric in the interior at all. I am planning on doing away with the carpeting and doing it in spray-in bedliner, and was pondering over the headliner as well. I am starting to think, though, that the headliner is better off as-is. | ||
| Jeremy Katka (Jkatka) Senior Member Username: Jkatka Post Number: 263 Registered: 02-2002 |
maybe ballistic nylon or some man made material or something like that? Wont stain and is pretty tough I mean it acts as padding when you go over big bumps ;) JK | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 531 Registered: 02-2003 |
zach. i don't know if you have the funds. but the right way to do this is to get a vinyl material with a porous back that can be properly glue to the headliner backing. some places sell a "marine" headliner fabric that is similar to this only it has perforated holes in it to let it breathe. the plywood would be so ridiculously rigged that i cannot condone that on any vehicle in any condition, actually its so stupid that i'll just assume you are joking. | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 179 Registered: 03-2003 |
if you only knew... | ||
| mark gomez (Mark) New Member Username: Mark Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2003 |
How about peeling off the material and scrapping away as much of the crumbling foam as possible and spraying it with some sort of textured paint? Hardware stores usually have tan/stone colored paint that has a stone-like texture to it. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 538 Registered: 02-2003 |
mark, thats the best cheap bastard idea i've heard yet for this project. hell i might have to try that this weekend. i will paint the side you dont see on my spare headliner to see if it sticks. if it looks like shit then i have not harmed the side you see. rd | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 199 Registered: 03-2003 |
Wouldn't the spray eat up the foam? | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2003 |
Yes, that is a different approach to getting the job done. In addition to the hardware store paints, Eastwood makes several "trunk lining" spray paints that come in a rattle can that look decent but are black base paint. If you do this, in order to get even coverage and a decent look I wouldn't use a spray can. The best finish would probably require that you shoot multiple coats and probably use an air compressor running a spray gun. If you clean off any excess foam it should stick OK. Actually, here's where Zach's idea might work. Take the fiberglass board out and have Line-X applied directly to it. It would definately have an industrial all-purpose look to it. However, my concerns are: 1. If you are painting (or Line-X) the fiberglass board, how long will your Disco smell like new paint? But, some of you might enjoy these kinds of side effects generated from the paint and Line-X off gassing... 2. If you don't prep the fiberglass right, in little to no time you'll have snow falling (paint flaking off) inside your Disco and create a huge mess Let us know how it turns out...I'm going fabric. | ||
| Rob Davison (Pokerob) Senior Member Username: Pokerob Post Number: 1754 Registered: 02-2002 |
yeha, you'dd need to take the fabric off fand scrub the foam. that's why testing the opposite side with paint product would work. it doesn't have any foam on it. the test of time would be the true test. rd | ||
| DARRELL (Puppywhopper) New Member Username: Puppywhopper Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2003 |
seedy apholstry shop and 50 bucks did mine with new material..looks factory...tookem 30 minutes..2 years ago | ||
| Brian Goodner (Bluewater) Member Username: Bluewater Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2003 |
that headliner is expensive and a hassle to instal, if your gonna take it out i wouldn't put the same stuff back in...but thats just me | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 240 Registered: 03-2003 |
That's the thing...there's really not much else to put up there. And it's not like you can just leave it bare...maybe I'll give the Line-X boys a shout next week. | ||
| Brian Goodner (Bluewater) Member Username: Bluewater Post Number: 157 Registered: 03-2003 |
yea i hear ya...haha you love that bedliner | ||
| Greg French (Gregfrench) Senior Member Username: Gregfrench Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just for the record, if you look up toward the beginning the paint idea was mine. Now give me my free hood decal! | ||
| Brian Goodner (Bluewater) Member Username: Bluewater Post Number: 169 Registered: 03-2003 |
yep you're rite, i would love to give you a decal but i don't even have one for myself | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) Senior Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 258 Registered: 03-2003 |
black the hood out with paint (or spray-in bedliner like I did). | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2003 |
Worked on the headliner this weekend. The headliner board is actually a very thin layer of foam sandwiched between two pieces of very thin fiberglass. It's not much sturdier than styrofoam. Forget applying bedliner as it's too weak to support that much weight and I really wouldn't recommend painting it as it is too flexible. It's not hard to remove and then cover the roof area behind it with Line-X and then just dont replace the headliner afterwards. In addition I did apply some additional insulation to the area between the headliner and roof. It's the stuff I noted above (jute felt sandwiched between two layers of foil. Cut it to fit and glued and taped (foil HVAC tape) it in place. Now, the headliner material. What a PITA! I've seen headliners installed 100's of times and done a few myself. But, the tall "safari" roof makes installing headliner material really tough! I thought w/out sunroof it would be easier but was actually harder. The headliner board has so many deep angles and tight curves that you really should let someone who is **experienced** at installing headliners apply the fabric to the board. If the hedliner board was like 90% of the other cars on the road it would just have slight curvature and be real easy to apply. You can try it yourself, but unless you're an experienced upholstery person I'd bet that when you're done it would look like some hack job. So, I'll see if a local upholstery shop can apply the fabric for me and give me a discount for prepping the headliner board and doing all the remove and replacement of the trim panels. I'll let you guys know how it ends up looking... | ||
| Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 32 Registered: 05-2003 |
Drew- how did you manage to remove the front panels (along the windshield)? I've been looking but can't find any screws or any other way to remove them. Are the panels difficult to remove in general? Fragile? I'm hoping to do mine this weekend. Thanks | ||
| Drew Porta (Ncrover) New Member Username: Ncrover Post Number: 22 Registered: 05-2003 |
The plastic panels along the front winshield ("a" pillars) are held in place by 3 clips (one at the top and one above the speaker and another below the speaker). I found these are the most fragile of all the plastic clips that you will have to remove to pull the headliner...I broke each of the clips located at the top of these panels. If you are pulling ANY of the panels, I highly recommend that you stop by Advance/NAPA/PepBoys/Autozone and pick up an interior panel pulling tool. It looks like a screwdriver type tool, except that it has a "Y" shaped tip on the end opposite the handle. Total cost of tool is less than $7. If I had not purchased this cheap tool, there is NO DOUBT in my mind that other panel clips would have been broken too. Also, I recommend reading throught the headliner and trim panel sections of the Workshop Manual. Many thans to Ken K. for "lending" me his Workshop Manual...without this I would have broken some trim panels for sure. Be aware that you cannot remove the rear map pockets and rear seat lights that are attached to the headliner without removing the headliner first - these are secured with a nut from the backside. On a related note, for those who want to remove the stock luggage racks on a D1, you'll need to drop the headliner to access the bolts securing the luggage racks. Regarding the headliner, I've called several local shops and explained that I've removed all interior trim, removed the headliner board, pulled off the fabric, and prepped the headliner board to be recovered (scrubbed off all the "dead" foam) and that all I need for the upholstery shop to do is recover the headliner board and that I would drop it off to them for recovering. The savings for doing all this prep work = $320 savings as I am now being quoted $75 just to recover the board. It took me about 2.5 - 3 hours by myself to carefully remove all the trim, prep the board for recovering, and re-install the bare headliner board in my Disco. Now that I know how, I could probably do it again in <45 minutes. If you purchase or have the shop order material for you, they MUST order material that is at least 60" wide as the headliner measures ~54" across. (FYI: For the "do-it-yourself" types, this is where you can get into trouble while you're gluing the new headliner fabric as you only have a 3" margin of error (60"-54"=6"/2=3") to be off on either side with the fabric. It's easy to lay it out on the board with this much overlap on each side, but much harder to be busy gluing it down and try and maintain that 3" overlap. | ||
| Federico (Fede) New Member Username: Fede Post Number: 33 Registered: 05-2003 |
Drew-thanks so much for the info; did you get any pictures? |
