| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1006 Registered: 09-2002 |
hey guys....I need a real quick compass refresher course. Especially relating to paces. Any help? | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 118 Registered: 03-2003 |
Measure out 100 meters Begin at one end, step off with your left first. Each time your left foot hits the ground, count. Repeat three times, take the average. Average is your 100 meter pace count. Best done on an ungulating (sp) course. Add 10% for uphill. Subtract 10% for downhill. Stacey | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1007 Registered: 09-2002 |
Very good Stacey, thank you. I will not have time to pace off today but I am thinking that 115 paces is what I used to do, does this sound at all plausable? How many meters in one mile? | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2003 |
Brian, 115 is to high. My pace count is 67. Remember you only count your "LEFT". Not both your left and right. OK when dealing with maps only Meters and Kilometers,(Klick)=1000 meters. If you need to figure this out here is a formula of sorts, I think/could be wrong. 1 mile = 1760 yards and 12 yards = about 10 meters. So roughly speaking 1 Mile = 1466.66 M. I think that is right. Anyone else know for sure? I am just flying of of an old slow mind. Stacey | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1008 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ok...I must be aroun 58 paces then. I must be remembering my steps...hell, it's been 8 years since I did any land nav. This is very helpfull info. I have a little mini-test on this today and for the life of me I couldn't remember what to count. And compass use, refrsher onn that? | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2003 |
Brian, You are in the Denver area, right? Find out the standard deviation from magnetic north. It should be clearly stated on the bottom of the map. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1010 Registered: 09-2002 |
trouble now....I don't have a map here. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2003 |
OK, ok. I will do my best. If I get this wrong I hope that somebody corrects me in a gentle DWEB manner. LOL. The compass is going to be pointing to magnetic north which is a giant ore deposit in Greenland some where. This deposit is east of true North. So the further west you go the more degrees that must be subtracted from the compass when you read it to get a real reading of where you are at. When you look at the compass and you are headed at say 255, you are really at; 255 - the deviation. Do you follow this. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1011 Registered: 09-2002 |
so far so good | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 122 Registered: 03-2003 |
So, once you understand that it is a matter of shooting an azmuth and keeping a pace count. Check the terrain against the map. Read thru this it may do abetter job than I and come back. Go to the contents menu on the left. #9 Navigation and Equipment. http://www.survivaliq.com/navigation/training-strategy.htm | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1012 Registered: 09-2002 |
Excellent work. Thanks Stacy, that is exactly what I needed. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2003 |
Brian, Hey I made one mistake. I had it right the first time but change it before I posted. INSTEAD OF SUBTRACTING YOU MUST ADD. sorry. Please see this for a clear instruction: http://www.survivaliq.com/navigation/direction_par6.htm | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 124 Registered: 03-2003 |
Damn it has been a long time. I was at Benning, and there was no deviation/declination. Made every thing so easy. Sorry again about the mistake. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1013 Registered: 09-2002 |
In about 2 hrs I am going to have to do a little land nav course. I could be screwed if I have to figure out the grid asmuth. Oh well, at least I might look like I know whatg I am doing. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1014 Registered: 09-2002 |
ok...my standard deviation is about 13 deg. Now what do I do? | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2003 |
If you can, set the deviation on the compass. That way when you set you bezel to N, it is to true north - what the maps are designed for. If you don't have the ability to set the standard deviation, then you'll have to remember to add or subtract 13 deg from your bearing you decide to take. To take a bearing, point the compass at the object in the distance (if you have a mirror, put it at 45 degrees to the base of the compass so you can see the entire needle in the mirror, and at the top of the mirror should be a notch - put the object in the notch). Now, when you move the bezel, there should also be a red line or arrow or something that moves with the bezel. Align that with the needle by moving the bezel when your looking at the object and then read the number at the opposite end of you (closest to the mirror). That is your bearing. Your back-bearing or back-azmuth is 180 degrees the opposite direction. | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 17 Registered: 05-2003 |
Just a note, remember to remove anything that's magnetic from your hand, like a watch. It can drastically throw you off. If you have a radio/CB/FRS, make sure to keep it away as well, some of the speakers in the radios have strong magnets. Don't take bearing near a car or some other large metal object - which means, don't use a car hood as a table. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 125 Registered: 03-2003 |
Just add that to your your azimuth. say you are pointing at 255, add 13 = 268 268 is where you are really going. Shoot your Azimuth, pick out an object a few hundred meters inline with your azimuth and move out counting a pace. Repeat until you reach your mark. If it is night land nav, alternate holding compass from your right to your left hand, every hundred meters or so. Do you remember how to measure distance on a map? | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 18 Registered: 05-2003 |
When you get a map, and you need to find a bearing to an object. Orient the map to north, so that what your looking at relates to your position, i.e. going right on the map and looking east will be the same. Draw a line from where you are to where you want to go. Once there, take the compass and orient so that its set to north. Put the center of the compass - where the needle pivots on the spot your standing on, on the map. Make sure that the compass edge is not crooked in comparison to the map, this is important. If you need to make some vertical lines on the map so that when you put the compass on it, you can tell if you've put it on crooked. So, with the pivot where your standing, and the compass properly aligned to the map, find where the line you drew to the destination point from where you are crosses the bezel and read that number. That number is your bearing. Once you have that, write it down somewhere, and then turn your bezel so that at the top of the bezel (closest to the mirror), it reads the number you have. Keep "red fred in the shed", by keeping the needle in alignment to the red arrow/line on the bezel. | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 141 Registered: 11-2002 |
All good, sound advise. If you are indeed in the Denver area I am going to assume your land nav will be in the mountains. If so, I strongly caution you on even using a pace count. Pace counts are only really good for relatively flat ground where you are not traveling a great distance but need to be fairly accurate. In the mountains it is much more effective, both mentally and physically to use terrain association (TA)and forget pace counting. It will only get you lost in the mountains. To learn about TA look on the web or go to an outdoors store and find stuff on orienteering. It is actually a sport and is the same as TA (terrain association is the technical tern while orienteering is the sport). | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 19 Registered: 05-2003 |
If you have a buddy, you can use a technique we call leap-frogging. Its extremely accurate, abet time consuming. To do this, figure out what bearing you need to go on. Once you have that, have your buddy go out on that bearing. When they get almost out of earshot and you can still see them, most likely they've wandered a bit from the line, tell them to move left or right so that they're exactly at the bearing you need them to be at. Once they're exactly where you want them, tell them to not move. When you get there, stand EXACTLY where they were standing, and tell them to continue on the bearing again. Continue this until you reach the destination. If there is heavy brush, have your buddy cary a stick with some flagging tape or something bright, that way they can go further, or if its heavy brush - you can still see them. If you use this technique, make sure to be the runner or the person taking the bearings from the begining to the end of the destination. Switch off if you have multiple destination spots if you like. | ||
| Britt Easterly (Britt) Member Username: Britt Post Number: 55 Registered: 09-2002 |
Brian, actually you are probably 20 dergress off because here in Oregon I'm 18 for sure. Just remember if your using a military grid. count your northen first then your eastern and only use a six number count. That way you will be with in 50 meters; unless your calling in a fire mission. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2003 |
Brian, I hope that we hear from you again. I do not want to read a book by Jon Krakauer called "Into the Land Nav Course". | ||
| Grant Lawson (Grant) Member Username: Grant Post Number: 77 Registered: 01-2003 |
Interesting advice flying around here..... some corrections/additions. a six figure mil grid ref creates a 100m square,This MAY put you within 50 M do not trust mil grid on CDN maps if using GPS as ref. It is screwed up unless you have a military base map. Mil grid refs are read EASTINGs first , then Northings. Read the numbers along the bottom first(or top) then the sides (you go into the house and then up the stairs) you add the variation if the annual change is Increasing, and subtact if it is decreasing, AND 13 degrees variation that someone mentioned seems like a huge variation, check your data. remmber there are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in a degree!! but then I am not sure where you are... Check out www.nrcan.gc.ca/main.html and go to maps 101 practise doesn't make perfect, perfect practise makes perfect!! good luck and have fun Swift and Bold | ||
| Britt Easterly (Britt) Member Username: Britt Post Number: 56 Registered: 09-2002 |
Grant, Now that I look at what I wrote you are correct; it is EASTINGS first then the NORTHINGS. | ||
| Garth Petch (Garth) New Member Username: Garth Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2003 |
The conversion factor from kilometres to miles is 0.62...a mile is approx 1.6 km, a metre is a bit over 39 inches, a kilometre is about 1080 yds. I have a vague recollection of high school geography, (and its been almost 30 years ago)that magnetic lines are probably created by convection currents within the earth's core. Magnetic north is the deviation from true north, and is constantly moving. A good map will show you true north, magnetic deviation, the year that it was measured, and the rate of movement per year. Garth | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1018 Registered: 09-2002 |
Thanks Guys. No book to be written on my fate. Very good information and it is interesting enough that I might study this a bit more. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 127 Registered: 03-2003 |
When Armegedon comes there is not going to be any GPS systems for use. Stock up on maps and perfect those skills. LOL Stacey | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 335 Registered: 02-2002 |
brian.. is this for trek?? | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1021 Registered: 09-2002 |
Hey Gil....yeah it was for trek (internal tryout). I botched it up real good so I didn't qualify. We had a bit of a run and I missed a turn and ran an extra mile, so I lost. Oh-well. | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 336 Registered: 02-2002 |
dont feel bad.. treks not all that its cracked up to be. waking up at 4 am and running thru the woods with compasses until 9 pm isnt all that cool.  the sway came, no prob with the hardware.. thanks man. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1022 Registered: 09-2002 |
good....is it on yet so you can make your trip out west with a happy wife? | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 337 Registered: 02-2002 |
its back on.. i really dont notice much of a difference, but at least now she doesnt refuse to drive it. i wasnt ready to cover 12k+ miles as the solo driver.. ya gotta keep em happy | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 539 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hell yes, talk of preparing for Armageddon, gotta love it. rd | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1025 Registered: 09-2002 |
Yes, I have been prepairing for the day, hence the 35x12.50 and lockers. I want to be able to drive over the devil. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 128 Registered: 03-2003 |
Rob, After the initial EMP. You will not be able to use this. http://www.liquidation.com/auction/view?id=221038 | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1026 Registered: 09-2002 |
hehe....4 interchangable heads and the lady is using it on her neck. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2276 Registered: 02-2002 |
Uh....... No comment on actual use of a compass, because there are endless variations on methodologies, you just have to find what works for you.... However, Stacey, I just must ask..... The compass is going to be pointing to magnetic north which is a giant ore deposit in Greenland some where. Uh....... you don't REALLY believe that, do you??? -L | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 129 Registered: 03-2003 |
Leslie, That is something that I recall being told during land nav insrtuction years ago. I do not mind being properly educated as to why magnetic north is different. So if you want, fire away. Stacey | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 163 Registered: 01-2003 |
Just keep in mind, that every couple of million years, the magnetic poles reverse. Nobody knows exactly how this works, we just know it does. Oh, and according to the geoplogical record, we should be about due for a reversal. Leslie - Actually the giant ore deposit is a bit deeper than Greenland. -Not a geologist, but I played one in college | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2003 |
Reed, Great, so you are telling me that we are all going to have to learn this stuff all over again. Stacey | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 545 Registered: 02-2003 |
i'll just turn on the GPS in a million years and use that. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1041 Registered: 09-2002 |
How will the poles reverse? Will the whole world do a flip? | ||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 659 Registered: 02-2002 |
Would our modern day rovers then be "positive earth ground" like the series trucks? Glenn | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 548 Registered: 02-2003 |
i dont know about the poles changing but germans can be shifty... | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1043 Registered: 09-2002 |
hehe..and don't forget the french | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2277 Registered: 02-2002 |
Lol, yes, Reed, quite a bit deeper. Stacey, A compass needle swings to orient itself with the Earth's magnetic field's orientation. Essentially, the earth is a large "electromagnet". The Earth's core has two parts: it has a solid inner core of mostly iron and nickel, and then a molten outer core, of similar composition. (The temperature is hot enough for all of it to be melted at atmospheric pressure; the compressional force of the mantle and outer core are great enough that the inner core is under enough pressure to be solid, even at those high temperatures.) The inner core spins a little faster than the outer core. By having the superheated metal core spinning within the liquid core, you generate a magnetic field, much the same way you can spin a magnet within a wire coil and generate electical current. The orientation of the magnetic pole is roughly equivelent to the rotational axis of the Earth, though you're right, it is close to Greenland/ Baffin Island, in the Arctic Ocean. ( http://www.geolab.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/northpole_e.shtml) The magnetic pole varies its orientation with regard to the rotational axis, thus, the magnetic north pole wanders around... you can call your local airport and get a current magnetic deviation for your location. Brian, Every so often, the magnetic field reduces in strength, flips, then strengthens back, making the polar orientation to be opposite of what it currently is. As molten lava cools into rock, the traces of iron particles within the rock, oriented in line with the magnetic field, become locked into that orientation. Thus, you can geochemically date the rock, measure the orientation of the crystals within, and calculate the position of the Earth's magnetic field over time... or rather, the position of that rock with regard to the pole, at that time. Really useful for figuring out how the plates have moved... it was actually a part of developing the final piece of the puzzle taking the hypothesis of continental drift and turning it into the theory of plate tectonics.... looking at how the seafloor of the Atlantic has grown over time since Pangea broke up. -L | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2003 |
Leslie, Thanks. I was at least in the 10% corrcet range. :-) Stacey | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2003 |
If you look at really old maps, and you look at their standard deviation, newer maps will have a different standard deviation becuase of the slight change in where the compasses orient to based on what Leslie said. | ||
| Eddie (Honu) Member Username: Honu Post Number: 126 Registered: 01-2003 |
get a "how to" compass book for around 3 dollars....or get yourself a boyscout manual..... |
