| Author | Message | ||
     Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 299 Registered: 01-2003 |
First the video was great, finally watched it and was really impressed by the quality of the footage and the editing. My question is in the video Axel points out the d110 and one of the discos are 5 speeds. The point seemed to me that the 5 speeds had more problems offroad. Why? Is it because of the possiblity of coming out of gear? The gearing? Clutch slip? | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 339 Registered: 02-2002 |
do you have 3 feet??  | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 301 Registered: 01-2003 |
I have only wheeled with a AT, so sorry no experience with using the clutch offroad. What about heel and toe shifting? I guess you can't put the truck in a higher gear and not stall it? Some say I have 3 legs, but I'm not trying to brag here ... | ||
| Nathan Hindman (Nathanh) Member Username: Nathanh Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2002 |
Basically, when rock crawling or going over steep/large/challenging obstacles, a manual gear box is a little bit more difficult to control. If starting from a standstill, uphill, you suddenly have a third pedal to control. You have to keep modulating the clutch while trying to keep your truck from rolling backwards or stalling out. It's not that it can't be done, it's just a bit more challenging and requires a bit more finesse than with an autobox. Whereas with an auto, it's a much easier process. Remember when you first learned to drive a stick shift and your dad tought you how to use the clutch by making you start from a stand still on an uphill road? Think that, with a VW sized rock in your way. ;-) Thanks, Nathan Hindman http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 340 Registered: 02-2002 |
ive found the nastiest aspect of wheeling with a 5 speed is long loose hill climbs where a gear change is required. where as an auto box will upshift seamlessly, as soon as you depress the clutch in a manual forward momentum tends to cease... unless you can do it really quick (the disco has a long throw) other than that its just a matter of getting used to the truck and the different reactions of it. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 302 Registered: 01-2003 |
What about in a smaller lighter truck, like a sammy or a jeep or maybe a series LR? The only other vehicle I have really been a driver on harder offroad terrain was an auto wrangler. I've had manual 4x4's offroad, just not in that hard of terrain. Just wondering as I have started to contemplate getting a series truck to wheel with. (i.e. a manual transmittion series II or IIa) | ||
| Phil (Discoanywhere) New Member Username: Discoanywhere Post Number: 22 Registered: 06-2003 |
I had a nice jeep once it was a 3 speed and almost everytime I got stuck in the mud it was from that shift down or up that was needed, that slight pause was just enuf for the mud man to grab hold and the battle was on! I understand some who love a standard for the precise choice of gearing (like maybe the rock guys? I'm in mud and bush trail territory, so I'm not familiar with Rock Crawlers.) ...but I like to sit back and let the truck do most of the work....I think its mostly personal preference. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 445 Registered: 08-2002 |
No matter what vehicle you use a manual transmission is MUCH (not a little) harder to work with. of course this is really only an issue are harder stuff. Easy stuff is always easy (IMHO). Add to this the fact that with auto it is very easy to use the dual footed technique (one foot on the gas one on the brake) and I believe that a auto is a much better choice for offroading (assuming that you do not NEED the additional power from a manual). | ||
| Mike Dougherty (Mikedougherty) New Member Username: Mikedougherty Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2003 |
Andy, I like you, am contemplating an auto vs. manual transmission for an off road vehicle. I posted a message on the Range Rover board trying to get some information (Manual conversion), but haven't received a lot of replies. Since my other hobbie is racing I am learning how to heel-toe shift as you mention. Which means I feel confident that I can hold the vehicle in place while releasing the clutch with the same effort as those with an auto. So the two-footed argument isn't as compelling as some seem to think. If there is no advantage, and it is simply a matter of personal preference as Phil suggests then I (we?) have access to a larger market of vehicles. However, if the manual does offer significant advantages then I would rather spend the extra time and effort now while I am still shopping, than be frusterated on the trail because I got the wrong transmission. So the real question I am wondering is: Will someone like myself that is used to a manual and rather skilled with it be satisfied with an auto off-road? And, will the same person, having a manual on a trail be at distinct disadvantage? On the same topic, I have been very disappointed with the auto transmissions I have used in the past. They shift when I don't want them to, or don't shift when I want them to. Is the Land Rover auto better in this regard? I.e. if I shove the lever into first will it shift into first even if that means the engine will redline? Will it stay in the gear I select even if I run it up to redline and leave it there for a period of time? | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 307 Registered: 01-2003 |
It will stay where you put it till she blows, at least on my 95 D1. But on the big canyon climbs here in Utah I am always dropping to 3rd because the it won't shift itself down. It holds the shifts well under acceleration, just seems to me to lack the kickdown. You can adjust the kick down, but it really doesn't help much in my opinon. | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 342 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Since my other hobbie is racing I am learning how to heel-toe shift as you mention. Which means I feel confident that I can hold the vehicle in place while releasing the clutch with the same effort as those with an auto. So the two-footed argument isn't as compelling as some seem to think." there is no way this can be done with the "same effort" as an auto. i driven manuals since i was 16, ive done some autocross and alot of street dragging..(in high school), im fully aware of heel and toeing. Its one thing when you are on flat ground in a relatively controled environment.. ie pavement. Its a whole different story when you stall on a serious incline thats loose and rutted with a steep drop on either side, and you came to rest at a 30 degree angle to the trail and there is a massive boulder in front of you, which is why you stalled in the first place. or how about as you stall on this same hill, and the truck looses power to the brakes and steering.. now you locked up the wheels, your sliding backwards, and you have to re-start and pop the rig into reverse to get engine braking so you can control the descent or else you slide off the side?? that probably wouldnt happen in an auto. Manual experience on road means nothign when comparing to manual use off-road. dont underestimate the effect that adrenaline and nerves have on your driving ability in scenarios like this. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 446 Registered: 08-2002 |
Don't forget that even with the skilled heel/toe shifter (which I used to do in my jeep BTW), you will kill the engine. When this happens on a Disco you will loose steering and brakes. Reason enough to go Auto (IMHO). | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 308 Registered: 01-2003 |
So why are there so many wranglers that are 5 speeds? | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2002 |
In terms of an expedition vehicle, a manual transmission is a lot more bombproof. And there's a lot more limp potential in a manual. An Auto being more competent on a technical section should go without saying. | ||
| Mike Dougherty (Mikedougherty) New Member Username: Mikedougherty Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2003 |
Gil: I think I made it pretty clear in the thread I referred to above that I am a newbie at all this (3 whole off roading outtings). I was also commenting on two footed driving (one foot on the brake and one on the gas) when I said I was confident that I could hold the truck while releasing the clutch. Given my current level of experience I still hold to that. I have not been in the situation you mention, so I can't really say what I would do. But I can say that if I were to take such a trail I would only do so if I felt confident that I could handle what was thrown at me, or suffer the consequences. Also, are you suggesting that if I had an auto in that situation that I would not loose power to the brakes or steering? Or are you suggesting that with an auto I will never have to worry about stalling the car? On one of my outtings I did experience a stalling Disco (not because I mismanaged the throttle, but for other reasons) on a steep hill with a sharp drop off on one side. It was a challenge to get it into a safe location, but doable. Jack: I would like to point out that an "auto being more competent on a technical section" does not go without saying, which is why Andy, and myself are asking these types of questions. Can you ellaborate on why you think this is the case? I will conceed that a manual is not as easy to off-road as an auto. A car with an auto is going to be easier to track. But the driver of that car will also get their @$$ handed to them by a similarly skilled driver in a car with a manual. It takes a little more time and practice to master a manual in any situation (road, track, and possibly even off-road). But in the end it is far more rewarding, at least in my experience. I'm just wondering if that holds true for off-roading. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 450 Registered: 08-2002 |
Why do you say that Mike? Although I really see Jack's point on the expedition vehicle, I really do fail to see why a skilled driver would be so much better with a manual transmission. Especially on where potential to stall the engine is much higher with a manual transmission. The consequences of such a stall could be dangerous on large obstacles, and potential for damage would be increased even on small obstacles. I will not say that there are not people that can drive manuals extremely well, many who are likely much better than me with an auto. However, I have also seen these exact same drivers poised precariously while they have to restart the engine (and I believe that you do loose power to the steering and brakes). I have yet to have my rig stall in a spot like this and using a foot on the brake and a foot on the accelerator gives you a great degree of control. Brian | ||
| Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht) Member Username: Markalbrecht Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'll throw my opinion in the mix. I drove a 5 speed Jeep for almost 10 years and took it off road alot. I enjoyed the control I had with the manual transmission -- both on and off road. There were times when smoothness and tiny variations in speed would be the best approach and this was difficult to do with the manual transmission. Now I have a DII -- the auto tansmission is very easy and smooth but sometimes not as exciting (which is good and bad). The best feature is the quick compression braking of the auto trans which feels like a manual. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Nate Jedinak (Ducati) New Member Username: Ducati Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2002 |
I grew up with manual trannies, and have done some racing in my time... Both autox and road courses. Offroading is a completely different beast. Shots aren't as seamless offroad due to the slight loss of momentum; which others have pointed out above can get you in trouble. But one thing that hasn't been mentioned is autoboxes put power down in a more easy, controlled fashion. It's like slipping the clutch like mad, and having the most precise clutch foot around to modulate the power. No one in their right minds does this with a manual •••••• b/c you toast your clutch and strand your ride. But with an auto you can do it all day long. Add to the traction advantage the control advantage an auto has, and the autoboxes come out on top. One of the only places in the world autos are better than manuals I used to own a 5-speed Wrangler; I think the reason there are so many 5-speed wranglers around is up until 2003, all the slushboxes were crappy ass 3-speeds. They were sluggish, terrible on the road, and not particularly good offroad b/c first gear was too high. 2003 introduced a 4-speed, and rock crawlers were all over it intially (I don't know if it maintained favor, I don't keep up with Jeep stuff much anymore) due to the control factor. I surmise you'll see more and more as time goes on. Racing != offroading | ||
| Mike Dougherty (Mikedougherty) New Member Username: Mikedougherty Post Number: 20 Registered: 01-2003 |
Why do I say what Brian? That a manual is more rewarding? Because in my experience on the road and track the performance gained by a manual far surpases an auto. I know very little about off roading and am asking you all to help me figure it out. My off roading friends that I hang out with are die hard for manuals in thier trucks. And I am a die hard for a manual in my car. So when I began looking into getting an off road truck I immediately elliminated autos. As you can imagine, when I did my searches for Land Rover and manuals there were very few vehicles. It sounds like, even though I am a die hard manual dude, that I will be just as happy (or at least satisfied ) with a Land Rover that has an auto as I would with a manual. Which opens up my potential market a lot. And, even if I end up hating the auto, it's only $6K to convert :D. Sorry Andy, I kind of highjacked your thread, I hope you got your question answered. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 451 Registered: 08-2002 |
You might find that you are more happy with an auto in a Disco. Especially while you are getting into the activity. The only real way is to try both on something that will test control in a few spots, probably would not *have* to be a Disco. Go out with a group of rovers that have both and watch or request to drive. Or likely someone like Bill Burke could let you taste both and you could get some training to boot. | ||
| Mike Dougherty (Mikedougherty) New Member Username: Mikedougherty Post Number: 21 Registered: 01-2003 |
Who is Bill Burke, and why would he let me get a taste for both? | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) Member Username: Norm Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2003 |
Yeah, and everybody knows autoboxes are for sissies. ...and so's yer old man...ptewey!!! ---Norm | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 452 Registered: 08-2002 |
Bill is an ex-camel trophy guy that guides trips around the world (mostly US focusing around CO/UT). He offers many forms of training and has at least a RRC and D90. I know the D90 is manual, not 100% sure on the RRC. A link to Bill Burke/4 wheeling america is in the vendor section. | ||
| Mike Dougherty (Mikedougherty) New Member Username: Mikedougherty Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2003 |
Hey Norm, most of the people posting have been pro-auto. I'd be real interested in hearing your opinion on this matter. Why are autoboxes for sissies? I also don't get the "...and so's yer old man..." comment, what's that in reference to? Brian: thanks I'll check Bill Burke out. | ||
| Greg Tearne (Gooddoggomez) Member Username: Gooddoggomez Post Number: 49 Registered: 02-2003 |
I'm with you, Mike. I think it is more rewarding getting over/through/across something using not only your vehicles abilities, steering control and driving skills but also your own co-ordination as well. I agree that in some situations an auto box easier, but is that why we go out there? I know I enjoy being challenged and a man trans gives you that little bit extra to think about. I don't think you'll ever change anybody's preference, cos it's just one of those personal things. | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) Member Username: Norm Post Number: 65 Registered: 02-2003 |
Aw, yer mudder wears combat boots... I can see you never watched the Bowery Boys on Saturday mornings. My main gripe about automatics it that they're so BORING. Manuals are just so much more fun to drive. The main problem with LR 5-speeds is that the stock low range of the transfer case is not low enough. Give us as true crawler ratio and the 5 speeds will be unstoppable. There are crawler boxes and underdrives available to remedy this shortcoming for a couple $$$$. Besides, I like to be the one who decides what gear I'm driving in at any particular time, even if I am driving down the freeway in 2nd at 5500 rpm. ---Norm | ||
| Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Senior Member Username: Aclarke Post Number: 349 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mike, don't forget that you've been off-roading FOUR times, not three. With me, anyway. We went off-roading in my automatic Jeep Cherokee in Borrego. So there you go, you DO have experience with both! I HATED having an auto in my cherokee. Probably it was mostly because I am just used to a manual so I didn't know how to drive the auto (go ahead and laugh). I found engine braking was inadequate, and I didn't like the loss of control I had with the auto. I was VERY VERY happy to move into my Discovery with a 5spd. For many reasons beyond just the transmission... Phil/discoanywhere, it is interesting to hear about your point of view on why you like an auto, because it's the exact opposite reason of why I like a 5spd! Although I now live in California, I grew up in African mud and Canadian snow and I SO MUCH prefer a 5spd in those conditions. You can easily rock yourself out of a hole, you don't lose power to some torque converter, etc. etc. On the dry and rocky hills of Southern California I'm still a newbie but so far after having owned both transmissions out here I'll still take a manual. But like others have said, in the end it's really about your personal preference. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 312 Registered: 01-2003 |
No worries Mike, I just wanted to start a thread that had an interesting discussion. Not like some threads that recently have turned into which kid wheeler/disco owner is cooler and are boring. My question came from watching the video, I wheel with a auto d1 and wondered what the other side is like. Personally I think trucks, no matter what type, are boring to drive, and an auto just makes life easier in a boring truck. I will never by an auto trans in a car, but owning nissians and toyota trucks with 5 spds was annoying, to much damn work with no reward. So when I got the disco I went auto because of how easy it's to find an auto trans but because I didn't want to deal with shifting. Its not a lazy thing, it's a convence thing. But now I'm hot for a series truck, no auto's there, so I was wondering why a 5 spd might be a liability. My 5 spd offroad experience wasn't on as hard of terrain as I have put my buddies jeep or my disco. My disco is a daily driver / expedition vehicle, but my buddies 98 jeep was a full blown trail vehicle and not ment for the road, so a 3 spd auto trans wasn't an issue on the road. | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 224 Registered: 10-2002 |
I like the manual for more direct link between the throttle and the tires. I also agree with Gil on the scenario described. However, if you imagine climbing a snowy or really muddy hill and not making it and starting to slide backwards, being able to shift into reverse quickly (or even clutching in) can come in handy. But an auto can usually roll backwards even when stuck in D, so I'm not sure how big a deal this really is. In sow it can be an issue sometimes. Additionally, I believe if you gear the truck right, the differences between the trannies become smaller yet. But with very low gears and a manual you can reach a point where you can't get enough wheel speed in reverse to back out of a muddy hole. For mud, snow and hill climbs I try to select the right gear, so that shifting is not necessary thus eliminating that "loss of momentum" issue. The manual also gives me more feel for loosing traction as I start climbing or going throug the mud hole so I can adjust throttle position. With a manual I seem to loose power quicker and then give it gas and nothing happens, so I give more and then the tires brake loose and I loose forward momentum due to spinning out. But maybe I need to practice more with the auto. An auto seems to definitely do better in rocks or where frequent stopping and "inching" forward is necessary. Unless you have superlow gears, of course, then a manual would probably be OK but we're back to possibly being too low for some other stuff. Autos are also sealed better aginst mud. They also need better/more cooling than manuals. There you have it. I won't even get into the "ability to restart" a manual without a starter, and the "I like to think I'm in control (even if I'm not)" advantages of the manual. As those reasons get usually laughed at but they are important to me. In the end, I think you can't win. No matter what setup you have, there will be situations where some other setup would be better. Build it for what you run most and just live with it elsewhere. | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2002 |
I've driven my 95 disco (auto) off road and have wheeled my 73 Series 3 109 more (4 speed manual). From what I've noticed, it seems like the auto box climbs hills better. You can also crawl over rocks slower with an auto. With an auto box, you don't have to think about momentum as much. One nice thing is that you don't stall an auto box. The auto box is also much easier to learn on when off roading (i.e. the basic skills). On the other hand, the manual box (my box) has the optional mountain goat feature. It can usually crawl up anything with a little gas (low gears and limited traction). The low gear also allows me to decend hills without touching any pedals. As said before, with a manual, the truck will let you know that it has bad traction. The Series gearbox is fun, you can rev up the engine and (sort of) slam through the gears. When the engine gets into those upper revs, you can really hear that series 40 flowmaster. The auto doesn't give you the same feeling. When winching, the manual allows me to rev the engine to feed the winch without turning my wheels, but then I can turn my wheels with little effort. On a downside, I need to use momentum more with the manual box. I think it might be a little harder on the truck. On the LRs, it seems as though the auto transmissions are more stout their manual counterparts. There hasn't been a lick of trouble from our 95 disco (the series 3 gearbox needs replacing but it needed to be replaced when I bought it). One very nice feature that the auto transmissions have over manual is the park gear. You can park it and the truck won't roll. My series 3, you have to turn the car off and put it in gear, then put a rock under the tire so it won't roll away. I am very concerned about wearing away my clutch plate. Although I just put a new one in, I don't want to burn it up and have to put another one in (major pain in ass). So thats what I think. Max T. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 232 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm a long-time manual transmission user and prefer it in cars. My Audi S4 has the 6-speed rather than tiptronic, Jetta has a 5-speed and the 914-6 has a 901-type 5-speed (someday maybe I'll convert a 915-type to 916). I've always felt that with proper pedal layout, the use of heel and toe definitely enhances driving experience and allows you to turn faster times than a comparable auto or automanual due to keeping engine in power band and without the usual power losses associated with those trans(however if I ever drove a modern F1 car I'd probably change my mind!!). That said, I prefer auto's for fourwheeling due to one less thing to think about when crawling over rocks and picking a line, balancing on rocks, thinking about where diffs are, if my particular departure angle is going to remove my exhaust or scrape the hell out of my rear bumper. Keeping the torque convertor loaded and using that long-travel gas pedal vs. other foot on brake I believe gives me more control (and I need it!) However if I was crossing the Gobi Desert I would prefer a manual trans for reasons others state above. I would more likely be able to limp along with a broken manual and fix it more easily too. I'm surprised none of the manual fans used the argument my brother-in-law does of using the starter gear to crawl over obstacles (and I have NEVER seen anyone do this!). I can't imagine anyone's starter taking that abuse for long. My 2 cents | ||
| Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 68 Registered: 09-2002 |
I'll put lipstick on this dead horse in a manner of speaking and add my $.02. I've got a 5 speed Disco and previously had a 5 speed Tacoma, not to mention our current 5 speed 02 Jetta and previously our 5 speed Prelude, 300ZX and 91 Jetta so suffice it to say I have a penchant for manual transmissions. That being said I think Greg's comments have merit-I doubt I'll ever willingly buy an auto car (which is really starting to limit my choices to Audi/VW and BMW-Damn!) but in retrospect I will say getting an auto Disco would have been the easier/better choice in the long run. There are a few caveats to this that I use to rationalize why I don't mind my 5 speed and I'll point those out in a moment. Everyone's mentioned the value of the auto over manual and having driven the manual off road I agree wholeheartedly. I have a lot more expierence with the Toyota and the one redeeming feature that truck had was the push-button clutch diabler that allowed you to start the vehicle without the clutch pedal depressed (also nice on mornings when you want to start the truck without actually getting in to warm her up) Since that isn't an option on the Disco I think the previously posted difficulties controlling three pedals make for a good case to go auto. The "feel" of the 5-speed is nice but I think the ease of an automatic is great for concentrating on whats going on outside the vehicle that much more important. This has been discussed at length so I won't draw it out more. The caveats that I have thought of that allow me to be happy with my 5 speed are as follows: My long term plans for my disco have always been to make a expedition-style truck that can take my family and I on long term "off the beaten path" journeys. Trips to/through Alaska and Western Canada are the eventual goal. In that light the so-called "limp" factor is a major plus with a manual. Another major factor is my desire to to the 2.8 Diesel swap eventually and the info I have says that while auto works 5 speed is optimal for that engine (much in the same way that the 300TDI is best with manual) These interelated aspects make my procurement of a 5-speed inconvienient at times but in the long run should help. My most recent off-road journey, the much maligned clutch catastrophe in GWNF some months ago also illustrates an interesting aspect of the 5-speed-I shattered my clutch to pieces (little pieces according to the mechanic who replaced it) but the vehicle still started-meaning that my power steering/brakes still worked and if I hadn't been lucky to be with great fellow Dwebbers I could have winched my way out without draining my Optima yellow-top in the process. That ties back to the limp factor in my mind, while I cannot speak to an auto's ability to restart after catastrophic failure, I know that a manual's weakest point is often the clutch plate or one of the cylinders and with a winch you can always go 100yds at a time toward civilization or cell phone reception. Thats my take, if I get another Disco to supplement the process of turning this one into a diesel expedition truck I will be getting an auto, but that's just my opinion. r- Ray | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just to qualify my earlier statement, my other car is a manual BMW so I'm not ignorant of things like finesse and feel. That said, there's still a reason the bimmer is a manual and the landy has a slush box. With regards to what Ray said, NO alternator is going to keep up with a winch that's working hard. Peak draw on most winches is near or over 400 amps. Just because you've got your engine running doesn't mean you can't kill batteries (esp. just one) with your winch. I'm not exactly sure whether the scenario you presented inferred that you would winch and then recharge or just pull away, but I'm also not sure why you would be able to start a manual when you couldn't start an auto in that particular situation. I do, however, like Ray's point about the eventual diesel swap. | ||
| Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 69 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ahh, Jack reveals that I was unclear in what I discussing. It was more a commentary on a couple of things I found interesting about my truck when that happened. In retrospect I realized that I had I been alone or some other situation that called for it I could have winched-recharged-winched as long as it took (or until I ran out of gas). I didn't mean that it would have been one continous winching session, if not for the reason you mentioned than for the fact that I'm not about to run that damn cable out the next anchor point over and over again in quick succession unless its some kind of contest where I'm going to win $$$$. The other reason why I mentioned it was another thing I was happy about after the fact was that I tore up a clutch vice messing up a transmission and/or transfer case. (If something was going to break I would rather it be the clutch) All that being said I am prone to agree with the commentary mentioned in this post that the auto transmission appears to be a stout piece of engineering and the 5-speed may not be quite as robust-yet another reason why if/when I get another it will be an auto. r- Ray |
