| Author | Message | ||||||
     Jason Walker (Dosed) New Member Username: Dosed Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2003 |
"The DWeb Lounge This is a private area of the BBS. Lounge Members Only." What is this? Nothing in Announcements... | ||||||
| Jim H. (Victor_mature) Member Username: Victor_mature Post Number: 130 Registered: 02-2003 |
It's a (wink, wink) GENTLEMEN'S club (wink, wink). | ||||||
| Ron Carson (Ulster) New Member Username: Ulster Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2003 |
it's a class system is what it is. | ||||||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2003 |
Now I know how the Irish feel. LOL | ||||||
| Kelly Fristoe (Kfristoe) Member Username: Kfristoe Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2002 |
How would one become Lounge qualified? | ||||||
| Jason Walker (Dosed) New Member Username: Dosed Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2003 |
I can sing like Barry M.... heh. Oh well. Cheers! | ||||||
| Jim H. (Victor_mature) Member Username: Victor_mature Post Number: 131 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ron Carson you're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship, a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--wait--help help I'm being repressed. Bloody peasants . . . | ||||||
| Ron Carson (Ulster) New Member Username: Ulster Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2003 |
I was in the middle or reading and replying to the thread on "would you spend 400 grand on a car" when big brother deleted it! where's the justice in that? I tell you, this club thing is merely a place for the snobs to go who think we shouldn't talk about anything besides Rovers. Peasants unite and revolt! | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 190 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hmmmmmm. No firm rules for entry into the Lounge there are. Elusive the Lounge membership is. One of these one should be: http://www.carnegiesciencecenter.org/images/press/starwars/yoda.jpg If not, then aspire to be you must: http://www.medienpraktisch.de/amedienp/mp3-02/weschke_luke.jpg The Dark Side one cannot embrace: http://volt.pol.lublin.pl/~leszekj/darth.jpg Prohibited poseurs are: http://www.comet-cartoons.com/toons/images/www/aboutme/comet-jedi.jpg http://www.vu.union.edu/~fialkao/photos/fairy/jedi.jpg Difficult to enter the Lounge is. Most difficult. Not afraid you are? You will be. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2002 |
You can go quite easily and I can help you... And this aint no god damned club... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 903 Registered: 02-2002 |
wheeez-cough...wheeeez-cough, john turn to the darkside, wheeez-cough, wheeeez-cough. mike w | ||||||
| Evan Price (The_big_daddy) Member Username: The_big_daddy Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2003 |
E-mailed to Curtis ,Perhaps others may want to see Curtis, There's no need to enlist the help of Mr. Lee or anyone else to find me. I don't "hate" Mr. Lee by the way. I do find him narcissistic,arrogant,and pompous at times but I do enjoy reading/listening to someone who knows of what they speak . Simply go to my profile and you'll find my geographic location . My telephone number is listed. I don't think its necessary to remind you there can be criminal and civil repercussions reporting false allegations to law enforcement. Be sure to vote for me at ; www.ratemypoo.com | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 346 Registered: 01-2003 |
Evan ... huh? The past few days on dweb have gotten strange. | ||||||
| Evan Price (The_big_daddy) Member Username: The_big_daddy Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2003 |
Have a look at the expedition exchange bbs/Tour de France . It'll make more sense then.I'm too lazy to cut and paste. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 366 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well at what point do you think we would stop the madness Andy ? Did you think that the bullshit would just take over and we would sit and let it ride ? Time and time again we have warned people and time and time again it turns right back into the same old bullshit. Then they whine when we take any action at all. Make no mistake , you are surrounded here by some really strange bastards. They send us mail whining and they sound like little kids that dont understand what you are telling them... So if you think its strange now you will be amazed at the weeks to come...Bans will be imposed aat the server level acrost the board and in big enough blocks that you go away for good. That will include Email bans that will simply just give you a kicked back mail if you try to mail one of us... We didnt go through all the bullshit building this site and keeping it running to have it taken over by a bunch of morons that think they own it..."Times they are a changin".... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Chris von Czoernig (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 1118 Registered: 07-2002 |
LOL... before you newer members start a revolt or witch hunt, at least know whats going on, which Kyle kind of gives you a quick summery of, just above. This thread, if you read it carefully and all the way through, is a pretty good sumary of the why: ../27/28315.html"#333333"> | Carter Simcoe (Carter) On Probation Username: Carter Post Number: 728 Registered: 04-2002 |
Even I think its a good idea, and there is no way in hell they are ever going to let me in there. | ||||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 641 Registered: 09-2002 |
Funny thing is if everyone is let in, then you really aren't going to end up with anything really different are you? But if you only let certain people in, then you just have a BBS within a BBS and members will be posting in two different places potentially about the same/similar topics because there may be folks who they like talking to not in the private one. There may be less flame wars or BS on one but potential for redundant discussions is possible. I guess time will tell if this works or not. | ||||||
| Carter Simcoe (Carter) On Probation Username: Carter Post Number: 729 Registered: 04-2002 |
I think the lounge is a place to discuss the BBS itself Alan not tech issues and the like. | ||||||
| Dan Watson (Dwatson) On Probation Username: Dwatson Post Number: 58 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well I think the lounge was a bad idea, but voicing that opinion didn’t go well, as Chris’s post points out. I think Kyle has a much better idea, let people on the site and give them a chance, then if they don’t conform ban them. I for one have no problem with a simple warning such further conduct will not be tolerated, but as the link above proves I don’t respond well to “f))k you you moron”. The whole thing with Curt was all in good fun, but then it got kind of ugly. | ||||||
| Zak Ruck (Zak) Senior Member Username: Zak Post Number: 449 Registered: 07-2002 |
I'd have to disagree with you Carter, I'm sure there will be some tech talk in the Lounge. I'm still pretty much a newbe to Rovers, only having one for a year and have only been wheeling 4 or 5 times, but I can't stand some of hte flam wars in the tech section with people tearing each other apart. I can see why some of the "Old" people don't post here much anymore. WIth all the new aholes that just tear you apart for just about every question you ask, or every post involves adding 2003 head lights to a D1 etc. So I'm sure there is some tech talk going on it here. And I'm sure there is some good talk about the rest of us idiots out here. But good for the owners to start trying to change things. If I piss off the three and get banned will I be upset, yes, I value this site quite a bit. I won't sit here and email them stating to F off or beg for mercy. I'd take responsibility for my actions and move on, regretably. So I say again, good for you guys. You own it, so you do what you feel is right. | ||||||
| Mtb (Mtb) New Member Username: Mtb Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2003 |
I think some of you gents need to worry more about other things instead of " Why can't I be in the lounge." Life will be easier. I have been surfing D-web since the beginning and it has changed for the worse, so I understand why the Kyle, Axel & Ho are hoping to change things for the better. Alot of the people on this site think D-Web owes them something because they bought stickers & ect.. Well they don't. So forget about the lounge and act respectful on D-Web, "life without D-web would not be fun." | ||||||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Senior Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 313 Registered: 08-2002 |
I think it was Rodney Dangerfield that said: Any Club that would have me....I don't want to belong. | ||||||
| Dan Watson (Dwatson) On Probation Username: Dwatson Post Number: 59 Registered: 02-2003 |
>then if they don’t conform ban them. I for one have no problem with a simple warning such further conduct will not be tolerated< As I just noticed my member status points out, a good touch I must admit. | ||||||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2355 Registered: 02-2002 |
Todd, The quote is of Groucho Marx, and it is: "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members". FWIW.... -L | ||||||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Senior Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 365 Registered: 05-2002 |
I am not trying to start anything, I just want to say I think it's a good idea. Bout' time we got some lawmen in these parts. Seriously, though, forgetting the petty rivalries, things have gotten out of hand. First and foremost, one needs to look at the origin, this is Axel, Kyle and Ho's thing, it's out there to help people get together and share knowledge, and people are screwing it up. I am not pointing fingers anywhere, it's not my place, but human groups need a leader and I find it quite refreshing that these three are finally cracking down after months of warnings. This might actually save discoweb. Cheers, Kennith | ||||||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 358 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm not quite sure what the "lounge" is, but I agree with the Moderators. I used this site for the first time about 4 years ago for the reason that it was created. I was stupid enough to get into the "soap opera" but lucky enough to get a second chance (thanks). D-web has changed much but the solid backbone is still there. Anyone who thinks that they are being stabbed in the back, just think what you would do without D-web and act accordingly. Just think about it. All the hard work that goes into D-web from these guys benefit them in almost no way. Sorry to get all mushy. | ||||||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Senior Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 314 Registered: 08-2002 |
Thanks for the correct citation Leslie. | ||||||
| Steve Andrews (Sillybus) Senior Member Username: Sillybus Post Number: 264 Registered: 08-2002 |
<$.02> When I started posting on D-web, I immediately got caught up in some hot-headed drama where people were all speaking harshly towards each other. Later on I came to find out that in this one instance, it was all in good fun and wasn't serious. Unfortunately, I have seen much of this and it isn't something "new". Almost any thread of length gets one or two "bashers" with unhelpful comments and criticism. I am a relatively new LR owner and never had the opportunity to work on a vehicle before my first Disco. I ask stupid questions. I ask questions that have been answered before and I've been guilty of not using the search (it helps if you know what you are searching for sometimes). Without D-web, I would not be able to maintain ownership of my vehicle. Not only is it cost prohibitive to take my vehicle to the dealership for all the little quirks that pop up but I live about an hour from the closest one. The wealth of information and resources that D-web presents is priceless. There many people on this board who have mechanical experience, retail parts and supplies and even the enthusiast who has had the same common problems happen to them that they can share solutions for. Nobody wants to see D-web go away and nobody wants to live in a police state either. If serious thread policing is required for a time, then I can live with it. This web site is not perfect. None are. There are going to be kinks and things to work out constantly, just like my disco. It is just a shame that the problem is one that is human related and not another technical issue for the web administrators. I have been in the internet business for a long time and have seen this happen on every community oriented site I have been involved with professionally. As a matter of fact, I had to pull the plug on a dial-up BBS I ran from my home prior to the days of the internet. The reasons were very similar to the issues that are being discussed here as of late. In my observation, I have come to conclude that some people, who could use a good bit of professional therapy, use the internet's many methods of communication as a substitute for good quality anger management. Its easy to semi-anonymously vent on someone on a thread. Maybe the person feels better but look what it does for the community. I really don't have much weight with my words, being one of the newbies but I hope that the few people who don't seem to care either straighten up or go away. Probation should be a one time chance. After that, ban them. It would be nice to post knowing that there is nothing but love and good will instead of dreading the possibility that someone will tell me how stupid I am. I'm not stupid, just ignorant. I'd also like to mention that there are people on this board, that are truely helpful and I'll always be grateful to them. Paul Morgan, Greg, Leslie, Sus, Evan, Nathan and many others who have taken time out to give myself and others good advice in a professional manner. That is why I'm here and will stay here because of people like these. As far as the Lounge goes, sure I'd like to be included. I'll be honest like a few others have been. I doubt I'd have much to contribute though unless Lounge topics are concerned primarily with policy and tech issues (of the internet kind). </$.02> | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1279 Registered: 04-2002 |
I think the biggest problem is that the people that are the problem don't know they are the problem so when people see threads like this one they are always pointing the finger at the other guys that are the ones causing the problem. Am I the problem? I don't think so, but I could be. Sometimes you don't always see beyond your own painted picture to know when someone is saying that You Yourself are the one that needs to alter their behavior. Seems to me that giving those people, or me if I qualify, a stern wake up call is the only way to make the problem child realize he/she is the problem child. Just my 2 cents, and if I am the problem child, I appologize for being bad......... | ||||||
| Sus (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 470 Registered: 06-2002 |
Right on Kyle! Hey, I'm not a Dweb lounge member b/c I got tired of reading all the junk and went away for a while. (oh yeah, I got married and had a honeymoon too!) I've really enjoyed learning from the people on this site and making, what I believe to be, some new friends! It's a great resource, reference and entertainment opportunity and we should all respect it. I post when I feel it's necessary and when I enjoy reading people's responses...but I steer clear of the drama. Just not worth it, plus, it takes too much time! Thanks to Axel, Ho and Kyle for their great work. I'll keep reading, posting and buying videos as long as DWeb remains. (hey wait, I need a T-shirt...)  | ||||||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1819 Registered: 02-2002 |
If we were all to act as adults, none of this would be necessary. If I'm not going to insult someone or call them names to their face, why would I want to do it on a Bulletin Board? I have learned an awful lot about Rovers from this site and others and would not be pleased if the resource were to be taken from me for my own stupidity, and I am one of those rare individuals who accepts the fact that the bad things that happen to me are at least partially (I'm not perfect!) my fault. If not for how the situation began, then for how I responded to it. Let us at least try to get along, help the newbies, learn even more and become closer friends. Peace, Paul | ||||||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 644 Registered: 09-2002 |
Like I said, it's a matter of respect. This is a great resource but people have to start behaving more like adults than adolescents. If you don't agree with each other, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but respect that instead of degrading the conversation to a bunch of name calling. It may be funny or entertaining to read but to those who are new to the site, it presents a really poor image as they have no idea why this is going on and this is their first impression. Although this is a private site per se, it's the public that makes it what it is with all the contributions. | ||||||
| Dana Giles (Dana_g) New Member Username: Dana_g Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, I haven't posted in months, but I've still lurked around here occasionally looking for new maintenance wisdom and checking out the pics. I am by no means one of the 'old guys' but I used to post a bit. I guess one of the reasons I stopped posting was because I saw myself getting heated on threads that had nothing to do with the reason I initially came here. I'm a pretty calm guy by nature and the fact that I was getting spun up about irrelevant stuff here kinda got me thinking. I suspect that the 'real' side of most of us rarely comes out on the web. It's an unfortunate fact of the net that folks tend to end up flexing their 'net muscles' and become less than polite toward each other and otherwise great sites such as this degrade into chaotic name calling. I'm certainly just as guilty of this as the next guy. The phenomenon happening here is the same as you find with new bands. The fan base who had been with them since they were playing the garage resents the new fans. Hopefully things will work out and this place will continue to be the great resource for Disco owners that it has always been. We're always going to have disagreements. That's one of the things which makes freedom great, we're allowed to disagree. But how 'bout we try to remember our manners. Dana | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 347 Registered: 01-2003 |
I hear you Kyle, you have a good point, you guys have the right and should keep dweb's good name and nature going. I meant by it getting strange was people seem to be more concerned about what there image here is instead of the content of their comments. Last week it seems people are trying to justify their actions and comments. I can't imagine people acting the same way had we all meet out on a trail. I have looked at other 4x4 bbs's, the "hardcore" one is just annoying because it is full of people who seem to fight for the right to call a newbie a dipshit, that was happening here. Others were so boring and where full of useless info, like no true tech help or trail info. When my truck had all of it's engine problems in the beginning of this year, I was going to buy a really well set up montero, but the lack of good support like dweb made me think twice(plus the help I got here fixed the truck). But I hope this still will be a place that a newbie can ask if a 03 headlights will fit a 95. Why? because we all were new to this at one time and had wacky ideas. A good answer like, no they won't fit is all that is needed, not all the "your not hardcore as us because you wanted to do that". Hey my wifes audi has xenon lights and I would love to have a cheap way of putting them on my d1. My point is moderating the board is good, I swear if I see that "hello and welcome to last week" picture again I'll shit, so what if someone said it before, post a link to the old thread instead of living for the day to post that f'ing pic. I just hope it doesn't turn into that h2 board where people like muskyman got banned for trying explain wheeling to them. Its a fine line on being a smartass and just an asshole. Flame wars are fun, like the classics from Kyle vs Muskyman in the milemarkers vs ramsey's threads. But the ones where it becomes, how can I save face instead of making a point because I'm beat need to go. A good example was the "submarine disco" thread, he got out of control trying to defend his story. I'm sure some of his story was true, but it got out of control. Dweb banned him, he relaxed, now he is posting again and seems fine. Sorry but the internet is full of to many dipshits that need to step away from the computer and get some fresh air. You guys moderating this board have a huge job ahead of you. I think one thing that could help is experienced (not older ones) members need to keep posting, If they set the tone it might keep the assholes at bay. For example, John Lee posts, love them or hate them, they have content and thought behind them, people who don't like them can repond, but need to respond on the level of his comments, not with "your a f--- head". But asking for maturity on the internet maybe like asking LRNA for a td5 d-110 for $20k, you can ask, but don't expect anything. | ||||||
| John Moore (Jmoore) Senior Member Username: Jmoore Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well put Andy, I'll try to help by spending more time helping newbs. This board had helped me with both of my trucks. It's a great knowledge base and I would hate to see it go away or taken over by hardheads. | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 865 Registered: 09-2002 |
i don't remember Kyle vs. Muskyman flame wars. | ||||||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 559 Registered: 06-2002 |
Hey guys. Why are you so woried about getting into 'The Lounge' I can understand people coming to DiscoWeb to converse with friends and what not, but it is here for information. That is part of the reason why there is registration, banning, and the lounge...dumb threads about nothing in the wrong area. I think the lounge is a good thing. Keeps that separate form other info things. If I am in 'The Lounge' cool, if not, thats cool too. I came here to have a great resource not to chat with friends "on a 4 hour break between 2 stupid classes" as said before. Yes, I like to make net friends, but if I am not in 'The Lounge', I am not going to post a thread about the fact I am not in it and I feel left out.  | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 349 Registered: 01-2003 |
Well, maybe not a flame war, just a good debate on which is better. I guess I'm using internet lingo wrong, I guess flame war means arguement, not debate. I meant that I miss the good smart ass debates. But I do remember Kyle giving Musky shit about his stuff being on a scout, not a discovery. Maybe it was in a different tread. | ||||||
| Steve Andrews (Sillybus) Senior Member Username: Sillybus Post Number: 273 Registered: 08-2002 |
Don't forget the good ol' Rancho shock debates. | ||||||
| Enoch Snyder (Esnyder) Member Username: Esnyder Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2002 |
John Lee must have blackballed me from the Lounge... | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 88 Registered: 04-2003 |
Now I know how the Irish feel. LOL come on over here....I'll show you how the Irish feel....heheehehehe | ||||||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 640 Registered: 02-2003 |
why blue you drunk? | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 90 Registered: 04-2003 |
oh, is Stacey a guy? | ||||||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 140 Registered: 03-2003 |
Blue I am flattered, however....I am trying to quit. (That was a 100% ALL AMERICAN JOKE!) Stacey a guy, type one each. | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 92 Registered: 04-2003 |
I know, just kiddin around | ||||||
| Tony DiFranco (Nhrover) Member Username: Nhrover Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2002 |
Not that my opinion counts but.... I think D-Web is a great thing. I don't think D-web owes anybody anything but the other way around. Guys, try to add up all the money saved from the info exchanged here. I for one have fixed many a problem from just reading the site. Debates can be good but some get way out of hand. A lot of people only post if they KNOW the solution to someones problem. and on the flip side only ask questions AFTER searching the archives and other areas. I feel D-web should be supported 100% by everyone here. Axel, Ho, and Kyle are willing to go through all the work to maintain the site lets respect it! just my 2 cents and probably my last for a long time. -Tony '00 D2 '02 Freebie (wife's) | ||||||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 201 Registered: 09-2002 |
Without having to read the whole thing how the hell do you get in the Lounge? | ||||||
| Will Roeder (Will_roeder) Senior Member Username: Will_roeder Post Number: 669 Registered: 02-2002 |
You have to be a lounge member... | ||||||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 527 Registered: 05-2002 |
Evan, Why in the world would you post the content of a private email you sent me to a board and topic that involves neither? Whatever the reason, I will help you out. I said this: "This is sad but true. If the worst damage one can do is posting comments about another that reflect your own true persona, that speaks volumes in my book. I am tempted to call up the FBI office in his area and have them take a closer look at this guy and his comments on-line. This is one sick fuck and the stuff he posts reflect what his interests truly are. The underlying themes are always sexually-related and revolve around those who are underage." I said what I meant, meant what I said, and can cover the gound that I walk on. However, later I said this: "Yep - you guys are right. I guess any illegal overt actions on his part will catch up to him (if they have not already). Not my shit." I meant that too. So, to summarize, I think you need help. Your posts on this board are over the top with meaningless perverted innnuendos. I am no prude by any means, but you go way too far. It seems that your MO is to make flippant controversial sexual remarks and then back this up on grounds that involves the posters comfort in his sexual preferrence. To justify my position, I will say that you have never done this to me, but to many others. Ergo, I consider my opinion on this fairly objective. Either way, your comments that intend to insult another sexuality are (a) inappropriate (b) offensive, and (c) in my opinion should get you banned for liability reasons if no other. The good news is that the FBI and NSA monitor almost all of the ISP's for various catch phrases. I see no need to mention you to them. They are already keeping an eye on you -C | ||||||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2002 |
Andy, Good points. My experience with the "sub" still stands true and those on D-web who know me, know as well. Despite the personal e-mail(not d-web)attacks I received, I changed. This site will change, and the moderators will show the way. | ||||||
| Cardboardkiller (Cardboardkiller) New Member Username: Cardboardkiller Post Number: 23 Registered: 05-2003 |
I feel left out. I haven't pissed anyone off enough to incite a flame war or get put on probation. That is very rare for me considering the amount of stupid questions I find myself asking. Who's gonna welcome into this shin dig? | ||||||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1085 Registered: 09-2002 |
Curtis, I thought I had just missed something with his comment. I read is several times trying to figure the context. It was very strange indeed and then the link he tried to post....nothing to add to that. | ||||||
| Chris von Czoernig (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 1123 Registered: 07-2002 |
Aaron, you dont. The name is a bit mis-leading Read this whole thread and then read this one: ../27/28315.html"../../clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Chris von C | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 293 Registered: 08-2002 |
My only problem with dweb is the bashing of the cheap bastards. I'm just a single guy on a budget. Manufacturing isn't what it used to be in the States and it doesn't pay as well. So as a consequence I have to take shortcuts at times. For example, I turned my own 2" spacers and lifted my truck without spending a penny. I have procomps on my rig, are they as good as Hellas? No, and i never claimed them to be, but they work and I can afford them. Are pelicans great? Yes! But the $20 dollar boxes I got at Lowes are decent, as good as pelicans? No, and i never claimed them to be. That being said, if you got the dough its always better to buy quality, but for some of us we can't. So could we hold back on the you "cheap fuck! You got those cheap ass procomps on a landrover?? SACRALIDGE!!!" I mean common, it reaks of snobdom. Do you expect someone to take garbage like that? Anyway, hopefully manufacturing picks up and there will be more green in my pocket. Than I can buy those nice hella 4000's and some sweet pelecan boxes. Until then a little respect and understanding would go a long way. OK, now I feel better. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well Christopher. Here is what I have to say about all that. Do you NEED lights and pelicans ? Nope , you certainly dont. Since there is not a dire need then you can certainly wait and get the shit that will do the job right. For instance. Do you really need the Rover ? Alot of other brands will get the job done for most of you , right ? But it seems you spent the cash to get a decent truck when you could have gotten off cheaper. Right ? Now there were days when I needed wheels and I did some shady shit because I had no cash. The difference is that I had to get where I needed to go and therefore did what I had to do to get there. I didnt cheap out on a luxury item... You see ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1688 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris, In your profile you list yourself as a Precision machinist and above you state, "Manufacturing isn't what it used to be in the States and it doesn't pay as well." You must have missed the week long coverage of "Blue Collar Goes high Tech" in the Wall Street Journal Last week. You see, there is a huge demand out there for guys like you and companies are paying big money for those with experience. The WSJ interviewed this kid who went to one of those 13 week trade schools. A year later he is pulling in $56k a year and has a high growth potential within his career field. Why am I telling you this? To bring the point up that the average person on this site with all the high $ mods on his / her vehicles are just ordinary working folks (like yourself) except that they wait a little bit and save longer for better parts for their vehicle. Kyle, Ho, Axle, and whoever else did not buy there Disco's on Monday and have them completely outfitted or kitted or modified by Friday. It takes awhile to get your vehicle the way you want it. I have been tinkering with my D2 for a little over two years now, and I am still not done. I am not trying to slam anyone here, but to just offer my opinion. Paul '00 Pig | ||||||
| One_Bad_Metro (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 434 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris- A lot of people have Pro Comps on their rig. I don't like Pro Comp lights, but I have never actively sought anyone with ProComps out and bashed them on their lights. Corey Shuman deserved what he got. I made a joke (admittedly at his expense) and he got defensive. He also made the assertation that his lights were just as good as any other. This is certainly not true, as you can testify. If you feel that my bashing of Corey Shuman applied to you, then I will certainly apologize. I will also tell you to grow some thicker skin, because I never targeted anyone but Corey Shuman. | ||||||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 353 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris, my question is what in the hell is a Havero M/T GT Radial??? and where did you dig them up?? all in good fun.. | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 907 Registered: 02-2002 |
To Paul n Kyle on your last post!!! HERE HERE. mike w | ||||||
| Kelly Fristoe (Kfristoe) Member Username: Kfristoe Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2002 |
So from what I gather, in order to be able to get Lounge qualiafied, you have to prove through regular and consitent postings that: 1. Your not a poser. 2. Your not an idiot. 3. Your not a broke ass land rover owner. and 4. You must display a high level of land rover intelligence and logic. Am I right? Not trying to be a smart ass here I'd just like to know. If I'm not qualified then fine, let me know what it takes. Otherwise I feel like I'm missing something here. Give me something to shoot for. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 294 Registered: 08-2002 |
Paul, that article is BS in my view. If you can tell me where this kid is making 56K right out of trade school, I would appreciate the info. If it is true, he won't be making that for long, he will get laid off eventually. I have been working in my Dads shop for quite awhile, maybe its my geographical location, but I can tell you from experience shops are closing down and liquidating. Not fat being trimmed but good quality shops. I get multiple auction notices every month. Its bad. I'm not writing to bitch or complain, just passing on my situation, and I'm worried. Hopefully it will turn around. Kyle. Thats the point I was trying to make. I don't need them, but why must I get bashed for not owning them or something different/cheaper. Koby, my skin is pretty thick. Now I know you were in a classic flame war but bashing someone for lights is one of the problems of this BB. It was pretty juvenile IMHO but you probably already know that. And lastly Gil Those are GT Radial Savero M/T's. Very comprable to BFG M/T's. I got a new set of 5 on Ebay for $400 delivered. They are sold mainly in Australia/Asia/Africa. They have been very good tires, I just wish I got them in a larger diameter. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 295 Registered: 08-2002 |
Paul. I re-read your post. Again, I'm not bitching at not having dough. I'm trying to put the best quality I can on my rig. Its going to take time. I'm just trying to explain why this board is stupid and "junior high" at times. Its not cool, is all I was trying to say. I just should have left my financial situation out of this, it is irrelevant to the point I wanted to make. I regret adding it now. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 374 Registered: 11-2002 |
Koby , dont feel bad at all. The FACTS are that pro comp lights are garbage. You dont need to say anything else. If someone doesnt see that they are junk then I wonder why they are here... I wonder if they bought their Disco to look cool or if they bought it to work. You see the pro comps can look cool to the average Joe , that same average Joe that thinks you are driving a 70 thousand dollar Range Lander Discovery... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 296 Registered: 08-2002 |
Man, this is getting stupid now. I am really pissed at myself for feeling I have to add this. I'm not boo-hooing, or woe-is-meing. I hope I didn't give the impression that the sky is falling for me finacially. My Dad's shop is in some lean times but were far from going out of business. I'm just short of that extra play money we all love and enjoy. Man, I feel so small right now.I apologize. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 375 Registered: 11-2002 |
Christopher , you get bashed because this site started as a site that talked about quality "UPGRADES" for your Discovery. Not anything that you can nail on that resembles something that will do the job. Thats the point , and I am wondering why that is so hard to grasp for everyone. Its not snobby , its not bitchy or whiney. Its simply the way it is.. The site is about good trucks and the good shit you can do to them. Not the cheapest beater you could find with the cheapest crap you could nail on it. And by cheap I certainly dont mean price. I mean quality. if you want to buy cheap shit for your truck and nail it all on there like a pep boys poster child then go right ahead. Just dont post about it here and expect to be greeted with open arms... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 497 Registered: 12-2002 |
Christopher- Is the work going out of the country or just not needed? I am curious, my bro-in-law is a machinist who would like to go out on his own. He was first trained as a welder but an aching back (too many beams lifted wrong) got him into his present position. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2003 |
"Do you NEED lights and pelicans ? Nope , you certainly dont. Since there is not a dire need then you can certainly wait and get the shit that will do the job right.... I didnt cheap out on a luxury item... You see ?" "Thats the point I was trying to make. I don't need them, but why must I get bashed for not owning them or something different/cheaper." I don't think he sees. Or he sees but won't concede. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 297 Registered: 08-2002 |
Tim, its a combination of things. Yes work is definitly leaving the country. The economy is recovering slower than expected. But actually now is really a good time to get in. It will get better, the precision machining business is very cyclical. Also machinery has never been cheaper. You can find stuff at 1/3rd the price of what it cost just 2-3 years ago. Salemen are practically begging us to buy new stuff...but not until I see some sort of recovery Thats fine Kyle. I wasn't around for the founding of Dweb and missed your mission statement. So I was unaware. Now that I know, I'll make sure to post with a re-adjusted attitude. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 298 Registered: 08-2002 |
Please enlighten me Mr. Lee. I want to see. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2002 |
Chris ? Why exactly do you think any site would be proud to give out advise on downgrades ? Frankly no one wants to hear about some lights from pep boys. No one brags about digging in the garbage and pulling out garbage. Do they ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 299 Registered: 08-2002 |
Whats your problem? Do you want a flame war? Is that what your looking for? I got your message loud and clear. What more do you want? | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 379 Registered: 11-2002 |
No problem at all. I asked you a clear intelligent question... That makes me dimented in some way or looking for flame war ? These are the questions that need to be asked and answered. I mean really. Who cares about garbage ? Would we put any effort at all and be successfull if we built a site based on nailing garbage to your truck ? Or hacking it to shit ? All of it fits in the same category. Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 206 Registered: 03-2003 |
"Please enlighten me Mr. Lee. I want to see." Kyle was perfectly clear, but because you're now playing dumb and asking for an explanation, I'll give you one. I won't say anything different from what Kyle said, but perhaps the repetition will do it for you and make that light bulb above your head ignite. Auxiliary lights are luxury items. Even the shit ProComp lights that go for $50 are luxury items. Nobody "needs" them. Auxiliary lights are not "need" items like a faulty fuel pump that "needs" replacement. Rather, auxiliary lights are luxury items, i.e., items that you don't "need" to buy and items that you "want" to buy. Kyle's point was that you bought your ProComp lights because you "wanted" them and you wanted to look cool. (You can deny this all you want, but think about your already-low credibility before you take the stance that you bought your ProComps because you needed auxiliary lighting.) The problem is, ProComp lights are not cool. They are shit. If you can't afford the Hella 4000 HID Motorsports, that's cool. If you can't afford the Hella 4000's, that's also cool. Not everybody can afford these items. Money is tight for a lot of people. But if money for you is as tight as you claim, why the hell are you buying ProComp lights? My advice is the same as Kyle's. For luxury items like auxiliary lights, don't buy the cheap shit. If you can't afford the good stuff, wait until you can. If you will never be able to buy the good stuff, then just go without. A stock Land Rover is a beautiful thing. If you have forgotten this fact, just go to your local Land Rover dealer and scope out the trucks there. They're really nice. Then look back at your truck and exercise some judgment. Did the ProComps make your stocker better or worse? I say the ProComps made your truck worse, not better. Perhaps you think I drive around town and look down on the stocker Disco's on the street? I don't. Sure, I notice them, but we don't think anything bad about them. But if I see a Disco with ProComp lights on it, I scratch my head and wonder what the owner was thinking he paid his hard-earned money to make his truck worse than it was from the factory. If you can't afford to modify your stocker, that's cool. Just don't put ProComp lights on your stocker. That's not enhancing the truck. It's spending money to make the truck worse. If money is truly tight, why spend money to make your truck worse? | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 380 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now to add to Johns post. I ask again. Why would we build a site and sink dollars and time into it if it was dedicated to just that ? Does that actually make any sense to anyone ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 921 Registered: 02-2002 |
pos.com mike w | ||||||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 350 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hmm...... I wonder what the criteria are to become a lounge member??? | ||||||
| One_Bad_Metro (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 435 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris- If you go back and read the "2005 spy shots" thread, you will notice that I give my justification for why I think Pro Comp lights suck compared to Hella 4000s. I don't bash on Corey Shuman because he owns Pro Comp lights, but rather because he is a moron and a liar. Don't be like Corey Shuman and miss all the relevant points. | ||||||
| Jason Walker (Dosed) New Member Username: Dosed Post Number: 26 Registered: 03-2003 |
Phew. I hope indeed that some eyes have been opened and we can all get back to obsessing/learning/raving about our Rovers. ~Cheers | ||||||
| Brian Goodner (Bluewater) Senior Member Username: Bluewater Post Number: 295 Registered: 03-2003 |
good question Phillip i would like to know that too. | ||||||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2002 |
I haven't posted in a while, but this quote got me thinking...."A stock Land Rover is a beautiful thing. If you have forgotten this fact, just go to your local Land Rover dealer and scope out the trucks there. They're really nice." In the last few months, I've put 8000+ miles on my '01 (totally stock). That includes a 7' snow storm in March, a trip to Moab to bike with a little wheelin' in April, a cross county vacation with the kids and wife to the VA coast, and this weekend, it served as my Niece's limo for her mountain top wedding, at 9600 feet, here in Grand County, CO.(she requested that I drive her up this abandoned logging road to a very cool site for a small family ceremony, the "guests" were shuttled on a four wheeler, btw, she drives and wheels a lifted, winched CJ - but loves Rovers). Oh,and I also picked up two kids and three adults and luggage at DIA Tuesday, and took them back this AM. My point is this, mods are great, but done right, expensive. To date my Disco has done more than any other SUV, or vehicle I've ever owned, and done it well. That's what it's designed to do. There is no way I'd junk up my Disco with some POS mod that to date, I haven't needed. I'm still learning the limits of a stock Disco, and I think it was Kyle that said the little round thing in front of the driver, plus experience makes a vehicle, not the amount of mods you make. My stock rover kicks ass, and I hate to admit it, but I've now waxed it twice. When the day comes that I can't do something w/o a mod, then I'll do it, and do it right. Until then, I'll just enjoy driving, wheeling and working on mine. Just my .2 | ||||||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 150 Registered: 02-2003 |
Jack, I could not agree with you more. A stock Land Rover IS a beatiful thing. My Disco has had a number of modifications done to it over the years, but a lot of the modifications I have done are not even visible. (Lockers, driveshafts, axles and such). Those modifications has been done because I deemed them necessary for the kind of trails I take it on. On the other hand my (my wife thinks it's hers ) Freelander is stock, and will stay that way. The only modifications we have done are a set of tail light guards to protect the low bumper lights from people bumping into them in parking lots (already had one broken that way, thus the guards) and a CB for road trips. We just finished a road trip from NJ to California and back again (7,300 miles) in it, and could not be happier with the Freelander just the way it is. I also am not afraid to admit that I just got back in after washing and waxing it in the driveway..... - Axel | ||||||
| William C. Leek (Onionman) Member Username: Onionman Post Number: 93 Registered: 07-2002 |
Jack and Axel, I have to agree with you two. My Discovery is still very stock, except that I removed the low-hanging (plastic) front air dam and installed Hella 550 fog lights (in lieu of those that were in the air dam) on the A-bar. We have driven this vehicle all over the US, loaded to the ceiling (at times) with luggage and camping gear and boxes of food. It never misses a beat, and has gone places that I wouldn't dream of driving any other make. What a great vehicle just as it is. | ||||||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1089 Registered: 09-2002 |
My Discovery is now almost a Jeep As soon as I install the plastic to replace the window I broke yesterday the transformation will be complete. I make that joke but my truck is a bundle of mods. All kinds of mods and I don't regret any of them. My truck is not very purdy any more but I bet it has seen more trails than 90% of the vehicles on this board. I do something to enhance my wheeling and I don't worry much about the image of my truck, but the reality is that I get a lot of comments from people that wheel that it is nice to see a Rover that is doing what it is designed to do. I have been reading all these posts about what is the right way or wrong way to do something and opinions about a cut up Rover and home made fabrication and I am a little bit sad because it seems that image is the prevailing attitude here and that wheeling is second. I enjoy and spend a whole bunch of time putting my truck to the limits and I have broken lots of stuff. I put function way way above form. I have been on this board for so long and conversations about wheeling have been far and few between, ideas on how to become self sufficient on the trail or in the garage are less often. I can not beleive the emphasis people are putting on the type of boxes that are used for storage. I don't know who said it but "it sounds like snobery" was exactly right. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 383 Registered: 11-2002 |
Brian ,dont give me that BS. Maybe it has been too long between my posts. You think yours has to take on that form to get where you have been ? Well why does the form of mine and Axel's and Kristians and quite a few others that you see in the videos not resemble a beater ? How is it that we can cover the entire country and some of another one with what we have and it not turn into what you have ? When I hear "Function is more important to me then form" its ALWAYS from someone that has beaten the living shit out of their truck. They have done so running the same exact shit that everyone else is running and not destroying their shit. Its not about image , its about pride..and about skill and responsibility. So you idndt care about what happened to your truck or how it ended up. Or you didnt have the skill level to come out of what you ran without destroying it. Thats fine. Shit happens. But dont come here saying that people wanting to keep their truck nice and not turn it into a beater are snobs. I put emphasis on storage and I am self sufficient. You think you can run with me with that beater ? For how long ? How many times have you left your state ? What exactly is the function that it has that dictates that it be bashed to shit ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 300 Registered: 08-2002 |
Ok fellas. I stepped away from my computer and let myself re-asses what you are saying. I understand 100%. I appreciate this site and your work you put into. I just wanted to help out and thought I would point out a problem I percieved. In retrospect I wish I just kept my mouth shut. I don't expect a congradulatory slap on the back for anything I do. Actually I poke fun at myself all the time for what I do. Again, I get it. Maybe in the end this will help out Dweb. -Chris | ||||||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 1091 Registered: 09-2002 |
"So you idndt care about what happened to your truck or how it ended up. Or you didnt have the skill level to come out of what you ran without destroying it. Thats fine. Shit happens. But dont come here saying that people wanting to keep their truck nice and not turn it into a beater are snobs. I put emphasis on storage and I am self sufficient. You think you can run with me with that beater ? For how long ? How many times have you left your state ? What exactly is the function that it has that dictates that it be bashed to shit ?" Kyle, I was talking in general terms about the conversations on this sight, not about anyone in particular. I do care about what happens to my truck but I don't let damage discourage me from running trails or ruining my day when it does happen. I still remember the first dent I got and I felt horrible, so much so that I didn't know if I still wanted to take that risk again on a trail but I decided to put that out of my mind and accept that it will probably happen. True...a lot of what I have done to my truck is due to lack of experience but I get more and more after every trail run. A better driver would probably been able to do the same lines as I have done and come out unscathed or might have decided that the line was not a reasonable line to take in the first place. I am not any where near the best driver and on a scale relative to GOOD and experienced wheelers I probably suck, I know people that can do things with their vehicle that seem impossible to me. In the years to come I am sure that my experience level will have less impact on my vehciel. Form verses function..... That is a hard question to answer. As i was driving to work today i started thinking about this and trying to find something that has function and no form and I have come to the conclusion that not much. I conceed that quality stuff usually looks good too. My tupperware boxes for example....they look like so much shit stacked on top of my roof and they crush but I am going to have to deal with it for awhile at least untill I get the rest of my list taken care of. When I see a nicely built Rover I am very impressed and will try to find a way to talk to the guy and I have a bit of envy too cause mine will never look that way again unless i start over. But there are alway tell tale signs weaather or not the guy uses the thing off road. I also see the other extreem of myself I see see someone that has spend lots of $$$ on their rig, whether it is a Jeep or a Rover or whatever that will never wheel. Could I hang with you with my beater? Are you talking about on trails or cross country or a combination? i think I could hang with you and probably drive mnost of the same lines but probably not with as much finesse. My rig looks like shit but I take care of it and if I break something I can get the thing running by myself with what I carry (so far). I would not hesitate to send my wife and kids cross country with it by them selves. I will say that when I buy my next Rover I will do things a bit differently and as far as mods i will do things in a different order. I have learned so much from this truck and the trails I have run and that knowledge carries over to everyday life. I anticipate possibilites better than I used to and I think about consequences more realisticly too. As far as leaving my state. Not nearly as much as I want to. 99% of my experience is in Colorado and I have done one trip to Moab. | ||||||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) On Probation Username: Jason Post Number: 541 Registered: 04-2002 |
My, how this thread has digressed... ...so, is it a smoking lounge? BTW, (LOL) I'm on probation? Did I offend somebody? I thought my disclaimer was in my user name... | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 385 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now Brian that was a really good post. I knew I liked you but from your last post I was left wondering why. As I said before , its fine to beat the piss out of what you learn in. For alot of us it wasnt a rover so we can now keep our rover decent. For some the learning vehicle is a rover and its going to get bashed , thats life. Knowing that it shouldnt of happened is much different then posting "Form follows function" to try and divert from any mistakes that might have been made. Again , that was a decent post , it would be nice if alot of other guys shared those feelings.... And I mean coast to coast , trail to trail , whatever gets in the way... That has always been my criteria.... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2003 |
So from what I gather, in order to be able to get Lounge qualiafied, you have to prove through regular and consitent postings that: 1. Your not a poser. 2. Your not an idiot. 3. Your not a broke ass land rover owner. and 4. You must display a high level of land rover intelligence and logic. Am I right? This guy is on the right track to a better dweb experience, but money doesn't have anything to do with it... | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 877 Registered: 09-2002 |
make it 3. Your not a cheap ass land rover owner. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 211 Registered: 03-2003 |
How about: 5: You know the difference between "your" and "you're." | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 878 Registered: 09-2002 |
that is a rare gift, John. | ||||||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 713 Registered: 02-2002 |
i.e.: "you're" - you are cheap bastard "your" - is that your cheap bastard LR? | ||||||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 370 Registered: 03-2002 |
you know...i have been lurking around discoweb for a while...then i learned a few things, so i posted when i knew something (or thought i knew). i never even looked at the general nontech section for year(s) until very receintly because i had so much to learn about my truck just on the tech section. i came to rovers via a honda passport (i know, i am sorry), two jeep grand cherokees, and now my DII. so i have make 4wd mistakes, but i learned. i have made disco mistakes, but i am learning. i am happy to be a part of this community (a land rover owner and a proud sticker wearing discoweb member). but for the life of me, i do not understand all the hubbub about the lounge. i am hear to learn and gain e-experience about my truck and trails. i figured that is why this bb was started. personally, i would like to think not only axel, ho, and kyle but EVERYONE that has ever offered help or suggestions to not only me, but to EVERYONE. i have had so many questions answered that i have not even asked yet. thanks. my veiw of the lounge is quite simple. i have so much to learn off the disco tech section that i have no interest in what goes on in the lounge. if someone else profits from being there, great! i am happy for you. but i see it like this...this is the house of the "trinity" and just like my house, if i invite you in, it does not mean you get to snoop where ever you want. there are still private areas in my home and while you are welcome here, respect my rules and my privacy. and have a nice time. once again...thanks for having an open door, thanks for all the knowldege passed on, and i hope i can visit again soon. mike | ||||||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) On Probation Username: Jason Post Number: 543 Registered: 04-2002 |
There you go Mike...that's certainly the attitude to have. I sometimes wonder what degree of entitlement people expect with a bulletin board. I use this board for free; haven't paid a dime. How many else are basically freeloading off this site? It's not my site, so it's not my say. The admins can do as they please and what right do any of us have to demand explanation for a restricted-use area of the board. ...now will somebody please explain why the heck I'm on probation? Who's my probation officer and when do I get the LoJack off my ankle? | ||||||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 371 Registered: 03-2002 |
thanks jason... i hope your probation officer is at least a good looking woman with interesting ideas regarding handcuffs and house arrest. | ||||||
| Sus (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 474 Registered: 06-2002 |
I only have one question...and I don't believe it's been addressed... Is the Lounge Co-Ed?! ;) Sorry, I couldn't resist! | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 930 Registered: 02-2002 |
Let us hope so, let us hope..... mike w | ||||||
| Eric N. (Grnrvr) New Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2003 |
I registerd again just to say a few words (since I deleted my profile, login, and password a few months ago) due to the way this site has been transforming. I first thought that Kyle, Axel, and Ho having to make a seperate place on their own BBS was really sad..I sent them and email after I heard about it more or less saying that they should just ban the crap out of people to get the point across. It really says some thing that they have to go out of their way to get away from all the useless debating and crap slinging by making the lounge.. I really hope that the lounge idea works out for you guys.. I can see why you have done it based just off of the last few threads that I read.. Do what you got to do guys. I just hope that the site can return back to what it once was when I first found it back in 99. There was some great info sharing back then and some even better ideas and advice. Now it just seems like the same things get asked over and over again only now people want to whine and debate it to death for no reason. Why is that anyways? It's not going to change the answer or the out come. Why waste the time? Anyway, good luck guys.. Eric N. | ||||||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 159 Registered: 02-2003 |
Actually, you are not to far off on one of the functions of The Lounge there....  - Axel | ||||||
| James P Groom (Jpg) New Member Username: Jpg Post Number: 9 Registered: 06-2003 |
I would like to say I do not agree with the decision of having a private area. This site seems to be turning into an "us" vs "them" pissing contest. I have seen this happen in several other unrelated sites as well. I would like to see more professionalism on everyones part, I find it difficult to take someone seriously when they need to have obscenities as their motto. I have seen the old timers rag on someone for their opinion and call it "good natured fun", then throw a fit when a newbie gives someone a hard time. I haven't seen any proof that an $90 Snap-On wrench is better than a $30 Craftsman. Why not: 1. Keep the technical area free of the non-technical stuff 2. Banning people who use abusive language from the site, this would require moderators watching their own language as well. 3. Enlarging the tech section with the easy stuff like lug nut size and a few torque settings. 4. Provide a method to conduct and post survey results so newbies can see what brand tires, shocks, bumpers etc people prefer. I realize it takes money to run this site and I have yet to show $$$ support, I'll get some tapes and stickers next week. This site is the reason I got my 2001 DII, even though it has been called a pimpmobile by an "old-timer" . I would hate to see this site go away. Jim Groom | ||||||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 663 Registered: 02-2003 |
jimmy, what you see is Us vs Them. Them = mega posting idiots that have degraded the usefullness of the site. Us = those who liked it the way it used to be. 1) there is difference in the craftsman and snap-on. i suspect you do not use tools enough to value that difference. 2)lead by example? tried that didn't work. 3)worthwile suggestion 4)until recently the site was particularly over run by mega posting idiots. if you were to have a survey you would get thier uninformed opinions and that would taint the results of the survey. i believe that the owners of this site want discoweb to reflect the way they feel a land rover should be set up. which is something like "first class all the way" or in other words don't junk up the truck. so to let everyone and there brother post all sorts of garbage mods that they dont like would undermine what the owners wan this site to be about. you dig? -rob | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 242 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I haven't seen any proof that an $90 Snap-On wrench is better than a $30 Craftsman." Just as Rob said, there is difference between Snap-on and Craftsman tools. You can't tell the difference between the tools because you either don't use tools enough to know the difference or you're incapable of appreciating the difference. But just because you don't have the knowledge or discrimination to appreciate the difference, don't go around saying there is no difference. There is. You mention Snap-on and Craftsman wrenches. Let's compare a Snap-on wrench to a Craftsman wrench and see how they differ. (I realize I'm wasting my time on you; this is more for the edification of the others on this BBS.) Here are two wrenches: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05795.jpg The bottom is a Snap-on Flank Drive Plus combination wrench and the top is an Evercraft combination wrench from NAPA. I don't have a Craftsman wrench handy for comparison pics, but the Evercraft is very very similar to the Craftsman in construction and quality. Here's a pic of the Craftsman combination wrenches: http://www.capitalcityloan.com/ebay/cratyft031.jpg As you can see, the Craftsman are all but identical to the Evercraft. The forging marks are left on the wrenches and the wrenches have a sandblasted finish. The open end features parallel jaws. The finish on both the Craftsman and Evercraft wrenches are the standard chrome finish instead of the double nickle-chrome finish found on the Snap-on wrenches. The box end of the Flank Drive Plus combination wrenches feature 12-point Flank Drive profiles like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05769.jpg These box ends are shaped so that they drive on the flats of the fasteners instead of the points. Standard 12-point box ends and sockets drive on the points of the fasteners, and it's easier to round off the fasteners in high-torque applications. The Flank Drive feature of the Snap-on wrenches helps to prevent mangling the fasteners. But of course you already knew that. Here are pics of the open end of the Flank Drive Plus wrenches: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05771.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05772.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05782.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05808.jpg That shape of the open end of the wrench is unique to Snap-on and patented by Snap-on. Nobody else has this. Not even your vaunted Craftsman. The unique shape actually makes a difference if, God forbid, you ever use your tools. When wrenching with a standard open-ended wrench with parallel jaws, the jaws naturally want to open up during high-torque applications. Under load, the jaws flower open enough that the tool engages the points of the fastener. There is no way to avoid this with parallel jaws. Not so with Snap-on Flank Drive Plus. The jaws on a Flank Drive Plus will still open like any other open-ended wrench, but the jaws are shaped to compensate for this. Check out: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05779.jpg That is a 9/16" Flank Drive Plus on a brass air connector. Imagine you are tightening the connector and turning it clockwise. The jaw of the Flank Drive Plus is not engaging the points of the connector because the point is falling into the recess cut in the jaw's face. Rather, the raised portion of the jaw's face is contacting the connector's flats. Here's a pic of the flat after torquing with a Flank Drive Plus open end: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05773.jpg You can see that the dimple made by the Flank Drive plus is well on the flat and well away from the point. I used brass for illustration purposes because brass is very soft and dings easily. Steel fasteners are not so easily dinged or marked. You can torque that much harder with a Flank Drive Plus without fear of rounding the edges of the fasteners. You can actually feel the added grip from the Flank Drive Plus when (or in your case, "if") you're wrenching. The concept of Flank Drive Plus is similar to the Metrinch concept except the tool fits tightly on the fastener and does not jiggle around. Accordingly, it is still possible to tighten fasteners in tight spots, just as with a conventional wrench. Another thing about Snap-on wrenches is that they are made of superior materials and thus can be made very slim and lightweight. Compare these two combination wrenches, both 16mm: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05795.jpg Compare the finish on the Evercraft/Craftsman and Snap-on wrenches. The Evercraft wrench is sandblasted, which makes cleaning the wrench harder as dirt and grease naturally want to stay in the sandblasting pits. The Craftsman is the same way. The Snap-on Flank Drive Plus has a mirror polished finish, which makes cleaning a snap. Just wipe it down with a rag and you're done. You may think this is fluff but it's not. If you wrench a lot, wiping down wrenches takes a lot of time and when you're tired after a job, easier cleaning makes a big difference. Polishing wrenches to a mirror finish takes time and money, which is one of the reasons Snap-on costs more. Even the inside of the jaw is mirror polished: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05783.jpg Compare the open end of the same two wrenches: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05799.jpg The Flank Drive Plus is much slimmer in profile, yet it is just as strong or stronger (probably stronger). The same is true for the box ends: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05803.jpg The ring on the Flank Drive Plus is much slimmer and allows you to get into tight spots better. Not only is the ring slimmer but the handle stays slim almost until the very end. The Evercraft's handle widens sooner and makes the tool heavier. The Flank Drive Plus' handle is also thinner in cross section: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05801.jpg With all of these thinner sections, one would think that the Snap-on wrench would be shorter. After all, a longer tool is more likely to break than a shorter one. However, the Flank Drive Plus is considerably longer: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05806.jpg Even with the longer handle, the Flank Drive Plus wrench weighs considerably less than the Evercraft. The Snap-on wrench is delightfully slim and feels almost like a drumstick in your hand. It's that light and balanced and handy. If you actually use one of these, you will never go back to your Craftsman wrench. The Snap-on Flank Drive Plus wrenches are also "marked" on both sides of the wrench, and on each end, like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05889.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05890.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05891.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05892.jpg Sitting behind your keyboard, you might not think this is a handy feature, but it is. When you have various wrenches strewn about and everything is dirty, it's nice to be able to tell at a glance which wrench you have in your hand. Or when all of the wrenches are stacked and you're looking for a particular wrench, the patent markings on the Snap-on wrenches is a very desirable feature. So the Flank Drive Plus wrench is better in several ways. It offers more torquing power with the open end, and the open end is slimmer to get into tight spots better. The box end is thinner and gets into tight spaces better. The handle is longer so that more torque can be applied, and there is substantially less risk of rounding fasteners with the added torque. The Flank Drive Plus is considerably lighter and so one does not get as tired handling it and wrenching with it. The Flank Drive Plus is also more nicely finished, which makes it more aesthetically pleasing and easier to clean. And the Flank Drive Plus is more patently marked. All of these things are little things, but they are what separate Snap-on tools from the others. By themselves they may not mean much, but add them all together on a single tool and they have a synergistic relationship that make Snap-on tools superior. But of course, you already knew that. All of the foregoing pertains to combination wrenches, because you mentioned "wrenches" in your post and I'm guessing that's what you meant. If you want to discuss impact wrenches or ratchets or sockets or screwrivers or whatever, the differences between Snap-on and Craftsman are just as apparent there as well. Craftsman tools are not junk, but they are not even in the same league as Snap-on. If you had bothered to examine a Snap-on tool, you might know this. But instead you convinced yourself that Snap-on was hype designed for the suckers, and you went with Craftsman instead. That's fine. If you want to live your life that way, that's your business. Just don't go mouthing off that the people who buy quality tools are doing it based on hype, or that there's no difference between Craftsman and Snap-on. There is a difference. You just can't see it. Or you refuse to see it. | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 133 Registered: 04-2003 |
Paul Harvey has got nothin on John Lee! | ||||||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 367 Registered: 10-2002 |
Nice. I never knew what the advantages of a high quality tool were since I never really used any, nor saw any, prior to having my disco. I've just started building up my tool box and even though I probably don't "need" a high quality tool set at this time, I can already see some of the advantages of higher quality tools. I'd rather do it right the first time. Thanks for the second point of view. | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1303 Registered: 04-2002 |
I agree with John that Snap On are great tools, and there are obvious differences between them and craftsman, however, I can't say enough good things about the line from J. H. Williams, a division of Snap On, called Kobalt. They are sold at Lowes and seem to feature a lot of the good things Snap On is known for. I have a few sets and think for the price they are pretty nice wrenches. | ||||||
| Sus (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 475 Registered: 06-2002 |
Wow....I learn soooo much on this board! | ||||||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 537 Registered: 08-2002 |
Wow, I actually agree with John Lee! There is a difference. I have both Craftsman and Snap-On and have been slowly upgrading all of my wrenches to Snap-On. Craftsman aren't horrible, you can sure do alot worse, but Snap-On are much better. John, have you ever tried MAC wrenches? I've used them on rare occasions, but not enough to get a feel for how they stack up. I have a friend who swears by them, but he could never explain it like you just did for Snap-on. | ||||||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 499 Registered: 12-2002 |
A true Wrenchologist! Thanks John, that was awesome! | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 354 Registered: 01-2003 |
Another thread that turned into why to buy quality tools came around I commented I had very few craftsman tools and have been replacing them with Matco or snap on, but I still had some lingering craftsman in the bottom of my tool chest. Well as a testomony, last weekend I rebuilt my swivel balls, changed my preload, and removed and checked the c.v. joints. I then started to torque all of the suspension parts front and rear to solve a wander/self center problem. The one non snap on or matco tool I used all weekend was a craftsman "micro" torque wrench. In spending about 8 hours of work on my truck, guess which one broke? If you guess the craftsman torque wrench I'll send you my leaky swivel ball seal as a prize. I torqued the trailing arms to 130 ft/lbs as per spec, the wrench was rated to 160 ft/lbs, the f'ing torque mechanism broke on the last bolt when I got on it, thank god for mechanik's gloves or I would I done damage my hands. Now how do I get a snap on or matco torque wrench if I don't know anyone who sells it locally? Since moving to slc ut I lost my connections to the dealer guys I knew. | ||||||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 240 Registered: 01-2003 |
You mean the MAC wrenches they give away on the Monster Garage? I don't know enough about them to form an opinion. Craftsman vs. Snap-On. John is right, Snap-On definetly have the edge. My Grandad alway swore by Plumb tools, I have only one in my assortment, and compared to Craftsman, I probably wouldn't have chosen it. My own tools are a combination of Craftsman and Snap-On. Most of the Snap-On's came from my military career. Sometimes when leaving the airfield, the MP's would search our cars looking for stolen tools and stuff. It was alway good to have that Craftsman toolbox, filled with Craftsman tools in the trunk, so they couldn't accuse me of stealing anything (They never looked in the pockets.) Over the interveneing years, I have just bought whatever was convienient at the time to get the job done. That said, my toolbox is now mostly Craftsman, but they are not the same as Snap-On. -Reed | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1304 Registered: 04-2002 |
Andy, You can order the tools directly off the snap-on website. | ||||||
| Joe Blanchard (Joeblanch) Member Username: Joeblanch Post Number: 46 Registered: 01-2003 |
Snap-on should be giving John a cut!! John obviously believes in this product, and it shows. He could have probably sold wrenches to a man with no hands with that pitch! Rock on John! | ||||||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 687 Registered: 02-2002 |
damn John... I think you better show that post to your local Snap on truck driver... that's gotta be worth at least one minute of "grab-what-you-can-and-it's-yours-for-free" the next time he pays you a visit. Glenn So many "essentials" so little cash....LOL | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 248 Registered: 03-2003 |
Damn, Reed. I'm not sure what to say your post. You stole government property? The Military paid good money for those high-dollar wrenches, and it's money that came from all of our pockets, money that we worked hard to earn. And you're even bragging about it here? I don't want to sound like a fancy pants prude, but I think that's pretty fucked up. | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 137 Registered: 04-2003 |
My own tools are a combination of Craftsman and Snap-On. Most of the Snap-On's came from my military career. Sometimes when leaving the airfield, the MP's would search our cars looking for stolen tools and stuff. It was alway good to have that Craftsman toolbox, filled with Craftsman tools in the trunk, so they couldn't accuse me of stealing anything (They never looked in the pockets.) So what you're saying is that I, the American taxpayer, bought you your snap-on tools? And I can't afford to buy myself snap-on tools for my own fucking garage??? | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 138 Registered: 04-2003 |
is this why I work my fucking ass off each & every day, with my earnings going not to me, but straight to the tax man, and I get what's left over after everyone's toolbox is full of snap-ons of their choice??? | ||||||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 688 Registered: 02-2002 |
Hey Reed, give me back the Snap on that I bought you!!!!  | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 139 Registered: 04-2003 |
if a snap-on wrench costs me, the average consumer, say....$180, I hate to think what the US Military pays for it. So I'm not even buying you ordinary, every-day snap-on shit, I'm buying you over-priced snap-on shit. Damn man.... | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 355 Registered: 01-2003 |
Reed, is that how you got your toilet seat too? I sure wouldn't want to brag about stealing. Greg, Thanks I'll go check that out. Maybe EE could become a snap on dealer, I'd love to see the write up on that, NASA, military links, it would be a long read. | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 356 Registered: 01-2003 |
On second thought, why should I buy one, I'll just get one of the guys here on dweb that are in the armed forces to steal me one. Hey I pay enough taxes, I deserve something back! And we wonder why it costs so much to run the army. Maybe I could convice someone to get me one of those special forces wolf defenders for a trail truck, hey I deserve that too. | ||||||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1712 Registered: 02-2002 |
WTF? | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2003 |
Well, I think that perhaps I may have jumped to conclusions here. I shouldn't assume that Reed stole his snap-on stuff. "came from my military career" could mean a lot of things...perhaps he bought them military surplus or something like that. I'll wait for Reed to comment before I comment further. Reed, if I've misrepresented anything, I apologize. | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1306 Registered: 04-2002 |
Hmmmm. Lot's of Dweb Lounge Member action circling around that post......... That said, When I logged onto Snap-On in search of an 11mm ratcheting wrench last year, the only one I could find was called Blue-Point, an affiliate line like Kobalt I guess. I wasn't able to find an 11mm ratcheting wrench with the snap-on brand. Anyway, I ordered it for a reasonable cost, and it seems to be similar build to the snap-on branded items. Any comment on how the other Snap-On products compare to the branded ones? | ||||||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 541 Registered: 05-2002 |
I won't give him the chance to make something up. The post was pretty clear that he stole my tools in his pockets. I am not sure which is dumber: stealing the tools or coming on here and telling us about it. | ||||||
| Steve Andrews (Sillybus) Senior Member Username: Sillybus Post Number: 287 Registered: 08-2002 |
As a former Air Force Security Policeman I'm surprised anyone could get away with theft more than a time or two on any airfield. The "Rivet Counters" or Security Specialist side of Security Police take their jobs pretty serious. Me, I just rode around in a car dishing out tickets (Law Enforcement). I am assuming that security must not be as tight on Army posts or Marine camps, whichever it was you were on. (Only Army and Marines use the term MP). If it is in fact stolen goods, that is pretty messed up. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2002 |
What John says about the Snap on tools is completely 100% accurate. Its so accurate that I will throw a craftsman wrench in the woods in a heart beat. Sockets are the same deal and use the same technology. When you have to use that same wrench day in and day out imagine the abuse it takes... I havnt had a single one of my Big wrenches warrantied since buying them. Come to think of it , the only ones that I have ever had break are the thin tappet wrenches..... And if any of you ever bashed John for being a hard headed ass hole that is full of shit. Well , I am fairly certain there was a time when he thought the snap on tools were over priced as well... He didnt hold onto that though now did he ? When something is better just admit that it is , even if you dont own it... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 357 Registered: 01-2003 |
Blue is right, if Reed got his tools legit, than I'm sorry I thought otherwise, but if they where stolen, well that's not cool. Also, I was trying to be sarcastic earlier, I re-read my last post and thought, WTF, too. Oh well so much for my poor attempt at wit. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 249 Registered: 03-2003 |
I've never used anything MAC, as there's no MAC truck in our vicinity that I know of. Here at the shop, the only two trucks that stop by are Rene Pauer the Matco guy, and Steve Hertzmann the Snap-on guy. Rene's wife owns the cafe across from us so Rene stops by every single day. Steve drops by once a week. EE a Snap-on dealer? LOL. That would be awesome. I've actually called Snap-on to ask about it. Snap-on said that their tools are sold only through the Snap-on trucks and Snap-on.com, and that's it. We had one guy walk into into the shop once and ask us why we bought our Snap-on tools from the Snap-on truck, when we could get our Snap-on tools cheaper from Home Depot. He was serious too. Greg we bought those Blue-Point ratcheting combination wrenches in both SAE and metric, but we returned them because they were pieces of shit. The black paint on the seletors was chipping off. The ratcheting box end was secured by a POS C-clip and the box end of the wrench was HUGE. The "engravings" were just laser-etched on. The open end jaws were parallel. The wrenches weren't full length either. Even the Craftsman ones are substantially nicer than the Blue-Point ones. If you want a really nice ratcheting combination wrench, I recommend the Matco ones like the lower one in this photo: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05888.jpg These Matco wrenches are superb. They are very nicely made, thin, long, etc. etc. They are the equal of Snap-on Flank Drive Plus, I think. The open end features Matco's version of Flank Drive Plus. You can just barely see it in that pic. This differs slightly from Flank Drive Plus in that the fastener is imprinted less with the Matco version, but the Matco version works only one way while the Flank Drive Plus can be torqued either clockwise or counterclockwise. With the Matco, you have to flip the wrench over if you want to torque very hard the way other with the open end. Not a big deal. I think every D2 owner should have these wrenches in at least 13mm and 18mm. Steve Hertzmann was telling me that the patent owner for the ratcheting box wrenches is owned by some Taiwan company, so all of the wrenches that feature the ratcheting closed end are made in Taiwan. This struck me as odd as the Matco ratcheting combination wrenches are made in the USA. I showed these wrenches to Steve and he was shocked. As far as Steve knows, these Matco's are the only ratcheting box wrenches made in the USA. All others are Taiwan. And now, about Kyle. This crack dealer is the one who got me started on Snap-on in the first place. LOL. Actually, Kyle knows a LOT about tools. I think he knows as much about tools as Bill Davis knows about Land Rover drivetrains. Whenever I have a drivetrain question, I cut right to the chase and ask Bill Davis. Similarly, whenever I have a tool question, I cut right to the chase and ask Kyle. I always get good answers from both. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 307 Registered: 08-2002 |
John, you should be a machinist. You would make the germans look sloppy. | ||||||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 567 Registered: 06-2002 |
Shit John, i'm sold. One thing about you John, you really belive in what you use or sell and that's cool. There is a reason you sell it and use it and you do your homework! That is a virtuous quality and I appreciate that. Tools are one thing you need (if you use them) and can't necessarily wait until you can get the good ones. Consequently I have Craftsman. If I buy more in the future though, I will go with Snap-On or Matco. | ||||||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 397 Registered: 11-2002 |
MATCO , intersting. How about Mac Allied Tool Company ? John knows my views on MAC and Matco and they certainly have tools worth buying. But for the "Needed" hand tools you just arent going to beat Snap on. By needed I mean the core set that you have that will get any job done pretty or not. You have that core set that you have to have so that you know you have what it takes to get the job done and then you have luxury tools that you buy to maybe make things a little easier or faster. Its alot like building a solid Rover... Kyle "Blow me" | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 250 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hehe. The "Old Faithful" tools. Kyle's advice was to us was to get the Old Faithful tools first, then get the toys later. That's why we have the Flank Drive Plus wrenches as our foundation, and we buy the Matco ratcheting combination wrenches only on an as-needed basis for some tight spots and such, like the front upper shock mounts on the D2. Snap the Matco? No problem. Flank Drive Plus is in reserve. Kinda my philosphy on guns. | ||||||
| James P Groom (Jpg) New Member Username: Jpg Post Number: 10 Registered: 06-2003 |
John Lee I did not intend to insult anyone in my post, I said "I" had not seen any proof that Snap-On was better. I started buying Craftsman 25 years ago when I was an E-4 in the military and could not afford Snap-On. The Snap-On distributor required a minimum purchase each month of $100 and a signed contract. I had also been told back then by a jet engine mechanic that the polished finish makes the tools slippery. Until now I haven't had any reason to look at other brands, the work I do is minor and has not resulted in broken tools or rounded nuts. Just a brief and non-condescending answer without the insults would have been fine. I have a fine swiss watch but I do not denegrate other people as being stupid because they wear a Timex. I never said people that buy Snap-On tools are doing it as a fashion statement, you are reading too much into what I said. My point was that the bashing that goes on at this site is just as much the fault of the old timers as it is the newbies. I am sure if I used a different example then someone else would have bashed me. I thought this site was supposed to be a learning tool for everyone. Maybe I am wrong. I do appreciate the examples you referenced, I will definitely look at Snap-On when I am shopping for a torque wrench. | ||||||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 243 Registered: 01-2003 |
My last assignment in the Army was down in Georgia. Befitting my rank at the time, I lived off-base. The Snap-On tools that I aquired there literally followed me through the gate, I usually discovered them at the bottom of my washing machine, along with the all the damn rivets that also found their way into my pocket while working on our countries aircraft. The rivets where my fault, I would usually put a dozen or so of various diameter and lengths before walking out to an aircraft. The tools usually found their way into my pocket because I found them in an aircraft, or laying on the ground on the flight line. I picked them up because they didn't belong where I found them, the forgot about them as I did my job. (FOD is a BIG no no on a flight line.) These amounted to a probably a dozen or so 1/4" drive sockets, and an occasional wrench. I never intentionally stole any tools by sneaking them off the base. Otherwise I would have a good pneumatic rivet hammer, and a complete set of rivet sets. I doubt very much that even at 1969 Army prices those "aquired" tools amounted as much as $50.00. Reading my post over, it might be misleading. I was actually trying to illustrate why I had and used Craftsman tools. The comment about the pockets was because I never really knew what I had in my pockets at any one time. During that same time I was also involved in sports-car racing, and Snap-On would usually have a presence around the pits. If there was something shiney that I thought I had to have on the Snap-On truck, I would BUY it. After that part of my life I became a starving student, and aquired very few tools, but the ones I got were purchased at Sears, when I could afford it, or at flea markets when I couldn't. Technically the Army tools were stolen. To any who were old enough to pay taxes at that time, I apologise. The only time I ever intentionally stole something, (not from the military), I got caught, and learned a big lesson. Believe it or not! Now who's got the Special Ops GPS antenna, and how did you legitimatly come by that? And who else wanted them to get the same "deal" for them? -Reed | ||||||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 545 Registered: 05-2002 |
Reed, Box those tools up and send them where they belong. You knew it was wrong at the time and you know better now. Please do not try to justify it by saying it was only some 1/4" sockets and a few wrenches. That is pure BS. Even if what you say is true, that is still a few C-notes out of our pockets. Snap-on is top shelf and expensive as hell. The mechanics who aquire them by legal means pay a dear price to do so. I see no fucking reason you should aquire them any other way. -C | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 933 Registered: 02-2002 |
for pete sake, how many of you who ever worked on or near a US Govt area ever walked out with the pen that was made by the blind? same kinda of theft. in taxes there are more important issue to be concerned about about than a GI lifting a wrench or two. so let it fucking go! Reed, next year when you file your tax return slip and extra fifty in to cover your bad. mike w | ||||||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 149 Registered: 04-2003 |
You're right...want to leave your garage unlocked tonight? I need a couple tools. Thanks man. | ||||||
| Mike M (Mikem) New Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2003 |
Instead of getting pissed off at Reed and every other taxpayer who acidentally took something from the government, maybe we should consider boycotting Snap-on for overcharging the government and purposely stealing our tax money. That is, unless the wrenches that the military buys are the super special versions not available to the average consumer. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 251 Registered: 03-2003 |
James, Man, where do I even start with you? "I did not intend to insult anyone in my post, I said "I" had not seen any proof that Snap-On was better." What does this mean? You sound like Reed Cotton coming up with some incredible story after the fact. First you said, "I haven't seen any proof that an $90 Snap-On wrench is better than a $30 Craftsman." After I show you proof that a $90 Snap-on wrench is in fact better than a $30 Craftsman wrench, your reply is, "I said 'I' had not seen any proof that Snap-On was better." What the hell? What difference does the extra set of quotation marks around "I" make? I'll repeat what I said before. There is a difference between Snap-on and Craftsman. Either you can't see the difference or you refuse to see the difference. After your last post, I think the latter is true. You refuse to see the difference and acknowledge the superiority of the Snap-on tools, probably because you can't afford them or you're too cheap to buy them. So you convince yourself that Craftsman tools (the tools you own) are just as good. "I started buying Craftsman 25 years ago when I was an E-4 in the military and could not afford Snap-On. The Snap-On distributor required a minimum purchase each month of $100 and a signed contract." This is not true. There is no minimum purchase from any Snap-on dealer. The Snap-on guy is no different from any other small businessman. He'll take any order, big or small. Sure, he would prefer that you bought a $10k tool chest, but he'll take any small order. He's a drug dealer. He knows that no matter what Snap-on item you buy, even if only one wrench or whatever, you'll get hooked and come back for more. Once you use a Snap-on tool, your other tools, tools that you were perfectly happy with before, pale in comparison. Suddenly, you find yourself regretting the purchase of your non-Snap-on tools and want to replace them with Snap-on tools. This has been my personal experience and others on this thread have attested to this as well. Just last night, the Snap-on crack dealer came by the EE shop for his weekly drug run. We bought a few items totaling about $250. These items included a set of plastic eyeglasses, which cost $8.60. This is probably one of the cheapest things inside the Snap-on truck. We could have bought only the eyeglasses and nothing else. There is no $100 minimum. And $100 25 years ago was a hell of a lot of money, which makes your story even less credible. And what's this stuff about a signed contract? The Snap-on guy will sell to you on payments, but he'll also sell to you on cash and carry terms. If you doubt this, next time you see a Snap-on truck parked at your local McDonald's or something, walk up to the Snap-on guy and tell him you want to buy a tool. He won't give you some $100 minimum bullshit or require a contract. Just tell him what you want and you can pay cash and walk out with the tool. It really is that simple. "I had also been told back then by a jet engine mechanic that the polished finish makes the tools slippery." This is patently untrue, as anyone who has used the sandblasted and polished wrenches knows. The sandblasted wrenches are actually more slippery. If you doubt this, just try using a polished wrench and a sandblasted wrench side by side. You will be a believer. The hand grips the polished wrenches more securely. If you don't have access to a polished wrench, borrow some smoker friends' Zippo lighters and play with them in your hand. Zippo's come in both polished and brushed finishes. You'll see that your hand grabs the polished Zippo much better, and that the brushed Zippo's are much more slippery. The finish on the sandblasted wrenches is very similar to the finish on the brushed Zippo's. It's actually more slippery than the full polished finishes. "Until now I haven't had any reason to look at other brands, the work I do is minor and has not resulted in broken tools or rounded nuts." This is not credible. You might not have broken a tool, but you've never mangled a fastener by having a wrench slip? I think everyone has at least once in his life, even if he wrenches only very occasionally. One of the advantages of the Flank Drive Plus wrenches is that the serrated portion of the open jaw grabs the fastener more securely, sort of like the way these screwdriver bits do: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05710.jpg When you use these bits with the Anti-Camout Ribs on them, you can actually feel the added grip when you're turning fasteners. Slippage is substantially reduced. The same goes with Flank Drive Plus. Not only do these wrenches prevent the rounding of fasteners by driving on the flats, they prevent rounding of fasteners from slippage. It's very easy to slip with an open-ended wrench. When you say you've never slipped, I find that very uncredible. "Just a brief and non-condescending answer without the insults would have been fine. I have a fine swiss watch but I do not denegrate other people as being stupid because they wear a Timex." Am I slamming you because you have Craftsman tools? Hardly. That's the way you frame it because it makes me look like the bad guy. Or perhaps you can't comprehend the real reason and you perceive that I'm slamming you because you own Craftsman tools. This is not correct. Just for the record, I'm not slamming because you own Craftsman tools. I'm slamming you because you claimed Craftsman tools were just as good as Snap-on tools, which is patently absurd. If you use Craftsman tools, that's cool. If Craftsman tools are all that you can afford, that's cool. If you're perfectly happy with your Craftsman tools, that's cool. If you want to buy Snap-on tools, but can't afford them, that's cool. Just don't go saying that Craftsman tools are just as good as Snap-on tools. That's not cool because it's not true. BTW, which "fine swiss watch" do you own? I'm very curious. "I never said people that buy Snap-On tools are doing it as a fashion statement, you are reading too much into what I said. My point was that the bashing that goes on at this site is just as much the fault of the old timers as it is the newbies. I am sure if I used a different example then someone else would have bashed me. I thought this site was supposed to be a learning tool for everyone. Maybe I am wrong." Yeah, you're wrong. I think you're a little lost. "I do appreciate the examples you referenced, I will definitely look at Snap-On when I am shopping for a torque wrench." Do you really appreciate the examples? I don't think you do. You have yet to say something like "wow, I didn't know there were that many differences between Craftsman and Snap-on" or something along those lines. Your responses thus far have been that polished wrenches are slippery, you've never broken a Craftsman tool, and you've never rounded a fastener, i.e., the advantages of the Snap-on tools is no advantage at all. Yeah, let us know when you fork out $400 for a Snap-on torque wrench when you can buy a Craftsman torque wrench for $100. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 252 Registered: 03-2003 |
"Instead of getting pissed off at Reed and every other taxpayer who acidentally took something from the government, maybe we should consider boycotting Snap-on for overcharging the government and purposely stealing our tax money. That is, unless the wrenches that the military buys are the super special versions not available to the average consumer." Snap-on does not overcharge the Government. Do you really think the people in the Government are so stupid that they would pay more for 10,000 wrenches than it would cost a consumer to buy 10,000 wrenches from Snap-on? I don't know about tools, but it is very common and perfectly legitimate for the Government to pay high dollar for military small arms because of various warranties and training programs and such. I forgot the actual number, but I think the Military paid something like $400 for each M9 pistol. That is a lot of money when you consider that the Military purchased something like 400,000 of the things. But the Military specified certain things that the average consumer doesn't get, like a lifetime warranty, armorer training, instructor training, etc. Beretta also had to tool up to make a third of the 400,000 M9's in the USA, so that was part of the contract as well. I think the M9 contract explicitly required a percentage of the pistols to be made in the USA. I think the terms were something like the first third of the total M9's could be made in the winning company's home country, the second third had to be assembled in the USA from foreign parts, and the last third had to be made and assembled in the USA. All of these things take money, which is why the pistols cost so much. And the Government is willing to pay the higher price because Americans are put to work. The M24 sniper rifle is similar. Again, I can't remember the exact price, but the Army paid something like $4,000 for each Sniper Weapon System from Remington. That is a lot of money for a sniper rifle. In fact, it's more than a consumer off the street could buy the EXACT same rifle for if he had a gunsmith build up the same rifle from a Remington 700 long action, Leupold M3 telescope, HS Precision stock, Harris Bipod, 5R barrel, etc. But the Army specified things like steel trigger guards for the rifles, which Remington had to outsource to various fab shops. These steel trigger guards were milled from solid bar stock because of the small number of sniper rifles in the M24 contract. I think the Army also specified a lifetime warranty on the rifles, which Remington doesn't offer to the general public. I'm sure armorer training was involved as well. All of these things cost money. Remington might not even have made money on the M24 contract and made its real money by selling M24-style rifles to consumers at large who were enamored with owning the "Army's sniper rifle". Also, I'm sure lifetime warranties for these weapons are really expensive. Military weapons are used much harder than consumer weapons. Civilians who own their weapons don't shoot them as often, and they treat their own weapons much nicer than if they're issued a weapon. Also, shooters are "into" guns and thus treat their nice guns accordingly. Soldiers and Marines and Sailors are not necessarily "into" guns and are more likely to treat their weapons more harshly. Also, military weapons are used under combat conditions, where proper maintenance might not be possible, ans thus parts breakage is higher. I'm sure all of these things are factored into the bids on these types of contracts. So when you read that the Government is paying for something than what you paid for it, it's not necessarily Government stupidity or some company ripping off the Government. Usually there is a reason for the high price. | ||||||
| Mike M (Mikem) New Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2003 |
John, You're absolutely right. If you read the last line of my post, you'll notice the caveat that implied everything you said about extra value.
Yes, I do. There are a lot of really intelligent people that work for the government. There are a lot more stupid people. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 310 Registered: 08-2002 |
There are standards called Mil-Specs if anyone is interested. When you bid on a government contract you must meet these specs. So for some things that you buy off the shelf they will meet these specs, most will not. That is why a toilet seat can be so expensive when the government buys them. The government puts out bids and if they request a small lot some of the bigger MFGr might skip it and a smaller MFGr will put in a bid at a substantially higher price. Obviously the reverse is also true. | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 934 Registered: 02-2002 |
to add to all the confusion of govt bidding, there are certain groups of vendor that the govt is compelled to purchase from. these are generally minority vendors. they have been known to overprice aka gouge on a product because you have to buy from them....thank God for privatation. mike w | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 311 Registered: 08-2002 |
Right Mike! Namely "womened owned" businesses. To do this you really have to trust your wife but I know many machine shop owners that put the business under the wifes name and claim the "woman owned" distinction. Manufacturers such as United Technology, GE, Boeing, Etc. must set aside a certain percentage of their work to "Minority" businesses because the Government mandates it. | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 897 Registered: 09-2002 |
I don't know, John, I find this story completely credible. I didn't "walk out" with any government or state property from any of my jobs (in fact I lost a bunch of my own), but every time after a field experiment I've been digging out all kinds of crap from my pockets, esp. from the work vest. So you guys who called Reed all sorts of names either rushed with your judgement, or have no clue how things happen in "open-air" environment. Speaking of tools, we could harldy afford Snap-On or even Craftsman stuff for work. It's been Husky or similar, and part of the reason was that the chances of them getting to the bottom of the ocean were pretty fat. And (while it's not a common practice) when you use tools when your hands are wet, or under water, polished tools slip away much faster than sandblasted. peter | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 898 Registered: 09-2002 |
oh, another thing. When a few years back I heard a story how some senator went to Radio Shack and bought a transistor for a few cents that a big government contractor charged U.S. taxpayer something like a hundred bucks, I laughed out loud on how smart the senator was. Now being more on the other side of the fence, I think that the story was a complete bullshit: - there's no way a senator could tell a transistor from any other part, someone must've armed him/her with that knowledge - there's little to no way a contractor could have split the bill down to individual electronic parts - and, finally, all government guys I've ever met were amazingly sharp. I may have been lucky... peter | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 254 Registered: 03-2003 |
You can believe him. I don't. From my way of looking at things, he was bragging about having stolen some tools. When the reaction was not what he suspected, he changed his story. Again, that's just how I perceive the chain of events. He could be telling the truth. I'm not Dionne Warwick. But it sounds to me as if he's lying. Just my opinion. One big question I do have is if his story is indeed true, then why didn't he just return the tools the next day? He didn't. He kept them. He tossed them into his tool box and his Craftsman tools went Uptown. Again, I don't want to sound like a prude, but that is fucked up. So even if we believe his story that he wasn't pocketing the tools with the intent to purloin them, why didn't he return the tools once he discovered they were in his pockets? He freely admits he still has the tools. Explain yourself out of this one, Reed. Another thing that totally rubbed me the wrong way was how he tried to justify his keeping the Snap-on tools by saying the Government didn't pay that much for them. To me that smacks of theft; it's something people commonly tell themselves when they're pinching something that doesn't belong to them. Again, just an opinion. | ||||||
| James P Groom (Jpg) New Member Username: Jpg Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2003 |
When I worked on a flight line all of our tools down to the smallest socket had to be engraved with a master toll kit number belonging to that shop. It would be easy to track down the tools owners. At the same time (in the Air Force anyway) if a kit is brought back to the shop with missing tools, then the last plane worked on is red-lined (grounded)until the tool is found. Jim Groom | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 899 Registered: 09-2002 |
lol, you beat me... I remember getting pissed when I pulled my jacket from the washing machine, ruined with rust stains from wire cutters left in the pocket... Sure, I returned the $5 tool where it belonged, but the jacket was gone | ||||||
| Bryan Crosby (Bcroz) Member Username: Bcroz Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2002 |
Theft is theft, kind of goes along with the mentallity that downloading mp3's is ok (it's not, it's theft too). Where did the thinking that "it's owed to me" or other such nonsense propogate? Hey Reed, if a friend left a full set of snap on sockets in your rig, do you figure finders keepers or do you return them? | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 312 Registered: 08-2002 |
If Reed's story is true than smuggling them in would be just as risky as smuggling them out. So I can understand why he would not want to risk that. Self-preservation kicks in. He would have been branded a theif instead of forgetfull. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 255 Registered: 03-2003 |
"If Reed's story is true than smuggling them in would be just as risky as smuggling them out. So I can understand why he would not want to risk that. Self-preservation kicks in. He would have been branded a theif instead of forgetfull." Oh please. I've never been in the Military, but I find this very doubtful. If you return something the next day and say "I found this on the ground, pocketed it with the intention of returning it, totally forgot about it, and then walked off base with it, and now I'm returning it", do you really think he would be charged with theft? Perhaps this is a new concept to you, but thieves don't return the stuff they've stolen. People know this, or at least most people do. When someone brings back something and says he didn't claim to take it in the first place, it's very credible. | ||||||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 689 Registered: 02-2002 |
When my 5 yr old was 2, we would take him to the malls in a stroller. There was a couple of times where upon going back to the car, we saw that he grabbed a stuff toy (from Macy's, and the other incident a baseball cap from the Gap). On both occasions, I went back and returned these items. The manager at the Gap was so pleased and amazed that she gave the baseball cap to my son. Thankfully he's never done it again, I wouldn't want to be raising a hooligan... If someone "accidentally steals" something, I think it's honorable to bring it back. Just my .02 Glenn | ||||||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 184 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi I don`t know , theft of any mans tools is bad, I`ve oftened worked with people who have the mindset, that so long as they were not bought by that person, they are fair game. I work with my tools and they are all snap-on, nobody borrows my tools anymore, I am fed up replacing my tools, or spending hours scouring over tool chests for my tools, John you are so right about the drug dealer comparison, just today I was in the van and only had a 2mm hex head replaced, he never had what I wanted, will be there next week. what rubbish about a minimum order, he knows you`ll be there next week. I never try to convince people about snap-on tools, but whenever I am in foreign workshops I always check out the bays, and what guys are using, I have to say I cannot take anyone seriously who uses poor tools. Pete S | ||||||
| Steve Andrews (Sillybus) Senior Member Username: Sillybus Post Number: 288 Registered: 08-2002 |
I just had to point out that that is not always true. Many bands allow tapers to come tape at there shows and trade music in many formats to include MP3 (see http://btat.wagnerone.com/). There are also bands and music distributors that will sell music legally to you in MP3 format. | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 313 Registered: 08-2002 |
You could be right, maybe if Reed wants to add why he didn't attempt to return them it could clear this all up. There might have been outside reasons why he didn't bring them back. Reed? | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 900 Registered: 09-2002 |
this slip-away tool development reminds me a bit a three-years old thread about Texas guys in Colorado. Nearly everyone rushed in to bash them without knowing much detail, and without giving them any benefit of doubt. Check this out: after Reed's original post, there were 12 posts accusing him of theft, and his only post to clarify the situations. Out of 7 or 8 people accusing him of theft, only Bluegill cared to express his doubt in the retrospect and offer a "conditional" apology, Andy Thoma following in his wake. Couldn't you guys wait for a "yes" or "no" answer from the "defendant?" I may be way off base here, but I think this is what may be happening: many if not most of us actually are supposed to do some work, and making a post or two should not and cannot take much time out. As a consequence, people allow themselves ramble, and sometimes make statements that allow multiple assessments. In a friendly environment, questionnable statements would be either ignored, or an author asked for clarification and the topic left off the air until such is given. Here, the judgement is doled out by anyone and his uncle without a minute hesitation, and it troubles me. Theft is theft - very smart, Brian, very smart. I just took 5 minutes off my work, please, don't worry, I'll put it back in by the end of the day. | ||||||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 901 Registered: 09-2002 |
you beat me, Chris. | ||||||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 683 Registered: 02-2003 |
as for the government stuff costing more i remember a senetor or some gov. dude comming out with a book a bout 5 years agoa called the $900 hammer or $10000 toitlet or something like that. it explainted that the government was fudging the books the pay for secret defense things. it was the way it used to be done and i think the stigma is still around that it's still getting done that way. frantically searching the web for the name of the book -rob | ||||||
| my96disco (Trevorh) Member Username: Trevorh Post Number: 196 Registered: 02-2002 |
Rob, That was also a line from the original Men in Black movie. Trevor | ||||||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 684 Registered: 02-2003 |
so men in black was true?? the horror | ||||||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 244 Registered: 01-2003 |
Wow!!! Ok, that was thirty years ago, though I would now like to think I didn't, there may have been some larceny in my heart. Let's now assume that was true, I wanted those tools. Popular opinion here says that keeping them was wrong, regardless of my original motives. Ok. What to do about it now? Curtis suggested, I should box them up and send them where they belong. On the face of it, this sounds like the right thing to do. I should not benifit by these ill-gotten gains. The trouble is, where to send them. I am asking for practical suggestions here. 1. Sending them back to the Army, or the DOD sounds like it would cost us taxpayers an awful lot while various Govmnt. types figure out what to do with this box of tools. (These tools were written off the Army inventory, when the first idiot left them in an engine intake, a sink elevator coupling, under a rudder pedal, or anywhere else it didn't belong. Regardless, that doesn't make me having them right though.) If anyone has a practical address for such returns, let me (and the rest of us) know. 2. I could donate them to a charity, and not use the donation for tax purposes. (Koby - we can use the donor slip to help start Kens BBQ next time at Hollister. Pictures can be taken and other d-webbers present can verify it.) 3. Overpay my taxes? Ok, that is even an option. I'll box them up this weekend. Now what do I do with them? Suggestions will be given more weight from veterans, and active service people. -Reed | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 936 Registered: 02-2002 |
Reed, i am a Vet.....keep em, with respect to all those here and i understand your points, i can say that you proberly earned them more than most know. mike w USN 78-87 | ||||||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 170 Registered: 02-2003 |
I am a vet, too. Norwegian Navy, Coastal Artillery branch, 79-80. When I was in the Navy, I...... Never mind. I'd say the statute of limitations have long passed, so forget about it. Both sides of this argument have made their (valid) points, but I don't think continuing this discussion will accomplish anything, so I say we end it now. - Axel | ||||||
| James P Groom (Jpg) New Member Username: Jpg Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2003 |
John Lee 1. I did say that I appreciated your examples and would look at Snap On tools. Your posting showed some distinct advantages What more can I say? Are you just looking for a fight? 2. When I said "I" had not seen proof, that meant before your examples. I think that was obvious. 3. Were you in La Junta Colorado around 1974 to 1975? The dealer would not allow purchase of individual wrenches and sockets. The smallest set he would sell was around $100 per month financed. I think he was based out of Colorado Springs about 110 miles away. 4. I did not say the jet mechanic was the most knowledgeable person in the world about tools. At that time he knew much more than I did and I listened to his advice. Just like I read your advice and looked at the links you posted. I am open to advice, that is why I am reading this forum. If I had Snap-On tools and someone showed me something they said was better I would listed to their advice and form my own opinion. 5. It is a Rolex Submariner, my wife gave it to me when I retired from the military. 6. I think even if I did say "wow..." and bought some snap-on tools you would still find something to say about me not being able to appreciate the difference in quality. | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1311 Registered: 04-2002 |
I think everyone should just go have a nice glass of scotch, smoke a good cigar, and then lets talk about that. I'm sure there wouldn't be any differences of opinions on subjects like that....... (I type with sarcasm) | ||||||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 245 Registered: 01-2003 |
Mike - Thanks. Axel - (With God-like title under his name.) As you say good points have been made. I will take your advice. I will lurk on this thread on this subject from now on. Greg - After Axel your advice is best of all. I have Scotch, both single and blended, and a glass. I'll have to borrow one of your cigars though, I am fresh out. -Reed | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 939 Registered: 02-2002 |
a good cuban, a bottle of sambuca, a dog at your feet and good friends to share the spoils of life with....is there anything better? mike w | ||||||
| One_Bad_Metro (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 447 Registered: 02-2002 |
All of that around a good campfire. That is most certainly better! | ||||||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 548 Registered: 05-2002 |
Reed, That is an honorable response and I respect your answer. Owning up to what you did is 90% of the game. Now to this: "1. Sending them back to the Army, or the DOD sounds like it would cost us taxpayers an awful lot while various Govmnt. types figure out what to do with this box of tools. (These tools were written off the Army inventory, when the first idiot left them in an engine intake, a sink elevator coupling, under a rudder pedal, or anywhere else it didn't belong. Regardless, that doesn't make me having them right though.) If anyone has a practical address for such returns, let me (and the rest of us) know." I will be more than happy to provide you with an appropriate address for a speedy and anonymous return of what you have boxed up. I would love to give you mine just to be sure, but you owning up to what you did is good enough for me. IOW: If you don't return them, it is your concience you have to deal with...not me. Thanks Reed and I appreciate your candor. -C | ||||||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1312 Registered: 04-2002 |
Well Reed, I think the biggest issue seems to be the fact that it sounded like you were bragging about stealing tools. I'm not a rocket scientist, or a moderator, but I think that is one of the types of posting that the moderators are trying to avoid. My opinion being said, it sounds like you regret your action, and are planning to atone for it and the rest is within your character and conscious to do and live with. Now, on to the scotch and cigar. While I realize they were not the best, nor the worst, I was enjoying a glass of Glenfiddich 15 year scotch and smoking a Macanudo Maduro Hyde Park cigar when I typed that. Seemed to be just the thing to say at the time. | ||||||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 247 Registered: 01-2003 |
Curtis - I was very sincere in my response, If you have an address e-mail me. Greg - The Scotch was the right suggestion. I'll get back to you with that cigar I borrowed. The Maduros are my favorite. -Reed | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 256 Registered: 03-2003 |
"Were you in La Junta Colorado around 1974 to 1975? The dealer would not allow purchase of individual wrenches and sockets. The smallest set he would sell was around $100 per month financed." This is F'd up. Something is wrong with this dealer. Every Snap-on drug dealer I've ever seen sells in kilo's or dime bags. It's how he gets you addicted. He'll even let you borrow a tool and try it out, because he knows nine times out of 10, you'll end up buying it. If I even so much as look at a particular tool, the Snap-on guy says something like, "John, go ahead and take it now; don't even pay for it; play around with it and see if it works for you; I'll be back next week to see if you want to keep it; if you don't like it, absolutely no problemo about returning it; in fact, you won't even be returning it because you never even bought it; it was more like a tool loan." LOL. Right now, Ho and I are looking at getting a Snap-on tool box. I almost faint when I see the prices. And the Snap-on guy is tempting us with all sorts of deals and stuff like "oh no, don't pay all at once; pay over time, blah, blah, blah". That fucking guy. He smells blood and is going in for the kill. "It is a Rolex Submariner, my wife gave it to me when I retired from the military." Very nice. I love the Submariner. Here's an analogy that you might consider. Your Sub is really nice. It's a top notch watch and it's not a pimp watch. It's sort of like a Snap-on watch. You said you don't slam people who wear Timex, and that's cool. But if someone claims he hasn't seen any proof that a $4,000 Rolex is any better than a $200 Timex, what would your reaction be? | ||||||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 940 Registered: 02-2002 |
i hear tupperware makes a good tool box....hehehe mike w | ||||||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 372 Registered: 10-2002 |
I saw a snap-on truck yesterday and stopped by to check it out. Got a nice catalog and not so nice price list. I knew good stuff wasn't cheap but snap-on stuff was about triple what I had expected! Oh well, maybe one day when all my loot doesn't go into my truck. | ||||||
| One_Bad_Metro (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 449 Registered: 02-2002 |
John- You're presenting an unfair analogy. Timex to Submariner would be like Companion tools to Snap-On Tools. How about Tag Heuer compared to Submariner? I think that is more like Craftsman to Snap-On.  Oh wait...  | ||||||
| James P Groom (Jpg) New Member Username: Jpg Post Number: 14 Registered: 06-2003 |
John Lee The late Mike Royko from Chicago was criticising yuppies for their conspicuous consumption in one of his columns back in the 80's. He told a story about having lunch with a friend who was a lawyer. Mike was amazed at Rolex dealers advertising a lay away plan for 1 year on the watches. He could not understand why anyone would need a year to pay for a watch that only tells you what time it is. The atty went on to brag about the great features of his rolex. Mike then took off his $20 Timex and went over the features of it, he put it on the table and smashed it with the heel of his shoe. He then said something like " at $20 I can get a new one each year and keep up with the technology". I thought the article was hilarious and I agree with both sides. It is kind of ridiculous to pay that kind of money for something that tells time, a Rolex watch is not worth 20 times a Timex watch. looking at the Rolex as jewelry is different, I don't wear earings or any other jewely and this watch will probably last my lifetime. I could have chosen to get a cheaper watch every few years (GPS would be a great feature considering my wifes navigating) but I wanted to have something nice to remember my military retirement. So in answer I would say that the person who thinks the Timex is just as good is right, and a person that wishes to spend $4000 on a Rolex is right as well. Jim Groom | ||||||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Senior Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 315 Registered: 08-2002 |
James you are a tight rope walker extraodinair! | ||||||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 157 Registered: 02-2002 |
I say buy the watch with the face that you can easily read. When you're past 40, you'll understand. My next watch will have to literally TELL me the time. Karen | ||||||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 369 Registered: 01-2003 |
This thread has it all, dweb usage debate, ethics debate, tool debate, now a watch debate. This is the old dweb I fell in love with. | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 257 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I say buy the watch with the face that you can easily read." Well then, Karen, I take it you won't be buying one of THESE any time soon: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/omega/breitling.jpg | ||||||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 664 Registered: 09-2002 |
Holy crap! Is that for telling time in the alternate universe? | ||||||
| Leo (Leo_hallak) Member Username: Leo_hallak Post Number: 96 Registered: 02-2003 |
Nothing like a clean simplistic face. http://www.clan-m4.com/troll/watch/watch1.jpg We were playing with my friends new Fuji S1 this was my favorite shot. -Leo | ||||||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 258 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hehe. Leo goes Uptown with a Moon Watch. I think this has to be my all-time favorite Speedmaster shot: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/omega/GPN-2000-001103.jpg | ||||||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 160 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, Not a chance. Karen | ||||||
| Leo (Leo_hallak) Member Username: Leo_hallak Post Number: 98 Registered: 02-2003 |
John, Who else has a ambassador as cool as Buzz Aldrin.. http://www.csicop.org/articles/20021018-aldrin/ -Leo | ||||||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 374 Registered: 10-2002 |
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| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 260 Registered: 03-2003 |
Oh damn. I didn't know Buzz was so bad ass. Or a southpaw. That's really cool. Maybe this should be my favorite Speedmaster pic: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/omega/buzz.jpg |
