| Author | Message | ||
     Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 45 Registered: 05-2003 |
It's me, AGAIN. I have been asking all these questions about parts, lately about undercarriage protection. All the responses I have received have been a great help (thanks AGAIN), and I think I am beginning to understand some of the puzzle pieces I need to complete puzzle? While I have been trying to unconfuse myself, that children's song about "...legbone connected to the ankle bone, ankle bone connected to the foot bone, foot bone..." has been going thru my mind. With everyones help, I am beginning to get the idea that all the added parts under rover for protection need to be thought out and coordinated together - due to sizes and such so all will fit and be compatible? That being said, perhaps there is a better way for me to ask about all these parts, skid plates, rear bumper, etc? In addition to getting ready for driving lessons in Moab, what I am REALLY preparing my rover for is bb4wa 5-day Hole in Rock Adventure with Bill and Rachel Burke when I leave Moab. Has anyone on Dweb prepared Disco for HIR Adventure? Has anyone gone with bb4wa on the HIR Adventure? Would appreciate any input as I need to unconfuse myself and would like to get going on install of under rover mods. I have not installed anything yet, I am waiting until I know what I am doing in order to make the best choices. Input? Anyone? Just in case anyone thinks this is the dumbest thing that they have ever heard for a newbie to be doing -- don't pick on me -- I don't even know how to do camping (yet)! Thanks, Jamie | ||
| David Marchand (Dmarchand) Member Username: Dmarchand Post Number: 181 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jamie, if you haven't already. I would talk with Rachel (and Bill if you can actually get him) as to what type of modifications 'might' be necessary to complete your adventure with them. Both are very knowledgable on the trails you'll be on and the types of mods you might need. It looks like you have a well prepped DII as it is. I would say the only "essential" under carriage protection would be diff guards. Beyond that, rocksliders come in a close second. If you have a transfer case with the CDL nut on the top, I would highly recommend fitting a CDL locking mechanism. But I think 2002 model years are SOL. Since your driving cross country, make sure you have some essential spare parts and fluids with you. Your truck won't be much help to you if a belt goes or your brakes are worn and ready for changing, or you get some bad gas and have to replace the filter. You can't always count on someone having the parts you might need or the tools to fix it. Make sure you have all of the requisite recovery gear. Too many people seem to discount having the proper gear, and think it is all about the mods to the truck itself. Good luck! | ||
| Monte Blumenfeld (Monteman71) Member Username: Monteman71 Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jamie, I would give Rachel a call and ask her for the little manual that Bill give's out during his course. It will give you lots of information that you are looking for. Just looking at your profile pic I would say to get some Diff covers, front skid plate. I take it that you have a full size spare and a Hi-lift. OOps I see that David is saying the same so I'll shut up now Monte | ||
| Alan Bates (Alanb) Senior Member Username: Alanb Post Number: 256 Registered: 07-2002 |
Get the Hole in the Rock video: http://www.discoweb.org/store/hitr.html | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 714 Registered: 02-2002 |
hey Rover pup, are you planning to take your 4 paw drive Rovers with you on this trip? we did a club event with Bill and he is a great guide as well as a very cool person. he also is very dog friendly as they also have one. we took our 2 Labs with us and they had a good time. Rachel is a wealth of information as well and I also suggest you give her a call or e-mail. She responds very quickly to e-mail. Don't think you'll need alot of stuff to participate in this event. Diff guards and rock sliders highly recommended as both came into play during our trip. have fun! Jaime | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 505 Registered: 08-2002 |
I have been with Bill a few times. He does have a good prep list and either Rachel or Bill can tell you what they recommend for a given trail. I think at this time he recommends ETC or Locker for Hole in the Rock. However in '96 I did it with a completely stock disco (minus front air dam). The trail has likely changed a lot in 7 years. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2002 |
Judging by your profile pic I think your truck is over prepared for the hole. Slap on two of those really nice RN diff guards and you are good to go. OR , dont hit the diffs...  . As far as the rest of the stuff goes. Well , dont think of it as going with a crowd or a guide. Think of it as going alone and what you would need/like to have. Fluids and a nice tool setup are good choices . If you did all the mods yourself then you pretty much know what the common tools that are needed to dissasemble the thing. A good multimeter and lots of rags are the only other things I would recomend... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 654 Registered: 02-2003 |
LOL, kyle having never completed the trail passing out advice. | ||
| Marc M (Mosi) New Member Username: Mosi Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2002 |
If you haven't already, you may want to take your sway bars off. | ||
| Jeffry Scott (Jeffry) Member Username: Jeffry Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2002 |
If you haven't watched the discoweb Hole In the Rock video or DVD, buy it. It really gives you a good idea of that trail - plus it's damn fun to watch. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 350 Registered: 01-2003 |
My wife and I ran hole in the rock over 2 months ago. We did just fine without sliders, they would have been nice for piece of mind, but being careful worked out fine. My d1 has a mild lift, arb on the front and 30" tires, diff guards, and recovery gear. I bonked my rear bumper coming down a step, but it was driver error and didn't do any real damage. You'll probably don't need sliders for HITR but for Moab they would be real nice. I think for the Bill Burke trip you need a CB. Carry lots of water for you and your pups, we took 2 people and 2 pups and there is no water access on the trail, unless you hike down to lake powel at the end, but that would suck to haul water from, steep hike. We carried a single gas jerry can but we didn't need it. Since we did it solo, I carried everything except a spare engine (lol), it's way remote and having gear to fix the truck, or abandon the truck, or bivy at the truck are quite important. When is it? It is pretty damn hot out here in utah right now, it's 105 outside right now. Those large expanses of slickrock will fry you like eggs, bring lots of sun screen and water, the altitude makes the sun stronger than your FL exposure. Also when you get to square dance rock, get out crank the stereo up and dance the night away, my wife and I did that and only our dogs were there to laugh at us. Also get an engle fridge, check it out at expedition exchange, it is great for long trips to carry drinks and food ect. But really awesome for the hot climate of southern Utah. We had ice cold merlot, steaks and fresh grilled veggies at our campsite over looking lake powell, and engle fridge makes your (car) camping life easier and more enjoyable. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 48 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks everyone, Yes, talking to Rachel nonstop. We email several times a day. Speak to Bill as I get to decision making time on each stage. Will be speaking with him next Monday to make final decisions on undercarriage protection. Bill gave me a list of the "big ticket items" when I signed up for trips. I study and become familiar with each "item", ask you all gazillions of questions, etc. Then I get a good idea of what I think would be best for me, then speak with him, and he approves or vetos, then I order/purchase or begin the hunt again. I have installed RoverTym rock sliders (with nerf), luv them. I am out of luck on CDL install. My transfer gear box does not have the right stuff for this. I do have ETC, and Bill says he can get me thru with that. I really don't have enough miles on my rover anyway - so, I would like to keep warranty intact. Re: Undercarriage. During first conversation, was advised to spend the money to get all the skid plates (there are 4 genuine covers). At that time, he thought bumper might make it ok, so not necessary to replace? All 4 skid guard kits have arrived, but have not installed b/c I am not sure that the LR genuine skids are the best way to go? Most recent talk with Bill, he said to make sure pinions and catalytic converters are covered, and if I was not going to replace the rear bumper, to at least remove the end cap. The undercarriage protection is still going right over my head, I do not understand it (yet).  I never even considered trouble driving on the highway?? Doesn't the land rover on call service just come fix me up if I were to have any problems? I don't think I could have worn anything out yet, don't laugh -- I purchased rover June 2002 -- and I only have 5,000 mile miles on it. (yes, it is my daily driver, and my only land vehicle - I just don't drive much.) Is there a place on Dweb that has a list of suggested tools, fluids, parts to take with me? Purchased all necessary recovery gear, and know how to use most of it. I agree that is VERY important, I had that when I was off roading stock (needed it ALOT for that!). Bill will be teaching me to use my winch. I have not gotten around to purchased winch accessory kit yet. I will ask Rachel about the little manual. She sure is nice and a neat person! I had the opportunity to spend an afternoon with her last week in "my neck of the woods". Yes, have full size spare and wheel mounted rear cargo door - same as I'm driving truck now. Have not purchased Hi Lift yet, have a list of odds and ends I will get around to calling John Lee at EE to order from him, waiting until my list is more complete, so that I can do it all at once. Bill said get 60" and mount to front bumper so weight of it will be low. No Videos. Rachel said no, not to watch ANYTHING about terrain out there or I will be too scared when I get there. I am allowed to watch "Unstuck" video (I do have that). Oh YES, most DEFINITLY dogs are going!! We are good team, and never leave each other behind. (Have yet to find a single "human" willing to off road with me.) That was the very first question that I asked Rachel - can dogs go? I reserved "doggie ok" rooms at the hotels I will be staying at in Moab & Fry Canyon. HIR--well, I guess dogs and I will be learning to camp! There is only a small portion of trail on the last day out of HIR that dogs are not permitted. It is part of Canyonland/Elephant Hill(?) (I forget). In any case, there is a road around that portion that I can take to meet back up with my group. Have discussed this extensively with Bill and Rachel. I sort of understand the don't need a lot of stuff on this. Bill said HIR is basically driving in your "pajamas", you wear the same clothes the entire time (oh, YUK!!). Doesn't look like much choice though with recovery gear, supplies, WATER, and such anyway. I have allotted myself the "luxury" of 40# of lightweight stuff to carry on my roof rack. During first conversation, Bill mentioned prep list, but I have not gotten it yet. I will ask Rachel. Yes, ETC, Electronic Traction Control - have that. NO CDL or lockers, no can do on my rover. When it gets that scary, I plan to get out, take dogs with me, and watch Bill from safe distance!! (that is, IF he will let me do that...) Yes, I do agree plan on "being alone" when trouble hits. I have had much practice in emergency prep and situations, and IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT IF ANYTHING DOES GO WRONG, NO ONE ELSE WILL BE AROUND! I am big believer in "plan for the worst and hope for the best". Techs did installs, I put on roof rack. I do have tools - craftsman 151 piece mechanics tool kit (btw, no matter what I do to that blasted tool kit, every single one of them falls out when I open it). Now I know why I got such a good price on it at Sears outlet?? No, I don't know what tools are need for dissasembly. I don't know how to fix ANYTHING. I DO KNOW how to change my air filter, but I don't know if that will change when snorkel is installed? What is a mutimeter? Again, which fluids? What are sway bars?? Again, following advice not to watch videos of HIR. Rachel is right, I probably would get scared. I do have CB, but it is too big for all else I will need to take out there, so I need to find a smaller one -- hoping I can still get weather band on it. Amen on the water. We are used to taking in massive amounts of water everyday due to our climate conditions. That hot?? Gee Whiz. We will be there in September. I know we will be crossing alpines on HIR trip, I wonder if it will be cold up there?? Square dance rock?? Purchased frig/freezer from Rachel, it just arrived along with safari snorkel. Planning on have it hard wired. Mine is ARB, 42 qt(?), I think Engel and ARB are the same? I need to order footprint/transit slidelock from John Lee. Do you have that installed? How did you install it in your rover? I have not even opened the box yet, I am too busy trying to figure other stuff out. I just hope it is much smaller than the box it arrived in! Food all sounds really great -- but, how did you have the energy to cook like that after off roading? There is a lake out there? How far away? Hike as in walking? or Hike as in challenging trails? Is the water cold? Can you swim in it? How in the world does anyone cope with no shower for that many days (oh, YUK, YUK, YUK!). Are there any animals or critters out there that I should be aware of since dogs are going?? Back to Undercarriage (HELP!): During initial conversation, Bill said spend the money and cover under rover. I asked about genuine skid plates/covers, he said yes. At that time, he also thought rear bumper would be ok. We discussed only replacing it if I crashed it up out there. Specifically, I asked lets say I leave it, mess it up - will it cost more to fix and replace later after damage than replacing before trip. He said no, so I was going to leave it as is. Reconsidering that now, big time. Please keep in mind, that although I took notes during our initial conversation, I had NO CLUE what he was talking about, so I could have made mistakes in my notes. I just went and looked, this is what I ordered from LR: Front Axel Guard (from what I understand it also covers front diff) Front Steering Guard Rear Diff Fuel Tank Guard During our last conversation, Bill said to make sure that those do cover the pinions and catalytic converters, and if they do not - to purchase covers for those. I don't even know what those are yet, or if the covers I ordered will cover them? When Rachel saw my rover last week, she said I may need a winch skid plate, like ARB has for their bumpers? I did not know that winch skid plates existed? I have yet to understand how my trailer hitch fits in the picture with changes? As I said, I have not picked up the guards that I ordered. I am having cows over the cost of undercarriage protection. I am willing to spend what I NEED to to protect my rover - I do plan on keeping it for a long time, and I have very little mileage on it (yet). However, I feel that the cost of the undercarriage is way too expensive to make a mistake in choosing/purchasing/installing the wrong parts. Did that make sense the way I worded it? I do want to protect my undercarriage, and feel that it is extra important for me - since my strengths lie in areas other than mechanics. I can't take the chance like some of you might be able to since you all seem so good at fixing things. It is pretty much guaranteed - if I try to fix something like that, I will only break it more. Do you know what the worst case scenario would be if I left my stock bumper on and banged the heck out of it? Thanks SO MUCH for all your help. Some of this is as clear as mud to me. But, it all was when I started, and some stuff I know pretty good now, so I just have to keep faith that the same will happen in the areas that I am currently confused on. So, is it really pretty and awesome out there?? Is there lots of neat stuff out there?? That's my motive in all of this -- I just want to see and experience incredible stuff. I have only been learning to off road so that I can get "out there", wherever "there" is. I can't wait to see the sky while on HIR trip, I think there are going to be lots of stars visible! I also want to hear what "quiet" really sounds like. The terrain out there looks really cool. When I inquired about bb4wa trips, I asked is this like really hard, scary terrain or is it kind of like peaceful sightseeing out in the middle of nowhere. He said both. I just hope that I am not so busy being scared crossing those places that I miss the scenery! Gee Whiz, that was a long post. Hope I did not miss anything. THANKS again, Jamie | ||
| Toby Walsh (Toby) New Member Username: Toby Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi Jamie, I'm very jealous of your upcoming trip. Have fun. Coupla notes - you can have lockers installed in your front and rear diffs, just no CENTRE diff lock. If you did have f & r lockers, ETC would work to equalise wheel spin speed between f & r axles. At the moment, with no lockers, ETC works to equalise wheel speed b/w all 4 wheels. If you lock e.g. front diff, then both front wheels are spinning at the same speed, so you are doing the job of ETC for it - just takes some of the workload off the ETC system. There are many types of diff locks available for D2's with ETC. They have all been covered many times. Most common? ARB manual lockers, truetracs and Detroit lockers. On my D1 I'm planning on installing maxi-drive's, but I'm in Australia where they are made. Installing lockers opens a whole new can of worms. You have to then decide whether your drivetrain can handle the added strain. Secondly, sway bars are essentially steel bars that add stiffness to your suspension for better handling on road. They also limit articulation for off road. Some people take them off permanently to increase articulation off road, others install quick disconnects to allow the sway bars to be used on road and not used off road - best of both worlds. You can either make your own sway bar quick disconnects (see tech section) which might be an easy project for you to tackle to get your hands dirty. You can also buy aftermarket quick disconnects. Do a search for "sway bar" or "quick disconnect" and you'll find heaps on info. Hope that helps. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 678 Registered: 02-2003 |
jamie.. you are sort of frantic. freaking out about planning a little bit. you do not NEED the undercarige protection besides the diff guards and sliders. the rest of it will be fine, short of you rolling the truck. you should only need sliders, Diff guards, 2" lift. 235/85 or 265/75 tires. AT's will work so will MT's if you get stuck bill can pull you out. check the EE site for engel and you will see the different ways to mount the fridge. if you are running the fridge all the time you might want to consider a dual battery system, or at least an optima yellow top deep cycle battery. you personally do not need the pinion skid, winch or winch skid or transmission skid for this trail. you do not need the snorcle. though, if adding dual battery it will help free up some space. i feel you are so green to offroading that if you were to purchase all of this stuff before you know if you even like the sport it could be a serious waste of money. part of the reasons for people to go with bill is to see what they need to purchase. after this trip it should be clear what you want. have you "trimmed" your front bumper? do you have SLS? -rob | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 720 Registered: 02-2002 |
"I have installed RoverTym rock sliders (with nerf), luv them." - you'll be glad you did. "I do have ETC, and Bill says he can get me thru with that." - he'll get you though many things that you didn't think you could do. "Doesn't the land rover on call service just come fix me up if I were to have any problems? I don't think I could have worn anything out yet, don't laugh" - no laughing! when my D90 had the LR Roadside assistance, it was just taken to the nearest LR dealer for repair. no repair on the side of the road unless its a flat or out of gass. might have changed sine 1995. give the number a call and see what they say. "Is there a place on Dweb that has a list of suggested tools, fluids, parts to take with me?" - not sure here, however, there is a nice write-up here http://www.roxs.us/vehiclekit.html. "I have not gotten around to purchased winch accessory kit yet." - need at least a tree strap as shown in the Un-Stuck video. "Oh YES, most DEFINITLY dogs are going!! There is only a small portion of trail on the last day out of HIR that dogs are not permitted. It is part of Canyonland" - yeah, the Park folks are real pricks on this issue. However, its only a fine if they catch you and depending where you are, the odds go down pretty quickly. "I don't know how to fix ANYTHING." - however, Bill does! so don't freak out as he is a very good mechanic. "When it gets that scary, I plan to get out, take dogs with me, and watch Bill from safe distance!!" - you will have much more confidence than you have now after his instruction. have fun and don't worry. "Are there any animals or critters out there that I should be aware of since dogs are going??" - none that we saw. Bill will let you know what to watch out for in certain areas. "I do have CB, but it is too big for all else I will need to take out there, so I need to find a smaller one -- hoping I can still get weather band on it." - handhelds work great as Bill's setup has much power so you can always hear him. get a handheld and hook it up to your external antenna. your LR radio should already have a WB on it. "I have yet to understand how my trailer hitch fits in the picture with changes?" - hitch has "hit" in it and it makes for a nice built-in skid plate on the rear. "Do you know what the worst case scenario would be if I left my stock bumper on and banged the heck out of it?" - worst case it would give you an excuse to buy another one! "Mine is ARB, 42 qt(?), I think Engel and ARB are the same? I need to order footprint/transit slidelock from John Lee. Do you have that installed? How did you install it in your rover?" - pretty sure they are the same. we have the Engel version from EE and had no problem with it on our trip without the transit slidelock deal. just have your dealer make the rear cigarette lighter be constant on so you can plug it in when the LR is not running. "So, is it really pretty and awesome out there?? Is there lots of neat stuff out there?? That's my motive in all of this -- I just want to see and experience incredible stuff." - JUST INCREDIBLE!! you'll have a blast. "I just hope that I am not so busy being scared crossing those places that I miss the scenery!" - Bill will make sure you're not scared and that you enjoy the scenery. He also will point out the various rock formations, types of flowers, etc. which is why you need a CB. OK Rover pup. There is a saying that getting to the destination is as much fun as the destination or something like that. Enjoy the preparation stage as well as the trip out. There is a club called the Birmabright Club where there is alist of other LR owners that you can call on for help. join up here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/birmabright/ HAVE FUN!! Jaime | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 515 Registered: 08-2002 |
Shoot, all I took on hole in the rock was a tent, backpack, cooler, tow strap and a stock disco minus the plastic on the front. I did have one piece of protection... the front diff guard. Like Kyle said, if that is your truck in your profile you are good to go. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 359 Registered: 01-2003 |
Yea, dogs are allowed on BLM land but in the national parks, Canyon Lands and Arches, they are allowed on leash only on the paved walk areas in parking lots. The end of HIR is in the Glen Canyon National recreation area (Lake Powell) we left our dogs off leash but we had seen no one and they do listen to us and I hauled out their poop just like I hauled out ours. I think your okay with off leash in Glen Canyon, but it is VERY enforced in the parks. As far as critters, rattle snake are about all you have to worry about. There is western tranchulas spiders, as I saw my one pup eat one in southern utah, but the pups will be fine, just keep an eye on them. Any other critters will be long gone and scared of you and your truck. The Lake is Lake Powell, it's an artifical lake created for power generation and to hold water back for irrigation rights, its one damn big lake, fun to sea kayak on. The HIR trail goes to the "hole in the rock". The Hole was cut by morman settlers to drive there wagons and cattle though glen canyon. Glen canyon, now full of water is like a slick rock version of the grand canyon. The rim is like 1000 feet (?) above the floor of the canyon at the point where you can't drive anymore, think cliffs and verticle walls. The Hole can be hiked down to the lake, but its like over a mile(?) and good and steep. You can see wagon wheel marks and the tooling marks and steps cut by hand into the rock to pass through, quite remarkable when you consider this was done in the mid 1800's. It's a way cool hike and humbling, don't be afraid to hike around when you stop. Wheeling isn't hard, just sit in the truck and let it do the work, besides half the fun is getting somewhere is to hiking around and explore it. Square dance rock is a flat area that was used by those settlers to dance on and socialize when they took time off from hacking out the "hole". They set up camp near by to cut the hole out. Check out the history at; http://historytogo.utah.gov/holeinrock.html I back country back pack and mountaineer, so when I married my wife, who loves hiking just not long backpacking trips, I needed a way to combine back country travel with more convence so that we both could enjoy the outdoors, four wheeling was it. The biggest revelation I had was that I didn't have to carry food on my back, so cooking went from ramain noodles, to steak and asapargus and long grain rice with wine (read obivious wife influence) its easy and loads of fun, get a camp chef stove, portable table, camp cookwear, and off you go. I even own folding wine cups now! http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=237536&storeId=8000&cat alogId=40000008000&langId=-1 I agree with Rob, don't sweat it so much. I have seen lots of stock trucks running around Moab, one was mine. Sure mods will get you into different areas, but what you did right now will get you through almost all of it, I ran the golden spike trail (which is one of the harder trails in that area) with 95 D1 build like your truck. I even had 245/70/16 tires, no sliders and open diffs on that trail. The ARB and mild lift and front diff guard plus being careful with my lines got me through okay. Learn how you want to wheel and use your truck, then build it up. By the way I owned a ARB fridge too and they are the exact same as an engle fridge, get the cozy cover to protect it and insult it for those times when you can't run it. I just straped it down in the back, I added tie down points to my load area. However I always wanted one of the slide lock thingys. We took ours on a 5 week driving trip from SLC UT to Alaska last year, I used it in our Audi A4 wagon, with a stock battery the whole time, we unplugged it at night and it keep our food just fine. We even went on a 5 day hiking trip in Denali national park can back, although it had nothing inside that could spoil, it was still cool, not fridge temps, but cool. Call John Lee up and talk to him about what you could use for this trip, he'll be a good resource of advice without over selling you stuff. September I hope will be cooled than now, because its damn hot outside right now! I think you'd be suprised how cold it will get at night. Don't be afraid of camping, its quite magical in southern Utah. The stars are so bright and vibrant you can't make out constellations because they are drowned out in so many other stars that you can't see anywhere on the east cost because of light pollution. Also check out these pics, they are of the trail; http://www.discoweb.org/hitr2002/index.htm | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 49 Registered: 05-2003 |
Rob, Skittish as I get closer to this? Most definitely. Freaking out?? Only about the things that I do not understand yet. Learning about this from Florida has been a challenge. The west will be totally new territory for me. Extreme training and much experience in other areas gives me a good perspective on possible hazards. I strongly believe in preparing for them so that they remain "possibilities", not "probabilities". No matter how, where, or when - most accidents are caused by "judgement errors". I feel that it is well worth the effort and frustration to become informed. Don't keel over please: I am licensed commercial helicopter pilot and flight instructor. I don't believe in messing around when it comes to heavy equipment on the ground any more than I do in the sky. I have much respect for ALL of you "experienced" off roaders. IMHO, this off roading can/could be even more dangerous than flying. In the sky, you'd have to work pretty darn hard to run into something, and you can also stay way clear of "yahoos" that don't know what they are doing (like me). In just about everything that involves training with equipment, there are 2 schools of thought -- -train the student, then teach them on the more advanced equipment -get the equipment, train the student ON/IN the equipment that student will use from the start of training, using the "building block approach" to training as the student becomes more proficient. I believe in the second method, and it has worked well for me. I also believe that there are fewer "accidents" using this approach, because when a tight spot comes (and it will) the operator will need to rely on "the feel" of equipment, and work with it "as one" or as an "extension of oneself". Going overboard? Yes, you bet I am. Somebody out there will benefit from that someday -- I will be someone that others can trust and depend on while on the trail. Have the lift, 265/75 Muds, have installed one yellow top - have been advised how to check to see if I will need to install dual battery set up after frig is in. Snorkel will be a benefit in my local conditions (much sand and dust) along with water crossings. I just need to find an elephant sticker to put on it... It has been my intention to install all of the equipment that I know I would eventually add - so that I can get the benefit of Bill's training and expertise while I am out there. I know myself, and I would regret doing otherwise - a good example is my winch. I know that I would have added winch eventually, and I would end up wishing that I had gotten Bill's training in using it. My mods have been supervised specifically for this trip. I flipped out for a while over every section, the front bumper replacement was a humongous obstacle for me. But, I got over it, learned, made my choice, and am extremely comfortable with it. This has been the case for each section of my truck that I have changed. Stock bumper is off, replaced with TJM 15. I can tell you most assuradly that I am not wasting money doing this. However, spending it ouches!! For me, this is an investment in living life. Am I green? Oh yes, most definitely FOR SURE, and not afraid to say so - doing otherwise would only put myself and others in danger. I have had the experience of observing a few "supposedly" knowledgable and experienced off roaders who professed to be "excellent" (not green) off roaders. I will be as kind as possible, and say - I am glad that I observed them from a safe distance and was not near them on the trail. I may be green now, but that will change as I learn. And of course, the addition of some pink spray paint always helps!! Last, but not least. I ALREADY KNOW I LIKE THIS. I did not know it was possible to have so much fun on the ground!! As always, THANKS for the input, Jamie ps. I will go right now to figure out what SLS is so that I can tell you if I have it! | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 680 Registered: 02-2003 |
SLS is the self leveling on your D2 you might not have that option. if you do it can be a little fun on the trail, just think you should be aware of it. you sound much better now in response, but you have to admit your first reply you were really repeating yourself and it had me worried. shit, you got the winch bumper and all that other jazz liek the other folks said your truck is ready, just make sure you are. the person above mentioned that you can walk to the hole in the rock, this is wrong, the actuall hole in the rock is on the otherside of the trail you are taking. there are two HIR trails. one can be done in a subaru and the one you are doing requires high ground clearance. i've dont them both and the one you are doing is better snorcle in florida makes sense. p.s. ask bill what a couple of dead horses smell like. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 360 Registered: 01-2003 |
Snorkle in utah makes sense too, I want one because of all the damn dust, I seem to put an airfilter in every 2 months. Hey if you have the $ to set it up now and you want it a certain way go for it. But I don't have those kind of resources so my build up has been slow and deliberate, I get the toys I need to be able to run harder trails as I learn to drive and recover my truck. In my mind safety is the most important thing, so spending money on good hiking boots, water filter, recovery gear, repair tools, spare parts is more important than buying underside protection or a snorkle. You're going the right way, BB will teach you what to do, his unstuck video is great. My thought is your truck with that bumper/winch and sliders should be able to tackle the trail just fine. Nice pics Rob, makes me want to brave the heat and head south this weekend. Looking at those pics makes me wonder what the hell I was thinking going without a wheeling partner. We survived, just need to get a helo pad on the roof of the disco. http://www.discoweb.org/hitr2002/rob/moab019.jpg How does one spell snorkle (snorcle) anyway? | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 681 Registered: 02-2003 |
i have no idea how to spell. the letter c is redundant. i dont know why it is in the english language. it screews me up all the time. and, those fin's looked so much better the day after with a bright blue sky behind it. didn't take any pictures i'm pissed. now bryce canyone i got plenty of pictures. just didn't send them into discoweb. i highly reccomend bryce for those that have the time to hike inside of it. looking from the rim just doesn't just it. rd | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 364 Registered: 01-2003 |
Bryce is quite stunning, as is all of the national parks in Utah. I liked Bryce because of its access. I did the Under the Rim backcountry trail couple summers ago, fun hike. I have a picture of my disco in Bryce, taken right after I hit a deer on the way into the park at night. I got lots of stares in the vistors center as my truck was covered with "deer" and smelled something aweful. I am hiking the narrows trail in Zion NP in about month, I am getting really excited to do that. Fun thing is I get to "wheel" a 38 mile dirt road to the trailhead, it's one remote trail. I'll have to park it on a big rock on the side of the road so I can get some dweb worthy pics. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 685 Registered: 02-2003 |
please stop. i can't go and now i am wishing i could i'll do a little smokey mountain thing next month, best i can do this year. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 365 Registered: 01-2003 |
Its why I moved from PA Harrisburg area 3 years ago to be close to this stuff. I loved hiking the Smokey's, just wanted to see the west too. Problem is you could spend a life time exploring the Wastach mtns and not see it all, moab area is probably worse, every trail I run I want to bike it, every trail I bike I want to hike. I wish I could get someone to just pay me to hike instead of this work crap, I'd get alot more done if that was my daily job. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 686 Registered: 02-2003 |
indeed... about once a year i get fed up and swear i'm going to quit everything and hike the AT , then i talk some sense into myself and remain unhappy for the rest of the year | ||
| Greg French (Gregfrench) Senior Member Username: Gregfrench Post Number: 507 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jamie... What's the deal with this trip? Are there any links you could refer me to? Sounds like something I would like to do as well. Thanks. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 518 Registered: 08-2002 |
Greg: www.bb4wa.com | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 58 Registered: 05-2003 |
Wow, thanks for all the good info - sure wish my schedule would slow down a bit so that I could get to checking out all the sites referenced. Should be enough "homework" to keep me busy for a while anyway?? Rob, I TOTALLY understand about the repeating myself business. I have much empathy for you on that one since I talk to myself. It really gets bad when I start answering myself too! Re: the spelling, I have run into the same problem when typing in a post. After also being kicked off line during strong storms - when I had just about completed typing in a post - then losing the entire thing -- I have started typing them elsewhere, splitting the screen, so that I could SEE what I was asking/responding to, then copying my post into the box. Andy, I got big case of giggles on the spending money on boots and stuff. This is why: I have probably the ugliest boots that you have ever seen, I have had them forever it seems, and they look like the old construction worker type boots. I call them my "lucky boots", don't even ask, I have NO CLUE why I named them that so many years ago. I can wear them for days if circumstances call for it, always have them with me, along with 2 pairs of sock liners (good for underwater and WET boots), and wool socks (they stay cool in the heat). Last March before my first "off road" event, I stopped to pick up a snake bite kit (since I would be responsible for carrying my own medical supplies) at our local ($$$$$$$) adventure store. They have a huge boot department, and I started thinking perhaps I should spend the money to treat myself for some nice boots for off roading? (spending money on equipment is one thing, but stuff to wear seems like a waste to me, it only gets destroyed anyway - UNLESS OF COURSE IT IS PINK!). So the guy shows me the best boots they have, too cool - they were even totally waterproof! I was sure I was going to WANT them, they must be awesome boots for $269? I put them on and they were as hard as rocks, I don't think I would have lasted 1 hour in them out on the trail. In comparison, my boots feel like slippers - and like I said, I can wear them for days when necessary without discomfort. I'm sticking with my ugly lucky boots. Maybe they really are "lucky", anyway, I've made it thru lots of icky stuff unscathed when wearing them!! Oh, dear -- now a post about biking the area, which opens up another can of worms for me! I have been wondering about bringing my bikes out there -- which I have been trying to talk myself out of since I've got so many other things to deal with. I much prefer my road bike for everyday use, but I do have mountain bike that I ride only when it is raining - it is PIA to clean up grit from road bike after rain rides. Since I live in flatlands, who knows if I could even ride mountain bike up a hill - BUT --- IS ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE TOTALLY ADDICTED TO NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC ADVENTURE MAGAZINE??? Latest issue just arrived in mail (August 2003). NOt only does it have the "Best of the Rockies" as cover story, it has info on biking Utah/Moab!!! Gee whiz, this is not the first I have seen about biking that area, what does one do when one wants to do everything?? Forget helo pad on rover top, this is what I NEED: private free cargo plane that will just let me drive fully loaded D2 into plane, and fly dogs and I out there. Then pick us up a month later?? Then I could just focus on being extremely annoying passenger!! Thanks again - have to get back to work or else I'll have to fire myself, Jamie | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 59 Registered: 05-2003 |
Toby, Thanks for your instuctional response about lockers. I have been reading "instruction manuals" (my term!) by Tom Sheppard. I'm still having difficulty grasping the many types of drive system possibilites - and how they work. Kind of hard just reading about it/seeing it "on paper" or "in theory". I have faith that understanding will come eventually. SINCE YOU ARE IN AUSTRALIA, perhaps you have some info on one of the other things I am trying to figure out solutions for. I have TJM 15 winch bumper, which DOES NOT come WITH front recovery points. Since TJM comes from your country, do you know of anyone there that has successfully mounted front recovery points on TJM winch bumper?? (that don't mess something else up in the process)?? Thanks again, Jamie | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 721 Registered: 02-2002 |
Rover pup, John at EE can fix you up with "The Shackle Mounting brackets are to be fitted only to bumpers strong enough to accommodate the pulling forces of a recovery, such as the heavy-duty ARB Winch Bars or TJM Bull Bars." Also get the backing plate. Don't forget about the tree strap - EE also sells a really nice one. Jaime | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks Jaime, I am pretty sure that I am going to go that route. I did get a chance to check the site when you mentioned it last week. BTW, I just got that mountain biking article wrong. IT IS EXACTLY WHERE ANDY SAID HE BIKES. In case anyone is interested: National Geographic Adventure Magazine August 2003 THE BEST OF THE ROCKIES (Mountain Biking: Utah's Wasatch. Wasatch Freewheeling. Moab? What's a Moab? When Salt Lake City Mountain bikers crave some some of the Rockie's best riding, they head out their back door) Many articles in the magazine during the past year are what convinced me that I just have to see these places! I just LUV this magazine because it is about places that we really CAN have the hope of getting to, as well as interesting gear and stuff. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/ If you can get a copy of the issue for March 2003, it is AWESOME. (Four corners country -- Best of the West 21 Great Escapes - Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Canyonlands, San Juan Mountains, Lake Powell, Moab...and More! Plus exploring Utah's Mystery Mesa by David Roberts) | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 370 Registered: 01-2003 |
Jamie, If your interested in biking the wasatch let me know. My wife, my 2 pups and I always love it when people visit and we can show them our "backyard". Moab is just as incredible to road bike in, as it is to mountain bike. Go down wall street or pot ash road (sr128) you have the colorado river on one side and 1300' sandstone cliffs on the other, even anastazi rock carvings mid route. Also fun is seeing wheelers entering the moab rim trail from across the colorado river. Take a mtn bike, ride Gemini Bridges, point to point all down hill, not to hard. More of a challenge, try Klondike Bluffs, out and back climb up see arches NP and ride down. Want it really hard, Slickrock, poison spider, porcupine rim, ... lots of those rides. Can't remember the name of the trail, and I've never ridden it, but there is a trail out of moab that offers like 10000 ft of verticle climbing and a max attitude of like 12000' with 8000' of descent in 50 mind numbing miles. I'll stick to the cargo plane for that kind of climbing. http://www.utahmountainbiking.com | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 404 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now how did I miss Rob trying to bust my chops.... Its Utah Rock Rob. I have been over plenty of Utah Rock. And Some Canada Rock , and some VA rock , and some CA rock , and some MD rock , etc , etc.... You talk alot of shit for a guy that is scared to leave his state in his Rover... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 694 Registered: 02-2003 |
fact is you only know the first easiest 1/3 of this trail and are pissed that i know the whole thing, and the other side for that matter. how's that ford pick up running? oh i forgot.. and that rangie? damn i forgot again... lol rd | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm , Rob , You know that from here out I am calling you "Mag Fag". Yeah , thats right. I just added up all that barrens invite shit. And you got the one trail , I'll give you that. I can still go back and run thew whole thing in my Disco. Can you ? Bitch! Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 699 Registered: 02-2003 |
your disco cant make it pittsburgh and back to DC, let alone utah. and talk to your boy john lee about the mag shit,,, hmm and were you not in an issue? LOL i just wanted ot go and watch the others try to make the cover... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK , I hear you MAG Fag.. And I drive the distance to the Burg every day in my truck going back and forth to work... What happened to the "Not going in any mud or water ever again" thing ? Am I witnessing the power of publication ? lol what a fag... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 65 Registered: 05-2003 |
Time out for a moment, PLEASE. THE MOST ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY COOLEST THING I have read about off roading is on page 10 of the 4 Wheeler's Bible by Jim Allen: "Most four-wheelers will strip their own rig of parts to get you going again." I interpreted that to be the HIGHEST COMPLIMENT one could ever make to and of THE PARTICIPANTS. | ||
| Toby Walsh (Toby) New Member Username: Toby Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2003 |
Jamie, I don't have a TJM, and I don't know anyone that does personally, although I do see them around. I've got an ARB airbag model which comes with recovery points. However, most 4wdrivers in Oz don't like the idea of recovery points on bumpers. Some people tell anecdotal stories of bumpers being ripped off chassis. Dunno how reliable these stories are. I don't have them yet, but I'm going to get chassis mounted JATE rings. These are derived from military applications, where they're used to airlift rovers under helicopters, so it's an idea close to your heart ;). Here's some links with info: http://www.landroverstuff.com/jaterings.htm http://www.expeditionexchange.com/action4/indexmain.htm (look 2/3 of the way down or search for "JATE") When shopping around for these, I found a large variation in prices locally, so do your homework. Somewhere on the internet I found these part numbers for Land Rover JATE rings: RRC3237 "lifting and lashing ring" (x4, 2 front, 2 rear) BH110281L 10mm bolt (x4) WC110061L spacer (x2 for front rings) NY110041L nyloc nut (x4) All up, the best price I found for these was around US$180. Not cheap, but not too bad for sturdy recovery points. Most vehicles I've seen in Oz have 3rd party recovery points. Usually a hook welded and/or bolted to the chassis. Most 4wd accessory shops should be able to hook you up (pun intended) with these type of products. The most common recovery in Australia would be a sand recovery using a snatch strap, since we have so many beaches and it's so popular to drive on them. Loads on a recovery system when snatching in sand are probably very high, so strong recovery points are a must. This is why a lot of people shy away from bumper mounted points. One last thing - I've seen a few pics of failed recovery points embedded in either the towed or towing vehicle. I've also heard warnings from various experts on the dangers of snatching as used in mud and sand recoveries. From all the accounts, it's potentially very dangerous, just like winching or using Hi-lift jacks. Maybe more so than winching, because you're using an elastic strap. Ask Bill Burke about them. I'm sure he'll have a few stories to tell ... Hope that helps. | ||
| Toby Walsh (Toby) New Member Username: Toby Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2003 |
Oh, one more thing Jamie. You might have to find out before ordering if JATE rings will fit on if you're putting on underbody protection. One might interfere with the other. | ||
| Toby Walsh (Toby) New Member Username: Toby Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2003 |
Arggh! I just realised that the JATE rings (esp. the part numbers I listed) might not fit D2's. I always just think in terms of my D1. You'd better check with the dealer. Sorry! | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 67 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks Toby, I will be speaking with Bill later today and I will ask about that. Makes much sense to me, I too have heard stories about bumpers ripped off. Did you see the cool photo on Dweb a few months ago that showed 2 rovers and sling op in process? I just thought that was something I would like to try (ha ha), located military surplus rings for sale somewhere on web, and emailed both to person higher up. Not only was my "idea" totally nixed, but I received photo back of higher up's face on Tom Cruise body - letting me know that I had fallen for another "doctored" photo. Gee whiz... I have no proof, but I am just convinced that the SUV's in all those yuppie commercials are being flown in to make it look like they can handle tough terrain. But, what do I know?? I can't even tell what is real and what is not real in photos! Driving on beaches? That's brave -- how do you combat the exposure salt air and saltwater?? Thanks, Jamie | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 672 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jamie, I noticed you mentioned you located military surplus rings for sale somewhere on the web. I'm not sure if you meant they were also used (I assume they were suplus and never used) but thought that I'd add this piece of advise if they were. I would steer clear from them. For stuff like that or shackles or recovery straps/winch ropes, I would always buy new. At least that way you know what you're starting out with. With used stuff, like climbing carabiners or ropes, you don't necessarily know what kind of stresses they've been put under so they could be potentially on their last legs or beyond and you probably don't want to be finding out in the middle of a recovery. Just my $0.02 | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 413 Registered: 11-2002 |
You have a winch , a cable and a hook. Why would you need a front reco point ? Thats your reco point... If it smokes you can use the hook as the attachment point to be dragged... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 70 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks Alan, I have no clue if they were used or new. I was never able to find the website again, which I am quite sure was a very good thing! I'd never REALLY do that anyway, the idea just amused me to no end! Jamie | ||
| Toby Walsh (Toby) New Member Username: Toby Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi Jamie, Most of our population (like 90%) live on the coastal plains (i.e. within say 60 miles of the coast). I live 1 mile from the beach, so salt air is an everyday proposition. At least we have a hill between us and the beach. My parents live on top of a hill near the beach and when storms come through, the whole house gets a coating of salt spray. We're not so bad off (sheltered in a valley), but still have to watch out for rust. Driving on beaches just means that you have to wash the car thoroughly after a trip. It's not so bad unless you go in the water, which is a definite no-no unless there's no other way around it. I've never driven in the ocean, and hope to never have to with the Disco. Some people do so for fun, but I just hope I never have to buy a car from them. BTW, that's one thing we have to watch out for when buying an SUV in Oz. A lot of people use them for towing boats, and often people (like my dad) don't wash their vehicle down after unloading and loading boats. I'd still prefer sand and beach driving than driving on salted roads in North American winters. That must be hell on the undercarriage. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 380 Registered: 03-2002 |
i think jamie was looking for front recovery point solutions because she wants to be as prepared as possible for her offroad adventures... and ounce of prevention... i think it is great that she wants to carry a gun to a knife fight. | ||
| Todd Phenneger (Toddp) Member Username: Toddp Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jamie, I just came into this tread. But I read about you asking where you can read up on recommended fluids, tools, etc to bring. Oh yea, and YES I'm addicted to National Geographic Adventure. I havent read the latest issue yet though as I let my subscription lapse. But back to sites to look at. I would suggest you also look at www.landroverclub.net I KNOW< its not Discoweb. But its got some useful info on repairs and offroading. And can I suggest some booties for the pups, I imagine their tender paws will thank you after being on hot sandpaper all day. :-) l8r TOdd Todd | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 76 Registered: 05-2003 |
I just want front recovery points so that I can decorate the front of my truck with neon pink shackles to match the back of my truck...  |
