| Author | Message | ||
     Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 215 Registered: 02-2002 |
IN ARGUABLY one of the most controversial motoring decisions in recent times, the Land Rover has been named the greatest car of all time by BBC TV's Top Gear program. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6834735%255E401,00.html I'm sure this will generate some interesting discussion, both here and on other boards. - Mark | ||
| Kai Dussling (Kai) Member Username: Kai Post Number: 76 Registered: 06-2002 |
vw bug | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 398 Registered: 01-2003 |
I thought these quotes were amusing in light of the current direction of the company... "Experts from Top Gear said the Land Rover had all the elements necessary for the award, including function, design, durability, engineering supremacy and soul." Function and soul? Then why do they need to add more and more electronic gizmos? (ace,sls,etc, ifs,irs) ... "The current crop of Land Rovers – Range Rover, Discovery, Freelander and Defender – can trace their roots back to the original Land Rover." Since when did the orginal LR's have IFS and IRS or optional 65 series tires?... "And there is still more to come, with an additional model for the Land Rover range plus an all-new Discovery wagon due in 2004" What, a new tradition of selling out it's good name? Don't get me wrong, I'd like a rr3 or freelander, or 2004 discovery as a commutter/ski car and use my D1 as an expedition/trail rig. But the new LR's don't have the soul of a series truck. At least the discovery 1 you are still allowed to feel the "soul" and it's "workhorse ablities". Oh well, times change and the market demand drives design, it's just said to see because a lot of great car designs get canned or altered till you can't even see the what originally created the passion for the vehicle in the first place. | ||
| Dan Armbruster (Dan_armbruster) Member Username: Dan_armbruster Post Number: 235 Registered: 04-2003 |
That is totally rediculous! I love my disco, but no way in hell can it ever be considered best vehicle ever. For the all around best car I would pick the current BMW 5-series. Land rovers might win for the best looking trucks but no way best vehicle ever with the number of problems and the economics of such horrible gas mileage per horsepower. | ||
| Christopher Boese (Christopher) Member Username: Christopher Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2002 |
Here's the story from the Top Gear site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/greatest/winner.shtml. Notice the other "contenders." It's a very small, and strange list. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 419 Registered: 02-2002 |
1963 split window Sting-Ray. IMBO e | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 120 Registered: 04-2003 |
Guys, (Dan) you cant simply use your experience with the NAS Disco. The Land Rover won (all of them).. which has a 50 year plus history far beyond what you mention.. There are plenty (the majority) of Land Rovers out there that do not have the bad mileage or horsepower problems you mention. Dont read an international artical with USA glasses on. Most of the worlds Land Rovers today are diesel, and are you really going to say that the new Disco's and Rangies lack horsepower? I think not... The Tdi's and Td5's also have plenty of horsepower. oh well.. stepping off soapbox now... | ||
| Dan Armbruster (Dan_armbruster) Member Username: Dan_armbruster Post Number: 236 Registered: 04-2003 |
Sorry I shoulda made a more "international" approach to the subject, but I find it extremely hard to believe that land rover could compete with some of the german car companies. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2002 |
The McLaren F1 is the runner-up? The greatest vehicle of ALL time? What happened to the Model T Ford or VW Beetle? | ||
| Adam Ross (Discodriveradam) Member Username: Discodriveradam Post Number: 82 Registered: 01-2003 |
I feel your pain Greg. My vote would have to go to a '56 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing. Lipstick red, tan interior...I NEED one of those. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1775 Registered: 02-2002 |
IMHO the McLaren F1 is the "Holy Grail" of automotive engineering. But for the average joe, Volkswagens are great cars. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2209 Registered: 10-2001 |
hello folks. i think we are missing something here. lets not forget the Renault Fuego!! http://www.renaultfuego.8k.com/ | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2417 Registered: 02-2002 |
What's funny, is to then turn around and read this: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-07-29-carfix_x.htm -L | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2002 |
They speak to Land Rover and mix in the total line - Range Rover, Discovery, Freelander and Defender. If you look at Top Gears web site it looks like they really mean Land Rover / Defender. As in all 'best of the best' it is subjective. In this case I can't see F1's in war zones and difficult environments AND cruising down the boulavard to a show. There are many great cars but they tend to be one dimensional. For all around / all weather / all political conditions I would have to say Land Rover has a case. If you HAD to pick one vehicle to take you through 30-40 years of rural, urban, farm, trail, snow, rain, .... transportation what would you pick? As for reliability and service calls I have to believe that complexity is a major factor. Sure the new Range Rover has a high service call rate but it also is probably the most complex car on the road and is also very young. I would also like to see these surveys break failures up into critical and non-critical failures. I can live with a broken luxury item but not a blown head gasket. A few years back Toyota had major head gasket problems while boasting of low service call rates. Kind of missed the point as far as I'm concerned. - Mark | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2211 Registered: 10-2001 |
but there are two other ways to view this: 1) if you pay $70K for a vehicle you EXPECT it to be the 'best'. technology should be there for this vehicle to perform like no other.....thus the reason for the price tag like no other. if i am going to fork over $70K i don't want to be in the shop just because it is a new model, etc. 2) some people that choose certain vehicles are more 'brand loyal' than others. typically the big three domestic car makers have a very loyal buying mass. they will defend their vehicles to the death regardless of what they have had to do to keep them running. typical of the NASCAR group of boys. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 399 Registered: 01-2003 |
From Leslie's link; "Land Rover officials blamed its results on increased sales that have outpaced the number of service bays at dealerships. That, in turn, frustrates customers, Land Rover says" Huh? how does that translate to why so many vehicles return to the dealer for repairs? 62% well at least that's down from 73% in '99. But I'm sure a lot of that is from people saying things like, "the drivetrain makes to much noise" or "when I put on the e-brake it rolls forward". I also own an Audi, its return for repair rate is not much better than land rover. But its for regular service, the display in the dash tells me when service is needed and counts down the miles till when I should get it. Kind makes me happy that the car can tell me when I need to service it, makes maintence way easier to track. Since this is a british publication, where was the original mini cooper? What about the vw beetle or the car that revolutionized mass production, model T? | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 400 Registered: 01-2003 |
Do those NASCAR guys like the Fuego?  | ||
| Brett W. (Offrovn) New Member Username: Offrovn Post Number: 34 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well because I didn't really notice many people saying what I would think was the obvious here. That's awesome Rover got that award, as if I didn't already know it, otherwise why would I put up with the agony and hassle of them. If you remember back a few years around when the Mercedes ML320 was new and for the following several years they had horrible service and repair records. Although they are cheaper than the new Range Rover with any of the Big European companies AND Land Rover I would expect a quality product that did not involve tons of hassle. That said Land Rover owners (most of them) know what they are getting into, its not like you have to look very far to see people complaining about their rover problems on the internet. I would also venture to say that the Rover dealerships at least mine has exceeded my expectations in and out of warranty with our Rover's. So if I bought new 70K vehicle I would expect the potential for many things, not just because I like or know Rovers but because like any other logical buyer you should know that a extremely technologically advanced 70k vehicle is going to have some problems, especially the first year. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1776 Registered: 02-2002 |
Have you released the fury in your Renault Fuego? Mark makes a great case. I agree that if I had to pick one vehicle to take me through 30-40 years of rural, urban, farm, trail, snow, rain; I would pick a Rover. It wouldn't be the Disco 2 that I own now, but rather a D130 truck with a diesel powerplant. Andy, I am sorry to let you down man. But here in NASCAR land, there aren't many Fuegos. In fact I don't think I have ever seen one at all down here. However it is funny seeing men drive around their Dodge Durangos with the shiny rims and the Jeff Gordon #24 license plates. Paul | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 424 Registered: 11-2002 |
Its actually not up for debate. The Ford F series pickup is the best by its sales. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Brett W. (Offrovn) New Member Username: Offrovn Post Number: 35 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well maybe 4x4 or four wheeler magazine can give ford a special award for that. If sales had much to do with it, none of those cars would have even been considered, especially a Mclaren F1. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2212 Registered: 10-2001 |
so if sales determine was is "best" than i suppose the Tempo and K car were fucking bad ass. i drive a F250 super duty from time to time and do dig it quite a bit. freaking beast of a truck. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1777 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle has a good point. Ford Trucks have been making it happen for longer than anyone else and You can buy Ford parts anywhere. Nothing like a Ford F250 Diesel Man Truck! Garrett, did you secretly own a K-Car at one time? | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 402 Registered: 01-2003 |
Okay Paul, how about a F250 with a calvin pissing on a #24 towing a Fuego to the junk yard? The Topaz was the refined car of that group ... but nothing has the sex appeal of a k-car not even that McLaren. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2213 Registered: 10-2001 |
i am not convinced that just because the American public buys lots of it that means it qualifies it is "great." most Americans love conversion vans with crushed velvet curtains with matching captain chairs. i do like the bigger ford trucks out there, but i do have another '94 ford xlt that is a genuine piece of shit. looks great, but has more issues than John Denver had. never had a K car, but at least i don't lust for Pontiac Aztecs like some people. | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2002 |
Talking to a luxury car sales guy here in town (~1 million population) and he said they can't take MB ML class vehicles in on trade anymore because there are too many sitting around. The two local MB dealers are trying to unload 73 ML's with a summer promotion. LR is selling all the product they can get. Most don't even have the captain chairs option!  | ||
| Michael Noe (Noee) Senior Member Username: Noee Post Number: 707 Registered: 03-2002 |
BMW, E28 chassis, M30 engine. | ||
| Zak Ruck (Zak) Senior Member Username: Zak Post Number: 458 Registered: 07-2002 |
Andy, a K car wagon. Now there is a sexy beast! | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 425 Registered: 11-2002 |
The F series pickup is the best selling/ most used vehicle on the planet. You can argue it if you like (I have seen people argue dumber shit here) but facts is facts. And as Paul said , they get it done..... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 421 Registered: 02-2002 |
That makes Harrison Ford the best actor by extension. His films have grossed 500 quadtillion dollars or something. | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 980 Registered: 02-2002 |
i am with Kai, any of the pre Super Beetle air cooled VW would have to be my pick, but what do i know i sold every one of the 8 i have owned... mike w | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 428 Registered: 11-2002 |
If it was a film of him just standing there I would have to agree... ALTHOUGH , that isnt the case is it ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2002 |
actually gene hackman has made more movies then harrison ford so i think he would be more of the f-series equivelent. I'm with kyle...hard to argue with numbers...for that matter the the ford escort has sold more then bugs. but if I had to pick a personal favorite....83 MB 300d is about a perfect car as ever there was. MM | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2002 |
While it's true that Ford F-series trucks surpassed VW beetle production in 1995 I don't think you can argue that a 1956 Ford F100 and a 2003 Ford F150 share anything but a name. The VW Beetle coming off it's final production line this month in Puebla, Mexico (after 22 1/2 million world-wide production) is virtually the same as Ferdinand Porsche's initial preproduction models commissioned by Hitler in the 30's. Even the VW Golf surpassed VW Beetle production but that took several model runs to do. The Ford Model T production run included several body styles and it took the VW Beetle until 1972 to surpass that... | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1781 Registered: 02-2002 |
I would love to spend a day at Laguna Seca driving the hell out of a Mclaren F1 or even on of those paddle shifting Ferrari's that are racing in the Lemans series. How did Gene Hackman get into this? Gene hackman =  | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 423 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle, I will give you that The French Connection is far better to look at than Hollywood Homicide (inspired!), but it don't change the fact that up until that gem of a picture Ford's combined box office receipts were $1.4 billion higher than Hackman's. We're not talking about true art here - just numbers. If we were talking art, I'd have included The Conversation (Ford and Hackman both did this picture at no charge for their buddy FFC), Tommy Boy, Jaws, Apocalypse Now, Taking of the Pelham 1, 2, 3 and Casablanca. Art aside, and purely by numbers, the VW was an inspired (by the f-ing Nazis) vehicle - and the F150... well what can I say about that? Nothing, really - my only experience in one was watching the frame tweak when we pulled a mailbox out of the ground late one night in O.C. That said, by your standard, Ford is the Best Actor playing a piece of cardboard. The receipts don't lie - except in Hollywood, where most of the time they do. e | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well Erik , the point (That you didnt get) is that a movie isnt about one single actor. So many more things play into boy office numbers. The F series truck is the best selling vehicle on the planet all and of itself. This is another one of those times when people decide to argue something when they really just shouldnt. Your argument is a little silly actually. And the Bug ? LOL....... I wont even go there.. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 735 Registered: 02-2002 |
Some facts about the F-series and the F-150: Worldwide, the F-series became the most popular vehicle nameplate ever when it surpassed the Volkswagon Beetle's sales in 1995. The F-series is the oldest surviving nameplate in the world, having debuted in 1948 with the F-1 pickup. That was followed by the F-100 in 1953 and the F-150 in 1984. Its amazing how many you see on the jobsites in Brasil. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2214 Registered: 10-2001 |
not arguing kyle, but of course we can all get carried away with "best selling" items. ron jeremy, advil, HP, the color blue, etc. | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Member Username: Newman Post Number: 98 Registered: 04-2003 |
My favorite car of all-time? Well, since you asked , it's the hardtop Jag XJS, V12, in white with cabernet leather interior, from about 1987-1989. Smmmmmmmmmoooooooooooootttttttthhhhhhhhhh.... Andy | ||
| R. Shane Linder (Shane_l) New Member Username: Shane_l Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2003 |
As has been pointed out by several people, there are several ways to measure "Greatest Car of All Time." I agree that voting LR the greatest car of all time does not make much sense to most Americans because the LR never played a great role in our history. But as Richard Dekkard pointed out, it has had a great impact on the world. It is estimated that the first vehicle ever seen by 2/3s of the world's population was a Land Rover (think of the Brits taking their Rovers through Africa, India and Asia in the 1950s and 60s when these people had never even seen a car) and that somewhere between 66 and 75 percent of all LRs ever made are still on the road today. In Colombia, LR Santanas from the 60s and 70s are still the most common SUV on the road and the newest of these is over 20 years old! The D 110 is one of the most common vehicles used for a school bus here and the entire Colombian coffee industry is run on the backs of old LRs and Willys jeeps. I am sure that you would find that LR has had the same impact on the economies of 3rd World Asian and African countries as well. Runners up would have to be the Toyota Land Cruiser (not that piece of junk they sell in the U.S. but the safari ones they still manufacture all over the 3rd World) the VW and the Lada. -Shane | ||
| Justin (Vanroth) Member Username: Vanroth Post Number: 69 Registered: 02-2003 |
LRs enjoy their (historic) popularity primarily due to Great Britian's colonial dominance (and the location of that dominance)... Had japan or Germany enjoyed the same type of geographical expansion, Land Cruisers (which despite previous posts, are not junk), Patrols, and Mercedes (maybe even the VW bug pickup!) would be the dominate "safari" vehichles in peoples minds. There is no way I could honestly admit to a English car being the greatest car of all time. For those who are against the "American centralized" view point of vehicles forget that the world's auto economy revolves around the US. Cars built to last the number of miles some of the crack heads here put on their cars (without maintaining them) is just as impressive as the LR surviving deep in the bush. I still consider Land Rovers, just as my old MG Midget and Spitfire, tinkering toys any not nearly reliable enough to be considered the greatest. (and the same goes for that pesky Italian Fiat Spider;)). My vote goes for the Nissan Skyline GTR, McLaren F1, or the Datsun 240Z. -justin | ||
| Todd Nash (Nash) New Member Username: Nash Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2003 |
The greatest CAR? No doubt in my mind. The 1955 Porsche 550 Spyder. I think its the one James Dean smushed up good. 2 seats, no top, too many HP's for the weight. Fun. | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 433 Registered: 09-2002 |
Well, I wouldn't exactly call it "one of the most controversial motoring decisions in recent times", have you guys ever watched 'Top Gear'? It's not like the President declared July 30th 'Land Rover Day' or anything. I do, however, agree. The collective 'Land Rover' has left it's mark, worldwide, that no other brand can match. It IS the only vehicle that many 3rd world countries have ever seen. It's not about performance, comfort, sales, or any other popular yardstick. Remember what was symbolically driven through the palace doors in Iraq? It's the vehicle that gets the job done more than any other vehicle on earth. That's why people fanatically restore a 55 year old vehicle, it just has to be done. If you don't believe that you shouldn't be here. I'm not sure if Kyle really believes that the Ford F Series is a superior vehicle based on it being the best selling vehicle on the planet. I don't think sales was a criteria that Top Gear considered in making their decision. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of all things automotive - I just think it was the right choice. I grew up in the north of England - we were in awe of the mighty Land Rover, they always came through when we got our sorry asses stuck in the mud. When the Range Rover came on the scene (I was 11) it just blew me away. It was THE vehicle to strive for. I remember when one of the more successful local bands bought a Range Rover as their 'tour bus' we were so in awe! Maybe I'm biased, but however inadequate you might think your own Land Rover is (it's not BTW), they weren't thinking of YOUR vehicle when they made their decision. Steve | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 278 Registered: 10-2002 |
"Maybe I'm biased..." LOL Rule Britannia, eh Mr. Cooper? |
