| Author | Message | ||
     Scott Scott (Scottoz) Member Username: Scottoz Post Number: 89 Registered: 02-2003 |
I have put this forward before a long time ago, but given the recent discussions again on retro-fitting CDL engagement devices to ETC only 02's I will put it up again. I was told by my dealer service manager, a fellow who has proven time and time again to be very trustworthy, that retro-fitting will void warranty on many drive train issues if they develop. He cited a case one by LR in the Aust Federal Court, where a driver had caused drive train problems (he did not say what they were)with the retrofit and had then claimed against LR under Warranty. He told me that the 02 was not designed with CDL in mind, unlike the Defender extremes. He said that the ETC was more agressive on the DO2 than the defender because it did not have CDL. He tells me that when the ETC is working it should work without being "overridden effectively" by the drive caused by the engaged CDL. Can anyone shed light on this? Any dealers out there? | ||
| June H. Han (Junehhan) Member Username: Junehhan Post Number: 60 Registered: 04-2003 |
I'd be interested in an explanation on this issue as well since I eventually plan on finding a way to install a CDL on my 03 Disco. Even if the 4ETC is more aggressive, why would it effect the warranty when the North American market is the only market that they left the CDL off of? If we choose to install a CDL ourselves, how would that make it different compared to the European Disco's? | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1456 Registered: 04-2002 |
June, the rest of the world didn't get the CDL either until 2003. So from 1999-2002 D2's in the AU market all D2's would also be without the CDL. I did hear of a case as Scott mentioned a while back but I don't know much about it. In the US the dealer will need to prove that the CDL is the cause of the failure to void warranty for that part. So CDL won't void coverage for say a valve problem unless the dealer (LRNA) can tie the two together in court. I really don't buy the BS about CDL not working with the ETC on the D2. If anything the CDL causes the ETC to work less and put less stress on brakes, ABS system and spider gears. ETC will kick in if there is lots of difference in speeds of wheels. With the CDL you've locked one front wheel and one rear wheel to the same speed so there should be less "hunting" for the ETC. Laws in AU and the US are not the same so don't expect to compare the two. You might have a dealer that will give you grief about the CDL but if you have other dealers in the area just move on. When I first picked up my D2 the dealer tried to tell me that an electrical problem I was having had to do with the steel wheels and "bigger tires" (245/75x16's). After arguing with them I just move to another dealer and they never questioned anything even after modifying the SLS, 2" lift, 265/75's, CDL and a buch of other mods. But If I did (but I didn't) run into a problem with the SLS or transfer case I didn't expect a free ticket either. | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 692 Registered: 09-2002 |
This should be interesting considering next year they're supposed to have both ETC and a CDL. | ||
| Dirk Commandeur (Dirklc) New Member Username: Dirklc Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2003 |
ETC+CDL is already available on the 2003 Disco outside of the US (and in the handful of G4 models sold in the US). | ||
| Scott Scott (Scottoz) Member Username: Scottoz Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2003 |
I am told that the ETC software is different where the car is meant to have CDL activated. | ||
| David Ohlberg (David_o) New Member Username: David_o Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2003 |
CDL & ETC work far better on an 03 discovery than just traction control on our previous series 2s in Australia. The traction control is rarely used when CDl is engaged. | ||
| George Collins (Zinhead) New Member Username: Zinhead Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2001 |
The ETC is designed to work three open differentials (2 in the axle and center). That means when two wheels on the same axle lose traction, the brakes engage, shifting the power to the other axle through the open center diff. If the center diff is locked, power obviously won't shift to the other axle; it will be built up on one side of the drivetrain. As ETC pulses the brakes, all it is doing is building up and releasing tourque within the drivetrin, causing significant stress on your central diff, driveshafts and halfshafts. Keep it up long enough, and something will break. The electronics on the 03 ROW vehicles have been changed to accomodate the locked center diff. They probably have it setup so that if it senses a locked center diff, it won't engage both brakes on the same axle. | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1458 Registered: 04-2002 |
George... what you describe isn't what I've seen on open D2's. What I've noticed isn't two wheels on the same axle getting the brake but actually one wheel. I've seen this on vehicles that were high centered and the ETC would actually hunt seeking traction on each of the 4. So, with a CDL the ETC works from side to side (not front axle to rear axle). If the left front wheel slips then power will be transfered to the right front wheel. Almost like having a LSD diff up front or in the rear. | ||
| George Collins (Zinhead) New Member Username: Zinhead Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2001 |
ETC (and all the other electronic traction systems) advertises that if only one wheel has traction, it will transfer power to that one wheel. The only way to do that with an open center diff is to lock the other three brakes at the same time. I have little practical experience with ETC, but if it activates both brakes on the same axle and the center diff is locked, there doesn't seem to be anyplace for the tourque to go. | ||
| Michael Noe (Noee) Senior Member Username: Noee Post Number: 712 Registered: 03-2002 |
That's not exactly what happens. In the real world, as Al says, it hunts around, even if only one wheel has traction, it doesn't lock the other three with the brakes. Instead, it pulses the brakes independently and what appears to be in series rather than parallel (probably depending on whether it detects slippage or not). If you're stuck, it'll just sit there going from one to the next, pulsing each wheel until the slippage stops or you stop pressing the gas. THe place that the torque goes is to the slipping wheel when the brake is off via the pulsing. | ||
| Jim O'Hara (Jpo) New Member Username: Jpo Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2003 |
I bet we see a new CDL kit become available soon that, in addition to the CDL mechanism, also contains an EEPROM chip or other computer mod which will update pre-2004 (US) Disco2's to the new ETC-CDL program logic. If nothing else, it would be nice to have the Disco not disable ABS and ETC at start just because the diff is locked. Just my $.02 | ||
| John Friederich (Jfriedlvcmcom) Member Username: Jfriedlvcmcom Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2003 |
Geez, add my front TT into the mix of CDL and ETC and my rig must be ready to blow to the moon!!! Maybe I'm an idiot, but if CDL and ETC were working against one another in a way that Scott / George describe, I really think I'd feel / hear something that just didn't feel right. I don't. I'll be curious to hear what others more knowledgable than me have to say, though. John F 2001 D2 w/ CDL, ETC, and TT (front) | ||
| Scott Scott (Scottoz) Member Username: Scottoz Post Number: 91 Registered: 02-2003 |
John - me too. What George says sounds right in theory, but alas perhaps the theory of it is not the whole story as Al says. I suppose the proof will be in the pudding - if in 3 or 4 years time those with the retro-fit and a lot of off road miles are blowing diffs, COMPARED TO ETC'S ONLY (because that system may, it seems cause planetary gear failure from what I read on this site) then we may have the answer (practically speaking!). | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1460 Registered: 04-2002 |
I'm at just over 2 years and counting with my CDL and ETC. So far no problems. Okay... well not caused by the CDL anyway. aww... hell... I just jinxed it didn't I. | ||
| June H. Han (Junehhan) Member Username: Junehhan Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2003 |
Well, that's great to know. Al, do you go offroad a lot? I imagine I won't be ready to add a CDL for maybe another year, or 2 years max, so by that time, more solutions may hit the market. If there is a problem with the CDL and ETC setup, then we should definately know by then. | ||
| Jim Nicolson (Rvrjim) New Member Username: Rvrjim Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hi Guys, Here's my .02 first I have NEVER seen ETC apply both brakes on one axle...It just hunts side to side and around....anyone who thinks different should stop reading about Land Rovers and go use his off road or at least go watch them someplace off road. As for warr. I spoke with several dealers before adding CDL and I know of a few other who have done the same with about the same answer....it is a real grey area, but the dealer would have to PROVE that CDL caused the drivetrain issue. .....hey if your going to use your truck, sooner or later sh*t breaks..deal with it. As for me, the truck is tons better since I added CDL..it is better off road and the ETC runs much less(better for spider gears). A guy down here that I see off road sometimes has a 99D2 that has had CDL via a D1 transfer lever for three years and the truck see's weekly off road use in and out of swamp roads and such for his job....if something was going to break it would have by now. If you spend your life worried about "what if...maybe" you'd never get off the computer and get out off road. In fact I'll leave you with what I just changed my screen saver to: "log off...and get off road" Jim | ||
| OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks) Senior Member Username: Everythingleaks Post Number: 292 Registered: 10-2002 |
The CDL crowd may have lucked out with the ABS recall. The new software level is the same as the '03 trucks. We will not know for sure until the '04 D2 hits but this upgade may also contain the correct software for CDL use. The ETC in theory monitors wheel speed via the ABS wheel speed sensors. If the ECU recieves a 5 MPH difference in wheel speed from the wheel with the slowest wheel speed it will cycle the brake until the speeds are within that range. In theory it will brake three wheels at one time to transfer power to one wheel. In the '04 model it will check all four wheels against each other with the CDL unlocked and with the CDL locked it will only compair wheels on the same axle. Up until CDL was offered again as factory installed option the ECU was not set up to work each axle by itself. In a case like this with CDL locked it could attempt to cycle both brakes on the same axle and bind up the drivetrain. I have heard of this causing transmission faults to be set by the ZF rep and transmission damage in some cases. This may not be a common occurance because with the CDL locked it very rarly has to brake both wheels on one axle for extended periods. The diff lock on the D2 is cable actuated off the shifter with a cable that looks kinda like the high/low selector cable. This should help the problem with D1 shifter that would rust inside and not function anymore if not used on a regular basis ( not that anyone here would have that problem). It feels smoother that the D1 shifter but it doesn't slide over as far. The ETC and the CDL worked great together on the '03 TReK trucks. The BFG mud terrians and CDL make it fell like a different truck. The CDL made a BIG difference on the log crossings and on the slippery uphill grades. The new tubular roof rails may take some getting used to but if your in the market for an S it finally gets a single disk CD player in the dash that is nowhere near as complicated as the Becker nav unit to operate. | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1480 Registered: 04-2002 |
ABS recall? | ||
| OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks) Senior Member Username: Everythingleaks Post Number: 299 Registered: 10-2002 |
It was also known as the SLABS (Self Leveling Anti-Lock Brake System) ECU recall. The recall number was D263 for all Disco II models up to the 02 model year. | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1482 Registered: 04-2002 |
Ahh.... forgot that one.  | ||
| Scott Scott (Scottoz) Member Username: Scottoz Post Number: 96 Registered: 02-2003 |
Jim - I get amongst it here in Australia on a regular basis. The fact that I query what the dealer has told me does not mean that I dont get out and enjoy the truck - even without CDL the truck is very capable with the V8 and a 5 speed manual behind it; for an unmodified truck it puts 100 series Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols to shame. |
