| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 997 Registered: 04-2002 |
http://209.242.151.8/climate/climate2.mov | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 802 Registered: 02-2003 |
robert if you caught them what would you do,beat them up? i think its a pretty decent way to get the message across. most of the soccor mom driving types have no idea that there vehicle is so wasteful from a fuel perspective. it totally ticks me off to see people driving SUV's just because every one it's fashionable. rob davison | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 347 Registered: 04-2003 |
Shit, I'd love to have one of those stickers. I wish I had the power to change the climate. At least those kids are doing something they think is productive, as opposed to lounging around smoking pot and having wanton sex. Man, times have changed... Now, if they're keying cars, I say cut one hand off with just a local anesthetic. | ||
| Charlie Fok (Verboy) New Member Username: Verboy Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2003 |
There is a scene of a guy talking to police?! I guess this act may be a form of civil disobedience (aka. illegal) as this sticker can leave marks and may damage others properties. Rob,I wouldn't say it is a decent way, but it does draw the attention and may achieve its goal. | ||
| Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 998 Registered: 04-2002 |
I don't agree that it's a decent way. Not that I'm opposed to having stickers on my vehicle.. but, if I strongly believed in a cause, I would Never mess with someone elses property. If they asked if they could put the sticker on and explained their cause it would be different. Or simply used their sticker making resources to instead produce leaflets to leave under windshield wipers. And if I did catch someone placing said sticker on my truck, I probably would not beat them up, I'd end up getting my ass kicked. But, I would do the same to them as they've done to me. I would put a Large DWEB sticker on their windshield. Also, on another note. My wife drives a D2. Does she need an SUV? No. Do I feel safer knowing if she gets slammed into by a Honda Civic her chances of injury are less likely than say if she was in a Honda Civic as well? Yes I do. Do I know that there are other risks that driving an SUV poses such as roll-over, or plowing through a Subaru Justy causing more injury than aforementioned Civic? Yes I do. Sorry.. had to vent for a moment.. RS | ||
| CALM (Gumarcel) Senior Member Username: Gumarcel Post Number: 921 Registered: 11-2002 |
I would rather have a sticker on my rover, then have them burn it or vadalize it. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2280 Registered: 10-2001 |
wanton sex Blue? as opposed to eggdrop sex? or mu shu sex? | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 548 Registered: 12-2002 |
That would be Moo Shi Pork! | ||
| Patrick Oberg (Obie) New Member Username: Obie Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2003 |
What kills me the most about our American pop-culture is not only our ignorance about the rest of the world, but our arrogance that we actually believe if we drop a bill through congress that curbs 'green house gases' 25% over 10years we will actually be saving the planet! Like we are the only people that use it! When the fact is that we (United States) make up less than 5% of the entire worlds population!!! | ||
| Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 999 Registered: 04-2002 |
My father's Ford p/u truck (2wd) gets worse gas mileage than my Disco.. so why don't people harass rednecks in p/u trucks? I feel they just all want us to drive Honda Insights and drink organic coffee on the way to work while listening to Yanni. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 251 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well, according to the readout from the mighty NJDMV I received when I had my Disco inspected this morning, my CO emission was 0.00% (Permissible level 0.5%), CO2 was 14.5% and HC (Whatever that is, HydroCarbons maybe?) was 5 (ppm I suppose), while permissible levels are 100. NJ is getting to be one of the strictest states in the country as far as emissions go, and I passed with flying colors. So no, I don't feel guilty about driving my truck at all. And if I ever catch one of these assholes attaching a sticker to my truck, I will make him peel it off and eat it. - Axel | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 225 Registered: 02-2002 |
Too bad these idiots have no clue as to the cause of global warming. If you catch one tell them to go educate themselves and stop being lemmings. http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/envirowrapper.jsp?PID=1051-450&CID=1051-0 72303C | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 427 Registered: 03-2002 |
we may be only 5% of the population, but we consume an amazing amount of the raw materials, produced materials, and energy of the world. i do see that these people who put their chrome 20" wheels on their "SUV'S" and all the others that think they are part of an "x-treeem" lifestyle just because they drive an x-treeem truck as changing the climate. they are genually wasting energy. and no matter how many american flags they plaster on the truck, i think they are doing a poor job of honoring america when their actions are for enhancing their ego's but putting us deeper in the pockets of the middle east. there is my .02... oh... ps: i laugh at every driver of a caddy version of the avalanche. pss: this county adopted a buzz phrase of "personal responsibility" a while back. i think driving a truck that gets 13 mpg because of the image factor is not showing much personal responsibility. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 428 Registered: 03-2002 |
yeah, that is a great website, techcentralstation...just great. the scientists there in one article suggest that driving less increases pollution and another suggests that windmill farms may be dangerious to the environment. i love a site that says that all the previous data is flawed so we should not use fewer fossel fuels until we are sure, but lord knows we should not use wind power until we have more data. self fullfilling science from the oil industry does not qualify as an education. | ||
| Peter W. Pfeifer (Pwp) New Member Username: Pwp Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2002 |
So Rob Davis how do we decide who can waste fuel ? Moms can't for driving kids to soccer practice and picking up groceries , but we can as recreational offroaders or as a sport/hobby ?? Secondly If someone truly beleives that SUV's are the root cause for polution , I would like to sell them a mountain range so that they may preserve it. As far as beating them up, probably not, just slap them around a bit, anothers persons property is no place to voice your opinion , and thats just basic right from wrong ! Peter | ||
| Kelly Fristoe (Kfristoe) Member Username: Kfristoe Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2002 |
The dairy farm that my Grandad owned produced more toward changing the climate than any SUV. Methane gas coming off of these cow lots is severe folks. I don't complain too much about it because I like milk on my cereal and a good rib eye steak ever once in a while. I'm particularly fond of beef jerky. All I can say, in the part of the country where I live, if I catch someone putting that sticker on my car - they're going to have a choice of either licking it off with thier tongue or getting thier ass kicked. If they choose the licking part maybe I can explain to them the negative effects of the chemical process that went into making that sticker had on the environment. Come on people - I'm all for less polution and environmentally friendly products but our world is not that fragile. There are a lot of more important things to concern ourselves with. | ||
| Peter W. Pfeifer (Pwp) New Member Username: Pwp Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well said Kelly Now those where man made cows right ??? Kind of like those man made volcanoes that spew more toxic gasses into the air with one eruption than our whole SUV population combined. Hehehe after he licks off the decal with his tongue, I would make him reapply it via same technique into a cows @SS ! Peter | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 226 Registered: 02-2002 |
If anyone has driven across SouthWestern Kansas / SouthEastern Colorado after a 100+ degree day they know about toxic gases. The cloud coming off the feed lots will burn your eyes - The smell of money. I bet the people in the clip wouldn't even get close to a feed lot. As for 20" chromes on a SUV those people have every right to put whatever they want on their truck. Just like 38" tires on a Disco. Most SUV's are just replacements for the station wagon of old. They serve as family workhorses, just dressed up with chrome and tires. Plus they are safer than the econo box. As for TechCentralStation it is supported by corporations - AT&T, ExxonMobil, General Motors Corporation, Intel, McDonalds, Microsoft, Nasdaq, National Semiconductor, PhRMA, and Qualcomm. Corporations that employ people with brains. At least the discussion happens, unlike Kyoto which was just a cover for massive transfers of money and jobs to 3rd world countries. Why is Kyoto dying? Because people figured out it was political and had nothing to do with global warming. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 806 Registered: 02-2003 |
peter, government mandate the fuel thing. lets move to different fuel like hydrogen. let's have get back to having an informed society. rather than follow the leader. the auto makers hook stupid consumers into thinking they need the SUV because they are safer when in fact they can be the root of the problem. it's not always about emissions, and personally it's a consumption issue that bothers me more. i am fairly educated on global warming and i know it only takes one volcano to blow off to totally pollute the air to the equivalent of ten years of auto use in the USA. kelly, you talk the talk but i bet you wouldn't walk the walk. if you did resort to violence you better kill them if you want it to make a difference. either that or try explaining to them why you feel. beating them up will justinflame the situation. speaking of cows i went off about the pollution those things cause in a rant last year when i came home from utah. while hiking there i was disgusted to find they polluted the hell out of the spooky gulch area near Hole in the rock trail. there is no way i could rent govt. land an then pour raw sewage all over it and not get in trouble with EPA, but some how these farmers get away from it. if the world would just live in a more sustainable fashion rather than greed and money being the reason we do what we do. don't get me wrong i love steak and my SUV but i am aware of the detrimental effects they have and try to do positives to reverse those. also life aint fair, so why not try to lean it in my favor. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2468 Registered: 02-2002 |
Mikey, "another suggests that windmill farms may be dangerious to the environment" Have you seen what those wind-powered generators do to birds? It just so happens that the ideal places to put those, where there is constant wind (certain mountains or certain coastlines) are the exact same places that birds use... condors only have certain areas they will live, and folks are wanting to put those wind farms there. Have you read Silent Spring? She pegged it about the DDT and eggshells... and look at the larger ecosystem that was impacted, not just birds. Here in this case: In those particular ecosystems, the coasts and the mountains, yes, you could shift the balance from where it is now. FWIW..... -L | ||
| Mike Rupp (Mike_rupp) Senior Member Username: Mike_rupp Post Number: 261 Registered: 02-2002 |
"don't get me wrong i love steak and my SUV but i am aware of the detrimental effects they have and try to do positives to reverse those" What are those "positives"? | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 432 Registered: 03-2002 |
i see it in a pretty simple way...i cannot walk and live on this planet without effecting it in some way. it is impossible. but i can show some personal responcibility and impact it in the slighest way possible. sure, one guy goes in the woods and pee's in the stream and nothing much happens. hell, deer piss more in the stream more than that and that is nature, right? but when a thousand people pee in the stream, maybe it begins to taste a little salty. after a million people pee in the stream and now all the fish are dead are you going to suggest we study the effects of pee in the stream? sure the sun effects the environment. no shit...it is the entire reason we are able to live here. to that effect the moon is a major reason we are able to live here...but to minimize the effect of a billion cars belching crap into the air and say "hey, its the suns fault...keep on driving" is a pretty simplistic view of a very complicated system. in fact, if you read more of the study that the oped fluff in what ever the hell that braintrust website was called, you learn they see *some* corralation...not causality and they openly state that more reaserch is needed. did mr. brain mention that in his article that was linked above? no. to state that techcentralstation is sponsered by the likes of the companies listed and they employ brains, all i have to say is that i dont think mcdonalds is a brain trust. so i am not even going there, i have about 80 different locations in the *middle* of dallas (not the alps) where my at&t phone sercive will not work, so i can't say i trust them, microsoft has so many bugs in their software that hackers make virus runs several times a week, so i don't think i will trust my life and health to them just yet, exxon can't even drive their boats without hitting a continent...gm? well, i look at the avalanche and just shake my head. all the companies you listed have investors and profits that drive their technology, not my well being. look at the burning rivers in ohio, love canal, the pinto...sure those are older examples, but do you really think a scientist employeed by big business is going to openly call the operational practices of the hand that feeds them into question? and yes people do have the right to put what ever they want on their cars, but does that make it the right thing to do? with this latest power outage in the northeast, people had the "right" to immediately power up their air conditioners, tvs, microwaves, and every light in the house as soon as the power came back on, but was that a smart thing to do? no, it is selfish, and a poor decision to make in the light of the additional problems it could cause. just like driving a truck that gets 13 mpg just because you like the image...selfish. i try to make an extra effort to balance my 13mpg...i recycle paper, glass, cans...i walk and cycle when i can. my last visit to my local rover shop had me riding my bicycle 23 miles each way from the shop to my house instead of getting a lift. just because you *can* waste things does not mean you should. yeah...i like steaks, i like my truck, i like a whole bunch of shit that would not exist without some kind of raw material being mined, minipulated, and marketed so i understand how the world works, but i don't piss in every stream i come across just because i can. hey leslie... like i said earlier, i know how the world works...i have no doubt that anything you add to an environment will have some kind of change on that environment, but i still think it is funny that with all we *do* know about the use of fossil fuels and their effect on the environment, that somehow a windmill can be considered such a dangerous addition and in need of study before we take a coal plant offline instead. imho... ;) can we all still be friends! mike | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 348 Registered: 04-2003 |
Maybe Rob turns off the water while he brushes and only flushes once per day. That alone would make up for his evil SUV and bovine love. you boys want to bitch about petroleum hydrocarbons? try coming out to Phoenix and waiting in a gas station line for a while...gives you new perspective  | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 433 Registered: 03-2002 |
ever since we got that pile of crap claude lemieux from the coyotes i have refused to go there. but thanks for the invite! ;) | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2469 Registered: 02-2002 |
that somehow a windmill can be considered such a dangerous addition and in need of study before we take a coal plant offline instead. Over half of the US' electricity comes from coal. The US is the "Middle East" when it comes to coal instead of oil. There's been a big push when it comes to natural gas replacing coal, but think about this: you know how much you pay every month for electricity, do you want to pay four times that amount just to be on natural gas instead of coal? There are better ways to burn coal. Most (all) coal has a certain amount of pyrite in it, which is the source of the sulfur that is usually discussed. Pick where the coal comes from: some coal seams are really "hot", whereas a lot of seams are low-sulfur seams (ie, most of the Virginia seams are clean compared to Pennsylvania, or all of the western coals). Use new scrubber technologies. Use coal gasification: this is on the cutting edge for coal utilization, and can control exhausts VERY well, by extracting the "noxious" bits as usuable petrochemicals. -L (a coal geologist, BTW ) | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 434 Registered: 03-2002 |
then leslie, i will believe what you say...! i did not mean to suggest that we substitute wind for coal...i was just using it as an "anyfuel" example that we accept a certain amount of impact to our environment in our energy production, but now these guys suggest that we not use wind power because it may have an impact on the environment. it just smacked of an energy industry phobia regarding alternative energy sources... btw...i drive to taos from dallas for vacations 3 or 4 times a year and i am always AMAZED at the trains that run beside the road hauling coal to power plants (i assume). good lord, they are the longest trains i have ever seen and they are always there. mike | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 352 Registered: 04-2003 |
Wind power having a negative impact on the environment? That does sound like a pretty lame argument... Aside from chewing up a few birds, I can't imagine any other plausible negatives, such as "harnessing" enough wind and disrupt any weather patterns or anything like that. Are there any potential negative env impacts from using solar? LOL | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 435 Registered: 03-2002 |
melanoma. ;) | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 355 Registered: 04-2003 |
D'OH | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 807 Registered: 02-2003 |
mike rupp, i pray for the sinners and dont wash my car on rainy days. also i complain about things to try to convince others to stop, it lets me sleep at night. rd | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 356 Registered: 04-2003 |
you been prayin for me, Rob? Thanks, man. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 810 Registered: 02-2003 |
now and at the hour of our death. amen, blue | ||
| Ross Thoma (Rossthoma) Member Username: Rossthoma Post Number: 183 Registered: 08-2002 |
Solution #1 Keep a nice layer of protective dirt on vehicle at all times... One of those fuckers got my 03 last fall. But since the truck was off-road filthy, that shit just peeled right off. Or like Muskyman, if you catch them in the act take there supplies and let them know that if the family wasn't just walking around the corner you would throw there punk ass's off the multi-level car park..... Bitch! RT | ||
| Read (Read) Member Username: Read Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2002 |
stickers? thats nothing... check out what happend in L.A. last night. "SUV torched at dealership". http://ktla.trb.com/ the best part is the car painted "I (heart) Pollution"... pollution was spelled wrong | ||
| martin podgorski (Mpodgorski) New Member Username: Mpodgorski Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2003 |
here is another link with pics, http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2424844/detail.html you think torching a bunch of h2s was good for the ozone? | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 363 Registered: 04-2003 |
Man, that's just wrong. The scary thing is that the punks who do the burning aren't much different than the punks who do the stickering - they don't see much difference between stickers & flames. It's all in the name of "helping the environment" so what's the harm, right? Earth Liberation Front, ELF, LOFL at that one. Like the earth needs them to be liberated. These elves need to be introduced to an active volcano, then see who needs to be liberated. These creampuff "warriors" are going to shit themselves silly when they're hangin out on some sunny afternoon, planning the next arson job, emptying a brick of firecracker dust into a little PVC pipe bomb like normal people did back in junior high just for fun, listening to Hootie, doin each other's dreads, and then their clubhouse gets raided by the feds. I can already see the sit-ins, peace marches, and starvation protests when the ringleaders are on trial & put away for life for domestic terrorism. Mommy & Daddy on the news saying, "Little Johnny isn't a terrorist, he just loves his planet so much. We've raised him to be a good little vegan, not a bad boy. Please show some mercy." Punks. Chumps. Shoot em during the raid and save the taxpayers the expense. | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Senior Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 269 Registered: 01-2003 |
The girl could probably put all her stickers on my truck, if she took off her clothes first... ...and I could watch. The other bozo's though would bring my proclivity to commit mayhem to a high level. (Though I am pretty sure I would control it.) The though of stuffing one of those punks through a storm drain is still pleasing to me. They may have the best of intentions for me and the world, but like all terorists their methods are just wrong! One of the parts about civil disobediance is that you are prepared to suffer the consequenses. You commit vandalism, you go to jail. Just had a funny thought though. These "protesters" car pooling in a Suburban. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 364 Registered: 04-2003 |
I still want a "I'm changing the climate" sticker. I'd cut their little propoganda line off the bottom though. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2284 Registered: 10-2001 |
here ya go blue. http://www.changingtheclimate.com/bumpersticker.html | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 367 Registered: 04-2003 |
I guess I'll donate $0.33 to their clubhouse. One thing, though...if they are $0.33 each, why would I buy in bulk and pay $1.00 for 3 stickers? Maybe I'll order 3 and send $0.99 and see if the confusion shuts them down. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1343 Registered: 04-2002 |
gashog@changingtheclimate.com | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1344 Registered: 04-2002 |
Anybody know how to email them a couple of viruses at the above email address ? | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Member Username: Newman Post Number: 120 Registered: 04-2003 |
It's pretty easy, although I'm almost positive they (1) virus-proof themselves and (2) are probably being probed by SoBig if not others... | ||
| Richard Hanson (Big_rick) New Member Username: Big_rick Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2003 |
Well here we go again. I just found this board a few weeks ago, but was content to lurk until I saw this message. First, let us agree that it most people do not intentionally care to harm the environment. Next, I propose that there are many ill-informed opinions on both sides of the equations, but some of you guys on this board are taking the cake. I have seen the "blame America first" post above griping about how we are just 5% of the population, yet a major consumer of resources. Did it ever occur to this poster that we use this energy in part to produce goods and services that we then return to other parts of the world? And some of these items that we "return" are free to other nations, in the form of handouts (food, medical, educational, etc) to third-world countries. To think that we consume this energy soley for our own good is incorrect. This same poster is ready to jump on the bandwagon villanizing "soccor" moms (whatever "soccor" is) but later posts that he drives for "vacation" from Dallas to Taos "3 to 4" times each year. So driving across country on vacation several times a year spewing pollution is ok, but a mom driving her kids around in an SUV is a crime? What? Several of the above post address soccer moms, and how they drive SUVs to be fashionable, etc. I am inclined to believe that anyone making this statement doesn't have a large family, and is thus speaking in an uninformed manner. I have a wife and three kids, and there are times when it is hard to get everything in the Rover for a getaway or the kids' games. Would you guys feel better if families were forced to drive a van or a station wagon? I have heard the argument in this regard that these "soccer moms" drive around by themselves half of the time. No kidding! There is a little thing called "school" that our kids attend; what are we to do, only run necessary errands when everyone is in the car? How absurd. It is unfortunate that my first post here had to be of this tone; I am a nice guy. But it is tiresome hearing the sanctimonious point of view that is so hypocritically put forward in arguments such as this. The bottom line is if you want to be an environmentalist, get rid of your Land Rover to eliminate the appearance (and practice of) hypocrisy. For most people these vehicles are either a status symbol or a car that outstrips their day-to-day driving needs. I agree whole-heartedly with the guy above who states that environmentalist would have us all driving honda Insights; before you start attacking my SUV-driving wife, ask yourself if your Rover is a "need" or a "want". I am sure that 99% of us do not "need" such a capable, gas-guzzling vehicle. Flame on! Richard in Scottsdale | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 817 Registered: 02-2003 |
i'm the 1% i will break a common vehicle in days, this is how i ended up in a land rover. reality is in our heads. you believe what you want and i'll believe what i want. the difference is that i am convincing more people than you that my reality is the correct one. soon your reality wont matter in america and you will be left standing there wishing you had done more. all the while your children will enjoy the benefits of clean air and natural beauty, they have a lot of time on their hands too because the environmentalists closed down all the factories and good paying american jobs with there socialistic policies... rob | ||
| Richard Hanson (Big_rick) New Member Username: Big_rick Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2003 |
Hey Rob, I think you may have misinterpreted my post; I am on your side. I am saying that for most people a Land Rover is not necessary, it is a want. I just get tired of people who drive big cars criticizing others (including me or my family) for doing the same thing. I was just trying to make the point that these finger-pointers should get rid of their gas-guzzlers if they want to have a legitimate leg to stand on. Unfortunately, much of the "environmentalist" crowd wants to make a lot of great sounding rules for the rest of us to follow while they do whatever they want, all the while seemingly either not realizing their hypocrisy or finding a way to justify their actions. I have no problem with what you drive, and I totally agree that the socialistic\environmentalist agenda is helping to erode an already suffering manufacturing base in this country. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 442 Registered: 03-2002 |
ok rick, i know you were talking about me (my name is right there on the side, so you can address me by name instead of "poster") so i will chime in. #1) saying i "blame america" is absurd. if you read the post, i was pointing out that we may indeed be only 5% of the worlds population, however we do consume the vast majority of energy. the reality is that you cannot discredit the fact that we are the heavest consumers of energy by saying we are only 5% of the population. on a per person basis we even outstrip all of the other developed countries of the world by a larger percentage than our productivity outstrips other developed countries. that is not placing *blame*, that is just a fact. my whole point was simply that while we may be only 5% of the population we are much greater than 5% of the impact on the planet. and this debate was never about america's charity so don't even try to imply i am bad person because i want to shut down the great things that america provides the world in favor reducing our consumption. i see two choices: the smart way and the stupid way. i never knew wasting our natural resources (or anything) was the smart way. #2) ALL of my posts have simply asked for people to show a little personal responcibility. when the hell did that asking that become a crime? you know, it is amazing to me that america became one the most mobile societies in the world in the 50's without the need for every 3rd car being a suv. so to say that (as you point out in your "need, have" argument) you must have a suv to get around because you have a large family is simply not true. while you may want a suv, there are other options (such as wagons or minivans) that can do the job just as well but with less impact on the environment. also, if you are so committed to your family, does the increased rollover risk of most suv's vs. other vehicles not play a part in your overall selection of the correct vehicle choice? #3) that is great...call me a hypocrite...so you get mad regarding me "telling people that they have to drive wagons or minivans" (which i never did...all i have said is there are better choices for 90% of the suv drivers out there), and now you are saying that i cannot take a vacation? well, at least i am spewing pollution in an effort to get my truck to a place where i can use it for the reason it was built (have you ever wheeled in dallas?) you guys that have easy access to places to wheel are so damn lucky, so lay off my need to drive to get to where i wheel. i have driven many smaller vehicles in the past because i did not "need" the poor fuel economy of a large truck. now that i am about to buy land in new mexico, i will "need" something to get around on it in. and, as i noted above, i ride, walk, and recycle, (also, my air conditioner is on 82, yes 82 in texas) so before you tell me to put my actions were my mouth is, take a walk or a ride in my shoes. #4) and before i leave (i hope we are not in rebuttals, because i want to introduce a new argument), i want to say that around here, for everyone that thinks everything is fine, i am so sick and tired of being told during the prime summer outside days, that there is an ozone action alert and that you should limit your time outside. WTF? you are tellinng me it is UNHEALTHY to go outside? i am not going to say that suv's are the only bad guys (and i am sure as hell not going to say it is all the sun's fault), but i will say that several billion people and their actions are causing an effect on the environment. AN EFFECT. there is no way around that reality. i just think that when it becomes so unhealthy to just be outside that it becomes part of the daily news to warn you about it, that maybe it is about time to stop pissing so much in the damn stream. no body on this board seems to get mad for calling a poser land rover driver a poser, but to suggest that suv drivers that are posers are not making a very smart choice regarding the environment seems to be a bridge too far... #5) normally, i am a nice guy too...and it is too bad my 4 hundred and whatever post had to be like this, but hell, dont go off on me for suggesting that we could reduce our dependence on foreign oil (gee, what a crazy idea!), stop making the situation necessary for the summertime air to have a warning on the nightly news, and try to realize that (as i stated above) that just because we have a "right" does not necessarly make it the "right" thing to do. so we all claim to believe in the idea of "tread lightly" either because it is a good idea or to not do so will get out trails closed...why does that idea stop where the woods end and the pavement begins? again, as i noted above, i pointed out that we accept a certain amount of effect on the environment that follows our actions (energy or any other production), why can't it be as small an effect as we have the power to make it? i don't see that is socialism...i see it as being a good boy scout and a good steward of the land that your kids and grandkids, rick will someday inherit. maybe they will one day want land in new mexico...if they buy mine, wouldn't you want it to be in good shape? mike | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 443 Registered: 03-2002 |
oh yeah...one other thing...if you take an international ecomomics class, you will learn that it is not socialists or the environmentalistst that cause manufacturing jobs to leave a country, it is the natural evolution of an economy. economies evolve to higher tech forms of production as their technology and wealth expands...japan took alot of the manufacturing and production jobs from the usa, but even they are seeing many of those jobs leave for korea. korea will lose those jobs to some other developing country in time. that is just the way the world works, bro...no left wing conspiracy or x-file here, fox. | ||
| Thomas Dahbura (U352) Member Username: U352 Post Number: 157 Registered: 10-2002 |
geeeeeeeeeeez- I got board reading all those posts but I just wanted to say that if I saw some guy messing with my truck(rover and Chevy) I would kick his ass. Right or wrong don't mess with my shit! | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1525 Registered: 04-2002 |
Something like this (I hope)... Puts vehicle in reverse -- dumb sticker wielding vandal sneeks to place sticker on vehicle -- press the go pedal -- thump, thump -- place vehicle in drive -- thump, thump -- have a nice day. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 819 Registered: 02-2003 |
yes killing them that is the answer, same with beating them up. that would surely prove you are the better person. typical rd | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1532 Registered: 04-2002 |
Rob, if you can't have a good laugh about all the crap in the world you might as well call it quits. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 820 Registered: 02-2003 |
al, i am laughing.. i was pissed at humanity that one day, now i am just fucking with people to get a response... forgive me, i was bored. i guess i should use the smily face more often. rd hypocrite extraordinaire | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 369 Registered: 04-2003 |
i was pointing out that we may indeed be only 5% of the worlds population, however we do consume the vast majority of energy.....my whole point was simply that while we may be only 5% of the population we are much greater than 5% of the impact on the planet. Maybe so, but you're basing your data on some slippery ground. I agree with the 5% of the world pop figure, but what does we are much greater than 5% of the impact on the planet mean? Are you saying that, as a nice cohesive package, NYC to LA & the land in between, the USA is bad because we're consumers? "Bad" meaning worse than the package consisting of...oh, say the country made up of the land between Geniani & Kassala in the Republic of the Sudan? Keep in mind that their population is only 10% of ours, so, by your logic, would the Sudanese people be more responsible than Americans if their impact on the planet was no greater than 0.5% (how you'd quantify that, I don't know)? MY point is that you're falling into a typical, simple trap when you see snapshot data that says "USA is only 5% of world pop, but USA consumes the vast majority of energy." It ain't that simple, and it also ain't such a bad thing. The trap is a lot like the one that goes "We just had the hottest July on record, must be global warming, gotta be global warming, in fact, it IS global warming." One more thing, can you quantify "vast majority" for me? Does that mean 55%? 75%? 99%? -Blue in Scottsdale, thermostat set at 72, full tank of gas. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 451 Registered: 03-2002 |
well blue, like mark twain says, there are 3 kinds of lies. there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. ;) i am not trying to line up on the farleft side of the agenda (as it seems that a few folks want to assume). just as some people see *any* position that may be pro-environment as a pot smoking dreadlocked hippy position, i get a little annoyed when i see someone saying that we should place all the blame for any environmental changes on volcanos and the sun. i agree with you totally, it is not a simple proposition to do research on this topic. even though i do see myself as a liberal (oh lord, i have done it know, right!?!) ;) i do not believe we can continue to live without building and developing. so i accept that some impact will exist. i am also, however a conservative in that i think that it is always better to move slowly until you know it is safe, than to move fast and find out your mistake is irreversable. the thing i want to restate, however is that i never said that americans are bad or evil regarding the percentage of population issue. my point was to state that we are the worlds largest comsumers and that is a simple fact, regardless of our population. it is that statistic issue all over again...one person makes a statement that statistics show us at 5% of the population...well...statistics also show us at (?)% of the consumption (and i am sorry, but i do not have that number at hand). i was a poly sci major in college and grad school, so i guess i have a habit of looking for spin almost everywhere and combine that with my high school debate background, and it makes me prone to jump right in regarding stuff like this. but i will say...i think that a majority of the folks that say that i am foolish for saying we should be doing a better job at being better world citizens are basing their data on slippery ground as well. not to throw gas on the fire! ;) i know these things to be true, however: i will continue to try and minimize my impact on this planet (i still believe in the addage that "your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins" and i believes that extends to the belief that my right to pollute ends when it effects your health)... i may be completely wrong in all i have said, but at least of i am wrong, i did less harm to myself or the environment than if i was right and did nothing... and last, what the hell do i really have to lose? i feel that my life is not demished at all by recycling a few cans, the newspaper, not taking a bag for the one or two things i bought at the store, or by sitting here in my house with the air on at 82 (and feelin' fine by the way!) i am healthier because of my walks and rides and a little richer when my electric and gas bills come in. in the end we all have to do the things we think are right and i feel that i am doing the right thing using the data i see as being most probable...it is like the last trail i was on in new mexico...i spent quite a bit of time picking up the beer cans that the band of atv riders was leaving behind like bread crumbs...rick suggested that no one *wants* to hurt the envoronment. well, i guess i just have a different idea as to what hurting the environment is. as for the atv riders, i am sure they saw empty beer cans as having no effect on the environment and to a certain extent, they are right. low levels of beer are not toxic to plants...the cans were not going to leach into the ground water...but to me, all the litter looked like shit and they were being poor stewards on public lands. in the end we all do what we think is right...i promise when i am in arizona in october...i will leave it as nice as i find it! ;) ok? mike | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 230 Registered: 02-2002 |
Mike Here is some low impact fuel - Anything into Oil (Change trash & sewage to oil for $15@barrel) DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 5 ^ | May 2003 | Brad Lemley http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/967192/posts Ignore the byline :-) I referenced the FreeRepublic post because there are other good links in the post. Now if we could get one of those "burn anything" diesels in a Rover I suspect you and others might be a Land Rover return customer. Then again we would probably find someone bitchin about the exhaust smelling like Thanksgiving. Next opportunity, aromic exhaust. As for the US and pollution, try going to a 3rd world country, not a good sight. And Kyoto wanted to subsidize 3rd world growth and give them pollution credits! There is a reason it's cheaper to take manufacturing overseas, and it's not just the wages. You can blame some manufacturers but there are a lot of governments that could care less about the environment that are using the UN for political and economic power. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 453 Registered: 03-2002 |
hey mark... ;) thanks for the links...i will check them out tonight. i travel a lot and yes, i see a lot of scary things when out of the country. as i mentioned, i am not anti america or anti business or anti growth. i just want us to continue to be leaders in the world. if i drive to the ice festival in ouray this winter, i will come up that way and we can debate over beer...;) all debates are better over beer. mike | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 371 Registered: 04-2003 |
LOL, I don't see the pro-environment position as a pot smoking dreadlocked hippy position. I make my living by preserving the environment. However, you won't find me hugging a tree or condemning the USA's consumer status. Rather, you'll find me behind a desk, running a business, trying to keep track of my tax dollars. But I do think we're more or less on the same page. I agree with the "lead by example" model, and I can guarantee you that I've done more than anybody on this board to prevent contamination, reclaim the land, and promote overall environmental responsibility. Hehehehe...but I do it with science, revenue, & profit margins; not a spray can and Molotov cocktail. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 454 Registered: 03-2002 |
right on blue... maybe if i can get over my phoenixphobia, i will come down there for beer too... mike |
