Non-Lethal Deterants for animals

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Author Message   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:31 pm:    I usually carry a small marine airhorn when I am out hiking in the backwoods. The horn has worked well to deter large animals from my path, but I was thinking about an alternative - dog whistles. Has anyone seen the affect these have on bears or other large NA predators? Thanks John   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:43 pm:    pepper spray? heard some nature dude talking about using that on black bears. would most likely just piss off a grizzly and make him chew on your head a little harder though. some of those cans spray pretty far.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:00 pm:    I don't like pepper spray, to many variable to take into consideration. If the wind is going the wrong way, it ends up on you. It does work, and it works on Grizzlys, unless you are standing next to a cub. Then you should put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. I like the air horn because you just have to push a button, and there is no need to aim it in any particual direction. I must admit I have not used this on a Grizzly or Polar bear, and I know noise does not deter them very well. But I still wonder if a dog whistle or some alternative would work very well on a Grizzly or Polar Bear? The air horn is a tactic I use, I am not advocating it, I am simply looking for possible alternatives. If you put yourself into a situation you are not suited to handle, I will not be held responsible. Sorry for the disclaimer, but people use this site as a reference, and some people follow the suggestions on this site with disregard for other outside sources.   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:29 pm:    hk   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:43 pm:    those are only non lethal if you shoot it in my paw or ass. i am not real sure how the dog whistle would work. just don't see that being annoying enough for a big, pissed off beast. don't worry. i will not hold you responsible. don't think i would be around to sue you anyhow if one came after me. not a real good climber.   muskyman Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 04:49 pm:    John , the bad news is nothing works on polar bear. when they are ungry your lunch saw a video a friend took a polar bear was shoving its head into a port-hole in the side of a fishing boat. they would spear it in the face with a fishing gaff It would pull its head out 2 min later...it would stick its head back in. also in 1994 spring bear hunting in ontario one of my hunting partners had a small bear come up his tree . he hit it with pepper spray and it just snarled more . he pocked it in the face with a braod head and it jumped from the tree. I hunt bear almost every year in ontario, I'v come to believe they are all individuals. and how they act is just as individual. they just need to know you are there and they stay clear of you. as far as the air horn goes ....bears are very curious if they are looking at you a horn may scare them. but if they arent looking at you they may come to take a look.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 05:05 pm:    Only use the horn when I have been seen. I have been able to walk away from a mother and cubs a few times, just because I was not seen or heard. You are correct, they are curious. I was tracked by a large sow a few years ago when gun hunting deer. I would not have believed it until I swung around a point, making about a 3 mile circle and found my tracks to head home. Along with my tracks, there were nice size paw prints, following the same path I had taken. I picked a decent vantage point, change the load in the rifle, and waited. About 20 minutes later a nice sow came along. It was a little unsettling to be tracked by such a large animal, but it was a good lesson to learn. After she saw me, she headed the other direction. I don't know if it was because I was waiting in ambush, or if she just got bored.... I am heading into northen MB this summer for an extended canoe trip, and I am considering my options beside a firearm.   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 05:08 pm:    Kruger , having a way to STOP the furry is the only way. Also , you know how to tell grizzly shit when you see it right ? Its the pile of crap that has whistles in it and smells like pepper spray.. Kyle   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 05:53 pm:    And Kruger , dont forget , we got your back... http://www.discoweb.org/or/ Kyle   Kevin Novakowski (Kln) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 06:05 pm:    I suspect a dog whistle would be not bad for notification that you are "in the area". I don't think it would deter any suprised animal. I hike with a regular whistle for notfication, crack flares to deter animals who are showing too much interest in me and pepper spray as a last ditch effort. Notification that you are in the area and an awareness of your surroundings are your primary defense against any encounter.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 06:08 pm:    You got an 800 number for that recovery service? As for the bears bring the gun and shoot a round in the air the sudden noise should scare it off.. If not then at least you can deffend your self with it as well.. I feel that would work better then a horn..   Pvt Joker Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 08:13 pm:    get hold of a couple of "flash-bang" grenades from a friend who is in the military or law enforcement. non-lethal and I think that it might scare the shit out of a bear. just don't look at the grenade when it goes off. also good for potential car-jackers in Chicago (don't ask)   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 08:53 pm:    Musky, "the bad news is nothing works on polar bear." What about a left and right from each barrel of this: http://www.mcdonaldsgunshop.com/jpegs/rigby1rt.jpg This one is a Royal Sidelock from John Rigby & Co. in London, chambered in .470 Nitro. Or better yet, a nice 4-Bore double should do the trick: http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/images/4bore_part1_p1p20v5no4.jpg The rifle on the left is no smallbore either. That's a Holland & Holland Royal in .465 Nitro, a "man's gun" by any definition. Still, even the Nitro Express rounds pale in comparison to the mighty 4-Bore. Here's a view of the 4-Bore's projectiles: http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/images/4bore_part2_p2p10v5no5.jpg The two smaller projectiles are Woodleigh solids recovered from an elephant. The two deformed 4-Bore bullets were recovered from a Cape Buffalo. "Bore" in English parlance means the number of lead balls the size of the bore equalling a pound. Thus, a 4-bore rifle will accept a quarter pound lead ball into its bore. The 4-Bore rifle projectiles are conical rather than round, and each one weighs considerably more than a quarter of a pound. Many authorities believe both the Nitro Express rounds and the 4-bore are more effective against dangerous animals than an air horn, although this is a contentious subject.   Jake Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:07 pm:    PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER!!! John Lee is right on with those big muthas...bring more money than $afariGard when you go shopping though.   Kyle Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:54 pm:    If you boys are gonna start toteing grenades and shit then "Outfitter Recovery" is gonna be a gold mine.. Again , nothing says loving like a short 12. Even if it dont kill him it will sure ruin his day and will probably change his outlook on eating the human.. Kyle   Ron Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:22 am:    10 gauge and a couple a nice solid lugs Ron   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:14 am:    On a hunting trip I was warned about the bears in the territory, and told the best thing was to wear little bells on our shoes. (?) I was then instructed on how to tell the difference between squirrel sh*t and bear sh*t. Squirrel sh*t is small, round, and has nuts in it. Bear sh*t is bigger, firmer, and has small bells in it.   gp (Garrett) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:22 am:    my all time favorite......a potato gun!! just bring lots of potatoes in case you get stranded.   smokey bear Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 11:36 am:    Why are you trying to hurt/harrass my brothers and sisters? YOU punks come to MY territory and then you try to piss us off with all your devices of death and torture??? Just wear a bell and talk loudly in forest. We'll hear you coming and we'll leave you alone 99.9% of the time, unless you have a honey pot or a honey-baked ham in your back pack. I think you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightening than being the main course for Winnie. Remember: ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FOREST FIRES!   Hugh Man Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 11:41 am:    well said Smokey, but that lightning you quoted starts fires too, and there ain't nothin I can do about that...   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 11:43 am:    Hmmm , ok , I will bite Smokey. I dont think anyone mentioned going looking for a furry of any sort. My question is. What happens to Homosapien when one of the larger furries (For whatever reason) decides that said Homosapien is a bit too close for comfort or just basically in his way ? Lastly , once this occurance starts to unfold. What options does said Homosapien have to STOP the event , I aint talking about wishing or hoping , I am talking about knowing ? Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    I'm thinking that if he is coming and you KNOW your going to get it.. Run like hell and maybe you will get away.. Probably not but, it's better then just standing there and let it eat you.. If your really worried about it.. Don't go in the woods.. Stay home.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:46 pm:    Kyle, I guess your truck would need recovery if it was in the situation I was, as seen by the terrific link you created (Vehicle Recovery), but the Yellow Beast handled it with ease. There are tactics you can you use to increase your chances of survival from a Grizzly or Polar Bear attach, I just will feel better it I can avoid the situation....   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:47 pm:    You guys are sooo, funny. I like the idea of flash grenades, I wonder if I could use those fishing too...   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:55 pm:    John, "I guess your truck would need recovery if it was in the situation I was, as seen by the terrific link you created (Vehicle Recovery), but the Yellow Beast handled it with ease." The Yellow Beast? "There are tactics you can you use to increase your chances of survival from a Grizzly or Polar Bear attach, I just will feel better it I can avoid the situation...." This is true. No reasonable person goes looking for a bear confrontation, and it is preferable to avoid the situation entirely. I don't think anybody disagrees with this. But if you are in the position of a guide and responsible for the safety and well-being of your clients, you must be ready for the possibility of animal attack. "Being ready" is a nebulous concept and covers dozens of different things. It's impossible to define, but to me, "being ready" includes more than packing an air horn.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:05 pm:    The Yellow Beast - is my XD I do agree that preparedness as a guide is very important. Not only for the task at hand, but other possibilities. An animal attack is actually less likely to occur than many other 'problems' you encounter when taking someone into the wild, or just into your back yard. There is a greater possiblity of injury due to a fall, sickness, or stupidity than most other issues I have encountered.   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:22 pm:    John, "The Yellow Beast - is my XD" Aaaah. Why the macho name? Does the Yellow Beast kick some serious ass or something? "I do agree that preparedness as a guide is very important. Not only for the task at hand, but other possibilities. An animal attack is actually less likely to occur than many other 'problems' you encounter when taking someone into the wild, or just into your back yard. There is a greater possiblity of injury due to a fall, sickness, or stupidity than most other issues I have encountered." Agreed, but that is beside the point. However unlikely an animal attack is, people do get attacked by animals on a regular basis and you must be ready for it if you are responsible for the safety of others. You must have all the tools and knowledge to avoid an animal attack, to stop an animal attack if it occurs, and to deal with the aftermath of an animal attack. Anything less than this is unacceptable if you're guiding people into the wilderness. Air horns and doggie whistles aren't going to cut it.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:23 pm:    I agree completely Kruger , I am betting that the chances of a bear or any other furry attacking you are about as slim as a plane flying into the building acrost the street... Erik , there arent many furries alive and breathing that you can outlast/outrun . Why do you want a winch ? There has to be other ways of getting unstuck right ?? Kyle   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:33 pm:    The XD only kicks my ass, this site helps me learn a thing or two so I can fight back. John Lee, How much gear do you take with you? I am picturing you as a guy who packs a 6000ci pack for a weekend trip? You have a nice truck, but how far away from it do you get? Granted I am teasing you a little, but there is a line between having the right gear and overburdening yourself as you try to 'prepare' for any situation. I also find it much more important to be mentally prepared than physically prepared, the mind is a powerful weapon that is at everyone disposal.   Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:40 pm:    john, JL doesn't have as much room in the milkrtuck as i have in the chickety. but he's got real good insurance for a lot of shit that can happen.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:52 pm:    ok Kruger , you have walked all into this so I gotta bail in. You are an "Outfitter" so I am wondering why I am telling you this and you dont already know it. Lets say you and you clients are having a good ole time up in BFE nowhere. Hooting and carrying on catching some nice fish. Off in the woods is tired old Mr Grizzer that hasnt eaten in days because he is sick and cant catch a meal. Mr Grizzer is looking at you and your clients like a pretty damn easy meal and thats exactly what he knows he needs to stay alive. Now , on his worst day he is about 10 times better then you and your buddys on your best days. He also has one thing in mind , survival. If something doesnt physically stop him he is going to kill you or some of your clients , have no fear. Where does the horn and whistle fit into this equation? You are going to throw it at him ? Trip him with the cord on the whistle and make a fast get away ? You see , you are right animal attacks are rare. Something is ussually very wrong if they come for you , if thats the case they are doing it for one reason only and thats survival and you will have to physically stop them. What would stop you from surviving? Would you not use any means neccisary ? As john mentions , your attitude towards it might suit you , and thats fine and dandy. But we aint just talkin about you are we ? You wanna sit down and have a talk with the furry and try to make him see the light and thats all well and good. You be the first to make sense of it all. Nature doesnt need a good reason and it doesnt need to make any damn sense at any time. But what about those clients paying you to carry them around ? They might not have the doolittle skills you posess..... Kyle   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:15 pm:    John, "How much gear do you take with you? I am picturing you as a guy who packs a 6000ci pack for a weekend trip? You have a nice truck, but how far away from it do you get? Granted I am teasing you a little, but there is a line between having the right gear and overburdening yourself as you try to 'prepare' for any situation." Actually, I pack very light. My entire first aid kit fits inside a Pelican 1400 case. I don't know how to use half of it. I'm really unprepared for a serious injury. My only mobile phone is a Nextel that doesn't work in the boonies. I don't have a satellite phone that I could use to call in a helicopter for a severely injured person on the trail. I usually pack only a pistol with me when we go on trips. I'm not prepared for an attack by a large animal because I usually leave my shotguns and rifles at home and even when I do bring them, they are locked away in a Pelican case and inaccessible. I don't pack a supply of emergency food and water in case of vehicle breakdown. All of this irrelevant. I don't charge people money and represent to the public that I'm qualified to guide them into the wilderness. When I do go to BFE with people, it's with friends and not clients and it's understood that we're assuming the risks of the wilderness together. Your role as a a purported outfitter/guide is very different. When you're charging people money and representing to them, explicitly or implicitly, that you're qualified to guide them into the wilderness, you have to be much better prepared (both in equipment and skill) than if you were responsible for your own safety. "I also find it much more important to be mentally prepared than physically prepared, the mind is a powerful weapon that is at everyone disposal." This is true but it's yet another meaningless statement.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:33 pm:    It is my goal, as with most guides, to not put our clients into harms way, despite the fact that they are usually paying you to do just that. Yet, you are in the wilderness, and you are placing yourself outside of your comfort zone and into a hostile environment. Does that necessitate the carrying of firearms, maybe. But if you are outside of your comfort zone, you may not act as you would at the practice range. Does that mean you will use the gun, probably, but it adds a level of complexity to any situation that may not be necessary. I equate a gun to having a winch. You think the winch will get you out of tough situations, so your common sense and skills may be a little lax, at least that is the assumption you drive down the trail with. I see this all the time in many people who carry a gun, they are given a false sense of security and usually get themselves into situations that they would not normally walk into. Granted on my MB trip, someone in the group will have the necessary items on their person to help ensure our security. But my original question was related to how a dog whistle would affect a large predator, like a bear. Because it is much easier to have your clients carry a whistle/air horn than a gun.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:41 pm:    "I also find it much more important to be mentally prepared than physically prepared, the mind is a powerful weapon that is at everyone disposal. This is true but it's yet another meaningless statement. " I am afraid it is not a meaningless statement, it is unfortunate you consider it such. Mental imagery and determination can get you much farther than a good multi-tool or excersize regimen. It will also help get a group out of a bad situation, because as the leader of the group, you are prepared 'mentally' to handle the situation.   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:43 pm:    someone stated using a 10 gauge and a couple of slugs...unless you are a good shot, that is not enough to stop a charging grizzly, just enough to piss them off.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:47 pm:    try this to get the grizzly off your ass: LOL   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:48 pm:    A totally meaningless response. On this MB trip, are you going to have a satellite phone in case someone is seriously injured or has a heart attack or stroke or whatever? Or a deluxe first aid kit? Do you have emergency equipment like signalling flares in your vehicle kit in case your group is lost? Do the Yellow Beast even have a winch? Or a land anchor for when trees are unavailable? Any guns in your kit in case of animal or human attack? Do you have the knowledge and skill to use all of this equipment when it's required? I'm guessing the answers to all of these questions is "no". You will probably rationalize your "no" answers by saying not having this equipment and the knowledge and skill to use it effectively will only give you a false sense of security. So be it. Stick to some air horns and doggie whistles inside the Yellow Beast and hope for the best. But your clients deserve better.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:51 pm:    Kyle, was saying that if you run you have a better chance of getting away then just standing there and throwing a rock at it.. Where did the winch part come from?? Either way I don't want one I already have one.. But, it's always nice to get stuck and have others around to help you get unstuck..   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 02:54 pm:    John, "I am afraid it is not a meaningless statement, it is unfortunate you consider it such. Mental imagery and determination can get you much farther than a good multi-tool or excersize regimen. It will also help get a group out of a bad situation, because as the leader of the group, you are prepared 'mentally' to handle the situation." It is a meaningless statement. I'll try to explain why. Kyle and I are not advocating that you abandon your good sense and judgment when you tote a shotgun or some other weapon to protect your clients from animal attack. Rather, we are recommending that you acquire a shotgun as just another tool for you to use to deal with animal attacks. A shotgun and the skill to use it well are just more tools for you to use when necessary. You try to frame the debate as one of "guns or judgment, but not both". This is absurd. The two need not be mutually exclusive. It is quite possible to have both guns and judgment, and many people do. To my way of looking at things, your statements are just your transparent ways to rationalize your being unprepared to lead others into the wilderness.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:08 pm:    I agree with John here and as always he has my thoughts captured completely. If you are scared of guns Kruger or dont know how to properly use them you are right , you shouldnt have it with you. But , that does make you less of an "Outfitter" and it certainly does expose your clients to potential risk. Also , I cant recall anyone every getting seriously gnawed on by a chipmunk and in some areas thats the worst that could happen. As with everything else in the truck . The equipment and knowledge of using it should be formed around the trip.. Erik ,what the hell are you saying ? You would rather take your chances running then have a gun with you? I aint getting your posts and how they relate to what I am saying to you. Kruger , as far as protecting your clients , I think they would be best served if you first acknowledge the fact that this can happen and there is little a man can do to defend himself against a persistent furry hand to hand. By saying "It rarely ever happens , no worries" you are creating the atmosphere you just condemned in your posts. Kyle   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:28 pm:    I was not trying to say, "guns or judgement", and I can see how you derived that conclusion. Unless I am guiding hunters, there is no need for anyone in the group to carry a gun. Most people feel uneasy if there are guns in the group, I may not like that, but the fact remains most of my clients don't live in the woods and have not grown up with guns. When you are off in the middle of BFE, you can shoot off as many rounds with your friends as you like. After all, they are your friends with similar interests and they don't mind if you have a gun. You have pointed out the differences in pursuing outdoor adventure as an individual vs a guide. You are correct, there is a great difference in the requirements to go from one to the other. I base many of my 'opinions' on my many years of individual experience, plus the years of successful guiding experience in my family. It is obvious you have destinct requirements for an outfitter you would hire, much of which is based on your own personal abilities, and of which I would not fulfill.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:43 pm:    Is this your "Outdoor training tape" Kruger ?? lol www.discoweb.org/bearandsalmon.asf Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:45 pm:    I believe that is the British approach. LOL   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 03:53 pm:    If the shoe fits....just don't get between me and my salmon!!   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:03 pm:    John, "Unless I am guiding hunters, there is no need for anyone in the group to carry a gun. Most people feel uneasy if there are guns in the group, I may not like that, but the fact remains most of my clients don't live in the woods and have not grown up with guns." True. But the answer to this is simple. Just don't go around brandishing your weapons. Keep them tucked away and hidden. "Speak softly and carry a big stick, you will go far."   Roverine Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 04:10 pm:    ROTFLMAO!!!!! Now we're back in business, God I love Discoweb .... Kim P.S. Garrett, I was playing with a spud launcher while out last Sunday (well, it was more of a spud cannon, actually). I thought about that ... takes too long to load, prep with ether, etc., and too unweldy. But I'm with you, I love those things! hehehe   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:21 pm:    Kyle, I said that if you didn't have a gun (which I said that you should in an earlier post) then run.. I said in the earlier post that "As for the bears bring the gun and shoot a round in the air the sudden noise should scare it off.. If not then at least you can deffend your self with it as well.. I feel that would work better then a horn.. " But, why carry a horn that just makes noise.. What you going to through the horn at it? If you don't have anything that can kill it you better run like hell and hope that it doesn't get you..   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:31 pm:    Ahhhhh , I gotya now. If I got put in that situation and all I had was a whistle or a horn I would pray for a gun to shoot myself for being such a dumb ass.... Kyle   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:33 pm:    why is it krugers responsibilty to protect the client, thats the part i dont get.. if i hire someone to take me fishing i dont expect them to be my bodyguard. milk truck? you a delivery boy, john lee? rd   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:45 pm:    this is what d-web is all about, glad to see the posts a rolling....   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:00 pm:    Hmmm , Rob ,you knoww hat to do,,,I aint even gotta say it.. Kyle   chrisvonc Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:46 pm:    Rob, if you go on the cruise ship, do you expect life preservers and life boats or do you not expect them to be responsible for your safety. Chris von C   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 06:53 pm:    i expect not to need them. rd   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:07 pm:    then why does your Disco have bumpers, seat belts, airbags, crumple zones, and anti-lock brakes?   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:39 pm:    You cant argue with Roberto , he lives in a dream world he likes to "Imagine" Kyle   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:51 pm:    imagine that! LOL   Retired Para Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:35 pm:    This shit is so simple: get a large caliber long barrel handgun (44 Mag) or a nice .458 or larger rifle to store in the XD or backpack, maybe both. Gather a few flash-bangs to have handy for non-lethal intervention. Clue your clients in on bear behaviour and use normal(for the woods)caution. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best is how we always did it in the military. Satcom phone and good first aid kit (that you know how to use)are perhaps as valauble 'cause animal attack is rare, but accidents and injury are not. 20 years in special ops and airborne infantry taught me to pack what you might need, even if you never use it. BTW John, flash-bangs don't provide enough concussion to be effective fishing tools, but a 1/4 stick of dynamite does....   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:56 pm:    In Robs defence (not that he really needs any) it is imagination that makes this world of ours work.. Just think where we would be if no one had an imagination??? Banging on rocks in a cave some where most likely.. If I could find a sat phone that wasn't expensive as hell I'd get one.. If it was my business to walk groups of people around on trips to the middle of no where I would make that my first business expense.. Johnnyk do you make your clients sign a waiver that says if they get hurt or killed they or their families can't sue you?   chrisvonc Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:07 pm:    Nor do I Rob but that was not the question.   KJ Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 11:50 pm:    I don't love guns, to say the least, but if I was on safari on Africa I sure wouldn't go unless there was more than one well-armed and well trained staffer in close proximity. Now, I don't have specific directions to BFE (G) but if I knew I was going into big cat &/or bear country I'd want the same sort of assurance as if I was on that lovely African safari. My profession is what I euphemistically call "controlled endangerment of the public", so I deal with serious safety issues literally every working day. My equipment, my horses, my arena and my grounds are the best they can be, and I'm vigilant and careful. We have set procedures and hard and fast rules, which we drill on all the time. Still, shit can happen. Life is a risk, but mitigating those risks we can control before we enter into risky behavior is key. I might not want to handle a firearm myself, but I want any guide I sign on with to carry one if we are even remotely placing ourselves into a situation where we might wish we had one. Karen   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:04 am:    chris, do i expect them to be responsible for my safety? if i really was that paranoid then no i dont. i should have had the foresight to bring my own lifevest and raft, just in case. i've often wondered what would happen if i tried to bring a paracute onto a plane as my carry on luggage... i think i'd catch hell, especially now, but i'd still like to. since i am playing buy there rules i have to accept them or find another way to my destination. same with the boat. if i am worried about sinking i shouldn't go. if freddy krugers clients are worried about being eaten buy a bear they shouldn't go fishing with him. blue, my truck has all that stuff because of the government and becasue of people who are sue happy and becasue the insurance companys dont like to pay out more than they have to plus, 75 % of the people with drivers licensed cant drive and need that safety shit.. hell, i need that shit to protect myself from that 75% yes i like to imagine that all the poeple in the world could simmer down. but i dont sit here and pretend it's going to happen. i feel it's worth the effort to try to help people. some dont want help. there is nothing i can do then. should we continue to arm ourselves or try and reverse the problem of society becoming more violent? i dont know if im doing the right thing , but it feels right. i have nothing else to go on but my instincts... rd   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:08 am:    Note to self: Never hire 'Outfitter' that gets bear attack advice from a rover site.. stop Craig   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:08 am:    sat phone, $1200 first aid kit, $300 500lb of gear/spares, $3000 Blowing a whistle at charging grizzly, priceless Sometimes we take ourselves way to seriously....   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:20 am:    Getting footage of Bear attacking guide and selling on the internet... Good for $26.99 a month per person   John Lee Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:11 pm:    Karen, With an attitude as sensible and good and reasonable as that, your operation must be tip top. Good job.   r0ver4x4 Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:21 pm:    400. Double Rifle will do the trick   chrisvonc Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:48 pm:    Rob, but the peyote down and step away. You are rapidly making less sense every day. If an airline suppiled you with a parachute in the event of an emergancy, would you use it? Chris   chrisvonc Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:52 pm:    oops.. put not but. I guess I'll put mine down too. LOL Chris   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 05:38 pm:    LOL.. "put not but" ???? i really blew your mind there??? hehehe rd   chrisvonc Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 07:11 pm:    hehe.. yeah.. I had said "Rob, but the peyote dwn.." when I meant "Rob, PUT the peyote down..". Chris   Roverine Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:33 pm:    KJ, Good post. I agree with John Lee. Couldn't say it any better. I can truly appreciate what you are saying. Thanks for putting it in writing. Kim but still ROTFLMAO, especially at that video clip ... priceless ...   KJ Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 12:41 am:    John and Kim, Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I really try to do the best I can do, and I guess someone is noticing. (Prepare for shameless plug) I was recently awarded the North American Horseman's Association 2001 Distinguished Horsewoman of the Year Award. It is based in large part on running a viable, SAFE horse operation. My school was rewarded out of seemimgly nowhere, but it just goes to show somebody is ALWAYS watching you! I'll admit, some days a nice peyote button would probably hit the spot (G), but.....(G)...no can do. DAYUM! Karen ;) Who STILL doesn't know how to best deter a hongry furry, unless it's a horse, in which case I FEED it! LOL!   Rich Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 03:14 am:    Hi All, After reading these postings, I can no longer resist the temptation to chime in here. Without repeating my “credentials”, I will just say that I have had at least 2 decades of real experience as a wilderness guide and in wilderness medicine and search & rescue. These trips were mostly climbing, skiing, mountain biking, rafting, sailing and trekking. Nearly all (except the Galapagos and Mt. Everest) were in Bear / Cougar / Rattlesnake country and on none of them did I feel that it was worthwhile to carry my Mossberg 590, 223 Rifle or any firearm for that matter. The incredible improbability of attacks from these animals was only slightly greater than the lesser probability of actually preventing an attack with one of these weapons. There are so many things that are much more important to carry and use than a gun to protect yourself from animals in the lower 48. Alaska is an exception and I would probably make sure someone had a 12 gauge handy on a river trip. For some basic (though sensationalized) information on predator attacks, check out this link. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0827_wirepredators.html I have treated 2 victims of rattlesnake bite (both had grabbed the snake, one thought it was dead, the other victim is blind and was helping weed his garden). I have also treated a bear attack victim and know Troy Winslow, the rancher who was attacked by a rabid cougar in 1994 near Dos Rios CA, where I co-own an adjoining property. For info on cougar attacks in California, including his, check out: http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html I know the painful consequences of these attacks and have studied many more. Still, the last thing I would bring on any of my wilderness trips would be a firearm to defend against wild animals. The utility just isn’t there. I have no fear of these animals, regard them as beautiful to watch and respect their habitat. Each year I catch between 3 to 6 rattlesnakes in my yard and relocate them several miles away. However, I do bring both guns to our ranch near Dos Rios (where a black bear once broke in and trashed the kitchen), but not in anticipation of animal predators. They are mainly for “plinking” (ever seen what 3000fps does to a can of Spam?) and for the improbable, but far more likely encounter on our property with with hostile dope growers, deer poachers or trespassing 4 wheelers who think they are in a remote area and can shoot anything anywhere they choose. If you choose not to carry a firearm in the non-Alaskan wilderness (forbidden in many national parks anyway), consider a “Storm” or Fox whistle, which are damn near as loud as an air horn, and a lot easier to carry around your neck. If there is not a fire hazard, consider a pen flare kit. My NPS issue one is the size of a large pen, has the “muzzle” energy of a .357 and burns as it goes. Just be damn sure you don’t start a forest fire with it. I do carry both these on all remote trips as they have other life-saving uses. Lastly a can of “bear mace” (not weaker human pepper spray) might help you sleep better, if you don’t mind carrying it along. In my experience and study of wilderness emergencies, I don’t agree with John Lee’s comments: “ people do get attacked by animals on a regular basis” unless you count domestic animals. However, I do agree with his statement that a guide is “responsible for the safety of others”. A guide has the responsibility to bring and use the most appropriate equipment and training to guarantee the enjoyment and safety of his/her clients. Common sense to prevent an (unlikely) animal attack and proper equipment and training to treat wilderness emergencies (least likely of which is a predator attack) are far more important than packing 10-15 lbs. of shotgun and ammo with the intention of successfully stopping a surprise attack from a large predator. Also I’ve worked with both sat phones and helicopters in remote (non-military) rescue and they are way over-rated. DO NOT assume that you can just call for a chopper and it will come in time with Harrison Ford or LT.Col. Madam K.C. at the controls. You go out there, be prepared for the remote possibility that you may have to transport yourself and/or your injured buddy back to civilization on your own power. Once you have that well covered, then you can prepare to drop charging lions and tigers and bears. John, I don’t carry any medical equipment that I don’t know how to use, (or would not make a difference in potential emergencies) and as my experience has grown, my expedition kit has become much lighter and smaller than a pelican 1400. To bring along medical equipment you don’t know how to use, bring no emergency food or water, yet pack a pistol to deal with potential threats is an upside-down set of priorities. This is not “irrelevant”. Though you may not be paid to take care of others, you do have a responsibility to take care of yourself, especially if you have a family, or any friends or co-workers who value your contributions. BTW no one should assume that a guided wilderness trip (or offroad trip to BFE ) is without risk. If you sign the waiver you should also read it. Back to lethal vs. non-lethal deterrents. Since “experience” seems to be the true test of anyone’s validity on this site, I would love to hear of people’s real experience with actual predator attacks, how they averted them and how people actually stopped a wilderness predator attack with a gun. Rich PS. EXCELLENT VIDEO CLIP!   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 08:22 am:    When I was 14 I was eating breakfast in my uncles cabin one morning and a bear with cubs attacked the side of his cabin right where I was sitting.. It broke the window next to where I was sitting and then started to rip apart the wall trying to get in.. Maybe it was hungry or maybe it noticed that I was in the window looking at it's cub that was on the ground right below me.. Don't know.. Any way, my uncle who hates guns but, has one since he lived in the middle of BFE had one to protect him self in case of crazy people.. He got his gun and shot it out the other window next to the one that the bear was trying to get in.. The noise scared the bear and moved it back from the house about 30 yards.. My uncle then went out into the yard again walking closer to the bear and shot again up in the air and the bear ran off. I know my uncle would never shoot the bear unless he had to but, the gun did scare the bear away. You would never believe the power that bears have until you really see it first hand.. I was just looking at the thing in shock..   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 10:36 am:    Rich, Thanks for the post. I appreciate the suggestions, which is what I was originally looking for. I also posted the question on a few other boards to see what people come up with, just looking for innovative ideas. Eric N, Your uncle was very lucky. A shot gun or rifle is not much of a match for an angry sow with cubs that is so close. It would take that bear little over a second to cover such a small distance, and even with a kill shot directly to the heart it would still have enough energy to kill your uncle. Luckily, the noise scared the bear away, but he should have never went outside. That bear was curious and hungry, maybe it saw you and thought you MIGHT be a threat, but the moment your uncle stepped outside and approached the animal, that bear NEW he was a threat.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 11:19 am:    It's not like he walked right up to the thing.. But, anyways, he probably would have let the bear attack him and not shoot it.. That's just the kind of guy he was.. He would rather see the bear live then worry about his own personal safety.. I think that he only got the gun cause I was there and my mom would have killed him if he let anything happen to me. He had run ins with the bear before cuase it was living somewhere on the park/forest land that he was in charge of looking after. The thing I remember most about his place was the flying tree squirles.. Talk about cool little critters.. That and his 4 huge Alaskan Malamutes..   John Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 03:35 pm:    Rich, There are many many times when the need or desire for a gun is outweighed by some other factor in the equipment equation. Perhaps there is limited cargo capacity and the anticipated need for a weapon will be outweighed by the anticipated need for some other tool. In such cases, packing a weapon does not make good sense. For these different kinds of circumstances, I try to do what all reasonable do. That is, I weigh the pros and cons of each item of equipment I would like to take, as well as the circumstances and responsibilities I have, and then I make my decision. For example, I pack at least a pistol almost as a matter of course on offroading trips. As small as my truck is, there is plenty of room inside there for at least a pistol and the weight difference between pistol and no pistol is meaningless. Unless it's illegal to pack heat in that area or something, it's a no brainer to me to take the pistol along. However, when I go on backpacking trips, I sometimes don't pack a pistol because of the weight and sometimes because of lack of space in my backpack, but mostly because of weight. On such short trips, the amount of food required is much less, so there's more room in my backpack and the extra weight of a pistol is not unduly burdensome. But on longer trips, the weight of the pistol is too much to bear. I'm not master backpacker and I'm not in great shape (I smoke almost a pack a day). The longest backpacking trip I've ever done was a seven-day trip to Mt. Whitney. On that trip, there was no doubt in my mind I was not going to take a pistol with me. These are friend-type trips, which are the only trips I do. If I were guiding others and responsible for their safety, I would probably pack a pistol everywhere it was legal to do so, no matter how much the extra weight burdened me. Many of your points are well taken. However, I cannot help but read your statements to mean that you are coming from the walking/human-powered type of trips rather than vehicular trips. On human-powered trips, the need for a gun is often outweighed by the need for something else. Or, a gun is just too heavy or cumbersome to pack. Or, a gun is illegal to carry. The reasons can be endless. My only point in all of this is that what is reasonable depends on the circumstances. While you may not pack a weapon for various reasons, those reasons will not be the same for a vehiclular guide. What is a reasonable level of equipment and skill will necessarily differ from your guiding to that of vehicular guide. For example, a foot guide will not be required to know about vehicle mechanics, though a vehicular guide will. It would be negligent for a foot guide not to bring along moleskin or Spenco Second Skin, although it would probably not be negligent for a vehicular guide not to bring it. And so on. "The incredible improbability of attacks from these animals was only slightly greater than the lesser probability of actually preventing an attack with one of these weapons." I have to disagree here. While animal attacks are not a daily occurrence, they do happen enough that I think a reasonable guide carries a weapon to protect his clients and is learned in employing that weapon. That is generally speaking. Of course not all guides in all areas should pack heat and be skilled at shooting. I also disagree that a rifle or shotgun is not going to help in case of an animal attack. It takes only a second to draw a pistol from a holster for a skilled shooter. A skilled shooter is also very deadly, even with just a service-caliber pistol. If the shooter in this instance has a .44 Magnum pistol or something even more powerful, then he is a serious force against even a bear or mountain lion attack. A long gun is a more cumbersome weapon in that it must be borne rather than worn, so it is usually out of reach when the shit hits the fan. However, there are many instances when the shotgun is within easy reach and can be utilized in a very short time frame. I and most of my friends sleep with the long gun right beside us and ready to go in case of trouble. In these types of instances the long gun's presence (as well as its substantially greater power and ease of use) is priceless. "There are so many things that are much more important to carry and use than a gun to protect yourself from animals in the lower 48. Alaska is an exception and I would probably make sure someone had a 12 gauge handy on a river trip." This is one area where both of us see perfectly eye to eye. I'm not recommending the gun as a replacement for those other items. Rather, I think of a gun as but another tool in addition to those items. On backpacking trips, I do the pepper spray and bell thing. I feel silly with that damn bell on, and even think it could be useless or even detrimental in some situations, but I use the damn thing. But I still take a pistol if I have the room and the weight available. "I know the painful consequences of these attacks and have studied many more. Still, the last thing I would bring on any of my wilderness trips would be a firearm to defend against wild animals. The utility just isn’t there." Again, is the bulk of your guiding vehicular or on foot or other human power. It makes a huge difference. If you're going on foot, I can hardly blame you for not wanting to carry the weight and bulk of a weapon. I would if I were guiding others, but that's just a judgment call and an area where reasonable minds can disagree. But if you're talking vehicular trips, I think a guide not taking at least some sort of weapon is being unprepared to protect his clients against animal attacks or, more likely, human attacks. "I do bring both guns to our ranch near Dos Rios (where a black bear once broke in and trashed the kitchen), but not in anticipation of animal predators. They are mainly for “plinking” and for the improbable, but far more likely encounter on our property with with hostile dope growers, deer poachers or trespassing 4 wheelers who think they are in a remote area and can shoot anything anywhere they choose." Agreed. I think these types of situations are far more probable than animal attack. But I also think these are types of situations that guides have to foresee and be prepared for. "Lastly a can of “bear mace” (not weaker human pepper spray) might help you sleep better, if you don’t mind carrying it along." Do you have any experience with the various bear mace brands? I think Backpacker did a test on these a while back, but I missed that issue. I use the "Counter Assault" brand, but the only reason I got it was because it had a picture of a bear on the can. Do you know which of the mace brands is the most effective? My Counter Assault can is old anyway, so I need to replace it. "Common sense to prevent an (unlikely) animal attack and proper equipment and training to treat wilderness emergencies (least likely of which is a predator attack) are far more important than packing 10-15 lbs. of shotgun and ammo with the intention of successfully stopping a surprise attack from a large predator." Agreed. The gun is not a cure-all or some kind of magic shield against shit going wrong. However, I don't think it's something to be avoided either. As I said to John Kruger, there is absolutely no reason why someone cannot be well armed as well as have good judgment. Many people do. And your shotgun is too heavy. When I pack a shotgun, I usually take a Benelli Super 90. I think it weighs about 6.5 lbs., but I can't remember for sure. That and a handful of Brenneke slugs on the butt cuff and I'm ready to go. Total weight is under 8 lbs. Admittedly too bulky for hiking trips though. "Also I’ve worked with both sat phones and helicopters in remote (non-military) rescue and they are way over-rated. DO NOT assume that you can just call for a chopper and it will come in time with Harrison Ford or LT.Col. Madam K.C. at the controls. You go out there, be prepared for the remote possibility that you may have to transport yourself and/or your injured buddy back to civilization on your own power. Once you have that well covered, then you can prepare to drop charging lions and tigers and bears." I think you have the same attitude about sat phones and helicopters that you do about guns. I'm not advocating these devices as substitutes for technique or knowledge or experience or judgment or whatever. I sure as hell can't afford a sat phone and I don't even want one. But if I were a guide, I sure as well would have one. If one of my clients had a stroke or a heart attack or whatever, I can at least try the sat phone to see if a helicopter can be brought in. If that doesn't work, that's fine and I'll try to get him out whichever way is best under the circumstances. Having a sat phone does not mean that one is assuming it'll be the magic 911 answer to an emergency. A sat phone is just like a gun. It's another option/tool at your disposal. It's not a replacement for skill and judgment. But it's something the prudent guide (at least the vehicular guide) carries. "I don’t carry any medical equipment that I don’t know how to use, (or would not make a difference in potential emergencies) and as my experience has grown, my expedition kit has become much lighter and smaller than a pelican 1400. To bring along medical equipment you don’t know how to use, bring no emergency food or water, yet pack a pistol to deal with potential threats is an upside-down set of priorities." I disagree. There is lots of stuff in my first aid that I do not know how to use. Does that mean I should leave it at home? I don't think so. I'm not saying that if someone is injured and I have whatever is needed inside my first aid kit but don't know how to use it, I'm going to jump in and go to work on that injured person. That's absurd. I'm no doctor, but I think the first rule of medicine is "don't make the injury worse". The first aid kit that I bought had a bunch of stuff in it that I don't know how to use. I will probably never use it. The reason I leave the stuff in the kit at all is just in case someone is on the trip knows how to use it. Last year at Moab, Rob Hamilton was with us. Dr. Rob is an ER doctor. As soon as Dr. Rob showed up, I asked him if he had brought first aid kit. He said he hadn't. I then handed my first aid kit to him and told him to use mine if anyone required treatment. Luckily, nobody did. Would it have been preferable to remove all of the items I don't know how to use and be left with some aspirin and band aids? I don't think so. Perhaps on a backpacking trip I might do that. But certainly not for my vehicle's first aid kit. The 1400 doesn't take much room and the extra weight is irrelevant. So I pack it. I think this is reasonable. You may disagree. As for the emergency food and water, I take plenty of both, and then some more, for every outing. I take more than enough and have had plenty left after every trip. What I meant by "emergency food and water" was a dedicated water and food supply that is inside my truck at all times. I don't have this. If I were driving down the highway and suddenly got stranded or something, I wouldn't have any food or water. But then I wouldn't have my pistol with me either as I don't pack heat on a daily basis. Perhaps I should carry both food/water and a pistol day in and day out, but I don't. But I don't think any of this is a set of upside-down priorities.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:18 pm:    Wow. My head was already hurtin', John.... In this neck of the woods, the Southern-Central Appalachians, it's not bear (blacks only here), or cougar (most think they're not here, but there have been sightings) that would have me worried. Even wild boar (which are dangerous), or coyote (yes, they're all over here now), or most any other critter. We just don't have grizzlys or polars or big cats or whatever. But, the single most dangerous thing (aside from 2-footed dangers, which are actually more likely, but a separate conversation) are wild dogs. We have losts of occurrences of dogs playing house-pet by day, then at night they join up with a pack and take down calves and sheep. Usually, though, they're strays that have formed a pack. They'll really hurt ya if they think they can get away with it. For dogs, about any caliber will do. Nothing exotic needed, just a steady shot. IMHO, FWIW... -L   John Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:47 pm:    Les, Hehehe. It's the lawyer left in me. Beware. I've heard that about feral dogs. I have no experience with them, but I've heard that either dogs that people have left in the boonies or dogs that are feral part-time are extremely dangerous because they have interacted before with humans and don't fear humans the way other wild animals do. I wonder what effect an air horn or a doggie whistle would have on these poochies?   Kyle Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:59 pm:    All of this can be summed up in one perfect statement. "Its better to have it and not need it then it is to need it and not have it" Short but sweet.... Kyle   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 05:43 pm:    just make sure you know how to use it.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 05:50 pm:    "A shot gun or rifle is not much of a match for an angry sow with cubs that is so close. It would take that bear little over a second to cover such a small distance, and even with a kill shot directly to the heart it would still have enough energy to kill your uncle." sounds like a spooky campfire story   Kyle Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:01 pm:    Yes and he is actually wrong. I have sen a bow shot bear charge about 10 yards and fold like a lawn chair.. Now , if ya dont get him/her in the good stuff then ya got some issues.. But all this talk about bears I think is giving the big furreies a bad rap , sure they could make a mess of ya but I am not talking about just them. Here in MD some years ago there were three people that got heavily Gnawed on by one seriously pissed off Beaver. Yes , a freaking beaver. Kyle   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:17 pm:    hehe I've had scary beaver encounters. Yes that's a joking play on words but it's also the damn truth - we had several large beaver ponds on property in NY. The beavs had dammed a creek way back in the woods (no problem) but they had also dammed the spillway on our man-made fishing pond (big problem). I used to fuck with the dams to get their ponds to drain a bit so they'd come out and I could watch them fix it (and shoot the beavs that were damming up the spillway). One day Mr. Beaver got all pissed off and let me know it. The Ruger Mini Thirty took care of that, though...too bad I didn't have a whistle or sparklers or somethin - I could have played him a tune and put on a little show for him before I shot him.   John Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:20 pm:    I agree with Kyle. I don't know where John Kruger gets his belief that a 10-gauge shotgun with slugs or a rifle is insufficient for bear use. Both are effective weapons against a bear. The modern 12-gauge slug is very close in ballistics to the old 8-Bore Blackpowder Express rifles, and it was almost universally considered at the turn of century that the 8-Bore was sufficient killing power for lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). The 220-grain load for the .30-06 was also standard lion medicine for American hunters venturing into Africa. Both Ernest Hemingway and Stewart Edward White used the .30-06/220 with fine results, as did Theodore Roosevelt in his famous 1909 safari to collect specimens for the Museum of Natural History. Ivory hunter W.D.M. Bell killed over 5,000 elephant at the turn of century, over 1,000 of which were shot with the 173-grain 7mm Mauser. Unless these animals have changed in the last 100 years, the rifle and shotgun remain sufficient weapons to employ against them.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:35 pm:    oops   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 06:37 pm:    "man eating beaver" LOL.. two sides to every coin   ken Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 07:10 pm:    http://members.shaw.ca/ob1knorrb/humor.html go here and click on John West salmon link some really funny $hit ken   Kyle Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 07:15 pm:    The funny thing is Blue... regarless of what anyone says it happens ALL the time. Its just not Gigantasaurus Grizzer snacking on a familly of Asian tourists in some park , eating Cameras and all. These small attacks arent news worthy and ussually end with a call to a game warden who comes and shoots or traps the furry. Hmmm , maybe the Sat phone is the best option , you can just call someone else to get your ass out of a jamb , that seems to be the "American way"... Kyle   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 12:20 pm:    If the bear is 30' away from you, a heart shot will kill it. Whether it is with a large caliber gun or a bow. Yet, the blood in its system will allow it to act for a few additional seconds. When gun hunting deer and black bear in Wisconsin, I have blown the heart out of many animals, yet they still have had enough energy to run a few hundred yards. It amazes me when field dressing these animals how they ran away without anything left of their hearts. Kyle is right, confrontations happen all the time, only the large predators seem to get any press. All animals can posse a threat to a human, whether it be a large predator, raccoon, snake, bird, or other human. Yes, I said raccoon. It was stated in another thread that whenever you pull out a firearm, it will escalate the situation and you should be prepared to use it. These statements were made in relation to human confrontations, but they also can be applied to an animal confrontation and any weapon. I actually like this saying, "If you brandish a weapon you should be prepared for it to be used against you". Not that a racoon is going to take the Colt 45 out of your hands and go on a shooting rampage.   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:18 pm:    John: When you blow out the heart, the animals nervous system is still functioning until the lack of oxygen shuts it down, hence the animal is able to run for 50-100 yards or so. In a charging animal scenario, the picture is different. Now you're not aiming at the animals vitals behind the shoulder, but at the animals head. With a shotgun slug or a high power rifle or even a large handgun (.44mag, .454 casull) there is enough energy to blow the brain out or sever the spine which would cause the animal to drop. In either case you seem to be arguing that there is nothing to be gained by carrying a weapon. Simply put, if you have no weapon, you're bear food; if you do have a weapon you at least have a chance. You let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Is there a perfect solution to the bear in the woods problem? Just one: don't go in the woods. But if you decide to go in the woods, at least prepare yourself. To wear a .44 mag on your hip is a small burden that may save your (or someone else's) life.   hehe Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:24 pm:    I was once scratched by a crazy chicken after my Pappy cut the head off so's Momma could fix it for supper. The durn chicken ran around for a few hundred yards after Pappy chopped em and the durn thing ran right up my leg 'n scratched me, it did. Wish I had me one of them there sat phones to call the local shiriff to save my ass.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    LOL.... Mike, you still have a chance with a bear, even without being armed. Most 'successful' bear encounters, the person can literally 'talk' their way out of the fight, and the bear will amble off. IF the bear DOESN'T amble off, though, then yes, the firearm is your only realistic chance ("Dang, which pocket did I stick that grenade in??" And, not going in the woods is no longer really the problem, usually. More and more bear encounters are happening in the people's houses! My dad's friends who came home and, with the car's headlights, could see the bear in their house sitting ON the kitchen table. Truth is, wilderness is seriously encroached, and the animals are having to live in much closer proximity to people, whether they like it or not. Hence, the number of California cougar attacks has escalated. The number of 'urban deer hunters', using a bow in Jersey neigborhoods, is rapidly growing. Anytime, anywhere. Be prepared. -L   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:34 pm:    There is a great deal to be gained from carrying a firearm. However, many people use this BB to make decisions on there vehicles, gear, etc... I am simply trying to make the case that a gun may not protect you, your actions need to be able to do that, which may include using a firearm or not. I simply see too many hunters that only use their weapons of choice during the hunting season. They are filled with a sense of power and a false sense of security because they are carrying a weapon, whether it be a firearm, bow or big pointy stick. Unfortunately, many of them do not have the ability, training, or practice regimen to allow a head/kill shot for any animal. Hell, they have a hard time hitting a deer broadside. The point I am trying now to make, came not from my initial question, but the comments and rebuttles from many individuals that may treat their arms with great care, but do not understand that their abilities and opinions are not shared by the majority of the hunting/fishing public.   Kyle Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:35 pm:    "Not that a racoon is going to take the Colt 45 out of your hands and go on a shooting rampage" I dunno Kruger , that bear in the clip might take that pistola from ya... Kyle   Roverine Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:38 pm:    NEVER, never, underestimimate a headless chicken ... just my .02 cents worth. (hehehe) Kim   Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 02:42 pm:    "Most 'successful' bear encounters, the person can literally 'talk' their way out of the fight, and the bear will amble off." Leslie, I wasn't discussing a bear encounter in a generic sense, but a charging bear. Once a bear commits to charging, I seriously doubt anything short of a firearm will save you. Kruger, you argue "that a gun may not protect you, your actions need to be able to do that, which may include using a firearm or not." If a bear begins to charge, if you don't have a firearm, what will you do? Likely, you'll crap your pants and then you and your group will be dead. My point is that with a firearm, you will either have an equal or better outcome. You still have a better chance of getting out alive with a firearm than not. Your logic is flawed. You point out that a gun might not always help, so the conclusion is not to carry one. That would be analagous to saying that a first aid kit will not always save someones life, so why bother bringing it? For that matter a seat belt wont always save your life so why wear one?   John Kruger (Johnnyk) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 02:49 pm:    I did not say a gun might not always help, my point is the person toting the gun might not always help. They will be crapping their pants, too. The outcome also depends on the type of bear and the situation. A bear may charge, but only if it has good credit....   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:33 pm:    this is off the www, so take it for what it's worth (thanks to Bor for the link):   Kyle Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:39 pm:    In that second pic you can tell that this dude has obvious contamination of the undergarments... Looks as if he is wanting to change pretty badly.... Kyle   Kyle Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:40 pm:    Its also a shame to see that big old furry down for the count....That is surely a big bastard.... damn Kyle   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:50 pm:    I know I'd be crapping in my pants if I opened my tent door to that thing looking me in the face..   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:56 pm:    I agree Kyle - my wife's friend up in Montana is married to a real "outdoorsy" dude. They are both taxidermists. Yesterday she emailed us a pic of her hubby kneeling down next to the elk/moose/caribou whatever that he had just shot. The damn rack on the thing was bigger than him. All I can picture is that Gary Larson cartoon where the benevolent polar bear is sipping from the puddle and the dude shoots him from behind and then the taxidermist freezes the bear in an attack pose. Just take a fuckin picture - it sure as hell lasts longer...   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:04 am:    hehheheee rd   Anonymous Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 05:35 pm:    Oh no! No this post is popping up again like a 'bad penny' I just wanted to get it back up on top.