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Kennith
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 12:57 pm: | 
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To all you guys and gals of DiscoWeb:
I am dissatisfied with many of the current offerings of roof racks on the market. Not because any of them are neccessarily bad, but simply because I feel that they compromise in certain areas. I have come up with a way to eliminate those problems, in the design of a full safari-style cage.
No more worrying about damage to your roof rails, I have taken an inventive step to solving the problem. No longer will your old thule and yakima bike racks be collecting dust in your basement, as I intend to provide complete compatibility. Tie down points, wind fairings, a rainbow of colours including anything from tough, powdercoated black, to bright chrome, and a design that will look great with any aftermarket bumper, and even the stock one.
Some other points include:
Light tabs all around
Light protection bars up front
Protection for those alpine windows
Jerrycans mounted in between axels where they belong
Ample built in storage for recovery gear, and it's easy to get to without upsetting the balance of the Disco
Limb riser tabs mounted high where they belong
Ample storage space for a waterproof bag and spare tire, as well as High-Lifts, Max tools, Pull pals etc...
And many other things I will mention later.
My point is that I have just mentioned some of the things I want on the ultimate roof rack, now I would like to know what you want on it. I'm going to check back every day and respond to as many posts as I can, but I'd like to keep this thread clean, so I can help weave all of our ideas into a great product that everyone will be proud to own. Before you post any ideas, know that I do intend to produce these, and I can't compensate everyone. The ideas you present will help me to design the perfect family of roof racks, with something for everyone, and nothing that is useless.
I am a fellow off road driver, and Discovery II owner, and an avid reader of the information on this most exelent site. And yes, these will be made for the Discovery I.
I hope you have some things you've been wishing people would add to their designs for years, and that you have fun posting them.
Cheers allways
Kennith Paul Whichard III
Pennsylvania |
Kennith
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 01:26 pm: |
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Oh, and yes, the rear sunroof will work. |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 02:44 pm: |
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Floor |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 09:39 pm: |
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Kennith,
I'd like to see something very low to the roofline that allows both front and rear sunroof operation so when you're not running expedition kit up top, you can look out and not see bars. I'm removing the stock rails to accomplish close mounting on my own custom rack.
I'd like the floor rails to be fabricated to easily mount either plywood, expanded metal or resin flooring.
For long trips and family camping, the option of a folding platform for rackmounted tent would be nice.
Jerry can, Peli dividers, workable tie-down points and shovel / hi-lift brackets supplied stock would be nice.
Good luck on your design, post some pictures once you're done.
Cheers,
e |
Kennith
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 11:48 pm: |
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Dean and Erik,
There will be a choice between several different floor types, diamondplate aluminum, 1'4" marine grade plywood stained and sealed, or expanded metal.
As for making it fit rather closely, this will require the removal of the roof rails, and since I have never done that, I will try tomorrow to see how it works. I like the idea, though, a lot.
Jerry can racks will be provided behind the front light bar just before the bump up as a stock feature. I have done the math and figured out the best way to mount them. Two will be mounted on either side of the truck, laying down, with the spouts closest to the rack and pointing outward of the vehicle. There will be approximately 10" between the sets of two in the middle. This space helps level the vehicle in a side slope situation by providing a weight and counterweight, not a continuous weight. While the central positioning of them helps in normal ascents and descents.
The tent thing has been in my mind ever since I first thought of doing this, and I'm still trying to figure out how to incorporate it into my design, but it's a high priority, so watch for updates!
The Sunroof bar question is a good one, and I am going to try and tackle it soon, as it is something that actually popped into my head today. I'm thinking about a removable insert to plug the hole when you need to...
Well, I appreciate your feedback, please spread the word, I'm really looking forward to hearing other people's ideas!
Kennith |
Craig Kobayashi (Koby)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 12:08 am: |
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Kennith-
Talk to Chris DeJesus (Mudy_Ovl on this board) He's designing a roof rack that seems to match the criterion you are looking for in a rack.
I am definitely interested in his design, and he is always receptive to input, which is why I think this is going to be a great product. |
Manuel Sandoval (Manuels)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:32 am: |
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Kennith, sounds like you are here trying to leech information for free. You have anything to show yet? I'd like to see some photos.
Thanks. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 04:01 am: |
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Kennith,
"No more worrying about damage to your roof rails, I have taken an inventive step to solving the problem. No longer will your old thule and yakima bike racks be collecting dust in your basement, as I intend to provide complete compatibility. Tie down points, wind fairings, a rainbow of colours including anything from tough, powdercoated black, to bright chrome, and a design that will look great with any aftermarket bumper, and even the stock one."
Wow - those are some big plans. Now, lets focus on the free exchange of information here. As Manuel aptly put it, you are asking for info for free. How about sharing your inventive idea? It may help others help you 
Curtis |
Ron
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 04:08 am: |
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who cares? Get the safety devices one. the gutters don't bend with that, its only the tippy ones that cause issues.
You know what I want? An exo cage like on NAS D110s. Use that for a roof rack
Ron |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 07:59 am: |
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Kenneth,
On the floor, I'd like tie-down points like they have in the back of the D2 cabin.
On the rack, mounting points for more lights on the side and on the back (not just one at the back, for example).
Chromed or white floor to keep the heat down, like the false roof on the older series rovers.
If possible, quieter ride and more efficiency than the LR model, which costs me 30% more on gas than somone who doesn't have the rack (at high speed, anyway).
Dean |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 12:23 pm: |
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I want to see how this guy is going respond to Manuel & Curtis' request / idea -- cranky or in a good way.
And be careful Manuel and Curtis -- what you are asking for also could also be construed as "leeching" as I do not see you two putting something out.
Be that as it may, I say throttle back and let Ken the Third respond. |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Okay,
I'm trying to upload a pic, so forgive the formatting errors as I try!
e |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:06 pm: |
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One more time.... |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:10 pm: |
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Ron,
I've always loved the NAS Defender cages. I used several shops in SoCal in the past to fab-up motor cages and integrated pre-runner bumpers for my desert-style pick-up truck.
I suppose the hard part would be finding some brackets to mount the tube to the body / chassis?
Dean,
Are the D2 cargo tie-downs like D-Rings? Can you take a picture of them - I've got a D1.
What do you guys think about that bread-board plastic material for flooring? It's white, about 1/2" material, and definitely water-proof, however, my primary concern would be weight.
If I can ever get my welder friend to give up his weekend, I'll get mine built and post pics. I'm using 3/4" x 2" thinwall box for the frame, and running the styles on edge parallel to the sunroofs to allow a lower mount. When open, the sunroofs will slide up into the framework instead of under it - they need about 3" under whatever decking I use for clearance under load.
An early concept drawing - lower frame only, and only three uprights in this drawing - the final will have the four uprights running parallel to the slope of the roofline over pillars, just like an Adventure Rack. Not indicated here are the 6" upper section rails either.
When I do get this done, I'll post pics and make any drawings available in .PDF - I have no interest in getting into the aftermarket part business!
Now, hopefully it won't end up looking like a plumber's special - lol.
Cheers,
e |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:11 pm: |
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Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:18 pm: |
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All,
With respect to Kennith wanting information - who cares? How many of these things do you think he'd sell anyway - even if they were the end-all, be-all of roof racks? Ten? A hundred? I mean, do I really care if he takes my ideas and builds something good?
Maybe he'll execute like Rugged Rover - lol. Hell, if RTE or TJM would take our input on roof racks, perhaps we'd get something out of our posts on this public forum.
Seems like John already operates this way when it comes to suspension and bumpers, right?
e |
RVR OVR (Tom)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 04:08 pm: |
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"sounds like you are here trying to leech information for free"
What a crock of shit. I didn't know everyone had to pay to ask questions. If you don't want to help the guy, don't respond. What could it hurt? You afraid he just might build it and sell it at a good price?
Tom |
Brad Russell (Bradnc)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 04:36 pm: |
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I'm all for helping the guy, if he makes a rack that has what i'm looking for, i'll think about buying it. As for what i want, I definately want a rack that goes down w/ the roofline like the Advernture/Safety Devices Highlander Rack. That's the only reason i won't buy an aftermarket rack now. By the way, what price range do u expect to make these for?
Brad |
David Dryden (David914)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 06:36 pm: |
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Ditto to what Tom said. If you guys are that uptight, go and work out your frustrations on some mud or rocks somewhere. If your ideas are THAT valuable, why don't YOU build a better rack and market it. I wish more manufacturers asked for MY input before they made something!
David |
Magnus
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 06:46 pm: |
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Helping the guy is fine. If he gets enough feedback to put out a good new product, that's beneficial to all of us. But let's not forget about our hosts, either. By providing this website they enable the word about this and other products to get out there. It doesn't look like they have a stake in Kenneth's product. I'm off to the Store to order something. I want this site to stay around for a while so I can read about products like Kenneth's. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:02 pm: |
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All - and in particular Tom & David,
Not anywhere in this thread do I see the suggestion that we should not help the guy. Nowhere. Not even in Manuels post. I think it is great what he is trying to do. Improving ideas is what good business is all about. What I saw in Kenniths post was more of a plug. If someone wants others opionions, I think that is great. Don't call it something it is not though...
Curtis |
Magnus
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:23 pm: |
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"What I saw in Kenniths post was more of a plug."
Which is why i mentioned our hosts in my previous post. Kenniths post are very close to advertising. It is up to our hosts to determine if they will permit those kinds of posts or not, and that poses a dilemma. I would like to hear about new products in the pipeline like Kenniths, but at the same time I don't want to loose track of the fact that the DW team does provide this site free of charge for Kennith and others to "advertise". Perhaps they should create a separate area where vendors can advertise their products for a fee? |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:24 pm: |
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K0is!
Doing the backpedal! But tell the truth, come on now and shame the devil! You did not task him for your perception of his plug, you tasked him for:
1. Not participating in some vague "free exchange of information".
2. "... asking for info for free."
3. And then for not sharing his inventive information.(well... this last one is a bit weak as you only implied it in your post).
Maybe it was a plug, or maybe doing a prelim testing of the waters so to speak... or maybe just some unbridled enthusiasm. I do not know.
No matter -- the III has not responded.
Guess I objected to the pontificating tone so early on -- as well as the meaness in Manuel's post.
Michael |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:32 pm: |
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K0is!???
Now how did "Alright Curtis!" get translated into "K0is"???
Computers!
My post was directed to Curtis. |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 08:54 pm: |
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I see it this way: At this point, Kennith does not have a product ready for market. He is simply doing market research by asking for feedback, and that's fine. It's ok to do that in this section of the bbs. Once he does have a finished product however, and if he wish to advertise it, he will have to do that in the Classifieds section like anyone else. I am sure Kennith is aware of that already. There could also be very legitimate reasons why he don't want to divulge too much information about the rack at this time, it depends on what stage of development it is in. I am sure we will see more details and pictures later. I don't think many people are interested in plunking down their hard earned cash for a new product without knowing what they are buying. So, this thread may continue, I am not going to remove anything or move it anywhere else at this time.
Also for the record, DiscoWeb has no affiliation with Kennith and his rack whatsoever, we know just as much about it as the rest of you do.
To Magnus, we appreciate your concern and suggestions. We are not going to add a fee based area for vendors at this time, doing so would jeapordize the integrety and independence of the site. We will continue to rely on income from the items we offer in the store for now.
Axel,
DiscoWeb |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 09:04 pm: |
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Now, for feedback on what features I would like to see in a rack if I didn't already have one:
- Similar design as the Adventure rack, I like the way it complements the Disco.
- It has to be as strong or stronger than the adventure rack.
- Multiple light tabs in the rear and on the sides
- Integrated flooring
- Integrated CB antenna bracket
- Integrated High Lift mount
- Modular bracket system for gas cans, spare wheel, and whatever else people can think of carrying on the rack
- Competetive pricing. If the rack is better made and more versatile than the Adventure rack, you may get away with a similar price point, otherwise the target can be no more than 1/2 to 2/3.
There you have it, Kennith. You asked for it....
Axel |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 01:05 am: |
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Mike,
Curtis |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 01:16 am: |
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Curtis
Arrrrgghhggh!!!!!
To hell with all them smiley faces and animated little icons!!!
How the heck do you make all those detestable icons?? And that jumping cheerleader??? And the flames...
Ne'er mind.
Yeah? Well, double smiley to you.
MV |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 01:46 am: |
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Michael:
You have to 
Then you have to be a 
Then: 
then once you have figured it out, voila:
Axel |
RVR OVR (Tom)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 10:36 am: |
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My input:
It has to carry stuff.
And, important to me, even important enough to buy it even though I don't need a roof rack is the alpine window protection. I am always ending up on a tree up above the gutter line. It would be nice to have something that the truck could rest upon without having to worry about that. It doesn't need to take a slam, but enough to be leaned on and drive past a tree.
Tom |
Manuel Sandoval (Manuels)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 11:48 am: |
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Sounds like some of you got upset with my last post.
I just wanted to see photos. That's all.
You all take some midol please. |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 12:25 pm: |
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Then Manuel, say what you mean. You accused the man of being a leech, you did not just ask to see some "photos."
Don't mistake PMS symptoms for someone calling you on your own shit. |
Manuel Sandoval (Manuels)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 12:55 pm: |
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But the man is a leech.
And why you so worked up?
If he's not a leech, he isn't. |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 01:28 pm: |
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"And why you so worked up?
Now that is an honest question! After thinking about it I guess it is because I don't take kindly to people shooting insults out their ass with no back-up.
So back it up.
Michael |
Magnus
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 01:51 pm: |
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It's also a case of the pot calling the kettle black, Manuel. Have you ordered anything from this site to support it, or are you just here getting information for free? |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 11:25 pm: |
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 |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 01:41 am: |
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Are the points where the factory roof rails attach a place where an aftermarket rack might be fastened?
At first blush, I figure you wouldn't want to put too much weight on these points, but then they are made to support some luggage, right? If the points are easy to mount to (once the stock rails are gone) perhaps I might attach there and get spread the load off of the gutters a bit?
e |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 02:19 am: |
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Erik,
I am thinking that it might be a good location. You can probably put a lot more wight on these points over the gutters. There are also two "hidden" points in the rear that are meant for the rail extensions on the D2. I am not sure if the rear points are on the D1, but they probably are.
Curtis |
Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:04 am: |
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Kennith,
The mounting brackets on the floor can be any type you like - just have to hold stuff down. If you put on a floor (and I presume you will) then I'd like a set of bolt-holes set in (welded into) the floor, that don't stick up at all. Then I can bolt down tie-down points whereever I need them.
And I concur with Axel on his remark about a good CB mount - currently the adventure rack has no bracket at all for that.
Dean |
Andy Nix (Andy)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 02:43 pm: |
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Integrated wind fairing - preferably wood. |
Kennith
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 03:32 pm: |
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Craig,
I am quite interested in speaking with Chris about roof racks. If you can help me to contact him, I'd be glad to share ideas if I feel it will enable us to make better products for ourselves and those who would have them. If you know how I can contact him or him me, I'd be glad to say hi sometime.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 03:45 pm: |
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Ron,
You are right, Ron, the safety devices "highlander" is a great product. It has a very open ended design, which is one of it's hallmarks. Yet, to me, it is that very open endedness that makes it practical for expeditions which can hamper it's usefullness in pleasurable off roading.
I am designing a rack for recreational off roading first. There will be ample space for expedition kit, and even the possibility of an add on roof tent in the future, but our favorite pass-time is my priority. Why? Because that's what I do most. Easy access to essential gear, light weight and balance are paramount in my book. If a safety devices rack will suit one's fancy, then I encourage him to purchase it, as it will not dissappoint. It's simply not what I'm looking for.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:06 pm: |
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Dean Brown,
Tie-down points are a must, Dean, I wouldn't have it any other way. My only obstacle is deciding to impliment them. I am leaning toward the D-ring style tie down points as seen in the Discovery cargo area. Now I could go about this two ways, Provide them at points of my choosing, or use your other idea and mount threaded holes all over the place, providing the the Drings seperate for a custom setup.
I like the idea, however I don't think I will be able to do that on a production scale and keep the price low enough to be competitive. Of course, as with all down home offerings, a high degree of customization will be available due to the limited number produced.
To tell you the truth, Dean I was planning on having four Swiveling D rings on each side of the floor, at the ends of the cross bars for strength. In the middle of the floor I was planning on having two.
If you have any opinions about that please voice them, perhaps you think the locations should be different?
Flooring is an important issue, and I agree with you completely. I believe, however I'd do better simply offering flooring as a completely customizable offering, with the standard being marine grade plywood. If only to simplify satisfying diverse tastes.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:19 pm: |
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Erik,
The NAS Defender cages you refer to were made by our friends over at safety devices so it would meet the current American crash regulations at the time. The Discovery's frame and bodywork do not lend itself to the external installation of a roll cage, so they designed an internal one.
I have forgotten the actual prices, but I do know that you either sacrifice serious legroom or your side air vents for the installation. This was not really a big deal for the Camel Trophy drivers, whom it was designed for. The company is based in the UK, so such an installation would be opressively expensive in the end.
As for your roof rack as pictured in composit photograph (nice image by the way), it looks like it will be extremely heavy. Is it made of steel or aluminum?
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:38 pm: |
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Brad,
The rack does follow the roofline's slope, as I think it is the most effecient way to keep the center of gravity relatively intact. It will be close fitting, and require the removal of the stock luggage bars that appear on the roof. It does look "Badass", and blends well with the vehicle's lines.
Price range has yet to be determined, but I have already found that such a rack will not be a budget item. I am on a constant quest to keep the prices down, as my main goal is to make one for me, and I don't have several thousand dollars to spend on a rack. My goal is to stay competitive with the adventure rack and try to undercut it as much as possible. I should be able to keep it relatively affordable. I'll be able to give a more accurate (and less BS) quote when the metaleurgist gets back to me about the alloy I want to use.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:52 pm: |
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Magnus,
My freedom to post on this website will not go unrepayed. I am well aware of how Discoweb has helped me and all other aspiring and successful aftermarket Rover designers spread the news.
Every time a brand or product is recomended on these threads, it is advertising. Every argument over my motives is publicity. There is no such thing as bad publicity.
I am a supporter of this site, and the only reason I say this now is in my defence, I don't feel it neccessary to tell people whenever I visit the store. This is neither an arguement, nor an insult, it is merely a statement in my defence.
As for my thread being a plug, I really am sorry, but I have never heard the term "plug" used in such a manner, so I can't respond to that, as I don't know what it means. I appologise.
Speaking of the store, I'd really like to have a T-shirt or a hat with the Discoweb logo on it if anyone knows about any plans to market them.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:56 pm: |
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Michael,
I am still unclear about this Plug thing, but I would like to say that I have released some information about my rack. The support system will be described when I am satisfied it is perfect.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 05:13 pm: |
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"plug" means sales pitch
will you be fabricating your racks in the US or UK? |
David Dryden (David914)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 05:49 pm: |
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There's a habit of some people being quick to give other people a "hard time" on this website. It's too bad, as it's wonderfully laid out and moderated. Guess you have to take the good with the bad... |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:28 pm: |
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Mr Axel,
I thank you for your participation. The stepped design is important to me, for aesthetics and functionality alike.
The strength of the alloy I am using is incredible, it is a lightweight aluminum alloy. A variation of T-6 aluminum, and similar to the rigidity observed in Mag Lites. A little stronger, harder, and lighter, actually.
Light tabs will be mounted all around, I'm putting 4 up front, here is my reasoning. Two fog lights on the brush bar handle close range, the headlamps handle a little farther out. In the center two mounts on the rack are two driving lamps illuminating the next few hundered feet, and on either side of those a long range pencil beam, keeping out the darkness thousands of feet away. That's how I'm mounting mine, but however you want to do it, theres 4 up front.
On each side I'm thinking of putting up to 4. On the rear there will be 2 for worklamps, and I may put a center mount there upping it to three.
I know if one put lights at all of those positions he'd probably need an aftermarket alternator, but the point is letting him/her mount lights wherever suits his fancy.
Flooring will be made to suit the customer's preferance.
The CB mount is an interesting question, because I like the one Jerry made in the tech section. So much in fact that I offered my vehicle for testing. Unfortunately, he allready had a testing vehicle. If enough people still feel that a mount is neccessary, allthough I re-iterate that his mount is one I can't find fault with, I will integrate one into my design.
The high lift jack bracket is of great conscern for me, and I'd like to know wheather It would be preferred for me to provide the mounting brackets, or integrate the mount into the design.
I spoke of how my rack incorporates the Jerry can mounts in my first post, and I am interested in how people react to that. As for other usefull storage points, there is room for a large waterproof bag up front. In the rear there are ammunition cans for recovery gear, powdercoated to specification. A spare tire mount will be standard, and mounted just fore of the ammo cans, which incidentally are faceing rearward for ease of access through spaces in the racks railing.
If I was not confident that I could make a better rack than the adventure rack, I wouldn't try. I know I can and though it may be similar in price, it will be better in every aspect.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:32 pm: |
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RVR OVR,
Yes there will indeed be substantial alpine window protection, capable of exactly what you referred to, because I have found the same problem when I off road. I guess they put them there so you can see the tree while it destroys the glass or something. LOL.
Cheers,
Ken |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:34 pm: |
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Kennith
The only thing to remember about a plug is that is never, ever capitalized.
At least in polite company.
MV |
Kennith P Whichard
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:41 pm: |
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Erik,
I've already been exploring adding center supports to my rack via the roof rail mounts, but I haven't had time to take the rails off as planned. Yes, the spots you refer to are load bearing structures. They are mounted directly to the inner cage. And yes I would look into it, I know I am.
I'm not sure how much it will gain us, as you can't put but so much weight above your roofline and keep your center of gravity useable. The only benefit I see is possibly allowing for better spreading of the load, but as I said before I think that would be adding cost for no real benefit, as there isn't really much weight being put up there anyway, just a few hundered pounds at most.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:53 pm: |
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Curtis,
I have a D2 and I don't see any hidden points. (perhaps they're too well hidden). Are you referring to the solid feeling spot behind the alpine windows? And remember, too much weight is dangerous. I am considering using them simply to supplement the allready beefed up nature of my rack, but that dosn't mean that I would actually use all the capacity of the mounts and the rack itself, it will probably be over 2000 pounds easy, which is more than I'd want in my cargo bay, let alone on my roof. ARB's rack itself can hold thousands of pounds, but with 300 up there you would flip on the mildest of side slopes.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:04 pm: |
|
you wont flip that easy,,, kennith are you for real? you answer like a machine.
my gutt tells me you aren't going to make more than one of these racks, if that. lot's of talk here. reminds me of a guy named justin.
rob |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:11 pm: |
|
Kennith,
They are not visible from inside or outside the vehicle. The way to access thm is to remove the headliner in the rear. To add rails or a rack you would drill upwards through the mounts and make holes in the roof. Sounds traumatic and it is, but it is very easy from what I hear.
The key here is stability. The rain gutters can only hold so much weight without bending. These roof rail mounts are much more solid and built into the infrastructure of the vehicle.
Curtis |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 08:48 pm: |
|
"The CB mount is an interesting question, because I like the one Jerry made in the tech section. "
I mentioned an integrated cb antenna mount for two reasons.
1. Not everyone is going to have Jerry's mount.
2. This is personal preference, but I don't particularly care for Jerry's mount. To me, it overcomplicates a simple thing, and the corner of the vehicle is not the most ideal mounting spot. The cb antenna should be mountes as near the center of the roof as possible, in order to get the best ground plane. |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:10 am: |
|
Rob,
Perhaps I am wording things a bit too machine like, as you suggest, I'll try to be a bit more accomodating.
My Point is that a gutter mounted rack, if done properly, can hold anything you need too. My buddy back in Texas used to have a pickup with one of those el-cheap-o camper covers on the back, and it had aluminum gutters. You'd be suprised how much 3/4 inch plywood we used to fit up there. I don't know how much they weighed, but I'm sure it's more weight than I'll ever need off road for equipment.
I am sticking to my guns, however on the center of gravity thing, as it is not beneficial at all to have that much weight above your roofline. If this was not the case, why would our counterparts on safari in remote parts of the world go through so much trouble to mount their jerry cans behind the front seats, in the vehicle. This is to keep the vehicle stable, to keep the center of gravity as intact as possible. I for one, if given the oppertunity will take the risk out of a simple task when the solution is as obvious as keeping exess weight off one's roof.
As for how many I build, it depends on how people like my final product. I will like it, that I'm sure of. I am asking you guys so you can be sure it is something you will like. I know I'm not going to make much, if any money off of this, but it is helping me to keep my mind off of things, and I do really have a mission to bring a good product to market. There are those of you who support my efforts, who see that this can only be a benefit for all who seek a versitile rack designed for them. Even if I never build them, have I harmed anyone by trying what I'm sure so many people wanted to do but didn't?
I don't know who Justin is, but It seems you are looking for supporters by useing an example which I cannot comment on. To put it quite un-machine-like...That aint cool man.
Seriously though, I do hope I have sufficiently explained myself yet again and hope I do not have to in the future.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:25 am: |
|
Curtis,
I am going to examine the possibilities of a rack mounted to these points. What you have stated means their are six attachment points on the roof correct?
I think that's more than enough to support a rack, as you have stated. It might be the case that owners may be a little sketchy about drilling no matter how simple it is, though. It is simply another step, when they could more easily mount it to the rain gutters.
I think, however, that the idea of a rack solely mounted to these points would lend itself to a cleaner look, and that's what some people are looking for. I'd like to say to everyone as well that such an approach would help keep fuel economy up as well as wind noise down. Unfortunately, the side armor of my rack needs the reinforcement of the gutter mount runner that spans the length of the rack, so I cannot impliment it. Adding them to my current design as well as the gutter clamps would increase the cost unneccessarily.
I think they would be a great idea for Erik, though, since his design looks like it would work quite well with them, so I hope he is still reading this. I will continue to tinker, but I think my support system is in it's refining stages, and that it will be all kinds of durable as it is. I will be testing soon, and I'll tell you how it works out.
Cheers,
and tell me what you think,
Kennith |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:31 am: |
|
Rob,
LOL. Damn dude...that is harsh
Kennith,
I am sure Rob is just giving you hell although I am sure that it does remind him of...that guy
Your concerns about COG are very, very true. I never locate liquids on my roof. They are too heavy. I can place 10 gals of gas (2 J-cans) and 16 gals water in a tight, neat row behind the rear seats. Light stuff goes on top with a few exceptions: tents, stroller, bikes, cookware, camp boxes, and other light and sealed containers. The heavy items tend to be a Hi-Lift and (if I had one) a Pull Pal. Maybe firewood if it is necessary. Even my recovery gear and tools go in the wayback.
This brings up other concerns: weight of the rack itself. Also operating height and removability. I have to go into too many garages to have to jack with a rack so I like mine off, but easy to put on. A rack is not a social statement, but that is just me...
Curtis |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:36 am: |
|
Axel,
You are right about the fact that not everyone will have Jerry's mount, and I am looking into the prospect of putting one into my design. Do you think it would be fine mounted a foot behind the light bar on the left side?
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:43 am: |
|
Michael,
I like the bit of wisdom you emparted earlier. It is true.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 12:53 am: |
|
Curtis,
I'm with you on removability. Theres simply not much of a reason to endure the milage hit and restricted parking when it's not loaded with equipment. That's why I chose aluminum alloy, It's absolutly crazy-light and extremely strong.
The gutter mount design I chose makes it easy to locate on and off the roof without poking things with indevidual "legs" It's all one dogone piece.
I have decided to put jerry can mounts on it, the main reason being that since I know people are going to put them up there anyway, I might as well make it as safe as possible for them. Below is a copy of my post about their positioning, please comment if you feel you have any safety tips to offer.
"Jerry can racks will be provided behind the front light bar just before the bump up as a stock feature. I have done the math and figured out the best way to mount them. Two will be mounted on either side of the truck, laying down, with the spouts closest to the rack and pointing outward of the vehicle. There will be approximately 10" between the sets of two in the middle. This space helps level the vehicle in a side slope situation by providing a weight and counterweight, not a continuous weight. While the central positioning of them helps in normal ascents and descents."
Cheers,
Kennith |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:12 am: |
|
Kennith,
"That's why I chose aluminum alloy, It's absolutly crazy-light and extremely strong."
This is erroneous at best. Aluminum and aluminum alloys are inherrently weak and are very prone to stress cracking. This is not to say that aluminum is not a bad idea for a roof rack, but understand that it will have a very limited life before faliure. This can even be extended to alloys using vanadium. They also do not allow for flex and are very rigid. Again - other traits that are not good for energy absorbtion.
I would instead look into a good 4130 chromoly tubeset. They cost about the same, and are almost as light while having a much greater fatigue life. If you wanted the ultimate rack it could still be almost affordable with a cheap comercial grade Ti, but it is expensive to work and weld.
Jerry cans on the roof are a bad idea. People who need them up there will likely have more than two and will want to stack them on end. I would just leave well anough alone with that, but it is your rack...
Curtis |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:55 am: |
|
How difficult is it to remove the headliner (sp. in the back) where the "secret" points are located?
The more I think about mounting to the factory rail points, the more I like it. I do worry about walking on the rack once mounted though. This system (avoiding the gutters) would give a really clean, Safety Devices Trophy look which is the bomb.
A picture of Andrew's SD Trophy rack from above...
Will I dent the roof the first time I climb up there to fold out the tent extension?!
Questions, questions and this weekend I do my cut list with the welder...
e |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:56 am: |
|
 |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:58 am: |
|
To answer III's question, I'm using thinwall box steel and the materials (less decking) are coming in around 38 - 42 pounds as it stands now. Am I already too heavy?
e |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:56 am: |
|
When I had my rack designed, that drop down section on the roof line, as mimic by my rack, was supposed to accomodate an eventual air tank.
Intuitively, the positioning makes sense for weight reasons -- I know full well the errors of going rear heavy.
However, I do not like the position there for cans as it is hard to get to. And I detest your D shackle tie down idea.
And Ax's point (I can never spell that name correctly on the fly, sorry Ax) about the integrated CB mount is crtical. |
Jason Johnson (Discomojo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 09:49 am: |
|
Kenneth,
I've been playing around with different design ideas for the past year and would like to discuss a few things with you offline if possible. One thing if someone could clear up for me...the securing points on the roof...I was under the impression that the Camel Trophy spec roof racks were actually attached to the safety devices rollcage inside the vehicle - in which case the cage actually takes the load (not the roof) and transfers the weight down to the floor board mounting points. Is this accurate? |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 10:14 am: |
|
it's okay kennith...
i never said it's good to drive around with 350lbs of shit on your roof. but i've done it. sometimes is gas tanks 'n tools, sometimes it's plywood and drywall.
i guess that would be one of my requests. make sure the damn thing can hold a sheet of drywall, my adventure rack is ever so tight in the one corner and it's a bitch to stack up more than ten sheets.
also make sure that when it's loaded up with wood/drywall that it wont hit the lights on the front. this is a major flaw of the rack pictured above.
does any one know if you you can fit a standard 48" sheet in an ARB rack? are the ARB baskets the same for a classic RR and disco?
rob |
kennith P Whichard
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:19 pm: |
|
Curtis,
I have not seen anything to suggest that Hannibal racks had any problems as you said. And they are made of aluminum. My trek mountainbike is made of aluminum and I beat the hell out of it and it's fine...
To answer to your fears though, I am having several different metals welded into sections of the rack, and I am going to test them for their strength and durability. I will ask for chromoly as you suggested, but even commercial grade Ti wouldn't be cost effective.
I'll be back later tonight to answer the rest of the posts. I've got to be in for work soon.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Manuel Sandoval (Manuels)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 01:42 pm: |
|
Any photos? |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 02:49 pm: |
|
will you be fabricating your racks in the US or UK?
aluminum can indeed be very strong, and I think that it may lend itself well to this application (rack with even support structure), but keep in mind that it can and will crack over time due to stress. I too beat the hell out of my aluminum mtn bikes and they both developed stress fractures over time in key mainframe locations which transformed them into incredibly expensive works of useless aluminum art. |
Chris DeJesus (Mudy_Ovl)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:15 pm: |
|
Kennith and all others,
Here is a 3-D model of my "Short" rack design. All the mounts for lights, Hi-Lift Jack, antennas, etc. are brackets which clamp both the top and bottom bars for the rack frame and can be placed along all sides of the rack. The flooring is aluminum (fake diamond plate in image) for lightweight. The rack fits both DIs and DIIs (Thanks to Craig K for letting me measure the gutter spacing!) There is a 1/4" difference in the widths, but the rack can accommodate the variance. The first proto will be done in a week and I will be test fitting all the brackets for clearance and stability. Feedback is welcome. If I find that I need a larger rack, then a "Long" version may come about.
Regards,
Chris
Mudy_ovl
|
Chris DeJesus (Mudy_Ovl)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 08:24 pm: |
|
Image file was too big.
Here you go.
 |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 11:31 pm: |
|
Erik,
I cannot answer your headliner question as of yet, but I do know that all the plastic tabs holding the interior side covering on in the back actually are screw caps. These tabs if opened (like a clamshell) reveal the head of a standard phillips head screw.
The Camel Trophy rack you pictured is actually mounted to an internal safety devices roll cage. This cage and rack are still in production and can be made to fit either a series 1 or II discovery.
I think the points will be as strong as you need, Erik, as I have craweled on those rails before while I washed the sunroofs. As for wheather or not you are too heavy, not yet. It all depends on what you do from here. With a little tact, you should be able to keep it at a managable weight.
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:03 am: |
|
Michael,
Why is it you detest the D shackle tie down idea? I am simply curious, because there are numerous other ways I can go about the tie downs. I am just used to the D shackels because we use them in the military.
I guess it's a difficult choice about the Jerry can bracket positioning. It will always be a balance of ease of use and, well, balance. I feel that since they only used a few times daily, the cans wouldn't be all that much of a nuisence there. But for those that feel otherwise, I guess the mounts could be optional, as well as the ammo can mounts. This would allow you to put them wherever.
I see the light about the CB mount now. I've just got to design one. LOL
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:09 am: |
|
Jason
I would be glad to speak with you. Can I e-mail you with information on contacting me?
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:11 am: |
|
Rob,
It will hold a full sheet of drywall comfortably. That's a big deal to me too.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:14 am: |
|
Manuel,
No photos as of yet, I can't start building it until the metal guy gets back to me. I will try to have some 3d models up soon though.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Craig M. Highland (Shortbus)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:17 am: |
|
Quote:Jerrycans mounted in between axels where they belong
Craig |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:17 am: |
|
Blue,
I am aware of this problem, and I believe the alloy I have chosen will suffice, as it is closer to aircraft aluminum. I am investigating the chromoly thing though, as it sounds promising. If it really is that much better, as well as cost effective, why not?
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:24 am: |
|
BTW blue,
In the USA.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:33 am: |
|
I might try and remove my headliner this weekend - after the suspension lift goes in.
e |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 03:51 am: |
|
Quote:
"I am aware of this problem, and I believe the alloy I have chosen will suffice, as it is closer to aircraft aluminum."
Aircraft use many types of aluminum. Could you be more specific? 6061?
Also - aluminum structures get seriously stressed with welding. How would you plan on heat treating such a large object and to what tolerances? This will have a huge impact on exactly how durable an aluminum structure you can make.
Curtis |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 08:04 am: |
|
Good Point on types of aluminum.
I am looking for a rack at this time. One thing that I look for is life expectancy. I understand that if I haul around super heavy loads, I will load stress the rack and gutters. But what about daily use, i.e. mall crawling, camping, a run to the shore, and seaonal changes? I worry about corrosion.
Heat treating is an important part of the process, however corrosion is even more important when regarding overall fatigue. Disimilar metal degradation is something to consider when adding CB Mounts, jack mounts, light brackets, and tie-down rings. You can primer coat between disimilar metals, however that coat can wear away in time.
2 cents from an airplane guy |
gp (Garrett)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 09:53 am: |
|
just another option here. you can 'lug' aluminum if you are worried about welds. i have many friends that build racing bikes to VERY high tolerances. as long as you have a very good welding and use to aluminum you should not have any issues. but like paul said with disimilar metals is a whole different story.
but 'luging' aluminum is essentially glueing/bonding to pieces.....one with a smaller outside diameter piece to one with a larger inside diameter. this was actually pioneered by the aircraft industry and is used in many other industries now.
some of the newer alfa aluminums are even stronger and lighter than the older T6 or 6061 stuff. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:03 pm: |
|
Paul brings up some good pionts. As far as I know, you cannot join ferrous & non-ferrous metals. Aluminum has excellent corrosion resistance...as opposed to steel. So now you have things like tabs and jerry can mounts that are made of aluminum. I don;t like that.
Paul - no doubt about this: the heat treating process is THE most important process when dealing with aluminum tube structures.
gp - what are alpha alloys? I believe T-6 actually refers to a heat treating process, and 6061 is actually the designation of an alloy. I do not think these designations have anything to do with time. 2K,3K,4K,5K,6K,7K series aluminums simply designate the other metals in the alloy. Still, there has got to be some newer stuff out there that I am not familiar with.
Curtis |
gp (Garrett)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:12 pm: |
|
6061 is the generation before alfa, which is the newer version from what i know from my buddies at the bike fab shop. thinner wall thickness and stronger. from what i am told.
i still like chromomoly......not as likely to crack either. heavier for sure, but a little more flexible and maybe easier to repair on a trail.
this is one reason to make sure you are careful when mounting up sliders and other accessories to your truck. i have been using zinc coated washers and such when mounting some items. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:28 pm: |
|
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Mata ah-oo hima de
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Himitsu wo shiri tai
You're wondering who I am-machine or mannequin
With parts made in Japan, I am the modren man
I've got a secret I've been hiding under my skin
My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain I.B.M.
So if you see me acting strangely, don't be surprised
I'm just a man who needed someone, and somewhere to hide
To keep me alive-just keep me alive
Somewhere to hide to keep me alive
I'm not a robot without emotions-I'm not what you see
I've come to help you with your problems, so we can be free
I'm not a hero, I'm not a saviour, forget what you know
I'm just a man whose circumstances went beyond his control
Beyond my control-we all need control
I need control-we all need control
I am the modren man, who hides behind a mask
So no one else can see my true identity
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto, domo...domo
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto, domo...domo
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto, domo...domo
Thank you very much, Mr. Roboto
For doing the jobs that nobody wants to
And thank you very much, Mr. Roboto
For helping me escape just when I needed to
Thank you-thank you, thank you
I want to thank you, please, thank you
The problem's plain to see: too much technology
Machines to save our lives. Machines dehumanize.
The time has come at last
To throw away this mask
So everyone can see
My true identity...
|
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:38 pm: |
|
Curtis,
Yeah, Heat treating is good. The average person does not know that there are 9 different types of corrosion that can relate to type of aluminum, duration of heat treat, and type of protective layer applied after heat treating.
In my field, everything is going to Titanium and composite. But that crap is way too expensive for the average joe to buy. |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 04:12 pm: |
|
To the masked Styx fan,
That's a great song from the theamed album, Kilroy Was Here. One of my favorite compositions. Another of my favorites is Barcelona with Montserrat Caballe and Freddy Mercury, which is an engaging tour of opera and gospel with some rock overtones.
Cheers,
Ken |
Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 04:25 pm: |
|
Mr Morgan,
It is 6061, at least that is one of my main choices. How about some opinions on the 4130 chromoly? It seems there are some damn good reasons to choose this over aluminum.
That is a valuable 2 cents you emparted earlier. To bring things inso perspective, earlier Land Rovers had horrible corrosion problems due to the joining of aluminum and steel componants together. I am glad someone brought this up because it is simply not worth the risk of corrosion of the componants. It is a safety issue because corrosion is not allways visually evident. I was going to anodize and powder-coat the aluminum for resistance to this, but I guess that won't do.
Suggestions?
Cheers,
Kennith |
stynks
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 05:34 pm: |
|
Domo arigato, Mr. Roberto |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 06:33 pm: |
|
LOL
i tell you he is like a machine
rd |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:30 pm: |
|
Garrett,
The only referrence I can find about "Alpha" aluminum is some of the latest round of BS that Trek says about thier bikes. They claim it is an alloy "specifically designed for the bike industry" and label it "Alpha" for Trek, and "ZR 9000 Custom Alloy" as a trademark.
This is, of course, just a marketing strategy. It is really just another way to say aluminum. Most likley it is a variant of 6000 series aluminum alloy. Giant tried this a few years ago with 6013 alloy by calling it some proprietary name and having Alcoa only sell to them for three years. Trek and Easton temed up about ten years ago to try this with a variant of 7000 series alloy and they had broken frames everywhere. You can fool some of the people some of the time...
Damn markeing departments
Curtis |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:36 pm: |
|
Paul,
There is our alpha!
Alpha Aulumina (aluminum oxide)
|
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 11:37 pm: |
|
...er...that is supposed to be "alumina" |
Craig Kobayashi (Koby)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 04:50 am: |
|
Kennith,
Try Chris at chrisdejesus@trimapintl.com
HTH |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 06:32 am: |
|
Damn Marketing companies is right!
That ZR 9000 is still 6061, but with a few additives. Some realists out there like to call the mag content within the aluminium; impurities.
But Hey, we are drifting from the topic.
Kennith,
Build a Discovery contour fitting, medium weight rack that is corrosion resistant, has customizable barckets for "stuff", tie down rings for others, and a mesh floor. Price it under a grand, offer an industry standard warranty, and keep up with demand.
My .05,
Paul |
Greg Bright
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:01 pm: |
|
Does anyone know what kind of alluminum is used on the Hannibal racks? They are alluminum and have many options to mount things to it. I wonder if the mounting points are also alluminum. I've only heard very good things about the Hannibal racks and it seems to me if they can make it work, so could Kennith.
Greg |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
|
Curtis & Paul,
You mean there is no such thing out there as "special aluminum"? LOL
>"Some realists out there like to call the mag content within the aluminium; impurities."
LOFL
...still looking for an Al bike frame that won't stress crack... |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 12:20 pm: |
|
I have no idea on the Hannibals. I would guess 6061. It is cheap, plentiful, and about as good as aluminum gets (with a few mild exceptions). Hannibal likely has the resources required to take care of the metal after welding though.
I really do think that whatever the material is and whatever the design, that heat treatment and corrosion protection are going to be the key differentiating factors. A good 4130 cromo tubeset that is welded, heat treated, and protected correctly will probably last a lifetime. An aluminum heat treated tubeset will likely get 5-10 years. Don't heat treat aluminum and I would guess 1-3 years. The heat treating is critical because it relieves the stress caused by material distortions while welding. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 02:28 pm: |
|
Blue,
LOL. I feel your pain. I hate Al frames. They are too stiff for my taste and the weight savings is not worth the breakage risk. IMO Al in a bike frame belongs on full suspension only. I have ridden a Titus Racer-X (built in your neck of the woods, I believe) for over two years now without so much as one problem. Any other Al frame I have had lasted no more than 24 months.
On the flip side, I have also cracked carbon and steel frames, but it was never catastrophic failure like Al. When Al breaks it REALLY breaks. Steel and carbon just tend to crack.
Not to digress
Curtis |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 03:46 pm: |
|
hehe both my Al breakages were on full suspension. Developing stress cracks around the rear swingarm mount while you're barrelling down ski runs during competition is not good.
I'd still like to see an all-Al roof rack if it's done right. I'd think that a properly welded, properly heat-treated, adequately cross-barred and supported (4 legs on each side at the A/B/C/D pillars) Al rack could handle a couple hundred pounds just fine and also have a good service life. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 04:45 pm: |
|
Blue,
There is your problem! You should never have run Al on downhill bikes. I thought you guys wanted more weight…not less
When put in the light of only a couple of hundred pounds, I think you are right. Al should be fine for a rack. I still see a lot of good companies screw up heat treating though. I think most bike frame failures can be traced back to bad welding or not heat treating to tolerance. 6013 is the best alloy I am aware of for flexibility and durability. The problem is that it has to be kept at near 1200 degrees for two hours and then brought down at a specific rate over another two or three hours. You have to have a very nice, big, expensive timed oven to do this.
Be that as it may, I still think 4130 is the best option. If you want a rack to be affordable, mild steel is still pretty good.
Curtis |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 06:35 pm: |
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agreed - 4130 chromo might be very nice for a rack.
all my Al bike frame cracks were at the welds - surprise surprise. Cannondale cracked at rear pivot and downtube/bottom bracket intersection. Mtn Cycle cracked at rear pivot only. I rode them hard though, so it didn't surprise me after several years of use. Now Ti would be nice if I only had the cash.... |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 06:52 pm: |
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LOL – that explains a lot. Crackendales break because…well…they are Crackendales. They are the only company on the planet who can cake on ½” worth of weld, grind it down to a smooth finish, and then break from poor weld penetration
I always though Mt. Cycles welds were pretty solid. I knew of a few guys who broke them, but they always hammered the hell out of ‘em. They are noisy as hell though. That frame could transmit creaks like no other. I bet you had no trouble knowing it was cracked |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
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LOL - it squawked like a wounded bird every time the swingarm moved - after a few miles the crack propogated around the whole pivot weld and it bound up tight. I did things with that bike that were a bit out of it's scope of services though (rode stairs & escalators all the time, big big drop offs, etc). I also used to do very long high-speed downhills with my girlfriend chasing in the jeep...once managed nearly 19 miles over graded gravel roads/washboards in just under 30 minutes comin down from Crown King, AZ. Had to wait 20 minutes for her to catch up. Schnebly Hill Road in Sedona was another good one. With repeated stresses like that it was just a matter of time. Still, the Mtn Cycle (San Andreas) is a beautiful machine with very nice welds and finish work. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 11:22 pm: |
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You do some nutty shit Blue..stay the hell away from my ride
I never have got into freeriding. Strictly cross country and road. All of my breaks were from simple fatigue. I have done the NORBA downhills at Deer Valley, Big Bear, & Oahu, HI. DV & HI were really nutty. Much more so than Big Bear. If you ever get up to Salt Lake, we will have to go do DV. There are some smooth sections that are so steep I don't like to ride them.
Damn...weren't we talking racks?
Curtis |
Greg P
| | Posted on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 04:37 am: |
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My vote is for 6061-T6 aluminum, undressed convex bead welded, Chromate Chemical filmed, and powder coated :
1. Welding can definitely stress aluminum. If you've ever flown in a C-130 or C-141 or darn near any kind of aircraft that's not covered with upholstery you will notice that almost the entire airframe, deck, skin, everything, is made from aluminum, but it's all riveted and epoxied, not welded. This is because the intense levels of torsion, flex, vibrations and temperatures that an airplane go through would pop welds loose all over the plane.
But down here on the ground, If your roof rack ever experiences those kinds of stresses, your Disco will not make it either.
2. All else being equal, Aluminum is stiffer than steel. All of the 3 primary aircraft grades 2024, 6061, and 7075 have very high strength to weight ratios and would work for a roof rack IF DESIGNED PROPERLY and heat treated to condition T6 or higher. But only 6061 has the bendability and weldability needed. Bike makers use 6061 because it's the easiest to weld, period.
It is possible build an aluminum rack that is stiffer and at the same time much lighter than a steel rack.
The reason Aluminum bikes crack is because the manufacturers grind the welds down flush. Aluminum welds need to be left with a convex bead to prevent stress cracking. This is welding 101 but bike makers ignore it for the obvious marketing reason that flush welds look better. Having said that (FWIW) bikes also crack because maniacs pound the living sh!t out of them.
3. Aluminum is more resistent to corrosion than steel. It will still corrode if left unfinished. But in comparison to steel it's the hands down winner. If chemical filmed or anodized then powder coated it will last forever.
4. Aluminum is a helluva lot lighter. The advantage of this is obvious, not only in how it affects center of gravity, but also in taking the rack on and off the vehicle.
5. Dissimilar metals contact is not an issue as long as there is paint on your roof. As far as mounting lights and such the powder coat on the rack will protect against galvanic corrosion.
6. Finally, Your Rover's body panels, engine block, and wheels are aluminum. They're holding up pretty good aren't they?
(Of course all of this will go right out the window if the rack is not properly engineered and constructed.)
Greg P |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 09:18 am: |
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Curtis, Blue, Greg,
You reminded me of my Cannondale Experiences. I have had the pleasure of breaking three of these 'Crack-n-fails' between '94-'97. In '99 I had to send a Specialized alu road frame back because of a crack. That was one of those special M2 metal matrix (marketing) frames. I am now riding a '99 Klein Mantra Comp Dual Suspension and the only problem is corrosion. But it's probably because I don't keep it clean.
"(FWIW) bikes also crack because maniacs pound the living sh!t out of them."
That's a great quote. |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 02:57 pm: |
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>"The reason Aluminum bikes crack is because the manufacturers grind the welds down flush. Aluminum welds need to be left with a convex bead to prevent stress cracking."
Cannondale welds were ground, Mtn Cycle was not.
Any avid mtn biker has seen piles of dale framesets at the dealer waiting to be scrapped. They are still very nice bikes, though, in my opinion. I'm actually looking for an old swing-arm Super V frame right now if anyone has one for sale...
Still my Delta V shouldn't have cracked (I was easy on it relative to the MC); the MC cracked because of your maniac statement (but no major crashes - all stress came while on the tires). I tell you, Mtn Cycle framesets are a work of art.....
mountaincycle.com
This discussion has me psyched for a new Al contour roofrack. Where's Kennith? Are you still listening? |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 02:58 pm: |
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Kennith P Whichard III
| | Posted on Sunday, May 19, 2002 - 02:59 pm: |
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Sorry guys,
I've just gotten back from drill. I am not feeling too well, however tomorrow i'll respond to your posts.
Cheers...well I'm not all that cheery...a little under the weather actually.
Kennith |
Lance
| | Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 12:23 am: |
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The cannondales break because they weld them to hot. I use to work at a shop and would saw the frames apart and look at the cracked ones. Every time there was big holes where they just packed it with filler rod. The result of that was usually a crack about a half inch or so away from the weld. |
Kennith P Whichard
| | Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:03 pm: |
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Greg P,
Sir, you seem to be quite informed on the matter at hand, metals and treatment for their durability and corrosion resistance. I would be interested in a conversation with you if you would not object. If you would not oppose to my e-mailing you, perhaps you could provide me with your address?
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P. Whichard III
| | Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 09:42 pm: |
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To all,
I am glad to hear that some of you ride mountainbikes. I am not a hardcore biker, but Growing up in Texas gave me the perfect oppertunity to bash about in an old ravine. My first real bike was a Trek. I really expected a lot from that bike, and it delivered all the time. The highest jump I took was accidental. I was avoiding a drunk driver and dropped off a 16 foot highway bridge crossing over the ravine. In case you were wondering, I thoroughly busted my arse. The bike was fine. I now ride a Trek 4900 that's pretty kitted out and love it. Perhaps I might bike with some of you in the future.
My plan is to make a rack that is lightweight, so I am trying to make aluminum work. The alloy is 6061, heat treated to T-6 rating. The gutter clamp design (which I know you guys want to see) will spread the forces of loading across the rack as well as all the way across the rain gutters. The cross-bar placement is adequate, as some of you have speculated. The current design is constructed with seven such bars ( including the front and back bars, excluding the front and back top bars, and the light protection bars). There are four longitudinal runners, with a partial runner in the center for rigidity, as well as "x" reinforcements. The side rails are designed to take part of the load away from the base. Accessory mounts can and will be made of steel, they are kept away from the aluminum with hard rubber shims, and are mounted to both the top and bottem rails for strength. It will be low fitting, following the contours of the discovery's roofline. The Discovery Series I model will an extention for to make it eight feet long for drywall and plywood. The Discovery Series II model is eight feet long allready. Both models are currently five feet wide.
As it stands, light tabs will be mounted all around, and will probably be removable steel clamps seperated from the aluminum via hard rubber shims (not unlike the ones you use when you mount accessories to your bikes).
The aluminum will be anodized and powdercoated for corrosion resistance. Yakima and Thule compatibility is still a feature. Off Road accessories will mount securely via removable mounting points. I have designed these myself and they will be tested beyond their requirements by myself and others.
Tomorrow begins the autocad work on the gutter clamps. I have mechanical drawings I have done of them, but I want them done in cad before I release them.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 01:36 pm: |
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interesting...keep us posted |
Greg P
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 02:07 pm: |
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Kennith,
gzanda@bellsouth.net
Greg |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 06:44 pm: |
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Greg,
I will contact you shortly.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Clif Ashley (Cta586)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:01 pm: |
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How's the rack coming? I am looking forward to pics. Thanks. |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 03:12 am: |
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Clif,
I have modified the feet a little. I know I havn't said much about them yet, but they are the coolest and most inventive part. I wouldn't want to give that away, as then anyone could build the rack and it wouldn't be as special.
It will be made of 6061 T-6 aluminum. It is strong enough, and the way I designed it it will not crack. The feet are 304 stainless steel. It will be chemically dipped and powdercoated. The problem of dissimalar metal corrosion is no longer an issue. This rack should last as long as your truck.
I can use CAD, but I don't have the time, so I have recruited some help. I will get the changes to him today, and he can finally finish the modeling.
When this is done I will try to have an example constructed, but I have limited time. I have been informed that my unit has been mobilized for 6 months overseas. I will still be working on it though, and by the time I get back, it should be ready for construction.
I will install the first one on my truck and test it with an off road expedition. If people give me enough feedback I will arrange for production.
What do you think? If I can deliver (I can) what I have said in this thread, would you be interested? Would any of your friends be interested? It is this sort of feedback that I need to build them to sell. I'd love to hear from people who would like information on a personal level. When the modeling is complete, I am putting together an information packet I can mail to people who are interested. I have determined that there is a market, but what about indevidual interest? This is what I want to know.
Well, I'm dog-tired. I'll touch up on this tomorrow.
Cheers,
Kennith |
leegoldsmith
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 09:03 pm: |
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Save yourselves all some trouble and buy a Hannibal roof rack from Rover Accessories. They are made in South Africa and have been tested all over the world. Its a great rack with most of the attributes you guys want. You'll all have more time to go wheeling. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 10:41 pm: |
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except it's extreemly expensive an ugly.
rd |
Zak Ruck (Zak)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 10:45 pm: |
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yeah, I could possibly live with the looks if it were a little cheaper!! |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 11:32 pm: |
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never thought this thread would see the light of day again, must be a representative from Hannibal. |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 01:28 am: |
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Kennith,
Been awhile on this post - but I thought you might be interested in what became of my roof-rack build.
Finished pictures in my gallery, scaled drawings if anyone wants one.
Cheers,
e |
Dave_Lucas (Dave_Lucas)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 09:29 am: |
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How are the mounts that are connecting to the old roof rack area holding up? How much weight have you put on them? |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 01:02 pm: |
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We had two camera operators (180lb. ea), a jib (100lbs.) and broadcast camera (30lbs.) along with the rack itself at 138lbs. on our recent documentary trip. Six-hundred plus pounds and no visible roof deflection.
While driving, we limited the weight on the roof to:
2 - sleeping bags
4 - inflatable pads
2 - personal duffle bags
2 - coolers (one dry / one iced)
1 - 48" hi-lift jack (never used - not once)
1 - 5G Petrol Jerry Can
1 - 5.5G (at 4 gal.) Water Jerry Can
1 - Small Flambeau tool kit
Each column is threaded with 5/16" 18 grade 8 receivers and rated stainless hex cap bolts from inside the truck. Four points pull the rack down to the roofline, while the two stanchions (never found the elusive third row of factory points!) just float in the gutter on split fuel hose (to protect the finish and pad the weight) at the back.
So far, the only thing I regret was having paid $350 U.S. for what should have been a two-bill powdercoat!
Cheers,
e |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 07:57 am: |
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Erik,
That's a nice rack. When I get back to the US, I'm going to start building mine. Of, course, when I finish, I'm going to have a great excuse for adventuring. I'll e-mail you sometime soon so we can talk shop. I'm interested in how it worked out. My design's allready ironed out, i'm just curious, that's all. I've got an Idea you might want to use, as well. I found an inventive solution to tiedown points on the net.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Greg P. (Gparrish)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 10:01 am: |
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Kennith, where are you logging in from now?
Just curious.
Greg |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 01:56 pm: |
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Kennith,
You're deployed right now aren't you? Drop me a line anytime - I'm trying to figure out how to mount my Hi-Lift to the outside of the rack. Does anyone know if there are square-tube mounting brackets available?
Cheers,
e |
Jason Johnson (Discomojo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:48 am: |
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All,
Have almost completed my first aluminum rack. What a pain in the ass it has been. Kenneth, I used the rail about 2 1/2 inches off the gutter running along the length of the rack like we discussed several months ago. I have some deflection because I tried to span the width of the disco without cross supports but I'm going to weld those in shortly. I have 5 mounts, three close together in the back and two forward. Rubberized my mounts so they won't scratch the gutter. the angle from the mounts to the cross supports is 70 degrees on either side. I also used expanded aluminum as the flooring. Second model will be much better as I have learned a lot about aluminum. |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 09:23 am: |
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Yeah,
I'm overseas right now in Germany. I am just dropping in, I will respond more completely in a little while.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:43 pm: |
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Erik,
I'll e-mail you with some plans that I have. I can tell you now, though that square tubing, while strong as hell against sheer loads, is much less resistant to twist loads than round tubing. The mounts I have designed combat that, turning the twisting load of a bouncing hi-lift into sheer loads the square tubing handles with aplomb.
Cheers,
Kennith |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2002 - 07:10 pm: |
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I'd love to see them. Is Chris de Jesus out there? He set me up when we met in Pismo, and I need to follow-up with him.
Cheers,
e |
Chris DeJesus (Mudy_Ovl)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 05:10 pm: |
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Eric, I'm here. Just reading all the latest bits on the ideal roof rack. What do you need to follow up on? I saw your rooftop condo set-up, great idea. My roofrack design had to go through a revision. I had too much play side-to-side. I've decided nix the towers and use roof bars of my own design and attach the rack when needed. The roof bars can be used for long loads such as lumber or piping when the rack is off. Drop me a line.
Chris |
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