| Author | Message | ||
     Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) New Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2003 |
OK, so I know that snorkels are supposed to suck. Air, to be precise. However, the marketing literature for the Safari Snorkel indicates that it was carefully designed *not* to ingest water (thanks to the design of its top piece). And I didn't see any major complaints about these snorkels. So I bought one. And fitted it. And was out hunting this morning down in the barrens. Bloody nippy this morning, by the way. 17 degrees Fahrenheit. So anyway. I went through a puddle which (before I fitted my new snorkel) I would never have even had a second thought or concern about going through. The water that splashed up from the puddle mostly froze on contact with the exposed plastic and metal surfaces on the vehicle, including the exterior of the snorkel pipe. A small amount of it, however was ingested by the snorkel, and within the blink of an eye my engine is losing power. I initially wondered what the bollocks was going on, and two milliseconds later figured this might have to do with water and the dreaded MAF sensor. Visual inspection of the filter chamber revealed some water in the bottom and moisture apparent on the filter element, which I would never have had without the snorkel. Parked up and ran the engine for a while with the MAF sensor intake hose open to the environment (sans filter) while I dried out the filter chamber, and rotated the snorkel so it faces backwards. Then drove home. Took about 20 minutes of driving before the engine stopped losing power and was capable of providing full revs without any interruptions. Consider this was a tiny puddle, and that there was only a relatively small amount of water in the filter chamber, this has me worried. Is this a common problem with snorkels? What about in driving rain/snow/sleet/etc.? I think I now know why everyone carries spare air filters, but even so this has me worried. I had no idea the bloody MAF sensor was so sensitive. Has anyone ever tried to disable the MAF sensor or does that totally screw up the OBD II environmental crap? | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 626 Registered: 03-2002 |
my understanding of the maf is that it adjusts the fuel to air mixture for the best ratio at whatever density the air happens to have where you are and at that time. so to me it is there to assure correct engine operation, not just for "environmental crap." mike | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1127 Registered: 02-2002 |
So keep it facing backwards! But you shouldn't go fast enough to splash up there should you? How deep was it? | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1128 Registered: 02-2002 |
Oh - is it frozen down there yet? | ||
| Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) New Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2003 |
I was doing maybe 15 mph and it was about a 16 inch puddle, 6 foot long. Yeah, I could probably have taken it more gingerly, but then I never would have thought to slow down for that puddle before... Frozen? Well, there's a 1/3" to 1/2" of surface skin on most water, at least there was early this a.m., and the normally soft ground in the swampy areas is nice and crunchy underfoot. But it's far from being a hard freeze. And yeah, I think I'll keep it pointing backwards... | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2003 |
Donald, I wouldn't recommend disabling the MAF. Aside from providing info for managing the mixture, it seems to protect the engine from ingesting water. If the MAF didn't shut off engines when water enters then you would could develop vapour lock and have even bigger problems. It has saved my but once. Victor | ||
| Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) New Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah the comment about disabling was more of a parting shot than a serious thought. Although, I would like to know how to wire it so as to be able to overcome an emergency in the field... | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Senior Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 627 Registered: 03-2002 |
that brings up an image of an external maf...maybe on the inside of the cabin...it would have to be awfully wet outside before it got wet inside... but then again, maybe i should have slept more last night. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 502 Registered: 05-2003 |
Donald, I have not had any problems with mine. It has remained bone dry everytime I have been wading (I check the filter after trail rides). After mine was installed, my tech said that the template provided for install was off (I forget by how much, but I can find out if that would be of any help to you). Since it was his 4th safari snorkel install, he could see ahead of time what adjustment needed to be made from the template. He also made the comment that if it weren't for his years of experience with A/C duct work, he could not have installed it securely. I had heard that rain would go down the snorkle. Because of our summertime monsoon type rains, I was keeping my snorkel facing backwards. It was just personal preference -- I thought it would be easier to just turn it around when I needed it -- rather than to get out and turn it backwards in heavy rain. I was informed by someone with way more knowledge than I have that was not a good thing to do because it decreases the air flow into the engine. Also told that I was totally defeating the purpose of my snorkle by doing that. Made sense to me, so now I keep if facing forward. Good Luck, Jamie | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Senior Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 442 Registered: 10-2002 |
Some condensation can get in the snorkle, that is normal. There is a very good chance that water never made it to your engine. There is a plug connector above your driver side rear tire that can get wet from splashes. This wire is part of the fuel pump electrics and if it gets wet, it can often make your truck shudder and sound like it is about to stall. If it does stall, it typically takes 20-35 minutes to dry out and then your truck is fine. After I sunk my truck in 5 feet of water, it stalled but there was no water in the snorkle. Pulled it out and it started after it was dry. Check it out. | ||
| Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks, Jamie. As far as the way more knowledgeable person is concerned... sounds like they are talking about a "ram jet" affect ... i.e. that the pressure of the air in front of the snorkel will be higher than ambient due to your forward motion. Versus above the wheel well, where I would imagine the pressure is pretty close to ambient. Versus at the rear face of the snorkel. etc. All of which may contribute to a small change in the engine efficiency. But I don't for a moment think that there is anything *wrong* with pointing it backwards. | ||
| Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2003 |
Jimmyg, interesting comment. Good to know. I am pretty confident that was not the issue here, since for the initial diagnostic period when I was running the engine with the air intake hose disconnected from the filter chamber and just sucking from the environment directly, I was getting good performance out of the engine (able to conduct a power up test to 5500 rpms no problem). The loss of power I described (which basically exhibited itself as no matter what the throttle position, the engine would limit itself to specific power settings which varied up and down over time, generally showing in the range of 1000-3000 rpms in low gear) was only evident again after I reconnected to the damp filter chamber. Sounds like the fuel pump connector you mention would be a good candidate for waterproofing tho. May take a look at that later... | ||
| Brad Ashe (Vodkaman) Member Username: Vodkaman Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree having the snorkel turned towards the rear should not have an effect. Maybe it acts for like a forced air induction system by having it turned forward. When it is facing rearward the engine will still suck the air it needs from the snorkel. Thinking of this maybe the engine would have trouble sucking the air in with the snorkel facing rearward at a higher speed so I guess if your going above 130 mph maybe think of turning it forward LOl | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 504 Registered: 05-2003 |
I'm very HAPPY to hear that  I think I just might turn it backwards again I sure liked it much better that way, it blended in better and was less obvious. When it was facing back, I did not have to keep answering the question "what is that?" Thanks!! Jamie | ||
| Tom V (Cozmo) Member Username: Cozmo Post Number: 195 Registered: 09-2002 |
Its funny my wife gets asked "what is that?" Refering to the snorkel! But nobody has asked me. I keep mine facing forward and havn't had any problems. | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 607 Registered: 04-2001 |
If you truck runs like crap after getting wet, unplug the MAF and it will run fine. Also plug the holes in the bottom of the air filter box and seal with silicone. Ron | ||
| quentin charles neil ross (Qcnr) New Member Username: Qcnr Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2003 |
RAM AIR on a Land Rover HHHMMMMMM...... Most jap bikes are now fitted with ramair systems but they only start to work from about 100KPH and the air is then ducted straight into a specifically designed airbox only inches from the intake, the airflow is also mostly straight ahead. Now I am noaerodynamics professor, but when does yourLR start trvalleing at 100Kph? Also the air that is being "forced" into your snorkel has to make an imidiate 90-100degree turn which would surely create turbulence, negating the effect of the ram air? If you look at the Mantec "tractor" type precleaner then this creates turbulence inside the mushroom leading to the precleanig, which intur creates a slight lowpressure area enabling the snorkle to suck as much air as it needs. It also stops water ingressing when you drive through puddles. | ||
| Gabriel Guay (Gearhead) Member Username: Gearhead Post Number: 61 Registered: 04-2002 |
If you hit that water fast enough to get water in through the inlet, you were going fast enough to force water into the airbox from the drain holes under the air box if they were not sealed with silicone. I have had my snorkle facing forward for two years and we get rain that would choke a frog in NE NC all summer long and drive at highway speeds though this rain all the time and never have had any water on the filter. I don't think there is anything wrong with facing the inlet backwards but, I also think it's good to face forwards. As for the ram air affect, at 60-65 MPH it does start to cause a slight ram air effect but not nearly enough to increase power. I would look to see if there is an overlooked opening that did not get a good silicone seal at or under the air box. I have had water splash from driving flooded roads at 45 MPH after the hurricane get ingested at the snorkle inlet and never saw any of this water get into the air box. There is a very large plenum in the side tube meant to trap this water and evaporate it into the air stream. Sorry but, I think your problem lies elswhere. Just my $.02 Gabe | ||
| Nadim Samara (Discodino) Member Username: Discodino Post Number: 159 Registered: 02-2003 |
Donald, I know what it feels to be disappointed with the SS as I have been down that road...to tell you the truth, the water entered through unsealed mating points between all the parts involved, so after that "dip" I wasted a WHOLE tube of scilicone on ALL the mating surfaces and now I can run the truck momentarily (V8i) underwater (pipes for the distributer and all other forms of electronics). | ||
| Ewan Grenenger (Ewan) New Member Username: Ewan Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2003 |
Donald, Like Gabe I have driven through monsoonal downpours at highway speeds with no problem at all and a forward facing snorkel. From the symptom you describe of immediate loss of power but still running, coupled with the combination of a low ambient air temp and relatively higher humidity immediately around the puddle sounds like ice forming on the throttle plates. There is a great little article at www.canadiandriver.com/winter.htm (Heading "Throttle Icing"). The article mentions the scenario of ducted external air being more prone to icing than slightly warmer air being drawn from the engine bay. Cheers Ewan | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 510 Registered: 05-2003 |
Ewan, Great link! Thanks for posting it - there are several articles of interest for cold weather driving Jamie | ||
| Donald McFarlane (Dsmcf) Member Username: Dsmcf Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2003 |
yup, great link. I do like the hotshot washer fluid heater thing. Although 60 amps is a helluva load. One other behaviour which I have been observing is that (with the snorkel backwards) when powering up there seems to be a little bit more of a lag between control input and engine response. Nothing huge, but just enough to notice. I conclude that the additional length of tube through which the air has to flow creates a small additional delay in terms of the time for the pressures in the system to equilibrate and the air flow to increase correspondingly. | ||
| Bruce Potier (Brucep) Member Username: Brucep Post Number: 103 Registered: 06-2003 |
Blasting through a monsoon is one thing, blasting through a puddle sends up sheets of water as opposed to smaller drops. I do believe you could overcome the centrifugal force of the snorkel airflow by blasting through puddles. That is on my don't-do-list now that my air-intake is more exposed. Oh yea, mine faces forward as well and has stayed dry through choking-frog-monsoons at highway speeds. Bruce |
