| Author | Message | ||
     Wes (Wes) Member Username: Wes Post Number: 218 Registered: 02-2002 |
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031217/1755001456_1.html | ||
| Rupert J (Tehamarx) Member Username: Tehamarx Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2002 |
LRs in China? I doubt it, there's still hard feelings for anything British over there (the old Hong Kong thing). Volvos maybe. It depends on Fords political saavy with the ChiCom govt. | ||
| Anton (Anton_r) Member Username: Anton_r Post Number: 47 Registered: 09-2003 |
yeah and by article I understood that the cars that going to be build there are actually going to be sold there as well, not for export (at least let's hope so) ... I really dislike Ford's politics ... sacrificing quality for cheapness  ... | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1649 Registered: 04-2002 |
Ford isn't the only company trying to make cars in China. BMW I think is already doing it or not far from building them. Sounds to me like many of the CKD D110's will see service in China since companies will use CKD vehicles as a way to get into a market they want to build in. As far as China made Rovers sold in other markets like the US? I guess at the direction Ford seems to be taking Rover it won't matter for me anyway. FWIW, I don't like to buy anything made there but my reasons are political and not related to quality. | ||
| Mike (Mikem) Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 68 Registered: 02-2003 |
Chrysler is already making cars over there. I was in Beijing a few years ago and there were Jeep Cherokees everywhere. Mike | ||
| Randy Maynard (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 709 Registered: 08-2002 |
There is an article about this in last months Land Rover Enthusiast magazine. Apparently there is some consideration going on as China is THE new bigest market. They feel it will quickly become the 3rd largest LR market in the world. I believe it was only Freelanders they will be building, at least initially. | ||
| Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 196 Registered: 09-2002 |
Rans is right, there is a lot of "conventional wisdom" that says China is the next big class market. I guess the notion of a billion people opening up their checkbooks entices people, but I think there is a long way to go before the yuan and Chinese society are really a viable market for high-end durable goods. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2003 |
I won't be buying a vehicle built in China... end of that story! | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 955 Registered: 09-2002 |
China being a viable market isn't that far away. The gov't there isn't stupid. If it sees an opportunity to become an economic superpower, they'll more than likely pursue those avenues. There are a lot of American companies setting up shop in the southern region of China in their economic corridor. There are human rights issues that need to be dealt with but economics is a separate issue. Why do you think Coke, McDonalds, Nike, etc are there already? North Face even has a plant there. From a population standpoint, there are probably more millionaires in China than the US & Canada combined so I'm not surprised to see car companies looking there. There was a time when people said they would never buy "Japanese". I think that thinking has changed now. | ||
| Rupert J (Tehamarx) Member Username: Tehamarx Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2002 |
If you're not going to buy anything from China, you better get rid of your Compaq computer (if you own one) and about 90% (an exaggeration) of your worldly possessions. China IS the fastest growing market in the world today. The disparity between rich & poor is amazing. I have never seen so many BMWs, Buicks, Lexus' in my life in the major cities of China. Ford may put a Defender factory there, but I don't think a Rangie would go over too well (too burgeois and imperialistic-- still reminds them of the Opium wars). As for cheap knockoffs, I've seen their "Yamahas" & "Honda" bikes. They look good but crappy parts. The Japanese mfgrs were not happy with the copycats. Speaking of Japan, China's still pissed off about the rape of Nanjing in the 30's by the Jap Army.(one reason why they sent 2 of their own to life imprisonment for having sex parties for the Japanese tourists). As for cheap products, people use to laugh at Japanese products too (eg. Toyota). | ||
| Sergei Rodionov (Uzbad) Member Username: Uzbad Post Number: 225 Registered: 08-2003 |
" sacrificing quality for cheapness" so what you telling me is that you wont buy Porsche or VW sold in states too? They are assembled in Mexico, you know..  Cheap labor & etc.. And they arent just trying to cut costs - its question of quite a HUGE market to be won as well. Plus there is nothing wrong with chineese craftsmanship. They are very good workers actually. Its just that unlike many other countries they do make better products for the internal market, rather than the external. Only thing is that it will badly hit american domestic labor market - that sucks indeed. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't know where it is you draw the line and over what issue. With me, its about the exploitation of cheap labor. Will I stop buying all goods made in China, probably not - their goods have infiltrated our society to too great of an extent. But when I have a viable alternative for a product that is manufactured in a country like Canada, USA or Great Britian I take it. When China allows workers to form free labor unions instead of inprisoning such rebels, that would be a big step in the right direction. | ||
| Anton (Anton_r) Member Username: Anton_r Post Number: 48 Registered: 09-2003 |
Well, I believe there is a possibility that Chinese products can be good quality, it's just the way they run most of their manufacturing. The workers maybe good there (and they most probably are since most of them worked whole of their life). But most of them are not qualified to build good cars. And also they sacrafice time for quantity (though it may be not the case for cars). Well, anyway, my point is, people in China are still not able to build good quality products, especially technology advanced once. With good supervision, they might be able to. Well, I would have not buy VW that was built in Mexico. Don't know about Porsche, but for such price I probably would be better off buying the ones that are built in Germany. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 392 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL-Sergei Show me a Porsche manufactured in Mexico. It is true that most Porsche Boxsters coming the USA are made in Finland by Valmet (just check the mfg plate at you local Porsche dealer) and the quality is outstanding. I would be happy with either Finnish or Zuffenhausen. FWIW-VW New Beetles and Jettas are imported from Mexico but according to independent quality tests are equal to German-built VW products. If you buy a Golf or GTI it's made by VW Brazil. Also quality is as good as German-built according to independent analysis. Audi is also building cars (A6) in China for local markets. It's my understanding that China requires local manufacturing if you intend to sell to Chinese market. (One reason why Boeing is building planes in China as well-any comments Paul?) Thus, manufacturers are not intending to sell ROW but only in China. If they want a chunk of this large pie they have to play by Chicom govt's rules. As to the unfair trade practices of the Chinese government and control of monetary exchange rates I could go on. One reason why you see the mexican worker unable to compete with chinese even with NAFTA. My 2 cents- | ||
| Sergei Rodionov (Uzbad) Member Username: Uzbad Post Number: 227 Registered: 08-2003 |
Greg - me friend bought Boxter in Dallas last year and it was mexican made, judging from labels, but then i might be mistaken, who knows. I am not beating up quality of their labor - same bod had his Jetta (built in Mexico too) for long enough to prove its worth good word. As of exploit of cheap labor - oh please.. Its all about capitalism, isnt it | ||
| Sergei Rodionov (Uzbad) Member Username: Uzbad Post Number: 228 Registered: 08-2003 |
Oh and Nissan makes its special version of SUVs for China as well | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 501 Registered: 10-2002 |
Greg, Only 20% of boxsters were built in Finland. Mine's german and I love it but the Finnish are reputed to be of equal or in some cases superior quality. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 502 Registered: 10-2002 |
oh and sergei, NONE of the boxsters were manufactured in Mexico. No offense to Mexico. | ||
| Sergei Rodionov (Uzbad) Member Username: Uzbad Post Number: 229 Registered: 08-2003 |
Jack well i guess i got carried away by spanish pronounced markings all other the place then And by this memo: --------- Porsche to Assemble and Sell Cars in Mexico Porsche says it will begin assembly of cars in Mexico from German kits. The work would be under Porsche supervision. The firm says it hopes to sell 75 cars this year. Another report says the work could be at the BMW facility in Toluca and that contracts would be complete before the end of this year. It also says the cars would be mostly for export to the US. Ref: Porsche; 11/24/95;US;English ---- | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 691 Registered: 03-2003 |
Jack, You got a Boxster? Damn, going Uptown. | ||
| Art Vigil (Colorover) Member Username: Colorover Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2003 |
I still love Ralphie's (Joe Pantoliano) line from the Sopranos last season: "... Boxter is a Porsche with panties" I agree. Art Vigil 356 Fan | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 393 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jack- I'm envious of the Boxster, especially if it's an "S". I've been toying with buying a S for awhile now and have seen very few German-made models at the dealerships. I do not believe the 20% figure. More like 60% or more are made in Finland. It's my understanding that most of the German Boxster production is slated for europe markets only and almost all of Finnish production is for export and that's why most of USA is getting Finnish models. Go here: http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2001/October-2001/October-2001-5/October-31- 01-p3.htm | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2002 |
Also here: http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2003/September-2003/September-2003-2/Septemb er-10-03-p7.htm | ||
| Dan Armbruster (Dan_armbruster) Member Username: Dan_armbruster Post Number: 245 Registered: 04-2003 |
I can assure you there are no BMW's that are made in China. The only other countries other than Germany that build BMW's is South Africa and U.S. The BMW's built in South Africa are only for that region, and only two models are sold in the U.S. (Z4 and X5). IF BMW were to ever have vehicles built in China I am positive they will lose thousands of customers. I can guarantee I would not have bought my BMW if it wasn't made in Germany. | ||
| Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Senior Member Username: Offroaddisco Post Number: 1658 Registered: 04-2002 |
Dan you may want to pick up some of the last years issues of Roundel and read past the Bangle bashing. BMW is moving into the China market and they even make 5 Series in Russia. The Russian and Chinese Bimmers are for those markets and not for export. China is the new big market for everyone to jump into just as Brasil was 30 years ago. As for the Z4 and X5 (and Z3) they're made in South Carolina and not South Africa but they do assemble BMWs in S. Africa and have done it for years. I think most of them were or are CKD's. | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 962 Registered: 09-2002 |
People seem to be getting bent out of shape by the prospect that something might be "made in China". The fact remains that if the only way to tap potentially the largest market in the world is to manufacture it there so that it can be sold there, then why not? Nissan did it. Toyota did it. Mercedes did it. Sounds like more and more companies are doing it to get around quota restrictions. I think a lot of these Mercedes SUV's are built in NA now and people are still buying them and I wouldn't say their build quality is any better than German made ones. As far as quality issues go, take a look at the tag on your North Face jacket, tent, etc and see if you think there's a quality issue. I think it has more to do with management than the workers. If the company is wants to focus on quality, they'll do what it takes to get it and in most cases they'll bring in management personal from other countries to accomplish this. Some of China's bigger cities are more metropolitan than cities in NA so capitalism in a pseudo form does exist there. I'd even venture to say that it's probably a truer version of capitalism that what you see here where it literally is the "strongest shall survive". Things there in the business world are quite cut-throat. The gov't's realized the economic benefits to this and have adapted itself in ways to take advantage of it. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2003 |
Sorry for the cross post, but it sure felt relevant to the discussion and timely with the Season... http://www.markfiore.com/animation/toys.html | ||
| Rupert J (Tehamarx) Member Username: Tehamarx Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well articulated Alan. Speaking of North Face, 3yrs ago TNF had a security problem. Their product was being sold "illegally" in China when it was supposed to be exported to the US, TNF had difficulty in getting their goods sold here. I met a dentist who bought a jacket over there for $35 US, retailed in US for over $150. | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 965 Registered: 09-2002 |
Yea I heard the same thing Rupert. In southern China in the economic corridor there is a street there that shops have set up that literally sell original factory products taken from the production line, not knock-offs. You'll see a Sony store or Hitachi store and see all the actual products you see here sold there for a fraction of the cost. Units just get boxed off the assembly line and end up in a different truck that goes somewhere else rather than port. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 395 Registered: 10-2002 |
I don't think the issue is quality with Chinese goods as much as it is with the Chicom govt manipulation of the yuan against other currencies to keep the cost of their exported goods artificially low. That, combined with protectionist trade laws in China for the sale of goods locally gives China most of the benefits of free trade with very little of the down side. Read David Ricardo's treatise on the Corn Laws ("Corn" was a generic term in 1800 Britain for grain) for a great outline on the benefits of free trade. I have to admit that I am not that happy supporting a Chinese govt that does not allow their citizens the political and religious freedoms that most of the developed world appreciates. I keep thinking of Lenin's (perhaps inaccurate)comment that the capitalists would "sell us the rope to hang them with". What happens in 20 or 50 years if a hard line Chinese govt appears that is focused on expansion? My 2 cents- | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 504 Registered: 10-2002 |
here's some good info on the Valmet built boxsters: http://www.986faq.com/1-0/default.asp#004 So Art, you have a 356? Sergei, Your outdated link refers to plans that Porsche has to produce "cars" (not specifically boxsters) in Mexico at some date in the future, presumably after 11/24/95. Do you have anything that states that Porsche actually followed through on that plan? The boxster didn't come out until 1997 two years later and general wisdom is Finland and Germany only. Show me some actual proof of something else and I'll believe you, but so far I'm sticking with these guys: http://www.ppbb.com/board/986board.htm http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14 http://forums.rennlist.com/ http://www.986forum.com/index.php http://www.renntech.org/ Alan, NF quality took a big hit when they were bought out by Vanity Fair Lingerie conglomerate and production moved overseas. I own a wide sampling of their stuff from before and after and the later stuff is no where near as good after the move offshore. I still bought it b/c we have an outlet and I got everything so cheap, but that's the only reason I ever bought NF in the first place. I was diehard Marmot and Patagonia until the outlet came along. Couldn't turn down the prices. China definetly didn't do anything for the rep of NF among the more harcore product users. However, I have an earlier NF Gore-tex shell from the late 70s and it's total crap despite being handmade here in the states. The technology has gotten so much better that a chinese jacket with some sloppy stitches still fits better than the old school gear. | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 968 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jack - point taken. So I guess we can say that quality isn't necessarily a location issue but can be a factor. Not that this is here nor there, but I don't typically buy NF stuff. It's usually Sierra or Arc'teryx but I do have a NF tent and it's been excellent and the other minor items I've had have never been a problem. I just find that some of their items are priced quite exhorbantly and I think that you're paying too much for the name now. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 505 Registered: 10-2002 |
Alan, Agreed. NF's brand recognition and success with the non-outdoors crowd is what led to the sell off. When stores in Manhattan out sell those in Durango it sends a message to a company and the market about the most profitable clientele. The company that bought out NF probably realized that they could just crank the stuff out with a little less QA/QC and it would still sell like hotcakes. | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 969 Registered: 09-2002 |
Yea. I think Ford is hoping something like that happens with LR too, not that QA/QC has ever been consistent but LR has built itself a brand recognition that I think Ford hopes to take advantage of. | ||
| Mitch Williams (Mitch20) New Member Username: Mitch20 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 |
I read something about this several months ago on The Land Rover Chronicle.com, Here is the link http://www.thelandroverchronicle.com/new_page_483.htm | ||
| Art Vigil (Colorover) Member Username: Colorover Post Number: 220 Registered: 02-2003 |
Jack, No, my father-in-law does, a gorgeous '64 Coupe he restored from the ground up. That's part of the reason I married his daughter - I was hoping it would be part of the dowry.  ~Art Vigil | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 507 Registered: 10-2002 |
ahhh. have you ever driven a boxster? and the 1955 550 spyder is that also a porsche with panties? | ||
| Art Vigil (Colorover) Member Username: Colorover Post Number: 221 Registered: 02-2003 |
Jack, Yes, I have. Two of them actually (Admittedly never the S version which sounds like a nice improvement). And a 911 Turbo, 914, and even a front-engined 944. Of course I enjoyed the rides in the Boxsters, but about as much as the Audi TT or BMW Z. It's still a boy-racer car to me. Maybe it's the "Porsche for the masses" mentality I don't get, but a Boxster just can't turn my head like a 356 or a 911 - or a D90 As for the Spyder, I've only ever seen a 550 replica, so I don't understand your comparison, but I'd say no, it is not a Porsche with panties, like the Boxster. Art Vigil Denver, CO | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 508 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well, the 550 spyder is a light weight open mid engine car that was extremely successful for Porsche. The Boxster is based on it. The Boxster may not have the most horsepower, like the 4cyl 550 spyder, but it handles better than any car Porsche currently produces short of the Carrera GT and that allows it to carry speed and outperform more muscled competitors. The TT and the Z are no comparison. As front engine and heavier, neither can compete. I was a diehard BMW fan and was all set on an M roadster till I drove the Boxster. The Z weighs over 400 lbs more than the Boxster and the TT is even worse. Braking is also insufficient with mostly 2 caliper front and 1 caliper rear compared to the Boxster's 4 and 4. Whatismore, neither the Z or the TT features a dry sump engine and subsequently suffer from fuel pressure loss. Think about it, the basic boxster has a 2.5L engine and it holds 9.5 quarts of oil and is dry sump! This may be irrelevant for comparison's sake as neither the TT or the Z can approach the turning G force that the Boxster can pull. I've driven all of the cars you mentioned as well as a few more and I can only assume that your preference is for styling alone, as you don't seem to be offering any performance opinions. However, even this baffles me as I feel asthetic is another arena where the Boxster wins. The Boxster and the 996 are the same car from the steering wheel forward, the Boxster just replaces the big ass of the Carrera with a more sleek rear end. To each his own I suppose and you can "like" whatever car you choose, but I'm not about to let you slander what is one of the most advanced and enjoyable cars that Porsche has produced in a while based on the comments of a tv character. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 400 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL-Jack No need to get one's "panties in a bunch" over some ignorant screen writer's comment. Go to a Porsche Owner's Club (not the PCA) event at Willow Springs and ask just about any Porsche enthusiast and I bet you'll hear only good things about the Boxter. The only exception are those crusty early 911 diehards that believe the only true Porsches are of the air-cooled 6 cyl., rear engined variety (901-993). My modified 2.7 liter 914-6 definitely does not meet with the approval that crowd either. BTW-current base Boxter is now 2.7 liter and the S is 3.2 liter. The dry sump oiling system helps with oil starvation not fuel starvation. After driving several 996's including turbo I still feel the the Boxster "S" offers a great driving experience and better handling despite less power. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2002 |
Don't worry Greg, I'm still maintaining a pretty even keel by my standards. I can't pass up the opportunity for a good sports car discussion on dweb to change the pace a little. Glad you caught my typo on the fuel/oil pressure. I also used the 2.5 L motor as an example as my Boxster is a 98 and has that particular first gen. motor (97-99). I plan to take the Porsche to Willow shortly and have heard good things about POC. So have you read about the Boxster motor swap with the 3.4L 993 non e-gas powerplant? It's an amazingly simple switch (same ••••••, cooling, etc) and gives you the car that porsche refuses to produce for fear of hurting the carrera? Think about that: mid engine and 340 hp. sigh... | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 403 Registered: 10-2002 |
I haven't read about that swap but I have heard of 996 engine swaps up to 3.6 liter. These require modified transaxles. I bet someone will do a 3.8 liter swap in the near future. Those will be some rather obscene panties! The only tuner I know doing these swaps is Roock: http://www.roockusa.com I'm sure there are others out there too. All it takes is $$$$ |
