| Author | Message | ||
     Garrett (Rover7592) Senior Member Username: Rover7592 Post Number: 353 Registered: 03-2003 |
a few friends and myself put a 4" Rubicon Express lift on my friends '95 Cherokee with '31 Interco Trxus Mud Terrains and took it wheeling and i followed in my disco. He went through a mudhole that was a little too advanced for his Jeep. It was stuck with water between 6-8 inches coming in the doors, and i thought this shouldn't be a problem for a Warn XD9000i. Hooked it up to his Jeep (while having my rover running in park), got all the slack out and when it got time to pull his ass out my Disco died. Cranked it back up and tried again and as soon as i hit the retract switch on the warn remote it began to die, but as soon as i let off it stablized its idle. Do i need a new battery or what? I figured a 9000 pound winch could pull out a 4500 pound jeep in some mud. I called a local friend with a 2002 F-250 with '33 Super Swamper TSL Radials, he backed in the mudhole, hooked up the chain, and jerked his ass out of there without even spinning. Pretty embarrassing that a ford cleaned up after the disco. What the hell is the problem? | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2002 |
user error? what wrap were you on? how much cable out? try to block it at the jeep? thought of using a strap and giving the jeep a little pop loose? sounds like the ford came to keep you from looking bad.  | ||
| Garrett (Rover7592) Senior Member Username: Rover7592 Post Number: 354 Registered: 03-2003 |
i know how to use the winch, i had about 40-50 feet out, rover front lined up with rear of jeep. The ford did come to keep the rover from looking bad. Does my battery need replacing or what is the problem with it? I didn't have a strap to hook it to my tow ball or anything to jerk him out, so we called the guy with the ford to come out and bring a chain, so we just hooked it up to his truck. | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've used my winch till it over heated and stalled (the winch not the rig) I'd suggest going by the local Autozone, or whatever you have nearby, and having them do one of the free battery checks. BTW next time you can just use the winch cable as a strap | ||
| Frank Rafka (Mongosd2) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Mongosd2 Post Number: 222 Registered: 02-2003 |
when was the last time u used the winch? what kind of battery? I would have doubled the pull, it's amazing how much suction can be generated, and how easy it would be to stall a winch. Check and make sure that connections are tight and clean... frank | ||
| Runnerma (Runnerma) New Member Username: Runnerma Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2003 |
the 4500 pound jeep in the mud it could be over 9000 Pounds. you could use a snatch block to make it more easy for your winch. Also did your Disco was at idle?? you could also have keeping the rpm more higher than idle, at around 2000-2500 rpm. Thans my poor opinion though. Petros | ||
| Brian O'Connor (Hooky) Member Username: Hooky Post Number: 44 Registered: 09-2003 |
Sounds like a battery or potentially not so healthy alternator... When you stall a winch the sound from it's motor is pretty memorable... but will not cause your truck to stall. When the draw is more than what you are providing, the winch will shut you down. Have your electrics checked. I used to have the same model of winch, it took a lot to stop it... Good luck! | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 540 Registered: 05-2003 |
Garrett, When you unspooled your winch line did you do it manually? If you did not do it manually, did you hear a loud and unpleasant whining sound from your winch when you were motoring the line out? If I understand correctly(?), I think that the winch uses much more juice unspooling the line with the winch motor b/c it is working against the brake on the drum. I'm just wondering if maybe by the time you were hooked up and ready to actually recover your friend with your winch - maybe your winch, battery, and truck just said I'm too tired?? Jamie | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 506 Registered: 10-2002 |
why were you trying to pull in park? | ||
| Nadim Samara (Discodino) Member Username: Discodino Post Number: 165 Registered: 02-2003 |
OK, from this thread are a couple of NO-NOs: 1. Truck should NOT be in park, it should be in NUETRAL with the driver inside the cab, revving it up to ~2000 RMPs. Best have the front hood up for safety should the wire rope break. 2. Never Ever use the winch wire rope as a snatch strap! A, the cable is not for that use, and is not made to be jerked. B, the "only" thing that is keeping that cable from running out when you use it to snatch is the brake, which, is not ment for that. 3. Always use a snatch block when there is a truck with mud to its doors. The total effect is much more than 4500. 4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read up on winch usage prior to operating one. Its safer for you, people around you, the truck, your bank account...everyone/thing! | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2002 |
ok people starting to agree user error I bet it has bad connections at the battery causing the alternator to under charge stting it up for winching induced failure. get a block ,strap and some training you will not need the ford next time | ||
| Jim Reynolds (4x4xfar) Member Username: 4x4xfar Post Number: 228 Registered: 05-2003 |
Also keep in mind the 9000lbs is the first layer of the drum if you dont unspool much cable it will reduce the pulling power. -Jim | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 541 Registered: 05-2003 |
I totally agree with the training. When I trained with Bill Burke, we spent an entire day (at my request) in an empty parking lot just on theory, "what if" and hypothetical situations. Believe me, my brain was so fried at the end of the day that I'm surprised smoke wasn't coming off the top of my head. It was more exhausting than any day I've ever had on the trail. Well worth it, 2 days later was in a situation where I was able to do a self recovery from mud - and I did so with complete confidence. HOWEVER, the biggest thing I learned from training with is that I still have way more to learn - it is a never ending process with ever changing cirucumstances and situations. With so much more to learn, I can't wait to receive my copy of his new UNSTUCK dvd. I plan to watch it frequently. One of my biggest concerns in these situations is that most of us are not out there using these techniques every single day so it would be impossible for these skills to stay as sharp as they would with everyday use. I've yet to come upon anyone just "practicing" these skills to keep them sharp. The absolutely positively mostest bestest valuablest greatest thing I learned from Bill is to SLOW WAY DOWN. Slow way down and think the entire thing through before even hooking up one piece of equipment. For me, recovery is like a big chess game, thinking thru each move to the end of the game. (thinking it out: if I take this action, then this will happen, then... ) As we all know, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In my experience, this takes discipline on my part to apply this process of slowing down - because sometimes everyone else involved is running around like busy bees doing who knows what?? Sometimes, I even have to apply my Grandma's words of "haste makes waste" so that I remain focused and think things all the way through. Garrett, to be honest with you, when I read your words, I was not embarresed at all for you - nor did I feel that another truck cleaned up your disco. Truthfully, I'm just glad you're okay and unharmed!! I wouldn't want myself or any other rover owner near a truck that "jerked his a__" out of there. I had a similar experience a few weeks ago when I received a late night call to pull some teens out of the sand under the Clearwater Pass Bridge. Just as I had figured out how I was going to do it and went to my truck to get my recovery gear, "bubba" drove up, whipped out some chains, wrapped them around the bumper of the stuck truck, and "jerked" them out. I was just glad that I had time to get myself and the teens out of the way before he applied his recovery technique. Don't be too hard on yourself or your disco. Everything is a learning process. Way better to learn by a "perceived failure" rather than a deadly accident. BTW, I'm really liking these little santa hats that the smiling guys are wearing!! Jamie | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Dweb Lounge Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 2264 Registered: 02-2002 |
Interesting. Even though I have a 12k winch; Everytime I pull someone out, I use the handy dandy Masterpull snatch block. But this is only on occasion that I cannot use my numerous tow straps. | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Billb Post Number: 1318 Registered: 02-2002 |
Nadim nailed it on ALL counts Bill | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 544 Registered: 05-2003 |
Nadim, Is 2B in your post one of the reasons why we are supposed to release the cluth and spool out the winch line manually? More specifically, does manually spooling the winch line out offer the best protection for the drum brake so it will stay in good shape to do what it was meant to do during recovery? Thanks, Jamie | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 545 Registered: 05-2003 |
While we're on this subject, I have a question about the "always staying in your truck" part. I believe in this and I know it is the correct thing to do. How do you handle this situation when you are winching someone out and there is absolutely no one else there that knows what they are doing? If you have been in this situation: How do you handle it phyically? For example - under the best of circumstances, you can have someone experienced watching the front while you are in your truck - but what if you don't? And, how do you keep the people you are recovering out of harms way? How do you handle it mentally? (as in overcoming your own "contol issues" to keep yourself in your truck where you are supposed to be)? Thank you for sharing any of your experiences and input. This is something I really worry about sometimes. Jamie | ||
| Runnerma (Runnerma) New Member Username: Runnerma Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2003 |
This is something that I would like to know also. Jamie whats this video (UNSTACK) that you mentioned abopve?? any url??? thanks Petros | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 547 Registered: 05-2003 |
Petro, UNSTUCK www.bb4wa.com Jamie | ||
| Runnerma (Runnerma) New Member Username: Runnerma Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2003 |
thanks Jamie Going to order it | ||
| traveltoad (Traveltoad) Member Username: Traveltoad Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jaime, on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:33 pm you wrote: "How do you handle it phyically? For example - under the best of circumstances, you can have someone experienced watching the front while you are in your truck - but what if you don't? And, how do you keep the people you are recovering out of harms way?" And: "How do you handle it mentally? (as in overcoming your own "contol issues" to keep yourself in your truck where you are supposed to be)?" I will preface my comments by saying that I am by no means an "expert" wheeler nor an "expert" on winch usage. Your two questions, however, seem to go beyond just using a winch. If you are the only one on a run with a winch, you must assume that you are the only one who knows how to use a winch. You should, therfore, know how to use your winch safely. That includes knowing how to take control and direct others as how to function safely (either helping or just staying out of the way)during the winching process. If you are with a group that refuses to operate safely by YOUR standards (it is YOUR winch remember) then you need to give them a choice: winch by your rules or they can find another way out. Sounds harsh, but your equipment can do a lot of harm to them, to you, to others, to vehicles, etc. That equipment and it's safe operation is YOUR responsibilty. This is true when using a winch or when using any of the other dangerous pieces of equipment we all bring out onto the trail with us. That's why finding people you trust to wheel with is very important (at least to me). | ||
| Frank Rafka (Mongosd2) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Mongosd2 Post Number: 225 Registered: 02-2003 |
another item to check is the soleniod block, my old warn had an issue with it, when under load, it shorted out... Nadim...you've nailed it cold... Traveltoad is 100% correct...my way or your walkin'... Another Safety item, I a BIG fan of Synthetic Rope. It safer, stronger and a lot lighter than cable, and it won't kill you or someone near when it breaks...you also can put more rope on a drum than wire, making it easiler to double or triple a pull... | ||
| Randy Maynard (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 712 Registered: 08-2002 |
So many good items here.... Nadim, only one mild disagreement, and that is about the revs in the engine. I kind of see it as a function of how hard the winch is working, the more amps it is pulling the higher the revs in order to get the alternator to deliver the charge instead of the battery. For me it is usually between 2000-3000rpm. Over 3000 rpm there is no additional amperage to deliver unless one has a 200 or 300 amp alternator! I can't tell you the number of times out in the woods where I had to remind the operator of his winch to give it some gas when the winch is running. A weak battery and no revs and the battery will drain in moments! In fact I'm inclined to think that was the problem in this case. Other than that minor point you are right on the money! Traveltoad...you are absolutly right man, my winch, my way, nuf said. I feel bad for Jaime having witnessed how some men think a woman has NO IDEA what is going on and so feel they need to direct her in everything she does. Jaime clearly knows whats going on, it's those men that need some instruction!! Give me a capable woman over an egotistical man anyday!! Frank, oh Frank, you are always right on the money!! Synthetic is the way to go! | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 624 Registered: 04-2001 |
personally I do not endorse reving. Much better to take your time. A healthy battery should last long enough even at idle to overheat the winch. Recovery is not a race. | ||
| Brian O'Connor (Hooky) Member Username: Hooky Post Number: 46 Registered: 09-2003 |
Again a kudo for Nadim! On all points for me. If your 9000 pounder is a Warn it is all planetary, so unspooling should not be working against a brake of sorts. Can't speak for other makes... Also like a lot of Jamie's remarks about a "chess game" a lot of stucks are pretty simple, but some require a lot of thought, and time to make happen. Safety is paramount, and makes the experience much more fun in the long run! Merry Christmas to you! | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 549 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks for the input. My questions stem directly from critiquing my own behavior and actions after returning home and getting rested up from OTR training event. On the last ride out we (as a group) used my winch to recover another disco from the mud. Upon reflection, Bill had to tell me to get back in my truck and to stay in it more than once. It was not easy just sitting there - I was having a mental battle following Bill's instructions because I really wanted to be right there in front of my truck helping to hook up the recovery gear with everyone else. In this particular situation, the off roaders in front of my truck hooking up the equipment were very experienced in recovery. Even so, I had to be TOLD repeatedly to stay in my truck. Since I am a "beginner", I do try to mentally go over what I have learned attempting to retain the knowledge and also keep it fresh in my mind. In the process of doing this, I have wondered how I will handle it "IF" I ever need to recover someone on the trail who knows even less than I do. I have no problem saying "no" as you suggested and I have done that. However, sometimes I have to boss myself around as I do something. Telling myself to "slow down" is a good example. Having also witnessed the same firm instruction to others to "stay in their trucks where they are supposed to be", I am guessing that I might not be the only one fighting the urge to get out instead of staying sitting in my truck? This thread looked like a good place to ask about this. This has by no means been something that I have urgently needed to inquire about. I do have enough faith in myself to have confidence that I could successfully recover someone alone. Just wondering how anyone who has done this went about doing it. Randy, thanks for the vote of confidence - but, I'd still much rather have my abilities underestimated than overestimated any day of the week. That might be just the very thing that will continue to keep me out of trouble!! Thanks again, Jamie p.s. I switched over to synthetic line before I ever learned to use my winch (steel cable scares me big time!) My only little tiny complaint is that my winch hook is yellow instead of pink | ||
| Frank Rafka (Mongosd2) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Mongosd2 Post Number: 228 Registered: 02-2003 |
jamie, never let anybody tell you are wrong, if those invovled won't listen, escpecially when it's your winch and your RISK, let someone else recover the rig...the best thing is to keep the recovery simple, don't rush, check the angles, check the rigging and work together to get the rig out...most of the time, you don't even need a winch to recover a stuck truck, just plain common sense and another Land Rover... Frank | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 332 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good Words, Frank! | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2002 |
I dont understand the whole "stay in the truck" stuff. There are times to be in the truck and there are times you need to be there rigging every block and tree strap yourself. recovery is always a thinking persons game. You need to look at everything and make a sound decicion based on the situation including what equipment you have. MM | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've never been in my rigs when winchin. I have to see how the rope is feeding on the drum. I got my first winch in '79 so I was either taught right, or am just darn lucky | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 550 Registered: 05-2003 |
Thanks, that helps much to answer my questions Jamie | ||
| Brian O'Connor (Hooky) Member Username: Hooky Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2003 |
There is a time to be out making sure the rigging is right, and there is a time to be in a safe place. When you are taking in slack, or making final adjustments to a complex rigging, you need to be out so you can ensure everything is right. As the load upon line is increased, it’s time to move inside. It’s all very situational; always remember valor is the better part of discretion! | ||
| Garrett (Rover7592) Senior Member Username: Rover7592 Post Number: 355 Registered: 03-2003 |
I appreciate everyones responses to the topic, next time i have to pull a jeep out, i'll have a little more knowledge and take it a little slower. | ||
| Brian O'Connor (Hooky) Member Username: Hooky Post Number: 54 Registered: 09-2003 |
or maybe it's discretion is the better part of valor - but you get it - right? | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2003 |
Garrett, Why wait 'till some body is stuck? Just go out there and practice. You can use the opportunity to find the weak points of your electrical system and gain confidence! Also, if you are able, replace the factory winch cables with welding cables. These are thicker, more flexible and can carry crap load more amps. I prefer 1 gauge if possible. Have the welding shop install the cable ends for you after you figure out the lengths. Ali ps. Show the Jeeps some respect since the very first LR series vehicle started out on a jeep chassis! Check out the article on LROI this month. | ||
| Milan (Milan) Senior Member Username: Milan Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just couple more, prehaps different points: When a truck is being winched up something near vertical, like some of the guys I know do, I'd like to be outside of the truck even under load. In case the winch lets go and the truck falls to its death. Spooling out your cable under power does not do much to save the in-drum brake on your planetary winch. It's a friction brake that tightnes more the more load is on the winch. If there's no load, it's not getting worn much. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 560 Registered: 05-2003 |
Milan, That was good. I'm laughing as I type this, but also serious about my forthcoming statement: When the day comes to winch my truck up something near verticle, not only will I be out of my truck -- I won't be anywhere near it. Someone else will just have to do it I might watch from a distance or maybe I'll just entertain myself by going dinosaur bone hunting until it's over | ||
| Garrett (Rover7592) Senior Member Username: Rover7592 Post Number: 356 Registered: 03-2003 |
Took my rover to advanced auto parts and got a new battery, i was able to winch his jeep across the parking lot without it even bogging down, and he hit the brakes a few times but it didn't stop the truck, or slow down the winch. I guess a shitty battery makes all the difference. | ||
| Milan (Milan) Senior Member Username: Milan Post Number: 315 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jamie, I don't do that stuff either (we don't have watrefalls we can drive up here) but I have been in a situation where the truck went off the trail and rather than sit in it and risk rolling in it down a steep hill side, I winched it while standing outside. | ||
| Jay Reeves (Jay) New Member Username: Jay Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ya' know, talkin' 'bout this Bill Burke "stay in your truck" deal is something I don't totally agree with. I mean when I get stuck, I wanna get out and see what is stopping me, and see where my wheels went, and where they should have been going. Having someone "flagging" you is good and will get you thru it - but seeing it fer yerself (in my case) goes a lot ferther. I'm sure Mr. Burke knows the 4x doodoo a lot better than me, but everyone's different & there's no harm in gettting out of the truck to assess the situation and have confidence in whats about to unfold. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from Dixie, yall!!! | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 407 Registered: 10-2003 |
We're talking about staying in while winching for safety reasons. But I always get out. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1183 Registered: 02-2002 |
I think personally there is no problem whatsoever standing away from the vehicle while you are winching, if you're on the flat that us - its far safer to NOT be in the line of the cable or a possible missile shackle or hook. And you can wedge your bumper next to a tree or tie yourself to a tree or another vehicle for more pulling power, and then you're not going anywhere! This assumes you are not in idling in drive to help out, if you're the stuck vehicle. And if you're on any kind of incline then you definitely want to be in the vehicle, foot ready on brake. Dean | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 568 Registered: 05-2003 |
Dean, I might look pretty silly out there tying myself to a tree. I guess that would be a good way of slowing ones self down. If I tie myself to a tree, how long do I have to stay tied to it? If someone drives up while I'm still tied to the tree, I wonder what I should say? Hmmm... perhaps... I'm doing winching meditation?? Now I'm wondering if winching meditation works better on the side of tree facing rover or the side away from rover? Also on a lighter note, when just Bill and I were on the trail practicing winching - he was standing in front of me doing all the winching hand signs and I yelled out the window and told him that I needed some flash cards I was sitting there trying to figure out a way to remember one of the hand signals and decided that one of them looked like he was a grasshopper or a bunny rabbit hopping up on it's hind legs front paws in the air. At that signal, the person sitting in the drivers seat (me) with the winch control is supposed to hold their hands high with winch control dangling. So, I figured no problem remembering that --- bunny (or grasshopper) comes up and my response is "I give up" with my hands in the air. Oh well, it worked for me. Took me quite awhile to quit laughing so hard and get back to the winching lessons. I still start giggling whenever someone does that hand signal. I guess silly things like that to remember are more fun than flash cards, if there even were such a thing as winching signal flash cards!! Now whenever I get in an intimidating winch self recovery situation, I just know I'm going to start thinking... oh, well... I could just tie myself to a tree!! As you can see, simple minds are easily amused Sorry, I just couldn't help myself from being silly |
