| Author | Message | ||
     Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi all, I have been looking at the discreet winch mount sold by DAP (http://www.dap-inc.com/acc_frm.htm). I realise that it is probably best to have a proper winch bumper, but I would prefer to keep the factory bumper, and the more subtle profile of it. I do a decent amount of off-roading in some difficult (read: muddy and rocky) terrain, and would like to have the winch available when needed. However, I still have to drive the truck as a daily driver, and driving around the down-town core looking like I think I'm on safari seems a bit absurd. I suspect that there will be some compromises, but I think there is always a threshold between inconvenient and useless, and I would like to hear others experiences. Thanks Victor  | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 355 Registered: 10-2003 |
If you wheel with spotters on the rough stuff the stock bumper should stay pretty for a long time. I've been wanting to put a winch on my Silver DII and I like the style of the factory bumper so i'll probably do the mount in the pic. The ARB on my TReK (along with the saudi grill) kinda kill the good looking front end of the Discos. When you put an ARB on, you look like every other brand of truck with an ARB. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1162 Registered: 02-2002 |
You can have the best of both worlds: Strength and almost stock look:  | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2003 |
almost stock look?  | ||
| Stephen Hawkins (Madmole) New Member Username: Madmole Post Number: 29 Registered: 07-2003 |
I have the Bearmach discrete winch with an Warm M8000 on it (The DAP one is probably the bearmach or a copy of it) on my D2 TD5 Works well, not that noticable when on the road and the lower position pulls you up and out. Pro's Fairly easy to fit. Trimming the grill took longer than fitting Control box can be put behind grill so out of sight (plug in through grill slots) Keeps C of G low and is inboard or bumper so little noticable effect on handling Wiring is dead easy and your right by the Battery Doesn't mow down Pedestrians Cons Low, so gets wetter Have to get on knees to put hand up under to get to freespool lever Max size winch you can fit in there is Warn XD9000 Nowhere easy on D2 to rig a second battery for the winch (but do you need one?) Can't see the spool so easily to check its spooling evenly I'm very happy with mine | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dean, Sorry Dean, but I am reluctant to do the new bumper thing. Right now I have a polyurethane A-bar similar to the LR OEM, and 2 Hella Rallye 4000s and that's about as exotic as I would like to go. My emphasis is going to be on maximising the off-road capabilities while maintaining the factory look. So tires, underside protection, diff locks and winch are on the list. Two inch lifts, Adventure Racks and snorkels are low on the list. I think there is a point where the capabilities of the Discovery can be significantly better than 95% of 4x4s without looking significantly different from factory. Then again a factory Disco is pretty capable without modification, but it does have some vulnerabilities. I've always been a fan of the "sleeper" that everyone underestimates. Besides, the baby seat just plain looks stupid with mudders, 3" lift, snorkel and adventure rack. Victor | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1165 Registered: 02-2002 |
Victor, Look at the picture you posted up top. Now tell me how much access do you have to the winch? So many times you have to see whats going on, because the line gets caught up and starts reversing back in on itself when its supposed to be winding out, you got to be able to see where its trapped and yank it out as hard as you can in the right position. Its not at all convenient to torque the line in properly, if you're using it multiple times in one day. | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2003 |
Stephen, You mention impact on handling. The extra weight up front is something that I have wondered about. Most info on the impact of installing a winch is in the context of going from factory to heavy steel bumper and winch. Do you think it would be advisable to get new springs, or can I live with the factory? I like the idea of OME springs and shocks, but the increase in ride height of the HD units are brushing against my objective. Victor | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2003 |
use synthetic line. You have a lot more room on the drum and it's much more forgiving to being spooled up into a rats nest, so you dont have to lay on your back on the ground and watch it spool in. ...and this IS the 21st century, who still used cable? | ||
| Eugene (Eugene) Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 144 Registered: 02-2003 |
Victor, I'm not sure how much your polyurethane A-bar weighs, but a Warn 9000 lb. winch weighs anywhere from 85-95 lbs. Some of the higher-capacity winches from Superwinch or Ramsey weigh in excess of 110 lbs. When I had an ARB front bumper installed on my D2 (about 110 lbs.), I lost about 1" in height. What that meant was that I got caught in obstacles that I would not have otherwise. If you are planning on a discrete winch mounting, the added weight of the winch may place your winch closer to the ground and obstacles. If you plan on adding a winch, consider the HD spring/shock upgrade. Most people here (including myself) found that the ride actually improved after the suspension upgrade. -Eugene | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1375 Registered: 02-2003 |
Victor i usually do not advise this but it sounds like you are a good canidate for a removable winch. http://www.warn.com/truck/mounting-systems/multi_mount.shtml this is an example. you can insert it into your rear hitch or install a front hitch point which can also be used for recovery. since you have not trimmed your front bumper i dont think you are going to be going anywhere really nasty. when the mud and rocks get deep this type of winch mount can be less than desirable. but for you you can drive around town winch free, not worring about extra wieght and things and then when you go wheeling you strap the winch in the cargo area and only insert it when you need it. just a thought rd | ||
| Alyssa Brown (Alyssa) Senior Member Username: Alyssa Post Number: 387 Registered: 01-2003 |
The point about the winch getting wetter is a good one. Our friend Dom's winch quits every time it gets wet, which is usually when you need it most. FWIW, LR makes a genuine winch kit that is "stock." We had it on our car, and it looked nice. If you get the hard plastic cover, it looks very nice. | ||
| Wes (Wes) Member Username: Wes Post Number: 219 Registered: 02-2002 |
How about the TJM T17?  | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've used my Warn M8000 on my Jeep underwater a few times. It worked just fine. | ||
| jimmy l hicks jr (Dirtyjim) New Member Username: Dirtyjim Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2003 |
right now would be a good time to buy.4 wheel parts has warn M8000 winches on sale for $499 and my discreet winch mount was $144 shipped. | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2003 |
Victor, The DAP winch mount is discrete. Just like what is offered by TJM in the way of an optional winch basket. However, the TJM winch mount negates the ability to use a Jate Ring. Instead, a recovery hook is accepted into one of two slots in the underside of tray. With the DAP mount, what do you have left for a front recovery point? -Barry | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 380 Registered: 10-2003 |
just winch yourself out... | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2003 |
Barry, You raise a observation that I had too. If you look at the discreet mount in the picture in my original post, it does have two recovery points, but they are on the A-Bar that was originally mounted to the truck. That is visable in the other photos that are in the article that I lifted the photo from (http://www.disco2.com/howto/offroader/discreetwinch/) By the look of it, I could keep the factory recovery points, even adding a second on the passenger side frame rail. The advantage being that the factory recovery point extends past the airdam, where as the jate ring (which I also have) is mounted far enough back on the frame rail that it is impossable to get at once I'm stuck. With two points, like the in the picture, I can keep the airdam, have easy access to the recovery points and attach a bridle to distribute the stress accross the two frame rails. Victor | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 49 Registered: 08-2003 |
I'm hoping to build something like this http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/images/406willi5.jpg definitely not keeping the stock look Jeff | ||
| Brendan Kearns (Howboucha) Member Username: Howboucha Post Number: 155 Registered: 01-2003 |
Just do this. It's okay to have it sticking out. Show it off and be proud of what you have!   Downfalls, makes it easy to hit another car while parking in a lot. Sucks when you walk in front of the XD at night, forget the fairlead is on front and crack your knee cap on it. Brendan 97 XD 98 LE | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2003 |
Victor, Ok, now I see the two shackles in the photo. You are right on about the benefit of using a bridle. I like your thoughts about keeping the DSII a sleeper. The DSII is such a capable vehicle on its own merit. IMHO, most kit is not installed out of necessity, but rather a need to make a fashion statement. Regarding the low mounting position. Spooling-in will be a hassle with the limited visibility of the DAP. Go with synthetic rope from the start. You will have no worries about kinks and loose layers of rope cutting and crimping subsequent layers. More importantly, synthetic rope lowers one of the inherent risks of winching... being maimed or killed by a steel whip. You could also go with a lower profile hawse fairlead. A nice billet aluminum one can be found at http://www.masterpull.com/item.cfm?itemid=9143 -Barry | ||
| Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Koby Post Number: 787 Registered: 02-2002 |
Not planning on keeping the stock look? I hope you don't consider these two designs... http://koby.sigmadata.net/catchermask.jpg http://koby.sigmadata.net/cluckbumper.jpg | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 383 Registered: 10-2003 |
Craig, thats some funny stuff!! Chickens always make me laugh | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 51 Registered: 08-2003 |
Damn - is that a 3 legged rooster or is it just happy to be sitting on a Unimog | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, just what is up with these chickens?  | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2003 |
Craig, That cluck bumper looks like Jeff's project. I had thought about something like that, but I wanted to add some military surplus active armour. I figured it could do double duty: Permanently maim people that do those anonymous parking lot dings, and trimming out any rocks or tree that try to crease my body pannels. I then realised that this would be very un-"Tread Lightly", and the sachel charge like bags hanging around the truck would spoil its beautiful lines, so I decided that wasn't going to work. Barry: The thing that concerns me about the combination of the discreet mount and the synthetic line is the potential for heat from the brake in the drum damaging the line. Apparently the Warn has their brake in the drum which generates heat sufficient to melt the first layer on the drum. Where as the Superwinch doesn't have this problem with their Husky, but I don't think it will fit the discreet mount. It sure would be the best combination though: Synthetic line, discreet mount and a black anodyzed aluminium fairlead. Victor | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 385 Registered: 10-2003 |
My synthetic line from MEPCO is in great shape and its been on my Warn for three years. (with a bunch of winchin) Where did you hear this. | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lewis, That could be completely possible. I have no direct experience with this problem. I read of it in a number of articles, including something that was said on EE's coverage of the SEMA 2003 show (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/sema2003). I have heard of hybrid lines where the first layer is steel, and the rest synthetic. Apparently this gives you the advantage of both. I also sent an e-mail to the author of the disco2.com article, Ross Maybey, to get his feedback after a year of ownership. Overall he was very positive, and raised many of the same issues that Stephen did. By the sound of it, most of the objections are related to the cons that Stephen mentioned. With the exception of the free spooling switch accessibility, most are addressable. Winch gets wet: Well this is the case regardless of where the winch is. I think the right choice of winch and decent installation of the electrics should help this. Maximum Winch Size: I agree that the top-end size is less than optimal, but given that having a winch is better than not in most situations, I'll have to live with it. Re-spooling the winch: Very true, and something that I had some concerns about. As a result I was looking at, as Barry suggested, synthetic line. I'm not sure how much of an issue the heat from the drum will be, but the ideal might be to find a hybrid line. If someone knows of a manufacturer let me know. Then again, Lewis seems happy with his after three years. Low position: It always seems that the winch isn't in the ideal spot. Admittedly, this might happen more often than if it were on a bumper, but realistically, if it were 6 to 8 inches higher it would still be too low for some circumstances. As I suspected, it's going to be a decission based on what I'm prepared to compromise, as opposed to a critical issue like the mount being of poor quality, or prone to failures. Thanks everyone for your input. Cheers and Happy Holidays Victor | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1176 Registered: 02-2002 |
Victor stop fucking around. By the time you buy a discreet winch mount, a couple of jate rings, a synthetic line (coz you cant see it winding in), you might as well get a rovertym bumper, they are around $550 and they are easily the strongest out there, they are small and light, simple to install, they are not to obtrusive, in fact they are absolute works of art and workmanship. You can weld or bolt on your brush bar in a day, and you'll then have a perfect, highly accessible winch tray that's high up and well protected, two integral recovery points, and the ability to jack the vehicle up on one corner because its so strong. | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dean, Agreed, the rovertym bumper is very nice, but I am not "Fucking around". I have a specific set of criterion that I am working with, and the rovertym doesn't fit the bill. If I didn't spend 95% of my time in the city, running around doing things like picking up my wife's 95 year-old grandmother, I'd have a 2 inch lift and 245/75-16 Goodyear MT/Rs. She already needs a step to get in, and moving to a rope ladder is out of the question. The reality is I - like many others - do have competing priorities with my time off-road. I would venture that "Fucking around" would be blowing the money on the thing installing it and discovering it was useless. As it is, I now have some information from someone that actually owns and uses the thing off road, and will make a $1000+ buying decision based on information not speculation on what Dean's ideal bumper would be. Victor | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1178 Registered: 02-2002 |
Victor, You said so yourself, you do a decent amount of offroading in difficult terrain (mud), and I suspect once you get a winch system you're gonna be doing a lot more and getting stuck a lot more So now that turns into quite a lot of wheeling doesn't it? Now you try to lie down in a cold mud hole to access that winch when you're stuck, possible even under water. You won't want to do that very often! Fishing around for shackles in icy water is an incredible pain (literally), so just imageine if your entire winch is submersed and you need to access it. The point I was trying to make is that you're not gonna be able to see much with that discreet mount. Even with winch rope you still see the line turn round and effectively reverse direction as it gets kinked up internally, and its hard enough to untangle that even when you can see what you're doing. When I said stop fucking around I really meant that in a light-hearted manner , sorry if I offended! But the RTE (what I have) is actually one of the lighter bumpers (despite its 1/4" box section), and it didn't make any significant difference in the height of my vehicle up front. In other words you won't need a lift any more that what you have right now. | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dean, Please don't misunderstand me. I am, and always have been, aware of the problems you mention. They are pretty obvious drawbacks to having something mounted where the discreet mount is. They are problems that I have considered and are prepared to accept. Those that are owners of the mount and have contributed to this discussion, don't feel that kinks and visability into the winch are that much of a problem. Regarding my taking offense, don't worry my skin is pretty thick. My understanding of your intent is to have me get into a winch mount that has the most and best utility, and that is not something anyone should take offense to. Cheers Victor | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1381 Registered: 02-2003 |
victor, i think what we are all saying in a way is this is a slippery slope and in 6 months you very well might find yourself wishing you had just spent the money on a proper winch bumper that could fit the winch You want, not the one you settle for. the location of a winch makes a big difference, telling yourself they all get wet is a joke. dont take this too lightly or all your money and investment might leave you with a false sense of security. | ||
| Stephen Hawkins (Madmole) New Member Username: Madmole Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2003 |
Problem for me was insurance. They charge enough as it is. They went loopy when I suggested a metal bumper with a winch sticking out from the front of it I've not had too many problems with tangles etc, but then I'm careful to make sure I'm all lined up and I take it easy and stop and check pretty often. Normally I'm only green laning so they are not difficult pulls. The main use for my winch is for extraciting a 7m RIB out of the sea onto the trailer while keeping Landy as far away from the salt water as possible Also the toerags round here (London) would remove an exposed winch in a week. The discrete winch is pretty unnoticable and alsoe means they need to remove the bumber and wraparound bar just to get at it Also we parallel park here and the discrete winch and the rubber LR Wraparound bumber means I can nudge cars without damaging them So yes, there are a lot of compromises with it but it fits my needs As for the freespooling. Normally if I'm just slipping in mud, I just power it out the 5m to a tree and do a quick haul. Little load and my 8000 has no problems with that I didn't uprate my suspension, and was expecting to have to. Everyone told me it would make a huge difference. Personally I couldn't feel the slightest difference whe I fitted it. Its lower and more inboard than the normal winch locations and I think that helps. I too am considering Plasma and will swap once I see a need http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/images/winch1.jpg is an image I took while installing | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rob et al, Point taken. As far as the potential loss I could experience: $144. That is the cost of the mount, and the only thing that would end up in the garbage if I decide to purchase the bumper later. Who knows, I might even be able to sell it to someone. The winch and fairlead would still be used in any subsequent upgrade. I'm going to give it a shot, and if I find six months from now that I have made a mistake, then I'll be the man and take my lumps and the $144 hit. In the mean time I may also find that it works fine for me. That won't mean you're wrong, just that I knew what I wanted/needed better than you did. Thanks everyone for your advice. cheers Victor | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think your going the smart way, Victor. And if you need to change, sale it and get something else, we've all changed things more than once. I'm going with it for my silver DII, I guess i'll order the mount after the 1st. I lke the stock bumper look. I guess we'll see how it works Later, Lewis | ||
| Jon Button (J_button) New Member Username: J_button Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2003 |
Victor, Do yourself a favor and paint it black before you mount it. It will look much better and almost disappear except for the new capabilities. I too like the stealth approach to upgrades. Fully capable but you couldn't tell by looking at it. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1382 Registered: 02-2003 |
as long as you are informed victor then i think the BBs has done it's job. as for the winch i think you will be getting less than the ideal winch if it's going to fit in that mount but that is a debate that i wont get into today. rob | ||
| Victor Biro (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jon, You're reading my mind. I also found that Warn has a black hawse fairlead (http://www.warn.com/truck/accessories/hawse_fairlead.shtml). They also used to have a black fairlead roller, but I can't seem to find it now. Victor | ||
| Grant Lawson (Grant) Member Username: Grant Post Number: 85 Registered: 01-2003 |
Hey Victor! long time no see!! I would just like to add that a winch is a good choice as an early addition to off road accessories... also, what you have been using for a front recovery point is a tie down point, and will result in serious injury or worse,(unless you have added something to your truck lately), and what is wrong with a safari truck?? LOL.. happy holidays and stay cool!! | ||
| Lewis Jones (Cutter) Senior Member Username: Cutter Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2003 |
the roller fairleads come apart easy to paint. |
