| Author | Message | ||
     Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 204 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a huge issue and I am looking for different thoughts. I have a 8 yr old male Rottweiler that I have all his life. He has always been one of the most friendly and gentle dogs I have ever met. I can honestly say he is the best dog I have had. A couple days ago we came home from a 10 day trip and got the dog from the kennel. That night he and I were kind of playing around like we always do and he bit me. This was no nip. I have 6-7 minor lacerations on my face and my lip required 5 sutures at the ER. Here is the problem: When I got him years ago I always told myself that if he ever bit anyone I was going to put him to sleep. I knew that Rottweilers are large and can be aggressive but I was not going to have a 130 lbs dog that learned he could draw blood and get away with it. That being said, I am now faced with that situation and do not if I could put him down and if it is the right thing to do. My major concern is that we have a 10 month old boy. Is this a freak thing or should I take some sort of action? | ||
| Joe M. (Little_joe) Senior Member Username: Little_joe Post Number: 287 Registered: 11-2002 |
We have a 7-yr old pit bull mix and had the exact same thing happen when we got him out of the kennel after the holiday. He was just way too wound up, from being cooped up. Nipped my nose and lip while we were playing aggressively. This is totally out of character and I accept responsibility for working him up. If you were antagonizing him or encouraging rough play, my feeling is it's an isolated incident due to time away and subsequently releasing that energy. Especially if this is entirely out of character for him. Our dog has never shown any aggression to man or beast and now that we've worked off his pent-up energy, he's back to his old self. I don't think anything at all of our incident this week. FWIW........... joe | ||
| Matthew A. Barnes (Discoveryxd) Senior Member Username: Discoveryxd Post Number: 263 Registered: 08-2003 |
I would keep your son away from him for a while until you can safely say that it was abnormal behavior. I would pay close attention to how he acts, just in case if he has started to become more aggresive. Some dogs can be quite friendly, and then out of nowhere bite you if they feel threatend. I watched a dog bite a man once. The guy was on his knees petting the dog. When he went to get up, he put his face directly over the dogs head. The dog then must have felt threatend, because it lunged up and bit the man in the face. Some dogs don't like having people over the top of them. It makes them feel insecure. I have some energetic dogs myself, and they can get out of hand sometimes. The young male we have sometimes gets too excited and bites at me, but not nearly hard enough for any concern. I think you should keep your son away, and see if he has become more aggresive. If you have to put him to sleep to keep your family safe, then that's what you have to do. Good luck, Matt | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1209 Registered: 02-2002 |
Dogs and babies should NEVER go near each other. Is it worth the risk? Especially an unpredictable Rottweiler. When your son is big enough to fight him off (i.e. age 20!), then ok fine. Until then, can you really guarantee they'll never ever be out of your sight together? Look what he did to you, and now imagine what he can do you your baby son in a second.... | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 471 Registered: 04-2003 |
Sounds like an isolated incident...he must've decided you did something threatening. I'd take the next month and see how he acts, and like Dean said keep him AWAY from the baby... I have a 5 year old Border Collie and have always said I wouldn't tolerate that, but they do get to be a part of the family, you know? Give him a chance and see what happens. Whatever you do, make sure to have a dog for that kid -- dogs are great responsibility teachers and they make kids happier (and you too -- I read an article I can't find anymore about how dogs lower people's stress levels). That's all it's time to drink my way through Bowl Season  Andy | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 621 Registered: 05-2003 |
Matt, Find the book Leader of the pack as fast as you can. It is by Nancy Baer and Steve Duno. ISBN number is 0-06-101019-7. ALL dogs are pack animals (well so are humans if you look close enough). There is always an ALPHA, the leader of the pack. When a dog becomes a member of a family, the dog sees you as a member of the pack. You have got to be the leader, even if it takes FORCE (without breaking a dog's spirit) on your part to establish that or even to reassert your leadership. Stick with me for a second while I tell you how dogs think. When ANY new animals come together, there is a re-shuffling to establish who is alpha, and where each animal falls in the "pecking order". This is normal behavior between dogs and something that humans should (almost never) NEVER interfere with. Have you ever seen 2 dogs begin to get aggressive with each other and then a good intentioned human jumps in to help -- then violence escalates? That is the dumbest thing anyone can do. When that happens, it can get VERY ugly. Most times dogs are just "bluffing" as they assert their dominance. However, when they do resort to agression, it is usually over in a split second (as long as owners stay out of the way). Then all dogs settle down knowing where they belong in the pecking order. Dogs know how to assert themselves, discipline a pack member, and even keep the other members safe with quick outbursts. With dogs, it's just their way of saying "who's boss" and "these are the rules". To totally understand, you'd really have to sit quietly for a long time watching body language, eye movements, the members of "the pack" interracting - watching for every tiny clue. Dogs also test other members of the pack, including humans, to see how far they can get - just like we humans do at times. In my opinion, kennels are an "artificial environment" that mess up dogs heads because they are exposed to other dogs -- but, don't always get the chance to "play it out" deciding who's who in the pecking order and working things out among themselves. Kind of like "all dressed up and nowhere to go" - they've got all those natural instincts swirling inside them with no release until they leave to go home. I think just the smells of the vet/kennel get them going. I have a male and a female, even when we go in for just quick nail trims, my male will not leave my female alone -- smells her nonstop to see if anyone has been in "his territory". She eventually nips at him in a mean tone and he'll leave her alone - all for about 5 minutes and then he's back again. I mean he IS WIRED for a long time - OVER ALERT - doing double, triple duty around our perimeter and keeping it peed on. My dogs can even get a little kooky when I've been with other dogs. I finally figured out that I can short circuit the kookiness if I stop and allow them adequate time to smell my shoes and hand (I also tell them the names of the dogs they are smelling on me - just for my own amusement). I am very very very concerned that your dog bit you. Especially, since your words indicate to me that you have shown yourself to be the LEADER during his lifetime. 8 month old child, there could also be some "jealousy issues". If I were you, I'd get the dog back to the kennel as quickly as possible - just to give yourself some "time". That HAS TO HAVE BEEN a tramautizing event - the shock of it might be diminishing the serious significance of it, so I'd get him gone for a few days - just to let yourself and your family adjust to the event. In my opinion, it is not fair to anyone for him to be there right now. There is just no way that you or your wife could feel "safe" right now espeially with a baby in the house. If it makes you feel any better, it's probably not good for your dog either - he's gotta be stressed too in the environment -- that will NOT contribute to "rational behavior" on his part. Things aren't all black or white right now, and sometimes we humans tend to think in those terms. You don't have to make a decision right away to keep him or to get rid of him. Treat yourself, your wife, and your child (and your dog) with some nurturing luv right now -- give yourselves a bit of space to heal away from each other (both physically and mentally). You'll know what the right thing to do will be when the time comes. I don't mean to sound too harsh. I luv my dogs like crazy and I've yet to meet a dog that I've been afraid of - but, as a mother, it's not worth taking a chance keeping him there while things are "hot". As a fellow parent, GET THAT DOG OUT OF THE HOUSE. I know you luv your dog - but, I also know you luv your family. As the leader of your family, it is your responsiblity to protect them and keep your cave safe (even if it's just for a few days). In addition, your wife needs to see you protecting her and your family right now, even if she does not say it out loud. That's just part of a mans job, ya know? We women have to know that our men will do whatever it takes to keep us safe. Good luck, my heart goes out to you. THANK GOD he bit you instead of your baby. Jamie p.s. In my opinion, a dog can NEVER be allowed "to win" or he will think that HE is the leader - in which case you've got an even bigger problem. Please don't answer this, just think about it, ok? When he hurt you and drew blood, were you (or someone else) able to take him down extremely dominately immediately after he struck? His behavior was obviously not "a bluff", that's pretty scarey. If no one took him down (which would be understandable in that situation), that dog is a (temporary?) threat. | ||
| Alan Bates (Alanb) Senior Member Username: Alanb Post Number: 403 Registered: 07-2002 |
Totally agree with Dean. We had a dog that lunged at our then 2 year old son, I barely caught him in time before the dog could do any serious damage. We contemplated putting him down but found a friend to take the dog, he had no kids. One way or the other in my opinion you have to get rid of the dog. You will never forgive yourself if something did happen. | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 627 Registered: 12-2002 |
I am really sorry Matt but the dog would be gone ASAP if it were me. It will hurt to do it, but like Alan mentioned above you will never forgive yourself if something did happen to your child. Good Luck, Tim | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2002 |
You are all adults. You bought the dog and therefore are respinsible for it life. SO he bit you ? Um , its a Rotty , its got big teeth and most people are scared of them. These are probably some of the reasons that you got him in the first place. Dont make the dog suffer now because you cant uphold your end of the deal. All of the people here yapping about getting rid of the dog kinda make me Ill. I dont know of any dogs that arent a little iffy around kids and I own Goldens which have a stellar rep for it. Even if you had a toy poodle it would be an issue... That being said , I think Jamie's post was pretty good. The dog being in the Kennel has him beating his chest a little.... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1210 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle, with all due respect, if you don't have kids you can't really answer that question in all fairness. There comes a time when you do have to put your family first in front of an animal. And that is all it is, an animal, its not worth the life (or face) of a child. Find a new home for him. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 495 Registered: 11-2002 |
So you are an Adult dean and Incapable of handling the situation with anything other then something going ? Nice problem solving.... Very nice... With all due respect of course...... Perhaps if your problem solving isnt any better then that , you shouldnt have kids ? "Blow me" | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1212 Registered: 02-2002 |
With slightly less respect, yes, I am indeed incapable of handling this situation in any other way. The dog would go, and that's it. "Blow you" | ||
| Alan Bates (Alanb) Senior Member Username: Alanb Post Number: 404 Registered: 07-2002 |
Your outlook on life totally changes when you have a kid of your own. I had my dog way before I was married and had kids, the thought hadn't even crossed my mind. It was hard to get rid of him when he attacked our kid, but we had too. I think Matt is in a very similar situation. It would be irresponsible if Matt knew he was going to have a baby and goes out and gets a Rotty and then has to get rid of it. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2002 |
LOL , I love this attitude , remind me to shoot you Dean if we ever get on the trail together and you get in the way. Would be silly to risk turning the wheel and finding a way around you. You should understand that right ? Dont take on anything you cant see through to the end. Here is a novell Idea! Keep the dog away from the kid? Teach the child the ins and outs of dog ownership once he is old enough ? I actually like the killing thing if we can apply that to all aspects of life... If you are given a puzzle to complete do you throw out the pieces that you arent smart enough to fit in? "Blow me" | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 659 Registered: 04-2001 |
Should have got a golden. The worst puppy will do is jump on you. You can actually stick your fingers in her mouth and pull and she will play tug with them without biting down, growling and everything. Try that with a rotty! Just keep the dog and the kid apart. Ron | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1214 Registered: 02-2002 |
Here's a novel idea also: Stop being stubborn, and get rid it! Ps if you shoot me, I will still be in your way (NJ Rt 70 / Rt 206 circle tomorrow 9am, if you're interested.) | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1417 Registered: 02-2003 |
LOL gonna be a showdown. I have ELO playing in my head | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1216 Registered: 02-2002 |
Its bumper envy Rob, I tell you. He's seen my pictures.... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 498 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah , Ribit!! "Blow me" | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1217 Registered: 02-2002 |
Ribit? WTF does that mean? | ||
| Tyler kinghorn (Flippedrover) New Member Username: Flippedrover Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2003 |
Haha. I'll bring a shovel and gas. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 625 Registered: 05-2003 |
Matt, As soon as I left my computer, I wished I had added something: Whatever you do, I've gotta hand it to you for your courage to begin this thread. I have great respect for you for taking this so seriously that you would post something along the lines of 'I've got a big problem and don't know what to do about it'. Especially to post it here, this has to be way way way way harder than a guy stopping at a gas station for directions!! I had a 150# lab that I practically grew up with. When I left home, we left together to begin our "grown up" life. I never ever thought we would part. We had a close call the day I brought my baby home from the hospital. Seeing how big he was, how tiny and defenseless my child was, and what "could" have happened, I had to get my dog out of the house. I was racked with guilt on a daily basis while he spent 2 weeks at the vets. However, I knew in my heart that he could not be in the same house with my baby. It's amazing how things work out, someone who had been looking for a male lab for companionship for a female lab called on my vet. Mongo went to live on a big farm. I felt total peace about it all and never looked back. Good Luck, Jamie | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mighta thought about living some place with the correct provisions Jaimie and avoided the whole ordeal.... "Blow me" | ||
| Matt Anderson (Disco01) Member Username: Disco01 Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2003 |
"You are all adults"--Really? I sure as hell would not know from the posts above. Shoot him if he is in front of you...you got to be shittin' me. Back on topic, I think you need to get rid of the dog. I love dogs and can't imagine living without one, but you realistically can't keep your child away from your dog. And if you isolate the dog and neglect him, what kind of life is that for him? I think dogs have inherted traits but I also think they are only as mean as they are raised to be. Your breed of dog does have a reputation for being mean, and may have aggressive tendencies. However, I think what happened was your fault. A similiar thing happened to me when my dog was a pup and I knew it was my fault. But, your child will not know what is right or wrong, and if he pinches the dog or.....wait, they don't have tails..........pulls on it's ears then who knows what could happen. I think you can find someone to take the dog, as I dont think I could put a dog to sleep. I think the general concensus, especially from people with children, is that as a father you only have one choice. | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 474 Registered: 04-2003 |
Matt, you're wrong. It sounds as if he provoked a large, strong dog into what the dog considered a minor response. KVT's right. Teach that kid from birth to (1) respect and (2) enjoy dogs and he'll be raising a better person. To get rid of the dog shows one thing: Cowardice. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2002 |
"From the people with children" ? I love that...The posts on this site are always so telling to me of why our world is becoming more and more of a joke every day. No one deals with issues that they own. They simply put them onto someone else or just want to get rid of it instead of dealing with it. Little kids do shit that makes dogs want to bite them , especially dogs that didnt grow up up with them. Animal shelters are filled with dogs all over the US because of this. Dogs die daily and go to shit hole homes because of this. "Out of site out of mind". Jaimie up there is "At peace" with shipping her pooch off , but what about the pooch ? Yeah , I am sure it makes you feel better to think "He is in a much happier place now" (That sound familliar ?) but you dont really speak K-9 do you ? This whole thing with me is not as much about dogs as it is about owning whats yours . Use your head and fix the problem that you think might occur with all the puzzle pieces in play. In some Asian countries they get rid of the kid , that sound right ? "Blow me" | ||
| BW (Bwallace35) Member Username: Bwallace35 Post Number: 84 Registered: 07-2002 |
Matt, When your dog bit you, what did you do IMMEDIATELY? What was your first reaction, expression and subsequent action? | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 631 Registered: 05-2003 |
Andy, Just wondering... Hypothetically, if someone kept a dog that had previously bitten a family member, then harmed one of the children at a later date, could a parent be held responsible? Could such a situation be considered neglect, or endangering a child?? Thanks, Jamie | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 516 Registered: 10-2002 |
I am curious to know the exact circumstances of the bite and this dog's exact track record up until the bite. An 8 year old dog is pretty well set in it's ways and a good bit before being senile or confused. This dog has NEVER shown any agression and then one day it bites the owner? What EXACTLY happened before the bite? I just gotta wonder how this dog up and changes his mind in such an extreme way. Was he regularly kenneled? Was this the first time he spent that much time away? I gotta go with Kyle on this one. If the black and white choice from the "parents" is child or dog not both, then none of these people should EVER have gotten a dog if they thought at any point that they would have children. Apparently, this is something you need to think about before you ever get the dog. I believe that you are committed to the quality of life of the dog. Once you take on that responsibility, it's yours. Dogs are so easily molded. Their personality is their own, but their behavior is the direct result of their environment and upbringing. Dogs respond to consistency. They need it. It gives them guidlines from which they will not stray. I have to believe that there is some source for this behavior. Maybe Matt can define what he would have called "aggressive" behavior in the dogs life to date. How does it respond to new people and new dogs? How did it act when the child came home for the first time? Is it a dog from specific lines that you are familiar with? Is it actually a mutt? Do you know the temperments of his parents? Did you know this when you bought or bred? We can't make blanket statements about the characteristics of a breed without knowing the actually lineage of the dog. A show bred Rotty is never going to do much more than walk around. Just looking for an answer here. Like Kyle, I'd like to see a solution that addresses the dog's behavior and makes a correction rather than eliminate the dog. 8yrs of loyalty and perfect behavior and it's one strike? | ||
| Keith Mitchell (Keith_indy) New Member Username: Keith_indy Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know when we've boarded up our dogs in a kennel, they always come back a little wound up, and tend to go overboard (ie more playfull, and more agressive) with everything when we get them back. The last couple of times we've gotten a dog sitter to take care of them, and they are much more normal. I would talk to your vet about this. You have valid concerns about his behaviour. Not having kids or a Rott, I can't answer the question for you. | ||
| Leo (Leo_hallak) Member Username: Leo_hallak Post Number: 151 Registered: 02-2003 |
I agree with Kyle I dont think the only solution is to get rid of the dog after 8 years of him being a good pet. If you are afraid to keep a 10 month old around a 130lb dog let alone any dog thats common sense. I have played hard with my Shepherd before and have had him bite my face, totally my fault for being eye level with a animal. If he bit your face and then just stopped I think there are is more to this, if he wanted to hurt you and you were on the ground with him I think your wounds would have been worse then they are. My dog is my friend but before that he is my pet, when my voice raises he knows who is in charge. -Leo (and yes I have a daughter who is 6) | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 353 Registered: 09-2002 |
Matt I agree with Rover puppy's first post. They are pack animals and there can only be one leader to the pack. You must always be the dominant figure to the animal, especially one that size. Most of the problem was probably the kennel time. Your dog is used to familiar faces and his territory( your home). Did he seem like he was aggitated or playing? Did it feel like he was out to purposely hurt you or aggressively playing and he caught you at the wrong moment? I would be fearful of my child around a Rot, but then again I have never owned a Rot, and each dog is what you create it for. I personally have 2 goldens and 1 great dane. I never fear my 20month old son being around them. I was leary of my 8 year old golden because he is male and is the dominant one of the dogs, but he has taken it like a champ. My son can do anything to them and all they will do is walk away. I would hope that your reaction was to reprimand the dog immediately. Did the dog know he had done something wrong, like showing guilt that he instantly knew he fucked up? I hate kennels I refuse to send my dog to one for reasons like this. I can imagine some 18 year old punk taking care of my dog on the holidays. I always have someone housesit and take care of my animals. With 3 dogs it ends up being cheaper anyhow and my dogs get to stick to their routine. So no I wouldn't get rid of the dog. You bought the dog knowing that he would live to be in his early teens and I think that getting rid of him would be irresponsible on your part. I would just keep him away from my baby if it were me. That means the dog might sleep outside if he doesn't already. | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 104 Registered: 07-2003 |
Kyle usually has all the right answers - so maybe he can be a poll bearer when your innocent baby is killed by your dumb-ass dog. The parent "owns this issue" and the best way to protect the baby is to lose the dog. Trying to convince everyone here that he shouldn't have gotten the dog in the first place does not in any way contribute to a solution. He has the dog, he has the problem, he has to fix it. If you can't GUARANTEE that the dog and baby are separated, then the dog must go. The fact that you have a Rott with a baby is scary enough. No matter what anyone say's - your life will be over if your baby is attacked. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 502 Registered: 11-2002 |
Killed ? lol , my oh my arent we dramatic. The only thing here in imediate danger of being killed is the dog.. And he really hasnt done anything yet aside from being a dog....... "Blow me" | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 206 Registered: 11-2002 |
All very interesting. A good debate is never a waste of time. Thanks for all the insight. Rover Puppy, I know what you are saying and have understood that of a long time. That is why the dog was well trained from the begining. I never had an issue with who I believed the dog viewed as the Alpha male, until the other night. I tend to agree with the line of thought that the kennel had him on edge. I know he hates them as much as I do. He and I rough-house quite a bit (it is a nightly ritual almost) and I think 10 days in the kennel had him too mixed up. BW, I have to admit that I beat the %^$&#! out of the dog. Aside from a rap on the nose every once in a while I have never hit him before. I tore him up. A lot of it was anger but a good part of it was my attempt to let him know that he I could still get the upper hand even if he bit me. I guess I was re-establishing who the Alpha was. He would not even come near me yesterday. Last night I had to take hime for his walk because my wife is sick. Usually he walks right next to me without even a leash. Last night He walked 20 feet behind me. Thanks for the advise about the kid-dog-interaction. I will admit I really am still learning about the kid(never even held one before I had my own) but even before all of this they where never in the same room without one of us there, let alone in close proximity. | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 105 Registered: 07-2003 |
Again, I'm sure Kyle is correct - killed is probably not possible - and I'm pretty sure that Matt is comfortable with that probability - I mean , viciously bitten in the face is acceptable over being killed. Here's some info from the CDC: There is a dog bite epidemic in the United States and the civilized world. In a 10-year period, the number of dogs in the USA rose by 2% while the number of bites increased by 37%. There are almost 5 million victims in the USA annually -- about 2% of the entire population. 800,000 need medical attention. 1,000 per day need treatment in hospital emergency rooms. Between 15 and 20 die per year. Most of the victims are children, almost always bitten in the face by the family dog or a friend's dog. The dogs most likely to bite The Centers for Disease Control study dog bite incidents, including the types of dogs most likely to bite. The breeds that the CDC considers highest risk are pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. Owners of such dogs should be aware that if their dogs attack a person, the attacks may be scrutinized by law enforcement. The reason is that irresponsible behavior with or toward a dog whose breed is known to bite has caused a rising and unacceptable injury and death toll, which authorities are determined to stem. Children are the most frequent targets Studies of dog bite injuries have reported that: The median age of patients bitten was 15 years, with children, especially boys aged 5 to 9 years, having the highest incidence rate The odds that a bite victim will be a child are 3.2 to 1. (CDC.) Children seen in emergency departments were more likely than older persons to be bitten on the face, neck, and head. 77% of injuries to children under 10 years old are facial. Severe injuries occur almost exclusively in children less than 10 years of age. The majority of dog attacks (61%) happen at home or in a familiar place. The vast majority of biting dogs (77%) belong to the victim's family or a friend. When a child less than 4 years old is the victim, the family dog was the attacker half the time (47%), and the attack almost always happened in the family home (90%). The face is the most frequent target Studies also have shown that: Dog bites result in approximately 44,000 facial injuries in US hospitals each year. This represents between 0.5% and 1.5% of all emergency room visits The face is the most frequent target (77% of all injures). Mail carriers are an exception where 97% involve the lower extremities. The central target area for the face includes the lips, nose, and cheeks. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 857 Registered: 08-2002 |
No dog, even a lab or a golden is safe with a small child. Even if you can put your hand in ists mouth at times. Regardless of the dog and the track record, I would personally never leave the dog/child without direct super vision. I recommend a couple of good dog books, sounds like Jamie's is a good one in addition to obedience training weekly, a muzzle and a crate. | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 192 Registered: 02-2002 |
" The only thing here in imediate danger of being killed is the dog.. And he really hasnt done anything yet aside from being a dog.......". Kind of like all those cats you repeatedly have said you killed just because they were cats, eh? Karen | ||
| Garth Petch (Garth) New Member Username: Garth Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2003 |
I can't believe it...I'm agreeing with Kyle! Matt, Jamie is right...a dog is a pack animal and bows to the leader of the pack. You brought it home to an environment different than it has lived in for a couple of weeks and them engage in behaviour which appears to be similar to two dogs wrestling upon meeting and then get upset that it was a bit aggressive...D'oh! You're worried about the risk from a large strong dog that if it becomes aggressive (and many Rotty's are bought for that reason) could kill your child...I can understand that. But your dog has always been a large strong dog that could kill a child, and that didn't stop you from owning it. You bought a Rotty for whatever reason...that dog has been a faithful companion to you and you may kill it out of hand. If your going to do that...at least pull the trigger or push the plunger yourself Garth | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 193 Registered: 02-2002 |
Matt, you're in tough on this one. For the record, I train animals for a living (horses), and the people that deal with those animals, their owners &/or riders. I've also done a fair amount of dog training, and have trained my parrots and my cats. IMO going a little (or a lot) nuts on your dog after he bit you was absolutely appropriate. It's no different than the quick reaction in the wolf pack scenario. I think in nearly all respects Jaimie is right on, except I think sending the dog back to the kennel, which you suspect might have wound him up in the first place, might not be the best move. I do think you need to separate your dog from your child or anyone else that might not be in a position to deal with him. Then I'd get some GOOD professional dog training advice. Shop carefully for a good trainer. Maybe that trainer could take the dog to their home for an intensive training period. Then, with the help of the trainer, reassess your options. Adopting the dog out might be the answer. Dead is forever and I'd encourage you to take the safest possible steps toward the best solution for everyone involved, including your dog. If in the end euthansia is the best solution you will know you have turned over every stone first. Best luck, but get moving out of this cyber world and get some top flight 3-D help ASAP. Karen | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2002 |
The more I think about it, the more I bet that some jerk was kicking your dog in the face every day at the kennel. I also don't think you need to beat the hell out of your dog either. There are lots of ways to dominate a dog without beating him. You don't want to put yourself in the same boat as the person who might have been abusing him at the kennel. Periodicaly push your dog down and roll him on to his back. hold his chest down and look him in the eyes. Don't say anything. Just hold him down till he submits and stops struggling. Your Rottweiler is large, but any dog that has an inkling you are dominant will submit. Also, when you walk around the house don't ever step over or around your dog if he is lying in your way. Nudge him with your foot until he moves. ALWAYS make you dog move out of your way, never step aside or over even if it seems "courteous". When an Alpha dog walks through a slumbering pack he/she makes every other dog move. Do NOT rough house with your dog. This is littermate behavior and puts you at a sibling level. If there are people that are fine with wrestling with the dog, let them do it, but you should not be the one. It sets a bad standard behavior even without a bite incident. You should be off limits to your dog for any type of aggression/dominance tactics. Don't even let the dog jump up on you. When the dog acts in a way you don't like you can easily correct him without hurting him. Usually just pushing him away or down and giving a "NO!" command should work. hope this helps. I am confident that you can identify the source of this problem and make a positive correction for you and the dog. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1017 Registered: 04-2003 |
LOL, he's had the dog for 8 years and the son for 10 months. Life changes daily and it changes a hell of a lot over a span of 8 years. Sounds like life developed into a family for Matt. So what you're saying, Kyle, is that Matt made (or should have realized he was making) a conscious decision to take the path of dog ownership vs. family 8 years ago? Bullshit. Son or dog, pretty easy decision with only 2 options. What's more important to you? If you live on a farm or have the luxury of space where you can keep the dog chained up and separate from the children for a decade or so, then there's another option. Oh wait, that's mean to the dog, better keep your son chained up. Or maybe you should teach your 10-month old to respect the dog, and teach the dog to respect your son. LOL, call in the Dog Whisperer. If this doesn't work and the dog attacks again, then don't worry about it - people can get along just fine with one arm. Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nursed it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake." | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 860 Registered: 08-2002 |
You are exactly right Jack. Rough housing with your dog, regardless of how fun is not a good idea, neither is rough housing amongst dogs. A pinch collar with a leash kept on around the house should provide adequate correction, if not maybe a shock collar? | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 106 Registered: 07-2003 |
There is no such thing as a totally trainable dog - experts included. I mean, we don't even have an answer for humans that kill without warning! No one on this planet can guarantee the safety of the 10 month old except for the parents. They need to do whatever it takes to GUARANTEE that the dog won't be able to attack the baby. There are certainly enough stories of Rotts getting along fine with children, but there are plenty of stories to the contrary. I am sure that Matt will go out of his way for the safety of his child - as any parent would. I don't usually post my opinion, but I have a baby myself and I choose not to have any dogs while he is still a baby. I'm with Blue on this one for sure... Kenny | ||
| Sean Clawson (Jacintyre) New Member Username: Jacintyre Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2003 |
Put the dog down. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1020 Registered: 04-2003 |
oh no....not the shock collar LOFL | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 861 Registered: 08-2002 |
Give me a break Sean, there are a ton of options, the dog does not need to be put down. If you need to get rid of the dog, look for a Rott. rescue. | ||
| Sean Clawson (Jacintyre) New Member Username: Jacintyre Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2003 |
No breaks, it's a dog. Not a good idea sending a dog known to be aggressive to someone elses family. | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 630 Registered: 12-2002 |
Maybe I am wrong but are the longest threads in the "General" section usually about dogs or beer? Anyway I would find a more suitable home for the dog, not put it down. Not an easy task at this point but I was not very clear about that in my first post. Tim H. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 633 Registered: 05-2003 |
Matt, Way to go on your response to your dog when he bit!! Even if your actions were motivated in part by anger, that kind of had to happen in the best interests of everyone, including your dog. (Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I do NOT in any way shape or form tolerate animal cruelty in any way shape or form. I will intervene in any case of animal cruelty.) From the information available, your dog needed that and your actions may very well be the thing that keeps your dog alive. We have had numerous cases here with dog bites, and the laws don't give much leeway for a second "get out of jail free" card for a dog that bites a second time. In many cases, dogs are put down - which has got to be painful for the families involved. I'm relieved to hear that your dog knows he did wrong and his subsequent behavior is revealing this. I'm sure you are receiving an abundance of input from your medical personell and also veterinarian observation of the situation. For the most part, they're not dummies and will be able to provide you with a fair assessment of their continuing observations. Vets can read dogs pretty well and usually will do all they can to keep all the families together (which includes the dog). I would suggest that the "rough house" play come to an end. No doubt that has been an enjoyable interaction and play time for both you and your dog. I'm sure he missed that while you were away. However, when children are in the household, I would not advise it. Ever. Allowing it even part of the time puts too much responsibility on your dog to decide when it is or is not ok. In my opinion, better and SAFER for your dog to know that it is now ALWAYS INNAPROPRIATE for play. Dogs are able to adapt to changes, just as we all are. I would subsitute that playtime with something else enjoyable and appropriate (perhaps a neighborhood walk with just the two of you or your entire family?) Making rough housing a "no no" will NOT remove or diminish his ingrained protectiveness and fighting instincts that serve to protect you, your wife, and your child. He will still look to you for guidance and reassurance, which is one of the reasons you don't want to break his "spirit" while teaching him what is acceptable and what is not unacceptable. One of the problems that contribute to children being bitten/attacked is that dogs have this THING about who is higher. In packs, the boss dog is always higher than the other, and you will see all the other dogs in a lower ground position. Watch closely and you will see that they only move level with the boss dog when given subtle "permission" by the lead dog. This subtle permission is relayed by ways that are sometimes imperceptable by humans, it can be just by the relaxing of a muscle by the lead dog. (This is not so unusual, humans are the same - just watch human males interacting) Many times, children are eye to eye with dogs, and many times lower in physical position to a dog - which in dog language, tells the dog that he just might be in charge. Dogs nip and bite at those in the pack that they are in charge of (and ultimately responsible for) to teach them safety and keep them from harm. You see this alot when they are in charge of puppies. They will also do this to assert their dominance to keep another dog "in line", which will ultimately keep the puppy safe because the puppy learns to "obey" the boss dog and stay within the safety zone. Who knows how many dog bites to children occur in the home in a dogs honest attempt to train a child? Unless a dog is or has been abused (or taught to fight dirty), they usually don't "attack" family members. Being a member of the pack is a big responsibility and dogs were made "to work", they take their jobs seriously - we may have domesticated dogs, but don't be fooled into thinking a dog is "just" a family pet. Unless someone has totally killed a dogs spirit, there is no such thing. The "middle members" on the heirarchy also discipline and train the puppies. I bring this up, because when children are in the home - you've kind of got to think like a dog to determine where your dog sees himself (or herself) in the heirarchy. As the leader, we teach our dogs where they are in the chain. This does not mean that we have to be in their presence at all times. A dog is capable of learning what he can and can't do around a child - just the same way that a dog learns that he (or she) goes outside to potty, it does not happen in the house. If we are not firm enough to show them without question who is in charge (and the order of the heirarchy chain), they will work their butts off in a truly admirable and loyal attempt to be the one in charge - taking responsibility for the entire family (pack) - which is chaotic, confusing and very stressful (especially for the dog). When they truly know who is in charge, they relax and happily do their job in the chain of command. Leaving them with doubts of "their job" is not fair to them. This does not necessarily mean that one ever needs to call in a dog physcologist, work "x" number of hours per day (or week) designated as "training". Being pack animals, they learn each second of the day during normal operations, just as we also learn everyday while we interact with our family members. Back to the "height" issue, dogs do take this as an indicator of who is in charge. Some people say NEVER allow your dog up on furniture, beds, or to sit higher than you do. I don't totally agree with that, just as long as a dog knows "their place" and continues to display this. I am with my dogs 24/7, so I know when their motives for behavior begin to cross the line and I tighten up their reigns (around the house). In my opinion, it is easiest to teach a dog where they belong with everyday non-verbal actions. There are lots of non-contact ways to train dogs, including luv, attention, the height issue, the "who eats first" order, and many other household behaviors. For the most part, I do not believe in any type of "violence" for training dogs. There are few exceptions to that. Unfortunately, it sounds like you had the misfortune to have come in contact with such a situation. From your morning post, it sounds like you handled it admirably in "dog language" just as a "dog leader" would have handled the same situation. I am also encouraged by hearing that you were at the same eye level when he bit you. Had he risen from a lower position to rise in his bite, I would have been extremely concerned. While he is crouching around in a display of submissive behavior, I pray that he is now more aware than ever that you will NOT tolerate his violence toward ANY member of your family. You've got my empathy and continued best wishes, Jamie p.s. I still hope you can find that book. It is written in a way that we humans can understand dog language. It is also a really neat and highly entertaining read, not boring at all!! | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1420 Registered: 02-2003 |
tim, lets try to keep it on topic here. we wouldn't want this to go into another direction . the long threads also seem to happen around the holidays when people are at work, but not quite working... i see this pretty clear. kid is more important than dog. dog is not going to take car of you when you are old. hopefully kid will. dispose of the dog and revaluate the situation in 10 years. i spoke before about not liking big dogs (and "Big Dogz") so this decicion is so easy for me. rd | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 519 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sean, "known to be aggressive"??? one incident, the facts of which are still be determined, qualifies the dog for the label of agressive? Hey this one time when I was 14, someone called me a name and I pushed them. Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm a psychotic lunatic and should be treated as such for the rest of my life. Blue, I won't speak for Kyle, but my comments about dog vs. child choices, don't infer that if you get a dog you can't have kids, just that if you decided to take on the responsibility of the dog, you need to stick by it, even if circumstances change. It's part of having the dog and it's part of having the kid. You should be able to make adjustments in both of their lives. | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 634 Registered: 05-2003 |
I just read Karen's post, a dog trainer is a good idea, if you can find one who REALLY knows what they are doing, and not just robbing you blind with false hopes. Sounds like Karen has come in contact with good trainers. A good trainer that knows their stuff will train YOU and your dog - not just the dog. Jamie | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1022 Registered: 04-2003 |
I see what you're saying Jack, and I know full well the importance of taking responsibility for your decisions. You decided to buy a dog, you're responsible for it. You decided to have a child, you're responsible for it. If those two responsibilities are in conflict, then you have the responsibility of making another choice. If you decide to make adjustments and keep the dog and the child, and it works, then great - everyone goes home happy. But if you decide to lose the dog in the interest of the kid, then that's fine too. I'll stand by that statement until the world changes such that the dogs get to decide whether or not to keep the humans. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 505 Registered: 11-2002 |
So Karen , a horse could kill a kid , the neighbors dogs could kill the kid. The weather ouside could kill the kid.In fact , YOUR horses could very well kill someone elses kids. Shall I go on with this ? As a parent you seperate your children from things that might cause them harm. Your car could certainly kill the kid but you still own one and you certainly drive the child around in it. How many thing do you own that are luxuries that could indeed kill the kid ? Blue ? You own guns and knives , they could kill the kid and some groups would be harping on the same bullshit as in this thread about that. I wont go on and on like mind numbing Jamie there but I think you get the jist clearly... You like people that go on welfare and keep having kids Blue ? Isnt it the same thing ? Its just another form of pushing responsibility that you should own onto someone else. Now the snake thing , you dick head , I was thinking of that very same tale when I started reading this thread. lol "Blow me" | ||
| Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht) Member Username: Markalbrecht Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2002 |
Matt: The issue may have been beaten to death and odds are you're going to keep the dog. Just an FYI -- if your son is anything like my 4.5 yr. old boy was, at about 12 months when your son starts to walk, the dog will be a principle target of his curiousity. If you have any concerns you will need to be especially viligent. My poor 1/2 lab, 1/2 doberman had her nose picked, eyes poked, and ears pulled more than once during the six months following walking. Problem is that once your son can walk, your dog can't get away as easily and it's hard to tell if an approach will end up in a pet or a pull. I was super vigilent with both the dog and my son on establishing boundaries and it all worked out. Now the dog is one of my son's best buddies (but they still don't get left alone when together). | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 506 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jamie, is a dog trainer going to train that dog not to be unpredictable ? Hell no ! Older dogs are freaked out by children , always have been , always will be. That to me is idiotic. SO you want to send the dog to a trainer and then have SOMEONE ELSE tell you everything is good and you can let your guard down. Yeah right , let me know how THAT works out... LOL "Blow me" | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, good one Sean, that makes sense. You didn't grow up with a perfectly tame childhood dog or own any peaceful dogs, do you? Me, I'm a fairly relaxed guy who's never gotten in a fist fight in my life except when i was in the range described by that CDC report as the most likely age for a boy to be bit (gee, could there be a connection). So you can say I'm known to not be aggresive. But if you penned me up for a week and then let me go and started roughing me up, I'd probably take a damn good swing at your face too! Should I be killed now that I'm "known to be aggresive"? A healthy dog that bites at you or someone, when this isn't their normal behavious, always has a reason. In this case, I think it's plain to see why. Matt reacted to it, maybe a bit strongly judging from the dogs reaction to him, and you can bet that dog learned his lesson and will listen to him. After a bit the dog will be back to walking beside him and listening to him. I think if Matt was standing in the room when this exact event happened to someone else, he might be thinking differently about putting the dog down. We have two dogs, one of which is on that list of "bad" dogs, a husky. Both our dogs, when introduced properly to our child who is now 2, realize where in the family they sit and what the pecking order is. My wife and Mom, who babysits a day a week at our house, wonder why the dogs sometimes don't listen to them right away. the answer is simply that I yell louder and with a deeper voice and when needed back my words up with action, usually just grabbing their collar to get their attention and looking them in the eye while repremending them. At first we were concerned about bringing a new born home to them, especially the husky, but once it was established that the leader of the pack didn't put up with any even slightly bad behaviour towards a particular member of the pack, I've never thought twice about it. The only time we have a problem now is when she messes with them. We've taught her what not to do, but even as well mannered as she can be, she's still just 2 and once in a while needs to test her limits. If she's doing something intentional we correct her not to mess with the dogs. If she accidently stumbles on to one dogs and they know it and nip at her, we correct the dog. Just two days ago the happy go lucky female lab-mix was eating and our daughter approached and was going to take away the food bowl. We've told her many times to never play or mess with the dogs when they are eating. But she was mad at us for not letting her help feed them that day and wanted to do it herself. When she crouched down to pick up the bowl the lab-mix snarled at her and aggresively nipped towards her. It scared me a bit and her a LOT. But after the initial moment it was easy to see where the reaction came from and why and it was another life lesson revisited for my daughter "don't mess with dogs when they eat." If you establish the rules for the dog with a new kid and don't completely fear dog and what it might do, that will help a lot more than always suspecting the dog. He did what he did for a reason. If' he's ever shown signs of aggresion and jealousy towards your 10 month old before, I'd be concerned. But if like you say Matt, he's been a great faithful dog for 8 years, making sure he's not threatened by the baby's place in the fmaily and that he has a place too, will go a long way to calming your fear. The fact that he bit YOU doesn't help you in the short term. And Blue, you can teach a dog and child respect without being a "Dog Whisperer". It's the same way you gain respect from anyone on this planet, more or less. Our dogs respect our daughter and the other way around and I've never invited Robert Redford into my house. They all know what happened when they mess with the other one. But being being kids, they still do it sometimes anyway. One final point for Matt. Since you were rough housing you couldn't have really seen any sign of what was going to happen. If this is normally a great friendly dog, they will warn you when you're getting on their nerves before they do anything really rough. You just need to teach your child later in life what the signs are and to back away at that point. Teaching the dog the same is also best. pwc PS Live your life my way and everything will be allllll right. :-) | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 862 Registered: 08-2002 |
Sean, You really have no idea what to do in this case. AIt is pretty clear from your response have limited experience with dogs, training and behavior. Or possibly you are from some old school thought process that it is the dogs fault at all times. Dogs ARE agressive, period. Any dog can and will attack. Each and every dog can be very dangerous, especially to a young child. This is not limited to dogs of large size. This incident was more likely provoked by the owners actions, not the dog just behaving like an attack dog. You play agressively with a Rotty, guess what... eventually it will play back. Especially if it is an alpha. Jamie, you are right, but if this dog has never been in obedience class, then you do not even need a really good trainer. Get in a class, do it each and every week, the dog will show immediate progress if its history is correct. Definitely get a pinch collar correcting a very large any other way is not very productive. My Chessy, will look up at you with a "do you need something?" kind of look if you go yanking on a standard choke collar on her. She's nothing compared to a 130 lb Rotty. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1023 Registered: 04-2003 |
Sure Kyle, I've got all sorts of shit than can injure/kill children. Guns, knives, forks, ball peen hammers, sharp table corners, mouthwash, and shoe strings. The difference is that none of these items decide on their own to inflict harm. LOL, did anything just click there in that thick skull, or are the gears still jumpin? P.S. I don't see any connection with this thread to welfare junkies pumpin out babies, but my personal opinion on them is to just JB Weld their reproductive organs shut (men & women). | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 635 Registered: 05-2003 |
Kyle, I TOTALLY AGREE with you 100% that a trainer is not going to train a dog to be predictable. Personally, I would not feel at all comfortable with someone else training my dogs. I could never predict the behavior of dogs that have been trained by someone else. I also totally agree with you on your second point. I don't knonw how anyone one could (or should?) be comfy enough to let their guard down around a dog with unpredictable behavior. I have seen way too many "owners" trying to shirk off their responsiblity by writing a check to a supposed professional to do a job that was their responsiblity in the first place. I felt like Karen's post looked at the possiblility of hiring a trainer in a responsible manner. I wish everything in life was free, but sometimes in life we do have to spend money to on educating ourselves. Jamie | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 507 Registered: 11-2002 |
Decide on thier own ? NO , its something that you choose to own that can indeed do harm to the child. "On thier own" or not the outcome is the same.. How to avoid that is the same as well. You make your enviroment safe for your child without getting rid of all these things that cant kill them. The comparison to the welfare system is exactly the same , just a different topic. Thousands of people buy "pets" that only end up being dumped off on someone else or shelters because they simply cannot handle the long term responsibility that goes along with ownership. In essense they want someone else to clean up thier mess.. "Blow me" | ||
| charles pastrano (Charles) Senior Member Username: Charles Post Number: 369 Registered: 08-2002 |
I think the ass whipping the dog received is good enough. I guarantee that is what I would have done. Unless the wife says get rid of the dog let things be. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kyle, Both Jamie and Karen we're talking about training with the dog and owner. They're not asking someone else to clean up a mess, they're stating since Matt came her asking for some advice and help, both he and the dog should get a local professional to assist not completely take over (although reading back, Karen seems to have mentioned it as a possibility at least initially which can be helpful with *really* messed up dogs). You missed the point. Feel free to attack me though, you're on a roll. pwc | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1025 Registered: 04-2003 |
nope, no clicks just keep Fido high on a shelf, in a child-proof container, or in a locked cabinet and all is well I agree with the "dumping off" problem. That's why I'd put the dog down instead of dumping at a shelter if I decided that either dog or kiddo had to go. Can you believe that there are now unwanted child drop boxes in this country??? With absolutely no legal repercussions if you just decide to open the chute and slide junior in like a rented movie return. Unfuckinbelievable. | ||
| Sean Clawson (Jacintyre) New Member Username: Jacintyre Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2003 |
Jack and Peter - comparing human to human interaction with canine to human is just plain silly. I have never been in a fist fight either. Brian - I have been in a similar situation and you already know how it was handled. No, I did not enjoy it, I was very fond of the dog. I grew up with dogs in the house all my life. My wife and I rescued two malamutes from a shelter in Minnesota because the owner could not take care of them. In preparation for someday having a family and to judge if I would be able to handle the animals before we took them I gave them both a meated bone. While they were eating I took it away, to see the reaction I would get. One had no problem, freely giving up the food, which I then returned. The brother, as I approached started growling and sneering as I reached for the food. A test. I grabbed the dog flipped him(not easy with a 160lb dog) and growled back until he looked away and dropped the food. I let the dog up and gave him back the bone. I took the bone again without any fuss to make sure we understood each other and then gave it back. He ended up being one of the best dogs I ever had. The only point I make is I have been around dogs and any dog that bites its owner in a manner serious enough to require stiches is therefore known to be aggressive and well beyond my tolerance. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 508 Registered: 11-2002 |
Exactly Blue , its called having a fucking yard with a dog in it..Why is it everytime seperating the dog and the kid comes up there seems to be a "Chained up dog" pictured ? There are fences and things like that. Atleast here on the East coast.... "Blow me" | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 107 Registered: 07-2003 |
Kyle is trying to say that Matt assumed the responsibility of the dog and the baby. OK - now Matt needs to take responsibility and protect the baby from a possible dog bite or worse. As Blue said very clearly - a dog gets to DECIDE to bite the child - it is an ANIMAL with a brain. Guns, knives, cars etc. do not have that decision making power - you see Kyle - how clear the difference is. Geez, if you want to shed your hard core political agenda on everyone, then start your own thread and argue with folks who care. Matt had a legitimate concern afgter this biting incident, he didn't come here to be reprimanded by you. Kenny | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sean, then you can understand how if you ever broke the rules you had already set with you being the leader, thing scould change? if you went up and played with the dog and be chance started showing submissive behaviour, even unintentionally, how the dog might interpret that? You obviously took the time to establish order with your dogs. If a dog came up out of the blue and bit you that's one thing. But in a sense, Matt was partially asking for it or leaving enough doubt in the dogs mind that he thought he'd push the limits and see if maybe it was his time to be the boss. After all, in every pack the alpha males dies at some point and a someone else has to move to the front, and they usually don't just draw straws. Man, I miss Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom sometimes. pwc | ||
| John Kruger (Johnnyk) Senior Member Username: Johnnyk Post Number: 271 Registered: 02-2002 |
Keep the kid, keep the dog, kill this thread. John | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 736 Registered: 03-2003 |
http://www.teampb.com/galleries/badgerland/P8110221.jpg | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 509 Registered: 11-2002 |
"As Blue said very clearly - a dog gets to DECIDE to bite the child - it is an ANIMAL with a brain. Guns, knives, cars etc. do not have that decision making power - you see Kyle - how clear the difference is." No you fucking idiot there is no difference unless you remove yourself from the equation. In both cases the fault is YOURS if you allow anything to happen.. As far as starting "My own" thread , dumb ass. They are all mine..... "Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 510 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kruger ? PLease man , you have absolutely no credibility here anymore. Isnt there someone somewhere that wants an over priced broke down yellow truck that you need to tend to ? "Blow me" | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 411 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow- After reading this post, I'll put my two cents in. I've had 3 Doberman's over the years and I agree with Jamie's first post above. When I had my first Dobie, my wife could not control it and I did not enjoy walking him either. He was out of control and rambunctious on a walk but he was also affectionate and loved to play. I had to make a decision to invest some time and money... I spent a couple/three months taking my dog (Guderian) to a trainer that had retired from training dogs for the Marines and Air Force. He trained me how to train my dog. I found that I had to "dominate" the dog. This particular trainer did not believe in some of the "soft" training methods I have heard others use. I found that other breeds and dogs did fine with a mild yank on their choke chain to bring them in to line. With Guderian, my trainer taught me to use a spiked choke chain (otherwise he didn't even notice it) and in some instances I was taught to use a short rubber hose and rap him on the nose to get his attention. My trainer taught me that for most dogs such treatment would break their spirit but for a spirited dog it only "got their attention". You know what, it worked great and he was a wonderful dog. He still loved to play, but he definitely listened when I gave a command. I believe he enjoyed the discipline of following commands as much as chasing a ball. I also invested in a dog run with chain link fence. When my kids were little he could hurt them unintentionally just by running over them chasing a ball or playing. If you have a large dog (only kind I like) I believe it's worth the investment of time and money to get to know your dog and let him know what the limits are and to train yourself on how to handle him. If you don't have the time or money then don't get the dog... | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2002 |
Oh, I would never leave my dog at a kennel-too many bad influences that you have to "train" back out. I always paid a friend or neighbor that knows my dogs to feed when I'm gone. My 2 cents- | ||
| John Kruger (Johnnyk) Senior Member Username: Johnnyk Post Number: 272 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle, I am terribly sorry you feel my credibility is not up to snuff. I will run away with my tail between my legs. You are obviously the alpha in this group. Matt, I think there is plenty of great information in this post, it is now for you to decide what steps you will take next. As for the XD, watch for it. You will soon see it, and others everywhere..... John | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 108 Registered: 07-2003 |
Yes Kyle - I am a fucking idiot and a dumbass...thanks for that gentle reminder. Now what were you saying about credibility? Do you post to help or to hurt? Nevermind, I think we all know... | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 688 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ooooooh, careful there Kenny, have you checked the contact page lately?  - Axel | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL- "Biting the hand that feeds you" has a new meaning... | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 210 Registered: 11-2002 |
I know the debate will rage but for what it is worth the dog (Rex) is not going be killed. If it had been someone other than myself I probably wouldn't have a choice. I understand the situation he was in and think I was a bit at fault as well. There are a lot of strong opinions. I would be curious to see the same debate in 5-10 years when some of the non-dog owners end up buying a puppy for the kids and the dog owners start their own family....until let the opinions fly!!!! | ||
| Joe M. (Little_joe) Senior Member Username: Little_joe Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2002 |
I hope all of the "put him down" folks feel the same about their spoiled, irresponsible children. If your child misbehaves, put him down - can't be trained, can't learn, parents have no control and have nothing to offer and the kid will escalate behavior to drugs, ricemobiles, talking like a rapper, and eventually murder. :yawn: joe | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 194 Registered: 02-2002 |
Interestingly, I've never heard of a domestic cat killing a kid....... Karen | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 521 Registered: 10-2002 |
what about Toonces? | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 512 Registered: 11-2002 |
Then you havnt heard much , its much more common that a cat is an issue with a new born.. "Blow me" | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 356 Registered: 09-2002 |
Good decision Matt. Is everyone here, but Blue a little afraid to speak their mind to the moderators? Damn I love this site and what it does for the Rover community, but sometimes I wish we could pay or something so that we could say what ever we wanted. It feels like high school with the cool teacher. They will joke with you and provoke you, but if you say something back they kick you out of class. But I sure loved all 4 dweb videos I just bought in December. (just doing my part) | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kyle, Do you have any stats on that? Or is that just your feeling cus you don't like cats? Did a cat try to steal your breath when you were a kid? :-) I don't think it's more of an issue with cats, I think it's the same thing with "bad" dogs. It's the owners who leave Toonces unsupervised. Just the same as dogs biting people; rarely happens when they are undercontrol from the master. Good to hear Matt. Good luck. pwc | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 357 Registered: 09-2002 |
oh yeah and Matt what kind of Doc are you? | ||
| Kenny Bissett (Jetson) Member Username: Jetson Post Number: 109 Registered: 07-2003 |
Axel - I just got it - Kyle is an owner/moderator - which means I could be banned. I didn't realize what I was doing - I have seen you kick people out before, but I honestly forgot about Kyle. This is the very reason I usually keep my mouth shut on debatable topics - because I'm afraid of being kicked off. So let's see...how should I respond now that I'm aware? I got it! Who gives a shit...even though I love the site. Kenny | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 606 Registered: 02-2003 |
long live the Discoweb | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 195 Registered: 02-2002 |
So, educate me, Kyle. Show me evidence of a domestic cat who has killed a human child. Were those the ones you were so proud of dropping off bridges? Karen | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 607 Registered: 02-2003 |
Sigfried and Roy (however its spelt) well almost | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 196 Registered: 02-2002 |
Naw, you know better. Only Siegfried and Roy would make such an error in judgment. Those "cats" don't qualify vis-a-vis my question. Hope you're enjoying a nice holiday break from school, Phillip. Karen | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Senior Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2002 |
Matt, Sorry that your dog bit you. The day I was around him, he seemed to be very tame and gentle even for a Rottweiler. He was under control and didn't pose any threat to anyone or anything. Of course, the laying in the middle of the trail wasn't too good though. Funny but not good. Your description of him being a big baby seemed to fit his personality. FWIW one of my neighbors has a Rottweiler that is bigger than me and it is a fairly gentle creature. The dog has proven itself to be a good animal around people. In terms of domestic cats, for the most part, a single hand can grasp the animal and thrust it away from you. Most house cats are anywhere from 8~15 lbs which is fairly easy to handle. Of course, their claws can and will do some damage. Sometimes just a scratch that breaks the skin which isn't too much. Other times the claw could stray so far as to injure an eye. I do not know about cats and small children, so I won't go there. One thing many people don't think about is that there are a few breeds of house cats that have genes coming from bigger wild cats. These house cats have similar behaviours when you compare them to larger cats in the wild. Of course, the behaviour is modified since the animal is living in a non-wild enviroment. With the above observations in mind, think about that movie of the guys shooting at the Lion. It is interesting when you look at your cat and see a lot of similarities to that lion, of course, not the entirely the same. There are similarities in the body language of both animals as well as reactions. Lastly, many cats (even big cats) seem to be individuals. They don't hang around eachother all of the time. There is a lot of "Alpha" challenging and such as Jamie explained but it doesn't seem to be as much as in dogs. From what I've seen, many dogs hang around their owners a lot while house cats often go off and do their own thing only to interact with their owner for a short time. Max T. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 689 Registered: 02-2003 |
Any way you want pretty much, as long as you don't try to play moderator and tell him to get lost.... (you can't win that one...) - Axel | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1027 Registered: 05-2002 |
This thread is funny. First off, we have people who have dogs and no kids telling people with dogs and kids how they should run thier household. Lets back up a bit. Matt said in his first post: "Here is the problem: When I got him years ago I always told myself that if he ever bit anyone I was going to put him to sleep." In the famous word of Emeril "BAM!". That was the deal. He made a commitment to the dog at that moment and kept that deal for eight years. In the interim he has a kid and then the dog bites him. Well, if it were me the dog would have a few slugs in his head before I even went to the ER. I would dig the hole to shove his dead ass into when I got back. I am sure there are some of you cringing at the thought of this, but that is just the way it is. Eight years ago my wife and I got married under the pretense that we would not have kids. We now have three truly wonderful kids. We also have two cats. If one of my cats attacked one of my kids he would meet the same fate as the dog. When you have kids it is a whole different game. Like Blue said, a lot changes in eight years. Pet owners like to personify thier pets. Expecially dog owners. I think these people need to spend some time on a working ranch with a variety of animals. Any time a less valuable animal injures a more valuable animal or human they are put down. The don't build them special pens or try to teach respect. They don't do counseling or send them to trainers and work things out because they are a part of the family. They sell them or kill them. We as humans have a social and moral responsibility to value human life over any other form of life. Especially our own offspring. You may love your dog, but your dog is not your kid. I would look at it like this: If I thought there was even a 1 in 100 chance of the dog ever attacking my child after he attacked me, he would be gone. -Curtis | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 864 Registered: 08-2002 |
Curtis, you are absolutely wrong. Some working ranches may work this way, but out here in colorado it is absolutely not true. First you say "anytime" then you say they are sold. It is clear even to you that they are not put down "anytime". But a ranch deals primarily with some form of stock. These stock animals are not pets. Even the ranchers treat their pets MUCH differently. And yes many spend a great deal of time working out the kinks with their pets. This dog was just acting like a dog, that is all. Dogs behave like this, they do it to each other all of the time, this time it just happened to the owner and it could happen to a child if the dog is left with the child unsupervised. There really is no need to put this animal down if it has been such a good pet. Just call the Rotty rescue, not the pound or the taxidermist. Thye might be able to find a good home for it. http://www.ncrottierescue.net/ I still doubt that this dog was "attacking", but we do not have a video of the event to look at. It bit during play. This happens all of the time in dog packs. One time my pointer just got in the way of my Chessie's mouth and got a few stitches. No bite at all just collision with big teeth. | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 214 Registered: 11-2002 |
Aaron, I'm a medic in the Army | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1422 Registered: 02-2003 |
i mostly agree with curtis, though i cant commnet on the ranch stuff as i have no experience. lil' joe up there seemed to suggest that dogs "Deserve" the same treatment as humans. This simply does not compute. Jack asks what about Toonces? You have not lost everyone jack. http://www.wrona.com/TOONCE0.jpg | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1028 Registered: 05-2002 |
"Curtis, you are absolutely wrong. Some working ranches may work this way, but out here in colorado it is absolutely not true." I agree with most of what you are saying Brian, but this statement is pure unadulturated bullshit. My wifes family ran a vary large cattle & horse operation out of just outside Vail/Eagle, CO for years. They now run a horse training ranch that is quite famous (John Lyons)in Parachute, CO. We talked about this before breakfast and there are more than a few dogs with holes in thier heads for attacking other animals on the ranch. These were pets. They were loved by their owners, but on a ranch that shit is just not put up with from any animal on the ranch. Ranchers get to see way more of the cycle of life than most and death of an animal is not that big of a deal. Sure - if you can find a home for the Rotty, that is another option. However, this plays into the welfare mentality that Kyle was speaking of and I did not want to go there -C | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) New Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2004 |
Matt(Doc175) - You and you're family will be fine keeping the dog. The dog was locked up in a cage no bigger then he was and left there for 10 days probably only getting a 10 minute walk out of his cage each day. Maybe twice if it's a good vet. You came home and rough housed with an already excited dog and he got over excited and instead of a ussual nuzzle or nip he bit you. I'm sure that if you don't do some thing like that again then either will he. My dog (75lb male pitt bull) gets the same way after stays at the vet, some time more so since he was a pound puppy and he probably thinks that we took him back to the pound. I'm sure that since you have a 10 month old you have baby proofed your house correct? Well, part of baby proofing your house is getting your dog accustomed to your child who is new to the family. Another part is keeping the two away from each other when there is no one around to watch them. You shouldn't be leaving a 10 month old alone unwatched running loose around your house anyways and I'm sure you don't. Just means that you might have to go and get another baby gate to keep the kid in a safe area while the dog gets kept in his safe area. One word of advice though is DO NOT let your child around any of the dogs toys, food bowl, or treats. You will then have some serious issues. Keep that stuff out of the kids play room. Once your child gets old enough to actually start understanding things teach him how to act around the dog and soon you will have one big happy family. Karen, cats do kill babies. They jump up into the crib and they lay down on the baby causing the baby not to be able to breath. Newborns are most in danger of this because they can't push the cat away. Also, I don't know if you have ever tried to move a cat that has claws off of it's favorite seat before but, the first thing that my cats do is dig in their claws so that they become harder to move. Our baby doctor asked us if we have cats and warned us to keep them out of her nursery room so it does happen enough. Some one posted some statistics a while back about little kids getting killed or attacked by dogs and I'm sure that they are right. I'm also sure that half of those kids came from a family that didn't have any pets and teased their neighbors dog till it bit them. My dad had this problem where these little 6 grade rug rats would walk by his fence and bark at the dog, throw things at the dog, yell, and make other noises at the dog.. My dad fixed the issue by putting up a taller fence along that part of the yard since the parents of the kids didn't want to disiplin their kids. I know that some people do get attacked by dogs for no reason and I'm not saying that they don't. In those cases it's the owner of the dog not providing the correct inclosures for their pets. Nothing like a nice sturdy fence to keep every one happy the dog, you, and the little brat down the street. When you have a pet you have to work with it same as when you have kids. It's alot of work but, that is part of the deal. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 866 Registered: 08-2002 |
It is absolutely not bullshit Curtis. What I am saying is that your categorically saying "ANYTIME a less valuable animal injures a more valuable animal or human they are put down." is not a true statement. It is not "anytime" nor do all ranchers/farmers deal with issues this way. Most ranchers that I have met will deal with these situations in other ways before putting an animal down. Especially if it is a pet or is still a useful animal. You cannot categorize every situation with "anytime", it just is not true. Each situation is different and many ranchers use putting down as a last resort. I spend a great deal of time with Buffalo ranchers as well as elk and cattle ranchers, in fact I own 35 acres that has an active cattle lease and have talked to the ranch hands and owners quite a bit. They end up on my property quite a bit and they regret and avoid any animals death. Now if you wish to say that this is the way that YOUR family operates their ranch so be it, but it is not the way that all ranchers deal with it ANYTIME. Anyhow, its semantics at this point. I hear what you are saying, just do not agree that all ranchers have this philosphy, nor would I have any hard and fast rule when dealing with any animals life. Especially one that I have time/money/freindship invested in. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1028 Registered: 04-2003 |
LOL, I'm sure that at some point in the history of ranching a bad doggy was not put down. You are therefore absolutely wrong Curtis. What does absolute mean? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1029 Registered: 05-2002 |
LOL. Brian - If you are going to get nitpicky about my "anytime" statement, then I will get picky with your statement: "Some working ranches may work this way, but out here in colorado it is absolutely not true." Your statement is false. Ranches in Colorado work just like ranches anywhere. As an example, at my wifes families ranches they had problems with a few dogs who killed chickens. They learned that once a dog got its first taste of chicken blood they would keep killing them. They then learned that thay had to kill the dog on the first chicken kill. Now - the dog could be argued to be more valuable than a chicken. However, when your ranch is between Vail and Steamboat Springs and it is the middle of winter, what do you rely on for food? You see where I am going with this? Anyways, I just thought your statement was funny since most of my experience in this area comes from CO. -C | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 522 Registered: 10-2002 |
Now, I know this is going to turn into a big contest about who's spent more time on ranches and who's a bigger authority, but I'm going to jump in anyways. Like Brian, I don't think there's any way to describe just the way "they do it" on ranches. They're all different and they all have their own ideas. A statement like that harkens back to some mythological era of the American west when men were men and there was right and wrong. Only one "time tested" way to do everything. Now I've really enjoyed my time on the ranch I regularly visit and I like the people but I sure as HELL would not hold up Ranching as any sort of utopian model of responsibility and efficiency. The fact of the matter is, as much as I romanticize ranching and my experiences with it, on the whole it is a pork barrel old boys industry where people act ignorantly and irresponsibly all the time. Just look at the problems caused by overgrazing and Arizona moonscaping. A lot of ranchers make some pretty bad property and livestock managment decisions and that's why lots of ranches go under. My point is, I may like ranchers and respect what they do, but I know for sure, they haven't got it all figured out. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1029 Registered: 04-2003 |
Everything I know about ranches I learned from watching City Slickers I. -Blue once again seeking to contribute nothing to the topic | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 633 Registered: 12-2002 |
Actually Blue during the filming of City Slickers I someone was bitten by a dog. No I do not know what they did to the dog. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1031 Registered: 04-2003 |
Kyle probably adopted it | ||
| Mahn England (One_iota) New Member Username: One_iota Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2003 |
Is this debate about responsible parenting or animal ownership? Should they put the croc down or the croc hunter? http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200401/r14049_34184.asx | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 197 Registered: 02-2002 |
Hi Eric! I was wondering about you yesterday, matter of fact! I hope fatherhood is all you'd hoped and that your family is doing well. Interesting what your Pediatrician said. I've never heard of that happening, but I suppose it could. For that matter though, parents, relatives and babysitters have inadvertantly done the same thing when sleeping with babies in the same bed. Horrifying, tragic accidents, but accidents nonetheless. I googled 'til my googler was sore and couldn't pull up a thing about domestic cats killing babies in the way your doctor suggested (or in any other way, for that matter), but if it is true, and not yet another old wive's tale being being repeated, then more's the reason to fully supervise ones children. Still, if true, this would in my mind fall more into the realm of accidental death, more like an animal reacting on instinct (a "good" dog responding to ear-pulling, for instance), rather than a flat-out attack by a "bad" dog. Dead still means dead forever, so none of it is a Good Thing, Martha. Karen P.S. I was talking with one of my students about this cat issue this morning. She is an OB nurse, births babies and teaches birthing classes. Her daughter, who still lives at home, just had a baby a month ago. Cathie said as soon as that baby makes a sound all the pets scatter like bugs. They don't want anything to do with the infant. FWIW. | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 198 Registered: 02-2002 |
I knew the Steve Irwin thing would come up. IMO, that was pure dipshit in action. His wife, Terri, said she sanctioned the event. I just can't see any upside in this or any other universe. WTF were they thinking? Karen | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) New Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2004 |
Karen, I have actually heard of it before. Not really that it happened but, more that it could. Our doctor however, has heard of it happening through other doctors. I have already seen how it could happen. We had our little one in bed with us taking a nap while we were watching TV and one of our cats that likes to sleep with the misses decided that it was going to sleep on top of our daughter. The cat would lay down on her, we would throw the cat off the bed, and the cat would come back and try it again. You are also correct that it is not good to sleep with your baby in the same bed. They do however, make a small walled crib of sorts ( like a padded open box ) that is made to put on your bed so that your baby can sleep with you in safety. You should always supervise your children whether you have pets or not. Accidents can and will happen but, are 90 times more likely to happen if your not around to stop them. Choking, falling, having some thing fall on them, there are all sorts of things that can happen. Yes Karen, I enjoy being a Dad. I enjoy it so much that I do it full time. I hope that you and your family are doing well also. I hope that you have a great year. As for the Steve Irwin thing.. I put that in the same class as Freak Man MJ holding his baby out a 3rd floor window. Not too bright and they are damn lucky that nothing happend. | ||
| Mahn England (One_iota) New Member Username: One_iota Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2003 |
Karen, Couldn't agree more.. nothing can justify or excuse their actions. Both of them are old enough and ugly enough to know better. They are guilty on all counts. And as for his nomination for Australian of the Year!!! Crikey! Mahn | ||
| Christopher Boese (Christopher) Senior Member Username: Christopher Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt, it does seem as if this is a very isolated incident with your dog, and it occurred after your dog spent some confusing days outside of his usual pack. But do you want to roll the dice and make a bet that your kid can be kept safe? I do doubt that your dog could or would kill, but permanent damage can be done, and in a moment. I've had my own experience. I was bitten without provocation, by a leashed dog I didn't know, and lost much of the use of a finger. I used to have a soft heart for dogs, any dog. But if this happens again with another animal, there will not have to be any decision made about rehabilitation. The only decision to be made will be when the dog will die - on the spot or soon after the legally-required quarantine period is up. | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) New Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2004 |
I'm currios Christopher, did you reach down to pet the dog or did the owner fail to keep control of the dog and away from you? Just wondering since that type of thing usually happens one of those two ways. The dog can be kept safely away from the child and I'm not talking about being chained up in the yard either. There are many ways of doing it and it is just a matter of doing it. Baby gate off the living room, they make baby pens for play rooms, keep an eye on your kid and only allow interaction with the dog while you are right there with both of them and I don't mean sitting over on the couch while the kid and the dog are on the other side of the room. Just be responsible. You know the danger now act accordingly. That goes for anyone that has pets cause even the most loving dog can attack and whether or not they show signs of it or not it is still some thing that can happen. Take your loving little pooch and give it some of it's favorite snacks and then leave him alone with your neighbor from two houses up. Have your neighbor try to take away his snacks while eating them and you are not around and see what happens. | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) Senior Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 522 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ok Matt; so your Rotty was pissed at you for leaving him in the kennel, lacked a ton of exercise and you played with him and got bit... You also have a 10 mth old.. Ever tried a pet sitting service that takes a dog out for a walk twice a day and allows you to keep him at home when you are away? Ours are far calmer dogs for staying at home. What to do with him? Rottys are naturally protective, but carnivores like all dogs....remember how mad you felt when he bit you...ever read those stories about kids run over by their parents.....put two and two together and sorry mate, I think you need to find him a good home...rotty rescue exists somewhere in your area I've only got one dog now, we had to put our other down, but I swear we'd give a dog away if there was any threat to our kids. Take your scar and put it on a teenage kid....attractive never. | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 610 Registered: 02-2003 |
I saw the clip of Steve on TV this PM, he is def outta his mind. the break has been good. | ||
| Ken Doss (1disturbedtruck) New Member Username: 1disturbedtruck Post Number: 14 Registered: 06-2003 |
Matt, Most metro areas have kennel clubs or a similar organization. They frequently run non-for profit training classes run by volunteers dedicated on helping people and their pets. Contact them and they can set you up with a trainer or someone who specializes in this type of situation. They can help you with all of your options far better than your well meaning disco web friends. Best of luck Ken | ||
| DW (Dcw) New Member Username: Dcw Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2004 |
This Steve thing is such a joke. Aren�t those agencies supposed to be protecting the children of crack mothers and such? No glamour in that though so let�s go after Steve. And as for this Steve=MJ thing, well that�s a joke, the guy knows what he�s doing so let him be. Don�t some of you here take your kids 4wheeling; doesn�t that put them in danger? shame on you. But to me here�s the thing, it�s his kid and he�s the one who will suffer if the worst happens. Weather I disagree or not really doesn�t matter, or shouldn�t. In the whole scheme of things what he did isn�t that bad and is none of my business. | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2002 |
This wil be the 119th post. This discussion just surpassed the "What's Your Favorite Dog"-----Is that good or bad? | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1031 Registered: 05-2002 |
I dunno Matt. Is the Rotty gone yet? | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2002 |
No, the dog is going to stay. Like I said before he still will not even come around me after all of this. I do not know if it is because he knows he F-ed up or the beating he got. I also know I played a part in it. We will see how things pan out | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kenny , just shutup , dont now pretend that the situation is any other then what it actually is. You wanted to tell me where to go and what to do. Sorry , that aint gonna go over well. And dont start beating the ,"If I disagree I am going to get banned" drum. If I banned everyone that disagreed with me at some point there wouldnt be anyone left here but Me , Ho and Ax... Karen , for starters , if you are going to run your mouth , get your shit straight first and then run it. You know of any bridges in Indian Head ? Perhaps you should have payed more attention to that the first time around. It was my father who did that when he was a kid growing up in DC. Dry ice and kittyies... There is assorted problems with cats and kids. There is also a Disease transfered because the cats shit in the house and walk all around in it , then they go walking all over junior , his bed. Bacteria at its best... Curtis , you like to come off as a smart guy most of the time but you make the DUMB GUY mistake of assuming too much. You are simply assuming who has children in this thread and who doesnt, then you are flapping on and on about it and ranching and 100 other irrelivant things...I grew up around dogs since infancy , I was biten by dogs , ours and other peoples. I have Ryan here who I am fairly certain (Judging by his size and age) is considered a child , and I frequently have my two nieces here that are either midgets or children. (Since dwarfism doesnt run in my family I am guessing they are kids) I also have two dogs. Had I not taught the kids about the dogs and the dogs about the kids I could probably go into some stories about how they have been bit , but I dont have those stories. Even with that I know when to seperate the dogs and the kids and no one gets asaulted (The dogs or the kids). Now I hear all of these third party stories (THe ones you like to tell Curtis) but I am wondering have you had to kill a dog ? A cat ? I have killed plenty of both because it needed to be done. There isnt some dramatic killer dog story behind any of it. It was simply the way life is growing up around hunting , trapping , and farms. So just shut the hell up about what other people do and stick to you. Hows that ? "Blow me" | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 871 Registered: 08-2002 |
Good Matt. I would make the dog come around me by doing some basic tricks or starting to teach come, heal, down and stay. Reward with treats when he does something good. Regain yourself as the pack dog that he does not have a choice to obey. As I said before get a pinch collar and a 6 ft lead for around the house, don't leave unsupervised with the child. | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1032 Registered: 05-2002 |
Kyle, "Curtis , you like to come off as a smart guy most of the time but you make the DUMB GUY mistake of assuming too much. You are simply assuming who has children in this thread and who doesnt...(blah blah)" Who said I meant you? Did I name names? Some of the people who have commented have said they did not have kids either here or in other threads. Whether I thought you were on this list of not is irrelevant. I simply made an observation and it is one I stand by. For instance, take this guy Joe Little. He may or may not have kids but ya gotta gove this statement: "I hope all of the "put him down" folks feel the same about their spoiled, irresponsible children. If your child misbehaves, put him down - can't be trained, can't learn, parents have no control and have nothing to offer and the kid will escalate behavior to drugs, ricemobiles, talking like a rapper, and eventually murder." Gimme a break. This is the type of attitude that elevates a dog to human standards. I sure as hell hope this is not something you are defending because it was more in line with what I was arguing against. But you say: "Now I hear all of these third party stories...(bullshit removed)...just shut the hell up about what other people do and stick to you. Hows that?" That is fine and dandy Kyle. How about this: I was attacked by an Alaskan Husky when I was about 5 or so. The Animal Control dept. came and took the animal, lopped off its head, and sent it to Austin to be checked for rabies. I dunno if they do it that way now but this was SOP in the early 70's. I personally like that standard. I also grew up around ranches, hunting, dogs, horses, and farms. Don't make the DUMB GUY mistake of assuming that you are the only one in the world with such vast dog and animal experience. And as a side note, if I feel like quoting some of my wifes ranching experience (which is more than mine)then that is my fucking perrogative. Further, yes, and yes, I have had to kill mine and other pets before. Mostly as a humane measure becuase of injury to them. Hows that? -C | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1033 Registered: 05-2002 |
Kyle, "There is also a Disease transfered because the cats shit in the house and walk all around in it , then they go walking all over junior , his bed. Bacteria at its best..." Pretty much dead-on. It is called Toxoplasmosis. It is not really a big problem except in pregnant women where it can lead to all sorts of bad stuff. More info here: http://www.metrokc.gov/health/prevcont/toxoplas.htm -C | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 514 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thats actually perfect... Much better then talking about someone elses ranch dogs in a completely irrelevant situation. I actually didnt make that mistake. I was making reference to what you said. Not what I thought. As far as your wifes Ranching experience ? What the hell does chickens and ranch dogs have to do with a guy getting nibbled on by a house pet ? This guy aint worried about his livestock getting munched on ...As far as it being your perogative , yeah , you can throw in just as much dumb ass irrelevant shit as the next guy if you like but I am going to make note of it. Because , just like you , its my perrogative.. Now if you wanna talk about the husky talk about it. Your dog ? Someone elses? An un known ? You dont seem to be dead.. Disfigured ? Lets have it.. "Blow me" | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 465 Registered: 02-2002 |
yeah, let's talk about dogs.  Ho Chung | ||
| michael a. kerr (Ethanrover98) New Member Username: Ethanrover98 Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Husky story actually sounds interesting.... Let's hear it.... | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 872 Registered: 08-2002 |
In the experiences that I have had with agressive dogs, there are the some dogs that are agressive to strangers and other dogs. Many times this has been trained into the dog and is difficult to train out and in some cases impossible. Although I would imagine that all dogs could have this traight if trained to agression, there are a few breads that are trained into agression fairly easily. If trained properly they will use the agression only in the desired circumstance. There is also an abused dog that has become agressive. This is fairly simple to test for by faking a kick or a hit, but be prepared for the possible reaction. This agression is usually never completely reversable and as a result the owner of the dog must exercise a great deal of caution when other people and dogs are around. My pointer is like this. The other type of aggression is used primarily for display and the pack dominance hierarchy as well as practice play. 99% of the time this agression never results in injury, but it certainly is possible and minor injuries fairly common. I suspect that the problem with this Rotty is the latter and should not be an issue going forward if the dog is properly trained and handled. Dogs that I have had personal experience with being naturally agressive are Doberman, Shepards, Rotties, Dalmations, Malenois and Pitbull. However if brought up properly all of these dogs could be decent family pets as well. Other good tests for agression are the scare test, where you throw a can of coins near the dog and watch the reaction. Opening an automatic umbrella can sometimes have an interesting response. You can also play with a toy and see how the dogs reacts to you taking the toy or you can try to take their food. A good pet would not react agressively to any of these tests. To test whether the dog is going to try to be an alpha over you, you can place them on their back. If the truggle and fight to get back on their feeet you could have a dominant dog (it might also be scared, you need to make a judgement call in this case). | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1034 Registered: 05-2002 |
You are right - I digressed into discussing ranch dogs because I was using it as an example for people who elevate dogs to human status. This had already been done in this thread and I was adressing that alone. Not a direct reference to Matts problem. Neighbors dog. Good friends of the family and all I really remember is running from the dog, being tackled (for lack of a better term) and bitten a few times. Required some stiches and shots. Now the rest is a third hand info 'cause I don't exactly remeber it so it may not qualify in your book, but two adults had to pull the fucker off me. They immediately hauled that dog off and he was beheaded for rabies test. I don't know the results, but I don't think he had rabies. I have not been very fond of dogs bigger than cats since... -C | ||
| michael a. kerr (Ethanrover98) New Member Username: Ethanrover98 Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2003 |
Curtis, You would love my 100 pound golden retriever......He is 12 years old and very gentle.... BUT as gentle as he is we still do not allow him alone with our 16 month old son. And I do agree with you about elevating animals to human status.......... No matter how close a relationship you have with an animal...... they are still animals and cannot be treated as humans...... | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 199 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle, I have never seen your father mentioned on Discoweb before this. I also never mentioned Indian Head. I know that more than one time on Discoweb you seemed to take joy in reporting the intentional killing of cats. Guess you can tell that stuck with me. Whether you ever did this yourself or not, you certainly gave the impression you did. Maybe you just enjoy the shock factor of saying such things, I don't know, but suffice it to say it left a lasting impression on me. Karen | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 200 Registered: 02-2002 |
Matt, I, too, hope you will still seek help from a well-qualified dog trainer. You sought medical help for your injuries and this is no different. You need a good professional to help with your dog. Like I said before, time to get some 3-D help. Good luck. Karen | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 524 Registered: 10-2002 |
Of all the dogs I've met and all the people I've met, I liked a lot more of the dogs. So I have no problem elevating dogs to "human status" as the level of respect I have for most humans isn't that high. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1429 Registered: 02-2003 |
jack, that's a real shame that you haven't met more likable humans. gotta get out of california man.. | ||
| DW (Dcw) New Member Username: Dcw Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2004 |
Well there is one aspect of this �debate� that I find interesting, in a sad sort of way. That is people that I assume have children insisting that people take their dog to a trainer. Are you people taking your kids to a �people trainer�? If you can�t outwit an animal I hate to see how your kids are going to turn out. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 525 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rob, I guess I won't tell you how much of that data was collected during my three years in Pennsylvania. 'Course with the 'Burgh hoarding all the nice people, it isn't really fair to the rest of the state. or so I'm told. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1431 Registered: 02-2003 |
this is true :0) i think it's just are dogs are mean as hell in PA | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 362 Registered: 09-2002 |
Corky Ramono said "dogs aren't born bad, bad people make bad dogs" | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2003 |
Brian, you talking about dogs or dweb posters here? :-) pwc | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kyle, for starters , if you are going to run your mouth , get your shit straight first and then run it. "Then you havnt heard much , its much more common that a cat is an issue with a new born.." You still have nothing to back this up. But you try with "There is also a Disease transfered because the cats shit in the house and walk all around in it , then they go walking all over junior , his bed. Bacteria at its best... " and you're pointed out to be wrong again. I doubt you can point to a single instance you know of a kid getting toxoplasmosis in this manner. It just doesn't happen. Pregnant moms having a problem are also as rare. It's remotely a possibility but frankly, you're more likely to be bitten by a dog. A lot more likely. "Then you havnt heard much , its much more common that a cat is an issue with a new born.." Just back that up with something and you might gain some credibility. Otherwise the fact stands, cats are no more a danger to kids than dogs. pwc | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 615 Registered: 02-2003 |
Cats?? i thought this was about dogs. | ||
| CALM (Gumarcel) Senior Member Username: Gumarcel Post Number: 1148 Registered: 11-2002 |
what about badgers, can it be about badgers too?? www.badgerbadgerbadger.com | ||
| Matthew A. Barnes (Discoveryxd) Senior Member Username: Discoveryxd Post Number: 282 Registered: 08-2003 |
Badgers, Mushrooms, and Snakes? I think the guy who made that was on shrooms. Kinda hypnotic.  | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matthew- Just look at CALM's profile for an explanation... | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1035 Registered: 05-2002 |
I would also like to address this. Kyle: "As far as your wifes Ranching experience ? What the hell does chickens and ranch dogs have to do with a guy getting nibbled on by a house pet?" This one is easy. Dogs are carnivores by nature. There is no exception to this rule for a Rotty. Dog owners feed thier pets some sort of lame substitute for raw meat in the form of packaged or canned dog food. If the mutt is lucky he might get a raw piece of meat every once in a while. What was learned on the ranches (and as I already stated) was that once a dog found out it could get the good stuff - real blood meat - from a live animal, that dog had a natural tendency to keep going after that type of animal. This is certainly not the dogs fault, but if it is killing off more valuable assets...well, you get the picture. I consider children more valuable than dogs. You can consider this third hand information and make note of it as much as you want, but it is fact. The only overriding factor is training and I don't know jack about that. Mind you though, my opinion is biased. I do not like dogs. Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you this. There are currently three dogs I like: Sean Wolfs dog - who is a real sweetheart, and Eddie Bibbs pugs - who stink like hell but are like really fat cats. No pun intended -C | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 515 Registered: 11-2002 |
Curtis , here you begin to slip off into ignorance once again. The dog didnt nip the guy in the face because he wanted to eat him and he certainly didnt walk away snacking on a chunk of his face to savor and think about. You are bringing up the ranch crap to find a way into the conversation , plain and simple. The dog hasnt killed anyone nor can anyone see it happening in the near future. If it was the case I am sure this thread wouldnt have been started. The dog would have simply been dealt with. You seem to be a cat person Curtis... I cant stand em , I tollerate them but still cant stand em. As far as the whole cat disease thing goes. Nope , I didnt have it exactly right but there is somethign to it reguardless ? No ? It wasnt a start of a new direction for the thread Peter , it was simply me addressing one of Karens comments. You know , Karen , the one that participates strictly in the general section and really has nothing to say about a Discovery at all..If you think that an animal that shits in a box IN the house and then walks around in it , then walks all over everything including your child is not a danger then that is your issue. Carry on.... "Blow me" | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1036 Registered: 05-2002 |
Kyle - touche. I think you have slipped off into ignorance as well. Maybe we are just a couple of dumbasses. But before we end this, think about this. The dogs likely did not chase and attack the chickens THE FIRST TIME because they were hungry. After all, they had thier Kibbles n' Bits or whatever crap they were feeding them. They probably chased the chickens because they thought it would be good fun. The blood was a bonus. Keep this in mind if Matt posts in five years that his Rotty attacked his kid. I know I will remember it. I have no illusions that I will make any headway with you on this. You are a dog guy. I guess you could call me a cat person because I (read: my wife) has two, but really I would be just fine with no pets at all. I have three kids and that is plenty enough for the next 20 years or so -C | ||
| CALM (Gumarcel) Senior Member Username: Gumarcel Post Number: 1149 Registered: 11-2002 |
Greg my profile isn't that bad. My friend sent me the site, it is fun. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 365 Registered: 09-2002 |
This is for Kyle. couldn't resist http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040104232109990003 | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 201 Registered: 02-2002 |
" It wasnt a start of a new direction for the thread Peter , it was simply me addressing one of Karens comments. You know , Karen , the one that participates strictly in the general section and really has nothing to say about a Discovery at all.." Yup, this much is mostly true. This is because I read the tech section to try and learn something, and I usually limit my postings to the General section where I might know something about the topic under discussion. Karen | ||
| Sergei Rodionov (Uzbad) Member Username: Uzbad Post Number: 245 Registered: 08-2003 |
Cant resist anymore... --- [Scene changes to Edmund's quarters, below the prince's house. Baldrick is tearing apart some dough. Edmund enters, picks up a tabby cat and punts it high into the air across the room.] Baldrick: Oh, Sir! Poor little Mildred the cat! What's he ever done to you? Edmund: It is the way of the world, Baldrick -- the abused always kick downwards. I am annoyed, and so I kick the cat... the cat [there is a mouse `eek!' noise] pounces on the mouse, and, finally, the mouse-- Baldrick: [startled, jumps] Agh! Edmund: ...bites you on the behind. Baldrick: Well, what do I do? Edmund: Nothing. You are last in God's great chain, Baldrick -- unless, of course, there's an earwig around here that you'd like to victimize. ---- On The Serious Side: Matt - keep dog if you feel you can trust him. No one of us knows your puch better then you do, so stick to your guts feeling. I been around dogs and cats and i like 'em all, and know nasty tales about 'em all. And good tales. Its all different from case to case, so just do it for yourself. If you feels you cant trust your dog anymore - heck, just get rid of him - give him up, or put him to sleep. If you feels like he snapped - just be a bit more carefull and teach your kid to be respectfull of dog. I grew up next to german shepperd, and while she bit plenty of people, she never touched me, on contraire - she was pretty protective of me... Our cat would be first to come and scream at us , when my son was crying and we wont come. Yet she would occasionally slap him, when he would offend her (namely grab her by tail )... | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1034 Registered: 04-2003 |
Kyle, you've educated the children that come into your home about why/how to respect the dogs, and you've trained the dogs to be good around the kids. That's great - sounds like it's worked out since you haven't had any incidents. Your case is more the rule and less the exception. But would your perspective change if you experienced the exception: one of your dogs attacked you or someone else (for whatever reason)? Wouldn't you want to be a bit more cautious, or at least think twice about the kids & dogs being together? That's all this thread is about. Actually, this thread is really about seeking justification for keeping the dog, since that was the predetermined decision prior to the first post. Otherwise, there would be no thread. | ||
| SSV (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 590 Registered: 06-2002 |
Karen, I guess I'm right there with you. I post in the Discovery Tech section when I need to add a "HELP" to the end of the subject line! And I have certainly enjoyed reading quite a few of these BELABORED arguments in the General section. Back to Matt's original question (and be warned, I don't have children yet)...I have dogs that have been raised with children and I must say that makes a huge difference. I have seen and known dogs that were unaccustomed to a human smaller than them tugging on their ears and poking their eyes, and they often don't respond very well. JUST as many HUMAN people don't like children! I would be inclined to think that the combination of pent-up energy and rough play were more than enough to warrant your dog's 'attack.' Reading his response to your correction and dominance I would think that he now understands what his role is once again and where you both stand. I would certainly say give him a chance for a week or two and see if he is back to his normal behavior. Having been around a lot of children/dog combinations (but again read: not my own!) I must agree that the two should be kept separate or atleast monitored at all times...since your dog has been the only child for such a long time. He certainly deserves the attention he is used to getting (perhaps minus the rough play) and should probably remain a part of your immediate family. I'm sure you will teach your infant all he needs to know about the dog (when he is old enough to understand) and vice versa. Good luck and may your wounds heal fast. Susannah (who tends to think that maybe humans should be lowered to dog status on occasion!) | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 634 Registered: 12-2002 |
Susannah, Your profile picture shows your Disco in some very odd looking soil, at least to me it is. Is it red clay or just a cool looking light aberration? Tim | ||
| Jim Reynolds (4x4xfar) Member Username: 4x4xfar Post Number: 250 Registered: 05-2003 |
Matt , We had 2 Springers, When our child was born the one started acting "wierd". We actually took it to the dog pyschiatrist and they gave it a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most dangerous. Later he nipped at me and then our baby girl. We took him to the vet and called shrink, he said put the dog down. I guess it is for the best but still very hard to do. Best of luck, it isn't easy whatever your decide. Tim I think that is Geirgia Red Clay. -JIm | ||
| Matt (Doc175) Member Username: Doc175 Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a friend at work who's nieghbor is the head canine trainer for the local MP's at Ft. Bragg. Here is what he said (I am paraphrasing greatly). Untrained dog usually bite in one of two ways: 1. An aggressive attack which is characterized by typically more prolonged( as opposed to a no warning bite)aggressive posturing, raised fur on back, growling etc. They will usually attempt to continue to attack and you could have to fend them off. 2. A fear/pain bite. This is characterized by what is a almost a "knee-jerk" reaction and is for the dog'd self-prreservation. It is usually a quick bite and them the dog realizes it was "wrong" but could it is instinctual. He said that it is there is a definate issue if the dog bite the handler and it need to addressed quickly. He said that while beating the animal is not typically a good thing this was an instance where it was right. This re-establishes the hierarchy. Over the next few weeks it is important to make the dog obey all commands and reset the tone. He felt that this was more of a fear/pain response and was probably and isolated event. It was an hour conversation so I know I glossed over a lot but it was very informative. That all being said, my lip and the five stitches still hurts like a Mo-Fo | ||
| SSV (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 593 Registered: 06-2002 |
Tim, that picture is actually from MAR which took place about 1.5 hours away from my home in Virginia. Yes Jim, Georgia's red clay is similar, but we have it here too! | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2003 |
"As far as the whole cat disease thing goes. Nope , I didnt have it exactly right but there is somethign to it reguardless ? No ? It wasnt a start of a new direction for the thread Peter , it was simply me addressing one of Karens comments." Ahhh come on Kyle, you can do better. You address Karen's comment of "Interestingly, I've never heard of a domestic cat killing a kid....... " with "Then you havnt heard much , its much more common that a cat is an issue with a new born.." and that's the comment you can't back up. When that failed you brought up toxoplasmosis as if that is some mad rampant danger worse than Matt's original query about his dog going after his kid. You said it yourself, "its much more common that a cat is an issue with a new born.." This just ain't true. As for your last comment about an animal walking around in crap; dogs and cats both walk over their own crap and urine. You have dogs with a yard I assume as do I. Given a whole yard (and without proper training to use one spot), dogs piss and crap all over the place and have been known to run over it, especially the urine, while playing. Cats at least bury their crap. Not to mention dogs, as well as cats, lick around their privates while cleaning and then have been known to try to lick people. There's also the great dead animals a dog will roll around in. Don't tell me you've never had a dog in all your life come home after rolling in something putrid, like horse shit or some such. You see cats doing that? nope. Face it Kyle, cats are no more of a threat to a kid than a dog is. Even if you hate cats. Your arguement is weak and misguided with hearsay. Give it up and go back to bashing people because they don't post in the tech section because they don't know as much as you. pwc | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 517 Registered: 11-2002 |
So you have dogs that walk around in shit and then walk on people ? I have had dogs all my life and its certainly not the case. If a dog shits in the house people freak out. But if you own a cat its SOP for him to shit in the house. Dogs are trained NOT to shit in the house and cats are trained TO shit in the house. Yeah , thats gotta be a healty thing. Dogs are actually freakish about not walking around in thier own shit they want no parts of it. WHile cats have a little box to walk in that full of shit AND piss. Then they scratch around a little then go walking all over the house with that shit on their feet. Dont even start on that nasty shit...And this thread is about a dog and a bite. And I will bash you for what ever the hell I want to bash you about. In fact , your dumb ass dont even exist... "Blow me" | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 421 Registered: 10-2002 |
Chris- It may not be obvious reading my postings, but I think your profile pic and the badger,badger site are actually very funny. | ||
| CALM (Gumarcel) Senior Member Username: Gumarcel Post Number: 1155 Registered: 11-2002 |
pimp...I think i might change the pic to a funnier one. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 873 Registered: 08-2002 |
"That is people that I assume have children insisting that people take their dog to a trainer. Are you people taking your kids to a �people trainer�? If you can�t outwit an animal I hate to see how your kids are going to turn out." Well, now there is a really interesting comment. I find it quite amusing that some people with kids never even consider taking them and their kids in for some training. Many parents that I know are not capable of raising a dog or a kid and seek out no help in either. I regularly work/train my dogs with other dogs, including strange dogs. I have spent a lot of time researching how to train them and both show it. I can't say that about every parent or every child. If I did have a child, it would be a very well trained child. I would not let the child train me as so many kids these days do. Further training does not equal outwiting. Back to dogs. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2003 |
"In fact , your dumb ass dont even exist..." Huh? what's this supposed to mean? And please point out where I said dogs crap indoors. "And I will bash you for what ever the hell I want to bash you about." HAHAHA! Man, you're losing it. Matt, I apologize for fuddling up your thread with my useless banter. This is my last post in the thread since I can't get a sane debate from Kyle. Glad to hear you're not going to kill the dog. pwc | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 1037 Registered: 05-2002 |
Brian, You bring up an interesting point. I view DW's post as pure nonsense. I have kids and no dogs, but admit that training is effective on dogs. According to him I need a "people trainer". My 2 of 3 kids that are barely of school age are fortunate enough to have quality private education; however, I have found out that school does not train kids. The more the parents are involved in the kids, the better the results in "training". I would assume this is the same with dogs. "If I did have a child, it would be a very well trained child. I would not let the child train me as so many kids these days do." While I agree with you in the summary of this statement, if you ever have kids you will find that this is a precarious balance at best. Kids will train you. Hopefully they will train you to be a better parent, but if you decide to breed you will soon learn that a childs will and intelligence is well beyond that of a dog. At least that is my experience. You have to have that survivor mentality: "Outwit, outplay, & outlast". -C | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 881 Registered: 08-2002 |
I am not saying anything about the comparison of a dog and a kid. What I am saying is that if I did this much learning/effort to train a dog, I certainly would do much, much more before having a child and that not many people really learn how to raise a kid before having one. Just like it would be somewhat irresponsible to raise a dog without knowing what to do I feel the same about many parents bringing up their child without any type of formal training. Just to be sure... I am not talking about you Curtis, you might be intelligent enough or even gifted with the ability to train/bring-up your child. A little training would never hurt anyone whether it is for you dog, your child or off-roading. Formal education from a reputable professional is always a great idea. BTW no kids for me. Way too hard. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 847 Registered: 02-2002 |
Matt, good to hear you're going to give your dog another chance. after the amount of time the bow-wow has been with you, feel confident you'll get it back under control. having had bow-wows all of my life which is probably more years than most on this board, a few comments: 1. dogs do not like to be in their shit or pee. that is why using a crate for house-breaking is very effective. they will do everything possible not to relieve themselves in their space. my Labs even today on walks go out of their way not to be in it. dead animals - thats different! 2. kids and dogs usually go very well together. when I was a tike, I was placed in "crib" with wheels on it so it would move around by pushing with your feet. our Boxer was attached to the "crib" most of the time for protection when the rents would leave me alone in the yard. never had any problems. 3. there is responsibility to teach a kid how to behave around pets. i.e. - don't pull their tails, ears, etc.. if the kid is too young, the rents have the job of managing the situation.  cats Jaime | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 617 Registered: 02-2003 |
I can also agree my grand parents had some kinda dog maybe mastiff/lab and it would guard the babies and children. I wonder why dogs are so intrigued by dead stuff, both english pointers we have had and my current brittany spaniel love to find something dead and roll around in it. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 707 Registered: 02-2003 |
Since dogs were hunters before they were domesticated, they instinctively roll around in stuff to mask their own smell. That probably explains why they avoid their own crap and urine, too. This is second hand information taken from a show I once saw on Animal Planet, so it should be considered hearsay, and as such disregarded. - Axel | ||
| Jamie (Rover_puppy) Senior Member Username: Rover_puppy Post Number: 678 Registered: 05-2003 |
The best relationships that I have seen are when the dog and the owners have MUTUAL respect for each other. You never know when you may enter unimaginable circumstance and require the assistance of your dog(s), even a dog even if you only consider them a pet. Earning the loyalty of a dog(s) can be one of the best things to ever happen to you. With all the posts here about dogs harming children within families, I am somewhat surprised that I have not read much about dogs protecting children within families. It is impossible to count how many dogs have contributed to saving the lives of children in Florida. Drowning is one of the leading causes of child deaths in our state. Unfortunately, many times it has been the number one cause. Because of that, we start swimming lessons in infancy. You cannot "drown proof" a baby, so the focus is on "gaining every extra second" that you can by pleasantly interacting with your baby in the water (like playing fun games and teaching them to roll over onto their back when in the water). Teach a baby to do this and you've gained an extra 5 seconds for your child to be revived in time. You don't even want to know how often we experience the deaths of babies and children drowning - sometimes there are several cases in one day. With so many homes having swimming pools, the gulf, the intercoastal, and lakes - it can be a nightmare here. Especially when you know that if someone had only gotten there 30 seconds earlier - a child might not have died. Something as simple as answering the phone, a parent turning their attention toward something else for just a few moments (as we all do) and their child is gone - forever. Have you ever seen what happens when a child falls in water when the family dog is around? Family dogs are usually aware of what everyone is doing and where everyone is. They see a family child struggling in water and they go ballistic, barking up a storm and alerting everyone that something is wrong - which brings the bigger people running to pull out the child in time. Has anyone here had any experience with the "four legged" family member protecting children? Jamie | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 985 Registered: 09-2002 |
I used to live on an acreage when I was very young (6 or 7 years old). Living out in the rural areas, the bus stops are quite a ways from where I live so my dad and our German Shepherd used to walk me to the bus stop and wait with me for the bus. Eventually it was just the dog and me and it got to the point where he knew when the bus dropped me off at the end of the day so he used to walk me in the morning an wait and then at the end of the day he'd be there waiting for me when I got off. One of the best dogs I've ever had. | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 480 Registered: 04-2003 |
BEGIN THREADJACK: Axel, hearsay is not always to be disregarded -- only when it is unreliable. See, for example, FRE 803(1) et seq, Wis. Stat. s. 908.03(1) et seq. Now, you talking about something you heard on Animal Planet strikes me as pretty reliable, so I would rule it admissible END THREADJACK | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1192 Registered: 09-2002 |
My grandma's favorite story is that one day they returned home (where I was left with an Irish setter twice my size, and who's been in the family before I was born), and couldn't find me or the dog. Some time later, they heard a faint "psssst" from the dinner table - and saw me sleeping fast on top of that setter. He wouldn't bark so he wouldn't wake me up! In my early school years, my fox terrier would protect me at the microsecond he deemed there was a threat (often there was, I wasn't always a part of the "pack"). Think a fox terrier is too small to inflict some damage? Also, all of our dogs went nuts when they saw us or our kids diving under water - our airedale recently plunged into the pool (that he wouldn't get near, normally) when my wife was overly excited by 57-degree water. Speaking of dog bites... I've taken apart many a dog fight (most of them involving that fox terrier), and been bitten more times that I can remember. Mostly in hands and legs. Dogs are very clean and healthy critters - never had any lasting damage, even after I was bitten by a stray dog that I wanted to befriend (when it was carrying a bone from a dumpster nearby). However... I'd say dogs are twice stronger than humans, body weight compared - so think twice before getting yourself in a vulnerable position with a 130-lb dog. Also - I've just got back home after all our family has been away for 10 days; our dog stayed at home, with people he knew well and who loved him. Still, I can see he's not quite the same yet. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 902 Registered: 08-2002 |
My parent have photos of their German Shepard "hearding" the kids into the yard. Not protecting them, but I bet that kind of dog would have protected. Not the typical story that you hear about shepards, usually they are a bit nippy at the heels. | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) Member Username: Porter Post Number: 108 Registered: 05-2003 |
That's how shepherds herd, they nip at the heels of the flock animals to keep them in line, although mine tend to run slightly ahead and then turn into your path. I remember watching my older shepherd trip my mom that way. She tumbled head over heels, and the expression on the dog's face like "what'd I do" just made me laugh harder. But seriously, to address the initial issue - you have a 130 lbs rottie, think back about the incident, was the dog in attack mode, or was it playing extra rough? There's a difference. I tend to play rough with my dogs, and they're close to the size of your dog. Sometimes I've gotten my lip split open or scratched from rough housing but its my fault for letting it get to that point. If you were playing that hard with someone who weighed 130lbs, you might have ended up with similar bumps and bruises. | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) New Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2004 |
When I was two years old my parents had a Collie named Nipper that saved my life. We were living in Boonsboro, MD and that dog got in between a pissed off Copperhead and me and the dog took the bite from the snake. Luckly my dad was almost right there when he heard the dog barking at the snake before getting bit. The snake got cut into two by my dad after it bit the dog so it didn't have a chance for a second bite. The good thing is that my dad was able to save the dog. The one thing that I wonder about though is what the hell was I doing at two years old being let to play outside by myself? Oh, and geese make crappy pets. They chase you around and bite you when you are smaller then them. Ask me how I know this. Anyway, I believe that dogs do more good things for people these days then harm. My dog has alwasy been protective of little kids (neighbors and now my own) however, I know that he bites and I know that he will bite if put in certain situations so as his owner I need to be responsible and take precautions so that undeserving people don't get harmed. Which I do. | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2002 |
14 yrs old, standing quietly next to a swimming hole with a friend. No animals around, no roughhousing. A couple walks up with two retrievers - no leashes. A moment later I hear a 'snap' sound and look behind me. My shoe is filling with blood from the bite on the back of my thigh and one of the dogs is slinking away with its head down. I'm shocked, never had a dog, never happened before. I say to owners "your dog just bit me". Their response was "that couldn't have been MY dog, they've been with us for 9 years and have never bitten anyone!" I've still got the scars and the wonderful, loving pets weren't rabid. I've never trusted a dog since and wouldn't fucking DREAM of having a carnivorous animal living in my home with my children. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1252 Registered: 02-2002 |
So Matt, many responses here. I think that if you filter out the replies from the following people, you might find a more consistent and informed group who's advice could potentially be taken seriously: 1. People without children. Nieces, nephews, younger cousins don't count. 2. Those with such acreage in a warm climate that can securely keep their rottie outside and away from their kids 100% of the time. 3. Rednecks who are both covered with and proud of their current set of bite marks and scars. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 519 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dont forget british pussies and people WITHOUT dogs... "Blow me" | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1255 Registered: 02-2002 |
My pussy cat isn't British! | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 852 Registered: 02-2002 |
obviously the dog didn't like you Shawn.  when my Labs start to freak with some folks we encounter, I usually am leary of them and keep my distance. | ||
| SSV (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 603 Registered: 06-2002 |
I can say that almost EVERY time I have hurt myself around my dog (stubbed toe, or cut finger or whatever caused me to yelp outloud) she has come running to help me. When I first got her I dropped something on my foot in the kitchen and she was in another room of my house. We really hadn't bonded yet as she had been with me for only a week (rescue dog ~6months old), but she came running and was at my side sniffing my face and trying to figure out why I was crying. She seems to be very protective and although she's not a watchdog (too friendly!!) I am fairly certain she would save me if need be! She is a shepherd though, very sensitive to voice commands...just a simple NO and she stops anything she is doing...even when the word isn't directed to her! And she does tend to herd people...perhaps that is more in her nature than other dogs. | ||
| Tim '92 RR (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 645 Registered: 12-2002 |
Has anyone here had any experience with the "four legged" family member protecting children? I wish I could say my dog had that ability. Here's our present dog below, unfortunately the worst watchdog in the world! I don't think she would hurt a flea to save her life. My former Black Lab mix was very protective and a great watchdog, always reminding us when someone approached our property. The Berner's just want to welcome EVERYONE and be their new friend. Tim  | ||
| SSV (Susannah) Senior Member Username: Susannah Post Number: 628 Registered: 06-2002 |
Tim, she certainly is beautiful though. Someday, I hope to get a Bernese....they are my absolute favorite breed! Although my shepherd looks almost identical to one in 1/4 size!!! |
