| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 137 Registered: 04-2003 |
Ok, so its been 6 months since I finished the install and I thought I would update on how the engine has been, whats gone wrong, whats gone right, and was it worth it... First trip out offroad in it was a peak to peak trip through Crested Butte in Colorado. Most of the trip was at 8000 ft plus and at one point I was driving up a very steep incline to American Flag Peak where I think the gps said 10,000. There was no drop in power at any time. The engine just pulled with huge amounts of torque all the way to the top. Next trip was to Holy Cross in Colorado as well. It had been a year since I did Holy Cross and I forgot how hard some of the obstacles can be there especially in the rain like I was. Again, the engine just chugged with power while giving almost no pedal to it. I could literally idle up the trail, and then simply tap the pedal lightly to edge up over rocks and ledges. This happens to also be where I discovered an interesting downside. Mark was in his jeep in front of me, and stopped suddenly. As I hit my brake to stop as well, I noticed that the brake pedal was very different all of the sudden and I nearly ran into the back of him. After a short discussion, we determined that what it was, is that the engine had been idling so low while crawling up the mountain that it wasnt generating "enough vacumn" to provide the brake assist. The brakes still worked of course, but just felt drasticly different. This of course is only an issue on the trail, and has never occurred in normal daily driving. Then was the great Rover Rally out in Utah in Sept. I promptly drove from Boulder to Moab, and only used 3/4 of a tank.. buahahahahaha!!!! Everyone in our group had to gas up and I simply took a leak and left the engine running for good measure. During the rally, again, the engine performed flawlessly. It handled the heat really well also. I do have a "Dakar" radiator which is a 5 core with offeset rows so Im sure that had something to do with it. The power and torque is simply unbeatable and astounding on the trail. There something about having that power at such a low rpm that makes it able to get over obstacles so effortlessly. No more wheelspin trying to force yourself over things. I fucked my truck up pretty well anyways at the rally, but that had nothing to do with the engine, and I fixed it already so we wont go into that. Lets just say that my rear axle housing almost came off.. Mileage has been great! I would estimate that im getting somewhere around 22mpg at the momment. The other day I filled the tank (23.4 gallons) and I had gone 88 miles after an 1/8 of a tank was used up. It of course varies on the usual , driving style , weather, etc... ITs awesome though.. Now for the bad.. It does vibrate more then I would like, and its been determined that this is due to keeping the V8 mounts as a part of the kit rather then cutting them off on the fram and welding new ones on. Its not a huge deal, and you dont even care at all till you sit in one that has been done with tdi fram mounts instead of the v8 mounts. I will probably switch to tdi mounts at some point. You dont have to take the engine out to change em. Cold starting is a problem.. Mine did not come with glow plugs or a block heater, and it will not start when the temp is below 20 degress F. I am fixing this by installing a block heater $60 and carrying a propane torch in the truck $40. If you pull the air intake host off, and use the torch to heat the air at the intake, it will start right up in extreme -0 cold. I shredded a radiator hose with the alternator. Dont ask me how cause I dont know. I think its because the sound proof padding on the hood, pushes the air intake hose down a little and that hose pushed the radiator hose down so it barely touched the alternator fins. Thats all the bad though..! not a big deal.. Needless to say, I love it, I would do it again in a heartbeat.. Frank did a more detailed install then I did, he put in a EGT and I think he has some sort of air heating system in his. Also he put on a transmission cooler from Summit whereas I am using the stock one.. I may do that at some point as well. Cost? Well, as has been said elsewhere.. $10-15k is what you are looking at. There is really no way to do it for what some companies are advertising. Mine is an auto so it costs more then a 5 speed would. I also got the hi-cap radiator, and AC hookups and adapter, all which just add on $$.. My kit is from MD engineering via BritRest in Canada. I think my total cost plus shipping on just the engine and kit was $11,500. If it was a 5 speed and you didnt get AC or hi-cap radiator I think you can do it for $9500. Customs seemed like they really wanted to give me a hard time, but for some reason didnt. Duty was $150 I think.. It came in as vehicle repair / replacement parts. This engine is NOT EPA approved.. which I think basicly means, you can bring it in as an individual, but not as a company trying to resell and not in quantity. The engine meets EUROII spec which should meet or beat most emmissions req's in the country.. Dont know about California. Interesting SNAFU though... Federal clean air EPA standards require 96 and newer vehicles to have OBDII computers and engine management. Mine is a 97. I do NOT have OBDII anymore.. Therefore I do NOT meet standards for some states emmissions tests. It comes down to who tests you and what state your in as to if you will get the green light. Here in Colorado, they have a special appreciation for rigs like ours so I was given a green light. If you do this conversion use a 95 or older vehicle if you are unsure of your states approval req's. Hope this helps anyone else wondering if its worth it.. answer is.. if your going to keep your Land Rover a long time, and value the performance and simplicity of a diesel.. DO IT... !! Personally I think the $10k is well worth it if you go offroad, and travel alot in your vehicle. Enjoy! | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 149 Registered: 08-2003 |
Awesome write up Richard - now if only my stock options were worth something Jeff | ||
| Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 238 Registered: 09-2002 |
Hey Richard, any thoughts about putting the website back up? I imagine doing the work too precedence over documenting it, but I'd love to see pics and such. r- Ray | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Billb Post Number: 1386 Registered: 02-2002 |
Richard, Thanks for taking the time to do the complete update. Great information! Sounds like an awesome conversion even with some of the small (correctable) downsides you mentioned. Guess I really will have to rob that bank now!  Thanks again = glad it's worked out for you Bill | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1122 Registered: 04-2003 |
Then was the great Rover Rally out in Utah in Sept. I promptly drove from Boulder to Moab, and only used 3/4 of a tank.. buahahahahaha!!!! Everyone in our group had to gas up and I simply took a leak and left the engine running for good measure. that is just awesome, bravo! | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 11 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hey Richard ! There you are ! ! ! Been trying to find you for some time, now, to catch up on all that's happening... Yes, we added a single glow plug to the intake manifold, but have yet to have need of it. Starting, even in very cold Michigan temps, has so far not been a problem (knock wood ! ! ! ). It would be nice to add a block heater, just to make the motor happier. Could you please let me know what you got and where you found it ? I have not had any luck... I have not been tracking fuel mileage, but I can concur with your comment about going far on only an 1/8th of a tank... As for vibration, the rubber biscuits for the motor and trans are designed for the 2.8, so even though we are using the V8 chassis mounts, I would guess that maybe some of those nuts on both sides of the biscuits might need to be checked. I spoke to a few people and one comment made was that after the installation, it is a good idea to look for things to tighten up. Regarding the OBDII, we both still have it for the SRS air bags, so I think we could sneak away with that one. Also, it appears that many states don't look as closely at diesels over gas engines (your results may vary ;-) Customs didn't give me a hard time, but the FDA held up the container it was in for a long time in Chicago. Regarding the radiator hose on the alternator, there is an unexplained bracket in the kit that would require removing the power steering pump pulley to fully remove the bolts needed to secure the bracket, but I didn't discover it until later, so seeing that it might be a problem, during the installation, I used several zip ties to make sure that the hose wouldn't be pulled down into the pulley. Maybe that could work for the alternator ? Good to hear from you and please stay in touch... Frank | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 537 Registered: 10-2002 |
Richard, First of all, good work on the install and congrats. Second, (insert hijack) could you describe this brake phenomenon you experienced. I swear I have the exact same thing happen in my V8 disco. Only on technical trails going really slow, the pedal gets totally soft. My wheel bearings are fine and i have no air in the system. What exactly occurs to reduce your braking ability? Trying to figure out if it could be the same thing. thanks. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1267 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jack, I think his problem was just the opposite - the pedal went too hard. Too soft is okay, especially after significant engine braking. Richard, your brake issue can be solved using electric vacuum pump from Master Power Brakes. | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2004 |
The 2.8 has a vacuum pump on the rear of the alternator... I agree with Richard that lots of idling probably does not pump enough vacuum for the brake booster. However, it might be worth making sure that the ends of the vacuum hose are well sealed at both the pump and the booster ends. Frank | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1129 Registered: 04-2003 |
Good info Dekkard, thank for sharing with the sandbox | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1268 Registered: 09-2002 |
You're right, Frank, Richard did not mention repeated brake applications. It has to be a leak somewhere. | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Senior Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 293 Registered: 08-2002 |
How are the onroad manners? On the highway? Stop and go city driving? Thanks for the updates guys! | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) New Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2003 |
Frank, Espar has a number of heaters for both coolant and cab. http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/water/wterheat.htm They are a German company and have other things on their German site, but only carry a part of that for the US Distributors. They are pretty dang expensive though and if you haven't had to use the glow plug yet, it might not be worth it. Having a timer would be nice though to help with engine longevity in those type of temperatures. They also have a cab heaters http://www.espar.com/htm/airheat.htm again, really nice but not needed. There's another diesel fed block heater but I can't remember the name right now. Otherwsie, Richard probably got one of the more simple ones that are electric and need plugging in at night. pwc | ||
| Brian O'Connor (Hooky) Member Username: Hooky Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2003 |
I want one too! Great write up! THX | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 139 Registered: 04-2003 |
re: brake issue.. it was a while ago, so I dont recall if it was fixed with multiple pumps. I suspect it was.. It could be a leaky fitting. I recall that the existing vacumn line didnt fit on the vacumn fitting off the pump, so I ended up bridging it with some hose.. Probably explains a higher possibility for a leak. Happens only when idling down the trail for a long time though. Frank, excellent to hear from you too.. I sort of hibernate come winter and dont work on the rover much when its cold so I tend to vanish, and then reaapear in the spring. A rover 300tdi heater block will not fit as you probably have discovered. For some bizzare reason, International changed the size of the block plug. I think its 47mm. Anyways, Keith from RoverTracks is fabbing a plug to then use with the block heater core from a 300tdi. I told him they werent available and he might make a bunch of the 2.8 guys. You can certainly have him make one up for you as well.. I dont think it will cost much. maybe $30? plus the heater $60? Starting in extreme cold is not a problem at all if you just use a torch to heat the air intake. Not the ideal solution, but will always work and cheaper then a fuel igniter line or whatever its called. Ill check my fittings, but I suspect the vibration is solely due to using angled mounts instead of vertical mounts. The suspension helps damper more of the diesel vibes when its mounted vertical. But then I suppose it will feel less like a truck and more like a mall crawler again. lol.. re. leftover parts.. I did have a few leftover bits. I dont recall what any of them were, as you know, directions are next to none... I have a bracket that holds the small hose running up to the heater rail, but I dont recall one for the alternator or ps pump. The part I shredded was directly above the alternator at 1 oclock position. I ordered 2 hoses to have as backup now in case it ever happens again. D90 tdi hoses will NOT work.. just so you know.. the disco tdi hose has an extra bend in it that is required to clear the alternator and belts. Road manners...? we dont need no stinkin road manners!!! Putting a diesel in makes your Land Rover sound, and drive more like a truck. It removes the mall crawler feel completely. It changes the way you drive, and has a very pleasant effect. Winding up the turbo and whipping up to speed easily is pleasant now. Going over hills is a breeze now, where as my V8 had to pray to buddha to just make it up at 40mph. My max speed is about 75mph with the diesel. I could probably go faster, but my truck is HEAVILY moddified, and has a 4 inch lift so other factors make it safer to stay below 75. btw.. at this years Rally there were like 9 or 10 diesels.. it was awesome.. I was the only 2.8 but the guys with 300's have em tuned up nicely. | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 140 Registered: 04-2003 |
ray, yes i have pics of the whole build up in detail.. I will get the site backup at some point.. my hosting company went out of business for the second time, and I got tired of switching companies.. Cant we have the .com bubble back now please!!!!! | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) Member Username: Norm Post Number: 106 Registered: 02-2003 |
Peter, Did you install this thing yourself? If so, how many man hours did it take? My problem is that I don't have the time or mechanical inclination to do this. Is there any body out there who could install it for a reasonable price? I know ECR used to do a Tdi conversion for @ $30,000.00 which is out of he question. If I could get it installed for $15K or so, parts & labor, it might be worth it. ---Norm | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) Member Username: Norm Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2003 |
Peter -- I mean Richard, sorry. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2003 |
M&D says it will take 40hours for a experienced mech. to put it in. Looking at the prices on their site, you should be able to get one to the US and put in for $15K with a shop doing it. Where do you live, region-wise? Even at some $90/hr for a dealer, you could still sqweek in under $15K if they didn't go much over 40 hours. that's, of course, a worstcase scenario. pwc | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 143 Registered: 04-2003 |
yes, I did mine myself. Took me 14 days but, I did more then just the engine when I did it. Iw ould guess the engine stuff took me 10 days total. so about 70 hours. But I was certainly not rushing. Call Jim Pendleton @ Pendy Imports.. 316-210-9514 He can do it for ya and will be at a reasonable price.. Expected time is a bit more then 40 hours for replacing a v8.. replacing a tdi would be 40 maybe. I would expect 60 hours on average. I dont think a dealer would touch the job. liability issues. | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 13 Registered: 01-2004 |
You can read my comments on time, on the other thread. It took me a bit, too, but then I did an even larger amount of other changes, also, including, but not limited to, suspension, new trans and transfer case, bumpers, brake system, etc., etc., etc. Peter, thanks for the information. I have already bought a diesel-powered heater, but have not yet found a good spot under the hood to fit it and am concerned about it being damaged during deep wading. I'll dig up the name of it and post that later. If anyone wants info on the company, I can give them contact information of a great distributor that was very helpful. Yes, Jim P. would be an excellent person to install a 2.8 kit from M&D. He has done a number of them, already. Richard, thanks. I'll contact Keith. He's already built me a rear axle ;-) Where did you get your block heater that you're putting in, may I ask ? As for the vacuum hose, try for one from a parts store (bulk) that fits tightly to both fittings and hose clamp it too. I've not had any issues. It's snowing like mad here, but I'll have a look for the hose near the alternator and see if I can find what you mean. Maybe I routed it differently ? Eric asked about road manners and one thing I can add is that there's so much low end torque that I can be a hero at the stop light grand prix, here :-) As for top speed, I have gone well over 80 ( disclaimer: controlled test environment ;-) and haven't seen top speed, yet, but agree with Richard that with suspension lift, no sway bars at all and very off-road specific tires, top speed cruising is no longer as fun - and that has nothing to do with the motor. Suffice it to say that cruising at 70~75 is no problem... Frank | ||
| Alan Stuart (Alan_stuart) New Member Username: Alan_stuart Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 |
Richard--Great writeup. Thanks! So you're saying that you can move up the hills at 75mph? What hills--Eisenhower or Vail Passes? I haven't been able to go that fast up those hills in anything I've owned! Anyway, can you cruise uphill at altitude faster and with more power to spare than our V8s? Also Richard or Frank, does the kit not come with glow plugs, or is that an option? Is the plug activated like the TDI. Too many questions. (I have more--maybe to take off list)? Thanks, Alan Stuart www.northbyrover.com (out of hybernation, looking at the 2.8) | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 14 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hi Alan, Glow plugs were not something that could be an option upon ordering the kit, as the 2.8 was mainly pointed at the Brazilian market, International did not design them in, since there was not a real need, I believe. However, I have heard that the next generation does now have them :-) We added one big one from an F250 to the intake and used the Rover glow plug timer to run it. I have not used it yet, leaving the fuse out to keep it from operating, and have not yet (knock wood !) had need... If you want to ask more, off-list is okay. We're changing to a new ISP, tomorrow, so I'll need to update our e-mail address, when we get it. Frank | ||
| Mark (Roverwrecks) New Member Username: Roverwrecks Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2003 |
Richard if it's disk space you need I have some on CelebrationIT.com you can have to host it on. It's where I park an the old Colonial Rover links site. | ||
| Mark (Roverwrecks) New Member Username: Roverwrecks Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2003 |
Richard if it's disk space you need I have some on CelebrationIT.com you can have to host it on. It's where I park the old Colonial Rover links site. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 1140 Registered: 04-2003 |
doesn't pirate have a lot of unused space? | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 144 Registered: 04-2003 |
Alan, I can go over eisenhower at 60 mph easily.. Havent tried 75 up hill yet.. =) I was lucky to get 25 mph in the v8.. I dont think that has much to do with the diesel though, and more to do with the big fat turbo it has. Natural aspiration at 10,000 feet is a bitch. The diesel certainly helps with pulling alot of weight up the hills though. That is for sure. I weigh 6000lbs with all my gear. Frank, are you using the one piece lower hose that branches off to the heater rail and expansion tank? thats the one i blew. It comes off the engine just below the air intake, and curves around the side of the alternator and then down to the lower rad pipe. the block heater i got from Rovers north andit just for a standard 300tdi $60 i think.. Keith is simply going to adapt the plug for me to fit the 47mm .. or maybe hes just making one from scratch.. i dont know, havent seen him in a week or so. Charlie lent me a magnetic heater that you can stick to your oil pan and use that to heat the block up.. Its not as elegant , but i suppose would work in a pinch. Nice to see you back Alan, I enjoyed watching your progress up to Alaska.. | ||
| Alan Stuart (Alan_stuart) New Member Username: Alan_stuart Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 |
<I can go over eisenhower at 60 mph easily.. <Havent tried 75 up hill yet.. =) Works for me. <Nice to see you back Alan, I enjoyed watching <your progress up to Alaska.. Thanks. Now I would like a diesel for a drive south (far south). BTW, you might try www.redhummer.net or maybe it's www.RHhosting.net for web space. Allan Madar is good and very reasonable. Frank and Richard, thanks for the replies. It's good to get some honest, real-world feedback rather than sales hype for a change. I may be in touch off-line if it's okay. Alan | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 15 Registered: 01-2004 |
It is a Webasto "BlueHeat" Heater that is intended for a Ford full-size diesel pick-up... I got it from a place called Fishing Creek Transportation in PA. The fellow there was super helpful and sent the kit with a universal mounting bracket and lots of instructions. I didn't opt for the key fob controller, since it comes with a programmable timer. I may yet install it (it is not large), but I am still concerned about water damage from deep wading. Richard, thanks. Yes, I believe that it is the big one-piece hose. I'll have a look, as soon as I can - it's horrible out, right now 8^O I talked to Rovers North, a long time ago, about a block heater, but didn't get anywhere. I'll give them another try and ask Keith to make me an adapter. That's a good idea about the oil pan heater - heat rises and it's important to get the oil flowing, so it may not be elegant, but it sounds like good logic. Big, fat turbo is right ! It's making boost at idle :-) There is no lag ! Frank | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 16 Registered: 01-2004 |
Off-line is okay, Alan... Frank | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 145 Registered: 04-2003 |
Alan, ya, the email in my profile is correct now. Feel free. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks Frank. Webasto was the other company I couldn't remember. pwc | ||
| Frank Dalton (Unscooter) New Member Username: Unscooter Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hi Peter, LOL - I couldn't remember it, either ;-) It's an excellent product and I wish I could've gotten it installed, before the cold weather, but it just didn't happen. If I can figure out how to do it and not have issues with wading and water ingress, then I may yet give it a try. It's not cheap, but then you don't need to have an electrical outlet... Frank |
