| Author | Message | ||
     Shane Lesteberg (Snwbord24) New Member Username: Snwbord24 Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2004 |
ok, I've read some archive stuff. What I gather is that I should get a different t-case with CDL for my '03 then get lockers. How does all of this effect the ETC? Will I essentially be nulling out the ETC with these mods? How does CDL work anyway? Thanks. | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Billb Post Number: 1477 Registered: 02-2002 |
http://www.discoweb.org/discovery/basics.htm | ||
| Shane Lesteberg (Snwbord24) New Member Username: Snwbord24 Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2004 |
Thanks Bill. I understand the CDL now, but it seems that my ETC is better. As long as I have traction to at least one wheel I can keep going. If I lose traction on one front and one rear the ETC brakes those and puts it to the wheels with traction. So, I'm not seeing the benefit of the CDL over my stock configuration. | ||
| traveltoad (Traveltoad) Member Username: Traveltoad Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2002 |
Try going backwards down the steep-ass hill that you didn't quite make it all the way up. | ||
| Pugsly (Pugsly) Senior Member Username: Pugsly Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2002 |
it all depends on what you want to do with your truck. ETC 'soft lockers' can work really well in a lot of situations. i find my RR with ETC easier to drive offroad than my Defender with CDL and ARB. but the Defender is my favorite! | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2004 |
ETC sounds great, but in practice it just plain isn't. It works by putting the brakes on the spinning wheel. Brakes and forward progress are not compatible. It works pretty good and is better than nothing but its a far cry from a CDL especially with lockers. Before some ETC lover jumps me over this, I have a Disco I with CDL and a '03 DII with ETC. I'll take the CDL offroad in any condition over the ETC. | ||
| Michael L. Palmieri (Great_pumpkin) New Member Username: Great_pumpkin Post Number: 39 Registered: 01-2004 |
I guess as an owner of an 04, I guess I have the best of both words. While not as capable as front and rear lockers, the combination of CDL and ETC found in 04s is a pretty nice factory setup. | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 617 Registered: 02-2002 |
pugsly, your RR has the VC in the center. yes matt, trying to go fwd, while ETC is hitting the brakes... is indeed DUH! 04 rules. i am starting to think the 03' ETC is better tuned than the previous year ETCs. traveltoad does pretty well with his ETC thing. works real well.... or... he has just the right touch on that gas pedal. Ho Chung | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 260 Registered: 02-2002 |
Several years ago I had a first hand demonstration of 3 systems, ala a dealer sponsored 4wd trip. The hill was relatively steep broken down rock with moguls, hills for those non-skiers. - Stock D90 - locked center diff. No lockers. Took some speed and tire spinning but make it up. You wouldn't want to have been behind the truck. Flying rocks! - Disco II with ETC - no center diff lock. No lockers. Sport mode. Tried several times to make it up. Had to stop and reverse. Each time the rocks would break away ETC would transfer power to another wheel, then the rocks under that wheel would break away and back and forth. Watching the wheels, ETC would brake the wheel without traction in about a 1/4 turn. Finally gave it hell and made the hill with speed. - D90 with CDL locked and lockers - virtually walked it's way up. What I don't like about ETC is the requirement for speed. Sometimes I like to pick my way through a trail, not "give it more power". | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 1439 Registered: 02-2002 |
In situations where diagonal wheels are spinning, ETC will win over CDL easily. Being 'cross-axled' like this happens quite a lot, and hence ETC is pretty good for those who have it. On the other hand, where only one wheel can spin, or one axle can spin (for example as Traveltoad pointed out, reversing down a steep hill with your front axle with little grip), CDL will win out over ETC, by a long way too. So it depends on the situaion and terrain. Having both of them is pretty cool (while they still work, that is  ) Dean | ||
| Justin Sherfy (Jrsherfy) Member Username: Jrsherfy Post Number: 63 Registered: 08-2003 |
Shane, I have an '03. Putting CDL in is at the top of my list of modifications. ETC on our vehicles is a great system. I think it does well. Theoretically, if only one wheel has traction your Disco should be able to move. That's essentially the same concept as having Center, front and rear lockers. If you have all those and only one wheel has traction you should be able to keep moving. So, one could say, ETC is the same as having front, rear and center diff lock engaged. HOWEVER, as Traveltoad mentioned, ETC is not a perfect system. Lockers are something that are tried and true. Plus, what I like about them, is they're entirely mechanical. No computer involvement. That's why CDL is my next modification. If I'm out on the trail and the computer malfunctions I'd like to know I'm not reliant on all wheels having traction all the time, which would be the case if I didn't have CDL. If the ETC went out and one wheel lost traction then I would be stuck. I'm not quite sure why LR doesn't just lose the ETC and put lockers all the way around, as the Land Cruisers have. I haven't been able to talk to an LR engineer about it :-) Someone I was talking to about this subject had a good point, or at least I thought it was a good point. Unfortunately, the primary market of LR is not to the off-roaders. Most people, ie soccer moms, want to be able to stick the key in the ignition and go. The Disco does the work when it uses ETC. With lockers it takes a fairly knowledgeable person to know the appropriate time to engage and use the lockers. If lockers are engaged for daily driving this can cause a great deal of damage to your differentials and your transfer case. Most people don't want to have to be responsible for dealing with using lockers at the appropriate times. Therefore, ETC still makes a car fairly capable off road, but requires no effort for use by the driver. Another way to look at it is that lockers completely isolate each wheel from the other. ETC is just braking a wheel, not completely stopping it. I would rather have the wheels completely isolated and independant of one another. Anyway, that's my 0.02 cents. FWIW JRS | ||
| Jaime Crusellas (Jaime) Member Username: Jaime Post Number: 249 Registered: 05-2003 |
Based on my observations of a good bit of wheeling in mostly mud, water, and sand, a D1 with CDL, a rear detroit and a DII with CDL and ETC are equally capable. I, with my D1, CDL, no lockers, get stuck twice as much. | ||
| Peter J Blatt (Peteb) Senior Member Username: Peteb Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jaime, That gave me a good laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Mabey stuck twice as much as some, But half the times of a defender?!! GO DISCO! | ||
| Randy Maynard (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 763 Registered: 08-2002 |
CDL, ETC and TTs is an excellant answer to the situation. | ||
| robert emmers (Rhemmers) New Member Username: Rhemmers Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2003 |
I've got an '03 with no CDL. But with ETC and TTs front and rear, I've found I can do the things I want to do. I am, however, going to install a swtich to turn the ETC off because there are situations when it does work against you. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 717 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lockers make things easier on the truck and the mechanicals. ETC is harder on the truck and the mechanicals..... Lockers are more predictable , ETC is less predictable. Lockers make obstacles smooth and controlled. ETC is jerky and frantic at times... "Blow me" | ||
| traveltoad (Traveltoad) Member Username: Traveltoad Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2002 |
The biggest problem I have with ETC (I have an '03 without CDL... yet... it's on the way), is that you have to spin wheels. The system only knows to apply brake to a wheel when it spins proportionally more than the other wheels. While used correctly I have found this to be a very capable system (thanks for the compliment Ho!), it definately has faults. Because wheel spin is almost alway involved, I think you are doing more damage to trails and creating more dust. You are tearing up your tires more on rocks. You are putting more strain of the entire driveline in many ways: spinning/catching wheels strain axles and you increase the work and heat of your differentials including the center diff which seems to me is an expensive repair waiting to happen. Also, while I don't panic over the "technology" involved in ETC, there is a lot of additional wear and tear. Your breaks are always being used therefore brake pads, rotors and fluid are always being overheated and used up. My $0.02 as to how to most effectively use the ETC (not that anyone asked)? Light to moderate throttle. I have found that if (when) I start to loose momentum, my instinct is to apply more throttle. With too much throttle, however, the ETC seems less responsive. I don't know if this is by design... I don't even know if it's true. But when I can keep myself from flooring it, keeping the steady light to moderate throttle, the ETC usually "picks" it's way through the traction obsticle. | ||
| Frank Rafka (Mongosd2) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Mongosd2 Post Number: 396 Registered: 02-2003 |
The D2 with just ETC is pretty capable. Engage the center lock and it gets even better. Put some TT's and heavy duty axles in and you've got a really capable truck. Adding TT's doesn't null out the ETC, it actual makes it work less. A Detroit in the rear is harder on the drivetrain than ETC and TT's. If your looking at lockers, it probably means you've put bigger tires on, and that adds to the mix. With bigger tires and the center locked on stock D2 diffs and axles, your asking for trouble. Something will give, either a axle, front CV or a diff. Add to the mix that you'll start eating roro-flex joints in the rear, and your borrowed time with the front drive shaft. Start the list... There's a lot of other things to think about other than just changing the t-case and adding lockers. Drive the thing as stock and see if you really need to add anything. Then look at all the upgrades you'll need to do | ||
| Kelly Fristoe (Kfristoe) Member Username: Kfristoe Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2002 |
I have a 2000 DII. I am in the process of getting Detroit in the rear and True Track up front in the diffs. I found out at about 65,000 that my spider gears in my front diff were beginning to fail. I credit a lot of this to ETC. The more you use it the more it's going to wear out those spider gears. | ||
| Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Koby Post Number: 1070 Registered: 02-2002 |
But Kyle, you don't own a D2, you can't possibly be right!  | ||
| Shane Lesteberg (Snwbord24) New Member Username: Snwbord24 Post Number: 21 Registered: 01-2004 |
I plan on sticking with the stock setup for now. I haven't had any problems with the ETC yet. I do agree with what most have said about it but it works for what I need right now. I have definately found that moderate throttle works the best. I was told about 1500 rpm and that has worked very well for me. Also, I gather that getting lockers won't screw up my ETC system. My main worry was how adding them would affect my stock setup. Thanks for everyone's input. |
