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Norman
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 02:57 pm: | 
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Kyle, I have a question for you. In another thread, you briefly mentioned your opinion on clubs and club events. As I mentioned in that thread, we are always looking to improve both our club and our events for the enjoyment of all the members/participants(yes, I know, you can't please everyone all the time). However, could you elaborate on your opinion of clubs/events? I, as well as other clubs I'm sure, are always looking for ways to improve.
You mentioned that you have based your opinions from experience. What experiences are you refering too? I have been to several events that other clubs put on, some good, some not so good. Organization seems to be a problem with most as are other issues. I would like to know your opinions on this. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 03:39 pm: |
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Carnage:
Every single time I have been around such an event , Carnage abounds. The club recruits new members that dont have any experience and then invites them to events that have too many atendees for them to get the attention/direction that they need not to bash the living shit out of their truck. Half of the time the people that are supposed to be giving them guidance dont know any better themselves... The Clubs just recruit as many as will join and doesnt really have the "Know how" to insure that the new members will leave their first event in a truck taht is exactly the same as it came.
Kyle
more to follow |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 04:22 pm: |
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Compatibility:
As stated earlier the clubs just recruit. Everyone that can pay is brought in and considered a member and therefore able to come to the "Events". BUT , do you really wanna be out in the woods for the day/week end with any Joe Blow at all ? Whats the odds that you will get along with every single person that the club has recruited ? Since those odds are pretty damn low in general out here in real life they drop considerably when stress/strangeness comes into play.
So why even take that chance at all when you can simply get together with a small group of friends that you KNOW you get along with and go have a good time... 
Kyle |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 05:11 pm: |
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Perception and Learning:
The by product of certain aspects mentioned above is that perceptions are born and the "Learning" that follows that is pretty scary. There are perceptions that if you run "X" trail you WILL damage your truck. There are perceptions born that because a certain person was put in front to lead a certain group then that person MUST know what he/she is doing.
These things cause the person thats new to the whole deal to learn in a freakish warped kinda way and the next thing ya know they are mimmicking this person that was leading them that one day (Who may or may not know what the hell they are doing in the first place). This sets the trends that we see even here on the BBS through trip stories and pics . When you put on club "Events" you are having a serious impact on the new people that show up. Think about it for a moment. Some new guy cant get up a hill and another guy says. "Man , you just gotta hammer that bitch like so (Silly bastard nails it and spins and flails his way over an obstacle)to get over that thing". SO , said new guy figures thats how its done and gos forward with that knowledge ,down the road he passes that on to another. Dont tell me its not the "norm" because I have been there and seen it. I have even picked up some of the left over parts in the aftermath...
Kyle
More to come |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 07:42 pm: |
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Adventure: (And the use of the word "Expedition")
Now There are all kinda cheesy stories about peoples thoughts on Land Rovers. Some think about old series trucks and Africa , some think of Defenders in the Antarctic , some think of a pack of Camel Discoveries in the jungle somewhere. I venture to say that no one ever thinks of a line of trucks in a traffic jamb on a dirt road with people running around asking to borrow a tire guage because someone told them to air down (You know the ritual).
To me , adventure is wondering whats on the other side of that mountain and if I am going to run out of gas before I find out , NOT , "Should I run 22PSI or 25??". To me its wondering if I have enough gas in the Jerry cans to get my sorry ass back to asphault , NOT , "How should I arrange these cans on the rack so they look the coolest??".
This can go on and on and those of you that have been to the "Events" know exactly where its aimed so I will leave it there. I think of alot of things when I think of Adventure and Expedition and they are vastly different. The one common denominator however is that they dont involve traffic jambs..
Kyle
NO , I aint done yet... |
Dee
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:27 pm: |
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A very good write up, So i take it your not a joiner? LOL |
Scott MacGregor (Spm)
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:55 pm: |
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I think you are dead on on a lot of your points Kyle but I'm going to toss in my .02. Clubs have a real purpose for some folks. You have been wheeling for a long time by all accounts, but somewhere along the way you were a newbie. My guess is that a family member or friend got you started. Some of us don't have that luxury. Outside of the guys I've met through my club I don't know a single soul who is into off-roading. Not one. My friends and family all think I'm a freak. So how does somebody like me get started? You join a club. Is every ride perfect? No. Is everybody in the club a canidate for being my best friend? No. Do you have to put your personal preference aside in trail choices, pace, day, etc. Yep. But I don't like solo riding so I ride with my club. I had some experiance coming in but I have learned a lot from guys in my club, who are good and are willing to take a moment to pass on some advice. I feel that I am smart enough to tell the good from the bad, not that I can recall one time that somebody told me to do something that I felt was not in my interest. Maybe I'm lucky and I'm a part of a good club.
I haven't been to a major event, but I have two on my calendar for this year. My guess is that many of the negatives from above are double for those events, but I'm not sure that great wheeling is why you attend those events. I'm going so I can run some new stuff, for the fellowship and meeting new folks.
I'd love every time out to be me and a couple of other rigs with guys (or girls) who I really like behind the wheel, but for me it's not reality, if it is for you consider me jealous.
Clubs and events, flaws and all, have a place. At least for some of us. |
Ron Ward (Ronward)
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:15 pm: |
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So you going to SAE and MAR Scott?
Ron Ward |
Will Roeder (Will_Roeder)
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:19 pm: |
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ill be at both |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:25 pm: |
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Scott , you have one hell of a resource right here that can do most of that for you without the "Dues". Without much of the other underlying crap that I havnt gotten to yet either.... BUT , I will......
Kyle |
Scott Copeland
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:49 pm: |
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Virtual Off Roading,novel idea.
Scott |
Will Roeder (Will_Roeder)
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:52 pm: |
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now if your into virtual wheeling, ask Ho, LOL ;) |
Norman
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:46 pm: |
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Kyle, you have valid points on every aspect mentioned thus far. I agree, on most(if not all of them). However, I also agree with Scott MacGregor's post. Here is how I view it. And keep in mind the reason for my starting this thread was to improve our club and our events, other clubs and such can do what they want.
1. "Carnage"- I agree that there is carnage at just about every event I have been to, in some form or fashion. Whether it is the hellion blasting through a rocky section or a beginner being somewhere they shouldn't, or even a good driver who mis-judged a section. It is likely that there will be some type of carnage when you go offroad. Events usually have more, the whole "hey ya'll watch this" type of thing. The more people you get together the more carnage seems to take place. However, I have also been to events where there were 100 trucks or so with no damage to any of them. So, yes, I agree that damage is present at events. But I have also been with very good, responsible drivers who had problems and some stuff broke. So, it could happen whether you are at an event or not. The only thing is that with an event and the number of people involved you will probably see more. Not necessarily because of the event. Say you have 10 people who ride together on a regular basis and within 10 trips 1 truck has some sort of damage. That is 10 trucks damaged within those trips. Now then you have an event where there are 100 trucks, and 10 trucks get damaged in one weekend. It's kind of an odd example, but maybe you get my point.
There's more.... |
Norman
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:57 pm: |
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Point 2. Compatibility-- I whole-heartedly agree with this. I have been stuck with some strange people that I would never want to be stuck with again. That being said, there are usually different groups within each club. You have the "go for it crowd", the "adventure crowd", the "I'm new crowd", the "weird" crowd, and last but not least the "responsible" crowd. When joining a club most(not all)will fall into one of the above categories. In our club for example, you have those that tend get together with others that have the same interest, and you ride/camp with them. Luckily, our club doesn't seem to have a "weird" crowd. We have the others though, and that is fine. Our club members tend to get along really well, which may or may not be the norm. We are lucky I guess.
However, I think that there are times when people need to meet new people in their area to ride with and the clubs give them that chance. For example you mentioned dweb as a source. There are not many people on dweb that live close to my area, there are a couple of our members on this board, but not many. And what about those wanting to learn with others and are new to the 'scene' and don't know about dweb or other BBS(I can't imagine that but let's go with hypotheticals). I can see compatibility as being smart enough to make wise decisions in who you associate with.
more... |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:15 am: |
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Point 3. Learning-- I am glad you brought this up. I have stressed and stressed the importance of proper offroad training. I have seen so many people get bad advice it drives me crazy. From offroading to building a truck. People just never cease to amaze me. Anyway.
I can certainly agree with you on this. I'm in the process now of implementing a regular training day for novice owners throughout the year in our club. We are also lucky in this category, as most of our 'veteran' members are also very good, responsible drivers. We do have a few that are alittle more daring, but we warn new people about them. We have had 'training' weekends in the past and I certainly think that everyone needs a good, knowledgeable instructor to teach them on a regular basis until they are proficient in not only the driving, but how and why everything works the way it does.(this will enable them to not only know how to get through different obstacles, but also teaches them the function of their vehicle and how terrain stresses different components. This will, hopefully, prevent add. wear and breakage)
Speaking of learning. At last year's event there was a group that hung together that didn't really want to take outside advice/help. Together they "knew it all". They had more trouble than most through that entire trail.
Anyway, I agree with the learning aspect. Whether you are in a club or with a small group of friends, anyone driving offroad should learn/research all they can about the topic. The more educated that person is, the better their judgement to NOT "give it some skinny pedal, you'll make it".
Clubs should help those that are new. We have members that have never been offroad before, ever. They don't know anyone that drives offroad and they come to our club to learn more. We try our best to give them good advice and skills to carry them to their next 'adventure'. I agree with you though that a good many clubs don't do this.
more.... |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:20 am: |
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Point 4. Adventure/Expedition-- I know, and yes I agree. Our event is also part of this. However, the event was named that before I became a part. Anyway, I agree with the 'expedition' theory. In my mind, an expedition is not sitting on a trail waiting in line to 'get to the next obstacle'.
And if I was going on an expedition, I wouldn't want 100 trucks going with me either. So, yep, I concur.
next... |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:40 am: |
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Well Kyle, uptil now I think we are making progress. I definitely see yourside. However, I do think that clubs have there place. One of my thoughts on clubs in general is that, it is not always for the offroading or trips that people join clubs. We have several members that could give a rat's ass about the technical end of offroading. They join to hang out with people that have similar interest. We have members for example that enjoy just building the trucks. They would rather work on the engineering part of it, and that is fine (plus they have built some pretty useful items).
We have events throughout the year that have very little offroading involved. We have an event in the spring where one of our members takes a group through offroad forest service routes to natural areas of interest (caves, etc.). He works for the DNR, and gives people a great weekend of getting outdoors.
We also have a British car show we attend as a club each year so those that want to show off their projects can do so (we do however throw a weekend camping/offroading ride into that).
I know the downsides of clubs. And to be honest, there are quite a few other clubs that I wouldn't want to be a member.
But, there are pros to being a member of a club. The thing that people out there have to decide is if the pros outweigh the cons for them.
When Scott and I asked for people to attend our event before making negative comments, we were saying that, in our opinion, our event is 'different' than most out there. We are a laid back crowd and enjoy the camaraderie of Rover owners and offroading. We don't want 'politics' in our club. We do have structure to get things done, however. We pretty much just want everyone to have a good time. Whether that means that our members want to attend the club events or hook up with their own groups to go offroading. Just a thought.... |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:19 am: |
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Kyle, another point I would like to throw in. As you may know, there are people out there that rely upon your knowledge and experience, just as there are people out there that rely on mine. There are people reading this post and take to heart things we say, as I am sure you are aware. Those people may want to join a club and may want to attend events, but due to comments made here they may change their mind without giving clubs or events a chance.
Over the years, I have been to some boring, dis-organized, generally bad events. And if those were my only experiences then I would probably not be where I am. However, I also have been to some well organized, exciting events that I wished lasted longer. Do the good outweigh the bad? Well, let's just say I attend fewer events than I used to. But the events that I do attend are usually very good. The only real issues I have with events are lack of organization, long trail lines, and the politics involved. Some events are better with these things than others. As for carnage on the trails, if I am there and they aren't willing to listen to advice from someone with good experience, then that is there problem.
For example: remember the group I mentioned that ran one of the trails at our event last year. I said they wouldn't take outside advice and had more trouble than any others. here is the scenerio, before the event we ran every trail and classified them as to difficulty level of driver and vehicle. The trail they were on was an intermediate (level 3) trail. We ran that trail with stock trucks (with knowledgeable drivers) prior to and during the event. The group in question were all in trucks with larger tires,lifts, etc. etc. the trucks were more than capable of completing the trail without damage. But due to their 'not wanting advice', two of the eight trucks had damage. go figure.
Anyway, if I was to stop attending events after those 'bad' experiences I wouldn't have met alot of the great people that I have. Nor would I have had some of the great experiences that I have had. I decided to become a part of the club and the events associated with that. My reasoning was not anything more than wanting to improve the experiences had by those that joined or came to our events.
As for clubs looking to increase their membership. I see that alot. And also agree with you that it is not always a good situation. We encourage people to come to a meeting or two, meet our members, come to one of our monthly rides, and check everything out before they join. We don't pressure them. We would like to have new members, but we also want them to be a member under their own reasoning, not ours.
Anyway, more later.... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:54 am: |
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Why are spending so much time trying to convince one person (Kyle) about the benefits of clubs and events. If he doesn't want to attend, let him sit at home by himself. I enjoyed last years SAE and will be there this year.
As for improvements, the directions to some of the trails were a little off (Duncans Place, we ended up in the front yard of a sheriff house with a big German Shepphard barking at us) and the signs marking the trails off the paved roads were easy to miss at night. Other than that every thing was great. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 02:14 am: |
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Interesting debate with solid arguments on both sides.
Club runs make a lot of sense for the guy who does not wheel much and needs a group to go with...or the newbie who needs to get out and thrash around.
All of the points Kyle makes are valid, but they are also part of the learning curve. When people mess up their rig, wait in a line on a dirt road, and do not get along with some of the A-holes, they learn that club runs are not the thing to do.
Then again, there are a few of us here in Utah who coordinated on this board and have been wheeling a few times together and plan many more. We have a blast, are safe, and ride in a small group. I guess we are a "club". We have a name, but no dues and no BS. None of us seem to get into the "club run" mentality.
It takes all kinds
Curtis |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:49 am: |
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Bingo Curtis..... Thats what I mean about using the site. That damn Norm loves to type I see... I shall return...............
Kyle |
Scott MacGregor (Spm)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:26 am: |
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This site can't spot me, tow me, run back to town for parts, etc. That requires a person/truck. If I lived in Salt Lake or some of the other places that seem to be well represented on this board maybe I could use it to find some like minded souls. But, I live in Augusta, Georgia and I'm pretty sure the closest people to me that are on this board are the one who are in my club. |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:45 am: |
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My point is not to convince Kyle of the worthiness of clubs. Nor is it to get him to come to our (or any other)event. My reason for posting was because Kyle had a pretty strong opinion of clubs. I wanted to know the negatives he was so strong about to better improve our club for veterans as well as newcomers. I don't want our club to fall into any of those negatives, and if we are already there I want to improve upon them. --before you can fix (or improve) something you need to know what is wrong--
Kyle seemed to have a strong conviction for what was wrong with clubs so I asked his opinion.
As for the trail signs and directions. If you ended up in the 'sheriffs' front yard, you found the right place. The trail started to the right of the top of the drive and continued through his land. As for directions and signs, we found that to be a problem last year and have fixed that for this year.
Not all clubs are bad, not all events are bad, not all rover websites are bad. For someone (Kyle or anyone else) to make comments that clubs and events suck, is not being fair to those out there that are great clubs and great events. Is our event great? Well, we atleast think it is very damn good. Could we improve our event? There is always room for improvement(hence my asking Kyle's opinion). We know that and every year we try and make those improvements.
There have been negative comments made from people that have never attended our event. But they did attend others and since those sucked, ours must suck, right? Good logic there?@!
I really could care less if Kyle comes to our event. But as I mentioned before, some people take to heart comments made by Kyle and others on this board. For him or anyone to make a 'blanket' statement that clubs/events suck may have a negative influence on those people. If Kyle never goes to another rover event, it won't bother me abit. But he should acknowledge that there are good clubs out there that are beneficial to owners.
For example: Range Rover owners in my area never tend to wave. I don't condemn all Range Rover owners for the actions of those in my area. The same goes for clubs. there are some good and some bad. You may have to 'weed' through the bad to find the good ones. Or I guess I could condemn them all, that would be the easiest thing to do now wouldn't it. |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:03 am: |
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Scott, good point. From my browsing on this website there are roughly 3-4 people that post on this site that are anywhere close to me. And it just so happens that they are club members. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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the problem with the club is the dues.. why must i pay to be your friend and offroad with you?
why can't you use this board to meet people and get together for free and do whatever, maybe opffroad maybe camp or cow tipping in the evening.
point is use this site to network and save yourself the dues. i went to MAR once and it was cool from a classic car show perspective, with all the antique rovers.
lots of goofballs there though, and when you have an open invitation to a rally like that you are going to get some goofballs. so your point that your club is different kind of doesn't make sense for a come-one-come-all type event.
ooh.. unless we want to delve into the eletist debate again, your club's not better than the others is is?? hehe
rd |
Lil bubba
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:28 am: |
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Kyle is entitled to his opinion and if he wants to condemn something, events, clubs or wavers, he has every right in the world to. In fact everyone that comes to Dweb does, of course within reason.
What's the adage, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
One thing to point out, and I know this from my experience and why I do it, is because I like camping. I like going offroading and the last few events I have been to yeah I have stayed with the same group of people, even through we are in a club. I also live in Delaware, don't know if you have ever been here but it's a small state and pretty damn flat. Combination of being with people I like, camping and offroading. There is a mess of BS that comes with events and clubs...but I let it roll of my back. An event can be crappy, but I will still have a good time, so long as there is beer, a camp fire, a homemade shower, some Calypso music and huggy bear. |
gp (Garrett)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:29 am: |
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hey i saw Kyle at ONE event. he was sooooo happy he was clapping his hands like a special needs child. lol. oh that was me all red in the face from Heather i forgot.....sorry.
but take what you can from this site and use it to your benefit. and do the same with your local club. just because you join a local club does not mean that you are limited to those in the club or to their events. like others have and are saying do the things you want to with those you want. that's what we/i do from time to time.
will you be my friend Rob if i give you $10?
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Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:40 am: |
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Well Norm , I hate to come off sounding this way but for the most part. The club events do suck. The problem is that the new people are so new they aren’t even aware that they suck. Remember me talking about perceptions above ? They just figure that’s how things are and ride on. Does your club events suck ? To many , probably not. Would those same people think they sucked if they spent some real time out and about with a small group of knowledgeable people ? I would say definitely….
Now lets go over this phenomenon for a second. By definition the club SHOULD be exactly right for the novice (As you mentioned) , and I agree with that completely. It’s a good place to go and get your feet wet and meet some people without getting too terribly committed . But that’s not the case. As it turns out because of membership and turnout the new guy gets lost in the Ocean of Novice drivers on any given event. Now don’t start telling me about all of the “Veterans” you have there to instruct them at all times because the fact is , people drop out of clubs once they get their own direction. Ya got a few that hang on but most experienced people get tired of it and go back to wheeling with friends. So that leaves you with a club full of novice drivers. The truth is , if the experienced people stayed there still wouldn’t be enough of them to manage things on the trial and assure that everyone got the attention that they needed. I am not bashing the novice drivers in any way shape or form , as you said , “We were all there once”. I just think that (For the most part) what makes a club a good idea is the same thing that makes it a bad idea.
Then we move on to the week end warrior or as we like to call them “BIG DAWGS”. You know the ones I am talking about , they are at every event usually accompanied by some booze (Yes I am stereotyping). There seems to be a strange phenomenon (Ho and I talk about this frequently) amongst clubbers. And that is , the most lifted bashed up raggedy junk is the coolest and the guy driving it simply MUST know what he is doing. Well , I think you can see the problem there already. Most of these trucks havnt been anywhere but club events and they are bashed and thrashed beyond reckognition. Does that make sense to you ? Is that what you want your novice drivers watching and learning from? And if you have the key to this please enlighten us because I am truly lost when it comes to that.
My next installment will be on the “Power trip”
Kyle
No , I still aint done yet |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:44 am: |
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"the problem with the club is the dues.. why must i pay to be your friend and offroad with you? "
Because it costs money to run a club. Having a website, sending out newsletters and flyers, getting insurance and so on cost money. Is it fair to the few volunteers that run a club to stick them with the bill? I think not.
The same goes for DiscoWeb. It might be "free" to use it, and there are no dues, because DW is not a club. But the server the site runs on, the line that connects it to the Internet, the software that runs this bbs and so on did not materialize out of thin air, it had to be purchased. We chose to sell videos and stickers to offset the cost of this instead of having mandatory dues. Nobody is forced to buy anything, either. But if nobody buys anything in the DW store, there won't be any money left to run the site. It's simple economics, both for the clubs and for Discoweb.
There is no free lunch. |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:33 am: |
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Good point Axel. Our dues are $40/year. $20 of that goes to run our club(website, newsletter, events, etc) and the other $20 goes to each persons membership in the SFWDA (which helps keep our trails open and in good condition).
Kyle, as a matter of fact, most of our club are 'veterans'. A good many have travelled throughout the world and bring that experience back to the club. That is my reason for saying that from your postings, our club is different. I am not saying that some of our members are not more 'daring'. As we do have a few who really push things. But for the most part, our members tend to be well knowledged, responsible offroaders. They stay with the club and make it what they want it to be. Instead of just doing their own thing (which is fine as well). Which is another reason why I say ours is different. I am not saying that our club is perfect, because it is not. I am not saying we are better than other clubs either. I am just saying that we are a very diverse group that is just different than alot of the clubs I have known. However, I do agree with you that in general alot of the clubs I have seen have alot of BS involved. Which is why I also said that there are alot of clubs out there that I wouldn't join the ranks of.
Anyway, to each their own. It has been interesting going through this topic. Thanks for letting me rant.
I need to get some stuff done for my club now. Take it easy. |
Jeremy Katka (Jkatka)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:44 am: |
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Norman,
Where do you live that RR owners wave? Maybe its time for me to move to more friendly waters
JK |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:27 pm: |
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Quote:"the problem with the club is the dues.. why must i pay to be your friend and offroad with you? "
Because it costs money to run a club. Having a website, sending out newsletters and flyers, getting
insurance and so on cost money. Is it fair to the few volunteers that run a club to stick them with the bill? I
think not.
choosing to donate because i want to help a website is one thing, being forced to pay dues or you don't belong is another.
i think people most like to be in a club because they perceive it as "cool" and that's fine. i just don't see it that way.
rd |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:39 pm: |
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I disagree. It's up to you to choose if you want to join a club or not, nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to pay the club dues, then don't join the club, or join a club that don't charge dues. They do exist. It's your choice. |
Jason Johnson (Discomojo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:04 pm: |
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Kyle, (this is long I apologize)
I would like to express a few opinions about this topic and your approach to it. First off I respect you and the other founding members of this site for providing one of the best resources for Land Rover enthusiasts in the country- that is fact not ass kissing. Keeping in mind what was mentioned earlier, many consider the opinions on this site to be backed by reason and experience. That commands responsibility in expressing opinions. Second I am a member of ROVERS and ROAV and I participate in club events as well as smaller "group" events. I find both have there share of advantages and disadvantages but I would like to illustrate how a club event encouraged me to participate as an owner in both sponsored and non sponsored events. My first event ever was last year at the MAR and I cannot say enough good things about it from this perspective -I had not off roaded my 3 month old stock '96 Disco before that event and I didn't know anyone at the event prior to going. While riding some trails I met a few people that allowed me to tag along. They coached me through several obstacles and made the event a positive experience for me (no damage). This coaching would never have happened without the club sponsored event. The trails I went on were beginner and intermediate and were challenging (for a beginner) but fun. That is the thing some people forget about on this website sometimes. It's not about how much f'ing gear you buy, the height of your ride, articulation, or even your driving ability that mean the most. It's about having a good time in any Rover, and spreading a positive word about off roading that will encourage people to get some mud on their rides even if they use stock Michelins. I had such a good time at MAR in fact that I bought a second Disco for off roading. An event can be what you make of it - and yes sometimes people set out on courses that are too difficult for them and they take on damage. You cannot lay all of the blame on the club for that. Part of that responsibility is on the club/fellow driver but a good part needs to fall on the driver. Every driver whether on their 1st or 101st should know the trails as best as possible and most importantly know their personal limits. I know if I damage my rig it's not because someone twisted my arm to turn the ignition on and put the thing in drive. I decide what to ride and what not to ride and I accept full responsibility for any damage. You came to our Robesonia event and it has inflicted some damage but I would like to mention that the club makes it clear that all riders should walk each trials course and nobody is forced to drive any of them. With regards to club members, I am always ready to learn from seasoned veterans and I am more than capable of separating good info from bad info. Furthermore as much positive information as I have absorbed from the comments on this board (from yourself and others) I have never seen you invite a group of relatively inexperienced drivers (like myself) to participate in a smaller group run. I would jump at such a chance to watch and/or participate in a ride with experienced drivers. So if you are going to compare clubs to an experience with your group outings then please give people an opportunity to participate. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:11 pm: |
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Jason we occasionally do just that. The sad truth is that I have been too busy to get out myself lately and this year we havnt been out with any of you guys. From time to time we do however invite a few folks out for the day or a week end.... Its never more then a couple of trucks and we take more care with them then we do withour own junk...
Kyle |
Jason Johnson (Discomojo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:27 pm: |
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I appreciate the response, please keep me in mind if something comes up. Incedently has anyone ever stopped to think that with all the traffic Dweb gets this site could be a formidible lobbying tool for more legal off road lands? |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:31 pm: |
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I should add here that a sure fire way of NOT getting invited on a small group run is to bombard Kyle with emails asking when and where the next run is..... - That's a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular.
Lobbying? Who has time for that, I still have my dayjob in addition to keeping this site running. |
Eric N (Grnrvr)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:17 pm: |
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Damn, and I was just setting up a email script to send him one every 6 seconds. |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:34 pm: |
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Jeremy, I said that they don't wave. Hell, half the discos around don't wave. The d90 and series guys/girls wave every time though.
Jason, I agree with your comments. That is one point I have been trying to make. Clubs aren't perfect(what is??) However, most do try and help provide a good time for their members.
Axel, your comments are right on.
Kyle, Jason brought up a topic I mentioned before. Yes you(or anyone for that matter) has the ability to speak their mind and opinions. However, being in a position as you are in, making 'blanket' comments on how bad clubs/events are is not being responsible. From what Axel said, this site is funded through the sale of videos/stickers. That is all well and good. And I am sure you sell quite a few (the site is still here isn't it). However, I would venture to guess that 75% of the active Rover enthusiast are members of some club or atleast participate in going to some clubs' events. That being said, your comments practically condemning clubs puts a bad image into alot of peoples minds. You obviously don't support clubs, atleast through attendance anyway as well as talking bad about them in general. So, why should all the enthusiast out there that are members of clubs support this site? I know you all offer alot of info on this site; a place to post pictures, chat with other owners, tech articles, etc. etc. That is all well and good. But I don't understand from a business standpoint why anyone would talk bad about its patrons or their affiliates. Which is what you are doing by talking bad about clubs. Clubs are not just a name, they are people that get together for a similar interest. A good many of those same people are the ones supporting this site.
Example. There are a few rover parts places out there that do not wish to support clubs or events(they have every right not to). They just want to sell their equipment. However, the people they want to sell to are the same people that they don't feel like supporting.
When someone asks me where to get something, and it is something that can be bought at one of several places, I recommend them buy from companies that support our club (or other clubs for that matter). Those companies that do support clubs will give discounts on some occasions, so it works out fine.
If that person asks me why they shouldn't buy from a particular business. I tell them. They don't support us, so we don't support them. The companies know that, which is one of the reasons why most companies support clubs and the clubs events.
It works good for the companies and us. We give them advertising at our events and send them customers, and they send us a few items every now and again for promotional stuff.
Like it or not, this site is similar to those companies. This site offers an online source for info and such. This site remains going because of the people buying your items.
The point about responsibility that I mentioned is that there are people out there that read your comments and take them to heart. Your negative comments about clubs only bring down the Rover scene. You obviously don't like clubs or events. That is fine, and you have every right to do so. However, you are in a position where people listen to you. That brings responsibility to do and say things that will improve the scene. I know, I know. You think it would be better for everyone to get in little groups and offroad/travel together. That is all well and good. But that will likely never happen on a broad scale. Clubs are going to be here for a long time to come. And events are becoming larger and larger every year. MAR grows every year. Uhwarrie grows each year. Our event grows every year. That means each year more and more people are attending CLUB events. The same events and clubs that you are speaking negatively about.
Look, just do whatever you want to do, you have every right to do just that. Don't go to the events, don't support the clubs. Talk bad about clubs and their events. Make a large movement condemning the clubs. Whatever.
Instead of sitting back speaking badly about clubs/events, I am doing what I can to make them better and more enjoyable for those that find them beneficial.
I would say I would see you on the trail, but that will likely never happen.
So, good luck with everything, and thanks for sharing your opinions. |
Scott Copeland
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:56 pm: |
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Maybe I should sellout here in N Ga & move to where ever Kyle lives and pray for an invite to ride with his group.That must be great being able to learn & associate from the undisputed,all knowing,Yoda of the Land Rover World.But alas,I am just an old Ga boy with no formal education,so I would not fit in or be able to keep up with such an educated bunch.
BTW,Kyle how did you gain so much knowledge about Land Rovers and off roading.Are there any available spots on the waiting list?
Wow,talk about elitist.When I first posted I thought it would be good to meet you,but now maybe it is best that you don't like events.
Scott Copeland
Menlo,Ga. |
kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:02 pm: |
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They should take them to Heart Norm , thats why I say them. If it educates them at all it did what it was intended to do... Does that bother you?
Kyle |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:25 pm: |
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Quote:I disagree. It's up to you to choose if you want to join a club or not, nobody is twisting your arm. If you don't want to pay the club dues, then don't join the club, or join a club that don't charge dues. They do exist. It's your choice.
according to the folks posting here, nobody loves them so if they dont join a club they'll never get to go offroad.
i guess if you want to sit around with a 100 folks and talk rover in person then a club is it. it just wasn't worth the price to me. i even have a beef paying for offroading...
rd |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:29 pm: |
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I think that is being ignored and overlooked on purpose. Its about ten times easier and CHEAPER to just hook up with people from here and go do your thing with people you have a good chance of getting along with. I am sure you will apreciate this take on it so I will throw it out there for ya. lol Why pay them ? I think if I went to a club they should pay me...
Kyle |
Scott Copeland
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:45 pm: |
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You guys are too much.I am done.If any of you guys get to Menlo look me up.No appiontment nessecary.Besides it is killing me looking up all these big words I been using.
Scott |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
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lol,,,will do....
Kyle |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:41 pm: |
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One Question Norm ? Why the need for more members and larger gatherings ? Is this the concensus of the entire club ?
Kyle |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:36 pm: |
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Norman:
What kind of damage are we talking about to the two rigs? I just want to make sure that it's not me that you are talking about!
Thanks,
er, um.. Homer |
Kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:45 pm: |
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Now Now Scott , Norm and I here are having a little chit chat and you gotta start flapping your god damn gums. I said nowhere that me or anyone that I may go out with are the "End all be all". The typing I did above was very accurate. If you need more proof of it just go into the galleries and review. You boys say your club is "Different" and that might be very true. But then again , all clubs would say that very same thing if they were here in this convo instead of ole Norm there. I know what I have seen and I know what gets sent to me in mails. I didnt open my damn mouth about a club until I had seen it first hand more then a few times. As far as being a stuck up prick (Kinda what you elude to) ? Thats the furthest from the truth. But I dont go out into the woods to find people and I cant stand clusterfucks...... But , thats just me....
Kyle |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:55 pm: |
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Anonymous, the damaged vehicles on that ride were First vehicle (RRC) a dented passenger side rear door at the bottom (no sliders, and carelessness). The second vehicle (disco) was damaged on the driver side rear quarter panel. Both vehicles were lifted with the OME springs and running on roughly 31"s. Neither should have had damage on that trail.
Kyle, to answer your question about membership and the event. We have monthly rides that are usually about 10-15 vehicles (which is great, not too many). Our SAE event is our 'large' event every year. We enjoy meeting new owners, seeing their mods, offroading with them, the camaraderie, etc. etc. We really want people to become active whether as a large group or small group. I enjoy our SAE event, it gives me the opportunity to meet people from around the country and see how other people are making mods to their trucks. I know, I could see their trucks online and email them. But it just isn't the same as being able to see their mods working in person. The SAE event gives me (and others)the chance to meet the people, see their trucks work, and talk with them about different things (from trucks to travelling). I wouldn't want to ride each month with 100 people, I often ride with a few close friends, however, I do enjoy going to a large event once or twice a year to meet new people and see different trucks work though.
Our club gives me the chance to meet people in my area with similar interest, my close friends I ride with are club members. I don't pay the membership dues to ride with other owners. I pay the dues to recieve the newsletter (tech articles, etc.), and for the use of the website. Our dues also help support our local trails staying open. Which I don't know how things are up there, but our trails are continually being threatened of closure. So, I don't mind paying a yearly due to help give me somewhere to ride.
As for our monthly rides, again, they are usually 10-15 trucks. A good size group for a weekend run. Not too many, but enough to have fun.
From what our members have told me personally, they enjoy the SAE and like what it has become. However, they also enjoy the smaller monthly rides as well. Having a large gathering once a year is not a bad thing. But I don't think any of us would want to ride with a large group every time we went out.
As for membership, we do not add that many new members a year. We have members that have moved away, etc. so the membership tends to stay fairly constant. We are not out recruiting members. If someone in our area would like to join the club, they are welcome to come check it out. But we do not 'recruit' members. Even if we had 1/4 the members we have, the club would still be fine. Like I mentioned before, (which tends to be contrary from your experiences) our club consists of mostly 'veterans', the same people who started the club years ago are still active. For the most part our members have been offroading for many years and are good, responsible drivers.
Look, I know we could go on and on about this. And I do appreciate your voicing your opinions on this subject that I asked you about. But, we seem to both have different views on the subject (and that is fine). I will use some of the info we have talked about to improve our club, which is why I posted this thread to begin with.
Again, good luck with the Dweb, and have fun on the trails.
Take it easy.... |
kyle
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:07 pm: |
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Norman , I have been talking to some of your members over the last few days and it does apear that you boys have your shit together. Before your boy Scott there got all wound tight I was going to mention that you probably have a better shot at success then we have here near majior metropolitan areas (City folks just dont get it).I say what I say about clubs and events because thats what is most common and I think the info is valuable to those just coming into the sport who might want to avoid it. If you boys dont fit any of that then step in and correct me when ever you feel the need. Dont mistake my directness and honesty for me being a hot headed ass hole. A hard headed asshole maybe but not really a hot head. This is all just shooting the shit.....
Kyle |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:25 pm: |
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Kyle, thanks for the conversation. Have fun on the trails. And if you are ever this way (event or not) let us know.
Good luck. |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:29 pm: |
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Norman:
Kyle has his opinions of the club scene, and he is entitled to it, just like anyone else. A lot of his points are valid ones, but just because he is vocal about them does not mean that DiscoWeb is anti clubs. For example, the Event section on the bbs is there so that clubs or others can advertise their events free of charge. It is an inexpensive way for you to get the word out to a lot of people at no cost. We have also given away videos to be raffled off at club events in the past, and see no reason why we can't do that again.
As for how many videos we have sold, the site is still here, as you said. But DW is still a shoestring operation. Kyle, Ho and I all have regular jobs, and have laid out a considerable amount of our personal funds, which we don't expect to recoup. The videos and stickers just make it a little easier. Why do we do it? Because we love our Land Rovers, and DiscoWeb is fun.
My take on the club scene is this: There are some well run clubs out there, and some not so well run. Clubs do serve a purpose. Joining a club is a good way of meeting people with similar interests, to form relationships and so on. Those smaller groups Kyle and many others (including myself) prefer, often originate out of clubs.
Managing expectations is also important when going to a club event, especially a large one. A large club event is usually more a social event than a hardcore offroad event. It is not realistic for someone going to a large club event with 200+ trucks attending to expect to have small groups of 8 to 10 trucks head out on separate trails every 15 minutes with a spotter for every two trucks. There simply aren't enough qualified volunteers (as you are well aware of, I'm sure). I am speaking from experience here, I was leading runs all day on both Roverfests. I was also involved with running the now defunct New York Land Rover Club, so I have a pretty good idea of the work involved in running a club and organizing events. It is a lot of work, and a pain in the ass sometimes, and I have a lot of respect for those of you who still are willing to spend your own free time on doing it.
I am still a member of both WCRC and ROVERS, I don't go to many of the events anymore, but I still pay my membership dues to support those clubs, as I think they are among the better run ones. I have never been to your clubs events, so I have no basis to have an opinion on it.
Axel |
Norman
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:38 pm: |
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Kyle, one more thing. You mentioned that you have talked with afew of our members over the past few days. Curious as to who they were considering I have only seen a few members post here. I know Will R., Scott C., Ron W., and I doubt very seriously you were speaking with Scott. (ha, ha)
Just curious. |
Norman
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:35 am: |
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Axel, I know how you feel about the effort involved. I joined SOLAROS to meet people with similar interest. After joining I wanted to help with the club. I was the event director for the SAE for 2000 and 2001. It was alot of work (especially since I like to do things myself to make sure they are done). I turned it over to acouple of people for this year. This past winter I was nominated for Pres., after thinking long about this, I decided to step up and do my part to continue improving the club. We implemented alot of new things this year. For instance, the first meeting this year, I asked everyone to write down things/events that they wanted the club to do. I then worked with our event coordinator to try and get everything in for the upcoming year. For instance, we now have 2 events/rides a month. One for the more knowledgeable/experienced and one for the more beginner (with experienced riders for support).
As well as just camping weekends, shooting events, and tech days at someones place.
I stand by my comments on the negative comments about clubs. I know Kyle has every right to speak his mind. And I know that he doesn't speak for Dweb. However, he is a part of this site regardless and for one to speak negatively reflects on the whole.
That goes back to the whole responsibility thing to those that are in certain positions. I don't have hard feelings for Kyle for voicing his opinion, I just think it is in bad taste concerning the overall picture.
As for our event and the number of attendees. Like I mentioned, our event is alittle different than others. For instance we have quite a good bit of land and trails to ride. Last year, I not once saw more than 10 trucks on any one trail. Except for one of the scenic novice rides (not challenging but a forest service road around the Little River Canyon), led by several experienced club members. Also, we don't schedule rides for the intermediate and 'hardcore'. They are free to get in groups and head to different trails whenever they want (hence, not really more than 10 in a group). But we do have members at the locations for additional support for those that get in over their head. Also, our event has 4 different offroading locations, encompassing over 2500 acres. This allows everyone to not be bunched up together. And no, I'm not kidding about not seeing more than 10 trucks at any one trail. Each of the 4 locations has several trails of varying difficulty. Example: two of the locations have several seperate hardcore, intermediate, and novice trails. That allows every group that goes out to bypass trails where others are at, then come back to those later. The groups spread out great. Also, the only time a participant at our SAE will be around alot of people is on Sat. night at the supper,raffle, and auction. The camping area covers several acres and no participant is really close to anyone if they don't want to be. Actually, other than at the campsite, I really didn't see that many people. In fact, if I hadn't done the registration, I wouldn't have thought we had 1/2 (hell, 1/3) as many people there as we did. That and the fact we served all of our food that was for over 250 persons.
I know about long lines and lack of experience from 'trail leaders'. I was at a another club's event a bit north of Georgia two years ago. Our trail leader(they had organized rides)was no where near as knowledgeable as he should have been. In fact, he told us we might want to turn around on one trail because of the rain/mud. We told him and the others in our group that we were finishing the trail and that those that wanted to go with us could, and that we would help them, which we did. We did not offend him in our words concerning this, but he knew he was in over his head, which he was. We finished that trail and completed several more, we got everyone through without any damage.
As for the experience of our members and us helping out novice owners. We have a few members that have been formal instructors, including myself (if you are ever down this way, ask me to tell you about the Porsche event, ha,ha). Even those that haven't done formal instructing but have experience are more than willing to help anyone through a trail. That is another reason why I say our club is obviously different.
Anyway, I applaud you guys for this site. It does have alot of useful info and I know it requires work and money. Kyle just has interesting way of looking at things, which is fine. However, I do think making the 'blanket' statements regarding clubs on his part was in bad taste. But to each there own. (Kyle, no hard feelings, we just have different views. But isn't that part of what this country is about?) |
Ron
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:20 am: |
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Clubs are for baby seals. have not heard that one yet
Pokerob, you join a club I can gaurantee you that you will save your dues back the first year. Someone will either give something to you you need they don't or sell you something cheap or tell you where to find something cheap or they will save you time helping you or telling you the fix for something. Happens without fail.
ROVERS main cost is the newsletter. Postage and printing. Some insurance money to facilite events on private land and there is the budget. Could we do it cheaper and just post in on the internet? Yes but it is not as effective and somehow I don't think it will get done as much.
I think that you get more out of a club than the $25 a year or whatever it is.
And the most important rule at a ROVERS event. Do not drive like Ron!
Ron |
Scott Copeland
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:57 am: |
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i just luv being norman boy.sometime he come by the room where i stay.sometime he call me.sometime he giv me mony.someday he mite let me ride wit him.he say he gone a take shock collar off soon.I tol my mama i gon move to where kyle live so i can be his boy.kyle smart.he writ lot of big word.
Scott |
Neal Glessner (Nealg)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:00 am: |
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WTF? |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:56 am: |
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Ditto..
And yes Ron , Clubs are for baby seals....Hmm , and Anons....
Kyle |
gp (Garrett)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:07 am: |
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yes clubs are good. we can go to events and point at Ron and say, "now don't do that." or "don't take the line he does." saves me tons of cash on windows, etc.
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KJ
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:27 am: |
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LOL, gp. Now, that was just plain wrong and you know it!
Karen |
gp (Garrett)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:41 am: |
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i kid because i love. haha
he is fun to watch that is for sure. and i am sure my day is coming. just hopefully i will not have a crowd around.
 |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
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how is that you can guarantee that ron? will you pay me back if no else does?
hell i tend to be the guy giving shit away...
rd
garrett, if you're serious about paying to be my friend i dont object. |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:45 pm: |
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ummm....I'm still waiting to hear your take on the "power trip" phenomenon...LOL |
KJ
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Awwwwwwww.....poor little tree.....
Karen |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 04:35 pm: |
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Can attest that he (rd) gives help when needed. Not sure of other shit though it wouldn't surprise me.
Jaime |
Kyle
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 04:37 pm: |
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Gotta watch RD's spotting and Navagating skills though.... he will get you all jacked up....
Kyle |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:05 pm: |
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Must admit the first time we did ride together the side steps of the 109 did become almost toast to a rock, course, with dogs running, wife looking, Rob adding, and the damn trail end now closed, nothing new to PA Rovering. We did get kinda messed up location wize, yet, that was my fault as it is my "backyard". Still, sorta shows riding with folks met on this site sight unseen is pretty cool.
Jaime |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:58 pm: |
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jamie , they almost hit... but they didn't, hehe. honestly think you could have made it thru that unscathed.
and kyle you take all that back or is spill the beans to how stock your truck really is
rd |
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