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Author Message   Ross Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 11:55 pm:    Okay, I'm looking online for an "North Face Jacket" and I don't want to contribute to the REI coffers. Anyone know of a site to find reasonable prices on North Face clothing? Thanks in advance...Freezing in Oklahoma... Ross 97 Disco   Jeff Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:07 am:    www.campmor.com bass pro shops?   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:23 am:    North Face is junk you want a mountain hardwear I promise...they have better warranty than the north face..www.mgear.com   Groovy Dude Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:49 am:    Yea MOUNTAIN HARDWARE is much better than North Face. I just bought a new Mountain Hardware tent for hikeing. I got the Trinity and it rocks. Seems better built than alot of the North Face Tents i`ve seen. This also goes for there clothing line. Yea North Face stuffs trendy and the in thing but if ya want it to last and work 100% go Mountain Hardware. You will also spend more $$ buying North Face. Also check out Marmot gear as well. Marmot has alot of quality stuff. But if your bent on North Face try http://www.thesierratradingpost.com Don't get me wrong North Face is ok but I hate to see someone spend more $$ then they have to on something.   JRoc Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 01:00 am:    Not a big fan of North Face either. There quality control has gone down tremendously in the past few years. They used to make hardcore stuff, but since they've become soooo fashionable they had to increase production. This is not just my opinion but I've spoken to alot of people who feel this way. I bought a Jacket by them and had to return it a few weeks later because the seam was coming apart. I hadn't even worn it for anything other than going to the store! I was really disappointed! Anyway, Not here to bash them. They still put out alot of quality products. Especially items that can't be worn for fashion. But as Mr. Perkinson stated there are alot of other company's out there making really hardcore stuff. Depending on what sort of jacket you're looking for I could recommend a few different company's. However, if your heart is set on North Face then there are a few places that have good prices on em. MGear, and Campmor are good. Also, depending on what part of the country your in, there is a Outlet store in N.Y. It's located in Monroe N.Y. right off of the New York Thruway (exit 16). The place is called Woodbury Commons, and they have a pretty good supply usually. On the weekends it's usually pretty packed. The homeboys love going to this place and stocking up on North Face, Timberland, and Tommy Hilfiger. But during the week is usually much more enjoyable. As far as Web shopping goes you could try a search on MySimon.com. Also check out rockcreekoutfitters.com, & mgear.com Good Luck, and if you decide to go to Woodbury Commons they also have a Patagonia Outlet there. Mountain Hardwear is great stuff! So is Marmot, Arc'teryx, Lowe Alpine, etc.   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 01:04 am:    Mountain HW is the best...if you are a rover finatic you need to have a Barbour...I have one of those too awesome coats..I like Mountain Hrdwears warranty folks they are awesome and stand behinf thier stuff...THF is so trendy whatever floats your boat I guess Lowe makes quality stuff also.. I recomend Moutain Hardwear.. but since you drive a british truck you need a British Coat   JMcD Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 09:45 am:    eastern Mountain Sports, www.ems.com has northface gear.. it is not bad stuff, I have a bag that has held up real well in some tough conditions.. EMS has very good prices and a great web-site!!!! Good luck, JMcD   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    i feel the same way about The North Face gear... quality is way donw, it's made for pennies on the dollar and they charge too much. i have some Mountain Hardwear stuff and it's great. manily i wear marmot though,,, i never chose to,, it ust seemed they always have the right thing for my taste. i recently got a jacket from sierra designs. and was delighted at the quality. it was on sale for $80 from 299 on seirratradingpost.com cant live without that site. also i like rei-outlet and REI i still dont see the conflict of interest. 10% off from rei when you use the code : dvd2k rd   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:47 pm:    Barbour the best British clothing for the worst British weather   michel Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 12:50 pm:    He rob, that link is a bit ... off. Michel   Anonymous Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    Pokerob wrote: i still dont see the conflict of interest. How can you not? REI supports the Sierra Club. The Sierra Club closes 4x4 trails. It's black and white!   Ron Ward (Ronward) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 02:13 pm:    North Face was purchased by Vanity Fair back in 1997 or 98 I think. The emphasis is on fashion not function now. Patagonia and Mountain Hardware are the only choices out there for serious gear. Ron Ward   gp (Garrett) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 02:46 pm:    have to agree with most of you. not a huge fan of the north face stuff. have an older lunar light of theirs and that is about it. most everything else is mountain hardwear. love this stuff. wear it everyday and everywhere........skiing, hiking, etc. NF does not really compare to MH in my opinion. there are lots of other good companies out there too......not just MH, but i don't see much of a reason to buy NF. well unless it is 50% off or something. REI i dig too. very competitive and quality is up there with some of the best. as for them supporting the sierra club.......not an issue with me. like rob said before......if it comes to either chosing between 4X4ing and keeping our state/park lands open to the public for hiking........i can do without 4X4 trails. i belong to the sierra club. there are more important things to me then taking my truck off on some trails. i don't support them 100% by any means, but enough to support some of the things that are important to me.   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 03:15 pm:    Barbour if you wanna be authentic   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 04:01 pm:    I've got TNF stuff, 2 packs and 2 jackets, but all of it has some age on it... One jacket's about 10 years old, the newer daypack is about 6 years old. I wouldn't give any of it up.... it's great gear. Their tents were okay, but I went with Moss instead, with NO regrets. But, I haven't seen anything from TNF that I would want to buy now. They've been mucking about in skiwear and casual travel clothing, instead of sticking to their original bread-n-butter serious outdoor gear. When MH first came out, I really liked it... it was a bunch from TNF that started it. But, they ended up having a little bit of growing pains, and suffered from both some poor QC, and some 'almost right but not quite' designs.... they'd have a lot of really neat features, but it wouldn't fit right, or it's give up something simple and proven for something innovative, but not yet working well. But, I think they've finally gotten past those problems now.... I'd look at MH first, anymore. Mi dos centavos, FWIW.... YMMV.... -L   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    Barbour   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 04:32 pm:    If you need a jacket for around town, yeah, Barbour is fine. But it's too heavy to take backpacking.... IMHO... -L   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 04:35 pm:    ok so this is about Backpacking...yes Mountain Hardwear   Brad Russell (Bradnc) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 04:41 pm:    I just bought a new north face mountain light because i have a zip-in fliece and lost my last shell. I bought mine off of E-Bay and i paid only $162.50 for a brand new 2002 model that includes the warranty. Just wait for a week or two and you'll find one for a good price. The one's without pictures often go for less, just e-mail the seller and make sure that it's in perfect shape/new/etc. Brad   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 05:50 pm:    www.sierrratradingpost.com hows that michel? i admit to just having returned from eastermountsports and buying a pair on TNF pants.. what can i say. i liked them, alot. same as what garrett said about REI. the only reason the sierra club is getting so radical is that they keep loosing reasonble members instead of those members sticking around and giving there opinion. rd   Groovy Dude Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 08:56 pm:    I have to agree with Garrett. I Live in Maryland and do most of my off roading and camping in the Green Ridge Mountains. Over the past 15 years i`ve seen ALOT of Green Ridge closed off to off road vehicals due to to many ignoreing the tread lightly rules and their rules. There used to be a creek crossing just behind the Ranger Station there. But because so many where driveing there trucks UP 15 mile creek and destroying the creek bed and disrupting the eco system there, they have closed off that road way. Now to use the camp sites on that side of the ridge you have to do a 18 mile loop. Other places where also closed to off road traffic as well, like the Train Tunnel and a few roads. So I see no problem in supporting REI and Serria Club. I also don't agree in their ways 100% but i`d rather have a wonderful place to hike and camp even if it means closeing down areas due to off road abuse. I Practice Tread Lightly and Leave No Trace when off roading, hikeing and camping. No i`m no tree hugger but I do beleive in keeping our state forests and parks clean for our children and others.   hippie tree hugger Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 09:01 pm:    I think that we should take care of our earth   michel Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 12:43 am:    Buy focusing on the little things like 4x4 trails and the "extensive" damage they do to the ecosystem, focus is removed from the real damage done. Of course in the states, not much is left anyway, but realy what's worse, driving down an old loging trail, or clearing a whole mountain for skiers, or a golf course, not to mention the industrial impact of mining, logging, development etc, etc. It's all about cash not much more. Michel   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:21 am:    that's why i want to become a self sustainable hermit like you michel. i'm more into preservation , thats all. rd   Anonymous Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:01 am:    TNF has become a big dissappoinment. They started crapping out when all their designers left to start Mountain Hardwear. TNF was on the verge of bankruptcy until VF purchased them 2 years ago (VF brings you Lee jeans and Jansport backpacks). Arc Teryx, Marmot and Moutain Hardwear are really the only way to go if you want durability and performance. And if you're interested in getting something with down insulation your search should stop at Marmot. Of course, if you need a backpack to go to the library, TNF will sell you the IDEA of Himalayas and Karkoram Mountain ranges... but give you Jansport quality and design.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:17 am:    Down, eh? Don't do any whitewater kayaking, do ya? Or, camping is the wet? Down's ideal, if you're gonna be where it's to cold for the snow to melt. Or, if you're gonna be in a cold desert, or are really careful/good/lucky at keeping your gear dry and need to really shave ounces. Otherwise, I'd stick w/ synthetic. Osprey makes some sweet packs.... a buddy got one a few months ago, and I was impressed w/ it... A lot like a Gregory, well made, but they (Gregory) just didn't fit me well. FWIW.... -L   gp (Garrett) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:30 am:    i like those big puffy NF down jackets!! hehe. especially on days when its 50 out. Mountainsmith makes some nice packs. i've been eyeing those up. gregorys are really nice too. hell.....there are lots of nice ones. that's the probelem.   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 12:46 pm:    Mountain smith is junk gregory is good as well is Dana designs   gp (Garrett) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 01:03 pm:    damn that was harsh. now i am confused. wish mountain hardwear made packs. then i would not be confused. no not that kinda confused rob!!!   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 01:08 pm:    I wouldn't have put it so bad, but.... I liked the look of Mountainsmith, too, but everyone I found that had one griped about it. Not first-hand by me, but a good friend of mine was going to give his away, but wouldn't give it to me because he didn't want me mad at him, lol... That's pretty bad.... Check out Osprey.... http://www.ospreypacks.com/ FWIW... -L   Anonymous Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    True, down only works when its loft hasn't been compromised by moisture. I'm not sure how the geese manage to pull it off. Nothing beats down in terms of warmth to weight, compressability and all around coziness. There are some shell materials that help keep down dry (eg gore DryLoft). The last TNF item I bought was their a Summit Down Jacket. It was dirt cheap (otherwise I would've gone with Marmot). It came as no surprise when the zipper on the thing broke. On closer inspection I realized the zipper on my wife's cosmetic bag was probably more durable. Fortunately I wasn't somewhere where a broken zipper on a jacket is the difference between life and death. TNF is not only shoddy, it can be downright dangerous (pun intended).   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 01:34 pm:    Geese and other waterfowl have outer feathers that are oiled through constant preening. By keeping the outer feathers oiled and arranged, they can keep the inner ones dry. Kinda neat... -L   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 03:30 pm:    I think the earth will "take care of" us lowe alpine patagonia ancient north face (if you can find it) and gramicci too - great stuff - room for all your important parts to move & breathe... best bet is to go with the little guy who really gives a shit if his stuff will last - screw the sell-outs - vanity fair & north face? WTF is that all about? everyone knows that you'll break a nail climbing a mtn - I need to know if YELLOW is still in high-fashion before I buy anything, better read vanity fair...what a joke   Anonymous Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 04:49 pm:    Vanity Fair... LOL... No. VF Corp. They describe themselves as "...the world's largest apparel company. For 102 years, we've grown by offering consumers high quality, high value branded apparel in jeanswear, intimate apparel, knitwear and specialty apparel span virtually every channel of distribution." They do this to the tune of 5 billion dollars annually. That's alot of Gitano/Lee jeans, Maidenform Bras, Eastpack/Jansport backpacks and TNF garbage. On a high note, they're stock is a pretty solid performer.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:01 pm:    that sure as hell makes more sense than "vanity Fair" LOL still, stick with the little guy...   Groovy Dude Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:10 pm:    I own a OSPREY Aether 60 Back Pack. I must say its well built and is light weight for its size compared to others. Its super comfortable and has a nice fit. The hip straps do there job well and divert the pack load to you hips with out you feeling it. I`m sure there clothing line is as well made. Now my wife owns a Gregory Reality back pack and she just loves it. Gregory also makes a nice clothing line. You may want to look at thier stuff.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:37 pm:    I still use the same lowe alpine internal frame pack that I bought in 1986. Investment of $16/year and it will never die.   JRoc Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:00 am:    I bought a Mountainsmith pack after being warned that they also "sold out" and were being made cheap nowadays. It does suck and I need to unload this POS on e-bay. It's an Internal Frame Pack and I couldn't even begin to tell you all the things I hate about it! Then bought a Lowe Alpine and love it! Smaller Day pack so can't really compare, but WOW! I also own a Down Marmot Jacket that I would live in! Worked a job where we were outside all day in sub 0 degree temps for average of 14 hrs/day. Everyone was cold!!! Me and a few others had bought Marmot Down Jackets. Forgot the model name I bought, but the others bought the next model up called the 8000 M Parka and 8000 M Pants. We were less cold than others but cold none the less. After a few hours you get used to it! TNF uses cheaper everything! Especially craftmanship!!! Not uncommon for the seams to come undone or the ripstop nylon to rip! Down vs Synthetic? I'm old school here. I've heard all the techno garbage about how synthetics warmth to weight ratio is better than down in wet/damp situations. Usually this advice is given by some dude who's never been outside freezing his ass off! I try and keep up with the new technology and fabrics but this one's got a ways to go!!! To me the choice is either a) use down and be warm unless you get it wet b) be cold no matter what conditions you're in! NO BRAINER Just my opinion, I could be wrong PS I DO own a synthetic jacket that I've used in cold weather and was quite disappointed! I'd rather use down and be really careful.   Hank Shank (Disco_Tex) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 03:16 am:    Most waterfowl hunters here in Texas wear down jackets with an outer rain shell or a parka system which is almost the same thing. But what the hell would I know about jackets, we hunted in short sleeves half the "winter"!   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 08:46 am:    While I was one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, I spent many a night in a lightweight sleeping bag under a poncho in a downpour after hours of patrolling, with hours more to go as soon as we got up. I'll not blow smoke and say that synthetics have a chance of keeping you warmer with less weight than down... that's just not realistic. But you've got to keep down dry. That's the bottom line. I, personally, do too much where I and my gear quite often are being deployed in wet conditions... either after being on the river, or a winter rain, or a summer rain if I'm lucky, etc. etc. Usually I manage to keep most of my gear dry, so that I'm not miserable. But there've been enough times that oops! my sleeping bag's wet, or at least damp, and I'm still okay... If you're in powdery snow, down can't be beat. But if you're doing like me, sweating your butt off out there, then down just isn't as wise a move. Usually, I keep a selection of jackets in the Rover... a shell, a synthetic liner, and a chore coat. It'd be a good idea to throw a down jacket in there too, if I was further north, or way west into the mountains. In the southern Appalachians, though, down is overkill IMHO. Alaska, it'd be a lifesaver... U.P. of Michigan, sure. High Colorado, fine. But in eastern TN or western NC? Usually we get rain instead of snow. Usually it's just not THAT cold. Yes, we do get snow, we do have cold snaps, but they're not a constant. When I'm outside, I'm being active, not just standing around watching the thermometer... So, why should I spend the extra money on down? Just use your head, and think about what you're use is, and what suits YOUR needs for YOUR situation..... -L   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 12:50 pm:    Leslie- I have to agree with you that you must have appropriate clothes to suit your environment. Down is simply not good in cold torrential downpours. It also explains why you never see commercial fishermen wearing down. They're into wool and goretex. That being said, putting on a fleece and getting into a polarguard sleeping bag just can't compete with nature's perfectly designed insulator. Primaloft, Polarguard, Thinsulate are the Toys, Nissans, and Cheaps while Rovers are 800 fill European Goosedown. (This is DWEB right?)   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 12:58 pm:    LOL.... If the only place you ever "rough it" is at Wimbledon or Churchill Downs, i.e "RR-web", then yes, sure. But if you play hard at Tellico and pitch tent in a downpour at night instead of booking it to the nearest bed-n-breakfast, ie. "D-web", then synthetic is fine. Heh heh.... Use both! -L   Jeremy Katka (Jkatka) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:13 pm:    A good manufacture of down jackets, bags, and bedding is feathered friends http://featheredfriends.com/ they grew up in the shadow of REI here in Seattle. I can't speak to the politics of the owner (never asked,) but they do have a lifetime guarantee against defects in workmanship or materials. A few of my freinds swear by their products and their mom and pop feel. Jeremy Katka   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:29 pm:    Wimbledon? My heavens, no... there's so much riff raff to contend with at Centere Court, it was almost as bad as the Concorde line at Heathrow. Curchill Downs? Not on your life. Do you know I saw at least sixty people wearing white well into the Fall racing season. I almost fainted from the shock. Synthetics are for the help, my dear boy. I only wear worsted wool from saville row and only the finest minks and foxes for the wife. Cheers, Ol'boy.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:30 pm:    Exactly. ROTFLMAO.... -L   Zinhead Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:41 pm:    I think you guys are bashing TNF too much. Sure, they expanded thier brand to include non-mountainineering goods, but so have alot of other firms like Sierra Designs, Marmot and MH. If you read Backpacker's gear reviews, TNF tend to do OK in thier comparison tests. Besides, due to TNF's massive overproduction, you can always find thier stuff on super sale at the end of the season at sierratradingpost, rei-outlet and other retailers. Just my 2 cents.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:50 pm:    IF you're looking for some comfortable casual clothing, TNF is fine. And, as I said, I won't trade my TNF gear for anything... the stuff's tough, and goes with me anywhere. But, I'm not at all impressed by their current wares. Instead of staying good at making outdoor gear, they're more interested in selling lots of mediocre gear these days. For 80% of the buyers, it's good enough. As a company, they're happy w/ that, because they're making lots of money. Making a better product costs more, and will only be bought by a much smaller percentage of customers. You can't fault them for catering to a bigger market if that's what they want to do. But, if you want better quality, go to a smaller company that hasn't gone too big yet. IMHO, YMMV, yada yada yada.... -L   JRoc Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 01:56 pm:    Hey Jeremy, Thanx for the info, looks like quality stuff. Hey Leslie, Thanx for serving and protecting the freedom we all love! I'd also like to add one should dress for the environment in case of emergency. Even though you expect to be in your Disco cruising around, with the heat and heated seats on, you must be prepared if the truck decides to take a unapproved break. I've heard of, and seen, people get themselves into situations of extreme danger, due to the vehicle breaking down and not being dressed warm enough. I carry a down jacket (stuffs really small) and thick wool blanket in my vehicle during the cold months. Doesn't take up that much room and is oh so nice if you need it. If considering down insulated gear, might want to invest in dry bag as well. Be prepared, Be safe. Good Luck. With all due respect Leslie, the person who started this post signed it "Freezing in Oklahoma." Cold was definately a factor for him! I didn't want Ross to be talked into Synthetics without hearing a alternate opinion. Thanks again   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 02:01 pm:    True true.... But, most TNF jackets are just shells, and you have to by the lining (be it synthetic or Down) separately. And, he'll warm up when he has to walk when his Disco leaves him on the side of the road some night.... VERY good point about being prepared... that's why I usually leave a jacket or two in the Rover on top of whatever I'm wearing. Along w/ all the other gedunk back there, too... lol.... -L   Brian H Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2002 - 02:10 pm:    I don't know if it's been covered yet, but there are TNF outlets all over. I got a bunch of stuff for very cheap while they were having an addtional 50% off sale. For the price it's was well worth it. Brian   SOLO Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 08:34 pm:    I once owned a down coat and a down vest. Both leaked feathers from the seams, it drove me nuts. I wore the coat during a really wet snow storm and it became totaly soaked, although I was warm I smelled like a wet dog and it took a long time to dry it. A few years ago I switched to Gortex and Synthetics and I've been warm and dry since. Synthetics are the way to go. IMHO. Eastern Mountian Sports and Campmore are the best. So where does everyone hike, ski, fish, backpack? Larry   michel Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2002 - 11:21 pm:    ummm, down wasent' made for warm weather gear. when i go to northern canada/artic down is hard to beat. Just don't get the cheap ass shit, you need the real shit, a canada goose type of thing with proper shells tough as nails and water resistant for a parka, or down under a good waterproof/windproof shell. All gear as a place, down don't belong anywere in the lower states. Last year on the james bay trip, I had synthetics only (columbia tinanium) with proper layers underneath and all was good, at -45C on skidoos (unheated ones) for a full day. My wife had the same plus a down sweater as an extra layer, cause she's a skinny thing and was good and warm all day. I even went camping outdoors in a tent after that day but thats another story, I would of killed fo r by buddies down sleeping bags....synthetic sucks bad when not active. michel   steveII Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 01:45 am:    ross i got lucky and found a NIW circa 1995 TNF coat with liner at a gun show in phoenix for $100. thought i did alright with that one. also came across this enormous (sp?) puffy o.d. green down coat at ross (dress for less, not your house!) for $50. speaking of being an armed boyscout - try spending a few days out at pendleton in near freezing rain in the old m65 coat with that green padded liner, steel helmet and a stinky poncho...eating "pork slices in juices" cold (with water pouring in off the helmet and down your back). yep the good old days, when men were men and sheep were fast... oh did i mention the mud and the all leather boots (that never really dried out) with chevron soles that didn't grip???? ...then there were the cotton pup tents and those lovely down filled mummy sleeping bags. - everything had that smell... sigh.... new guys have it easy with the gortex coats and pants, self heating mre's, nylon upper boots. though the rucks NEVER seem to get any lighter?!? steveII ps may all of our best come home safely and soon.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 10:30 am:    are they still using that steel framed alice pack? what a joke that thing is... rd   JRoc Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:33 pm:    They're in the process of changing over to a new system now. The ALICE system (All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment)is being replaced with the MOLLE system. MOLLE system (MOdular Lightweight Load-carrying Equipment) is the new pack. Much lighter and the load is more evenly spread out. The MOLLE uses a vest(LBV-88) to distribute the weight as opposed to the suspenders(LC-2) of the ALICE system. Among other improvements are, a pouch system that allows the wearer to attach pouches via quick release fittings that can be dropped with a single quick movement, and a built in hydration system with a 2 quart bladder that can be accessed, even on the move, via a small hose. The Special Forces currently use this system and the Marines will be using this system next, with the Army to follow soon there after. Things are definitely changing, but it's still no picnic! God Bless the U.S.A.   Zinhead Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 09:38 am:    For those who like Marmot, try http://www.marmotmountain.com They seem to have alot of selection with some good specials mixed in.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 10:34 am:    damn, i like that vest idea... thanks for the marmot link my north face paramount convertable pants came in.. these things kick ass. seems north face can still make some good stuff. later rob