| Author |
Message |
    
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 01:36 pm: | 
|
Hi All:
I have a 92 RRC with ABS, OME HD springs and 235/85 tires, rest is stock. I am thinking about carrying used spare 10 spline axles in case of breakage, as I cannot afford to convert to 24 spline axles and diffs. My question is:
1. Do I really need to carry any spare axles? I am pretty careful on the trail, but like to occasionally test the rover on steep rocky climbs.
2. If I do break an axle, can I just remove the broken one and drive out in 2WD and how do you remove the broken axle?
3. If I do carry spares, which ones are the most prone to breaking?
4. How hard is it to remove and replace axles on the trail, any special tools, tricks, tips?
Sorry for the multiple questions, but I am just trying to weigh the need to carry spare axles as denaro around here is a little tight these days.
Thanks. |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:02 pm: |
|
What size tires are you running?
How long have you been off-roading?
I like to carry lots and lots of spare parts. I've replaced axles on Jeeps and two D90s and it was fairly easy. Make sure to bring a container or a thick plastic bag to catch the diff oil that might leak out when replacing an axle. A hub nut tool is probably something you would want to buy.
I think it's a great idea that you carry and extra axle or two with you out on the trail. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:27 pm: |
|
Hi John,
I am running 235/85/16 tires, which are approximately 32" in diameter. I have owned LR's in various models for years along with jeeps, broncos, blazers, and have been mild off-roading for years, but have never considered doing any serious off-roading till now. I am just wanting some advice on whether spare axles are needed.
BTW what spares and tools do you carry? |
perroneford
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:44 pm: |
|
While it's a pretty simple job to replace an axle on a Rover, if you are in terrain that causes you to break axles, you are probably going to really need 4wd to get out.
Changing axles really doesn't require much in the way of special tools other than a pair of snap-ring pliers, and a hub nut wrench. Other than that its just the 17mm socket and ratchet, jack, axle stand, and something to fish out the broken piece at the diff end. A thin, magnetized bar should do the trick. The 10 spline setup has a seperate drive member which allows you to bolt up the end of the axle for a leak free drive home.
The short sides are most prone to break but in truth, if you are really worried about this, just bite the bullet and upgrade to 24 spline. It's not as costly as you may think. A pair of stock 24 spline axles can be had for $150-$200, and I just saw people selling 24 spline diffs used for about $150-200.
Remember, tempting fate is an expensive business. If you can afford to buy spare 10 spline axles, you can afford to buy something less likely to break in the first place.
Just my $.02 from having been in your shoes.
-P |
JB
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:38 pm: |
|
Alann - After running stock 10 spline for 3 years I have broken 3 diffs now and no rear axles, broken no front axles, cvs or front difs.. I run 245/75/16 maxis mudders.. I carry a spare diff now too.. (and a spare cv and rear axles too)..a heavy foot hurts the diff the most, especially when climbing a hill if you roll back just a bit then hit the gas the diff might go boom.. see the video, under videos at the top, of Sean A (2nd page of videos) to see how not to do it!!
Once you take off the tire, you undo the bolts holding the flange/ driveshaft in and slide it out - then get out the broken bit with a magnet stick - which I hear can be a real pain.. I carry 4 minute JBweld and a thin steel rod so if I ever break a shaft I can put some JB weld on the end and stick it in there to weld and pull the broken bit out or push it through..magnet seems too weak.. Yes - you can get home in 2wd if you can get off the trail. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:20 pm: |
|
JB:
I don't think I will be abusing my Rover like the one in the video, I don't have enough kahunas to do that at this point. |
JB
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:52 pm: |
|
babysteps ;) you are just one deep scratch away from trying!! |
Ron A
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:25 pm: |
|
Alan carrying spare axels is always a good idea especially if you have 10 spline axels.
Short sides on the rear seldom break so if you going to carry just one get the long side. Most of the time they break at the beginning of the spline were the cross section gets smaller than the axle. This will leave the spline nub in the diff.
Jack up the axel so the side you are removing is higher and won�t lose the gear oil. Unbolt the flange and remove the broken axel.
The problem with using a magnetic bar or magnet is that it wants to attach to everything but the axel nub. I use (used to at least) a piece of ¾ pvc pipe that is 1� longer than the length of the long side (easiest if you make this before hand). I put a couple wraps of duct tape so that is approximately the same diameter as the axel guide just before the diff.
Then I use a telescoping magnet (any hardware store) to �fish� out the broken end.
Sadly enough we were breaking enough axels that we started timing ourselves.
The record is 17 minutes without air, 12 minutes with air tools.
Good luck,
Ron A |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 03:33 pm: |
|
Thanks everybody for the great info and advice!
Ron A:
Can I ask you why you are breaking axles like tooth picks? Kinda makes me scared to do anything radical with my stock 10 spline and 32" tires until I can afford to upgrade the axles. |
Ron A
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 04:39 pm: |
|
10 axel splines are inherently weak. It�s a small diameter axel with very few splines. The fewer the splines the deeper the cut, thank goodness they�re square cut and not �V�.
Larger tires (rotational mass or mass moment) and a heavy right foot usually will cause something to brake in an early RR. Thank goodness the axel is the weak link, which is probably by design. The other parts on the drivetrain are usually more expensive and harder to get to.
Pull the axels every once in awhile and check to see if it has some twist at the splines. If it�s got more than say 10 degrees of twist (I�m guessing at a number) then it should probably be replaced. Stock axels are very ductile and don�t usually break all at once.
If you are running 10 splines and are breaking something other than the axels (r&p, spiders, pins etc) then something else is wrong and should be fixed.
I�d say if you don�t have plans on doing hard trails just carry spares and save yourself some money. But if you break 2 or 3 in the same calendar year you might want to upgrade. (grin)
Ron A |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 04:48 pm: |
|
There is a very good article regarding axle inspection here: http://www.land-roverco.com/tech/techart1.html
Jaime |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 05:46 pm: |
|
Thanks for the info Ron.
Thanks for the informative link Jamie, I will be doing some camping and off-roading with some of my Jeep buddies in Clayton, Oklahoma next month, if you have been down there, there are some great trails, and also some potential axle breaking ones. So I am rather concerned about breakage and will probably carry a used spare to be on the safe side. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 05:58 pm: |
|
Haven't made it there yet. I'm in the same boat as you with 10-splines on my RR so have been taking it fairly careful until I figure out which way to go. Unfortunately I also have ARB lockers front and rear and didn't upgrade at the time. Hind sight always 20/20. At least the diffs are strong. Seems like there always is something else to buy.
Jaime |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 07:29 pm: |
|
Jamie:
I read somewhere that LWB's had 24 spline axles in the rear, but still only the 10 spline up front. If thats the case, then you may be good to go, since the front axles seem to be much less prone to breakage compared to the rear. Don't take my word for it as I am not sure, someone else on this board might be better able to answer this question. I had read about people converting 10 spline rear axles to 24 spline axles using rear LWB axles and diffs. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:17 pm: |
|
Jamie:
Please disregard my prior posting, I just checked some part numbers, looks like early LWB's had 10 spline axles front are rear and they later changed to 24 spline axles front and rear. You could probably convert just the rear axle to 24 spline but I think you will have to get a new ARB to match the 24 spline axle. When does it end? |
perroneford
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:06 pm: |
|
LWB Rovers from 93 on have 24 spline axles just like Discos and D90s.
-P |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:08 pm: |
|
Ron,
i sure loved to see you do a short work of changing the axle. tried to do the same when the jeep's 44 broke - no go. eventually had to pull the diff out, drill and tap the remaining piece (twisted and wedged good in the diff's splines), and use a puller (okay, a couple odd pieces of metal) to get it out. I doubt the rover axles are so much more brittle than the 44s, so if the spline end snaps off, the splines have a good chance to wedge in there.
not that i really want to check the differences in metallurgy between the U.S. and U.K. iron...
peter |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 12:33 am: |
|
Peter don't tell me that, I'm out looking for a 44 to go up front.
I was going to do a rockwell on the broken end of an axel but it's so soft it may not register.(LOL)
Let me know when you want to sell the tubes on that old wagon of yours. (grin)
Ron A |
JB
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 09:42 am: |
|
Jaime and Alan - I am looking to buy a second 1990 RRC this weekend for the Viscous Coupling and BW. The previous owner tried to rebuild the engine and quit. It has never been offroad. Let me know if you need some more 10 spline stuff for cheap. My email is [email protected]
Ron A. - I have broken a total of 3 sets of center pins and spider gears. 2 sets on one diff, 1 set on a new diff- each rebuilt by a pro (not me )what else might be wrong in my drive train ? I rebuilt the driveshafts each time as well. What am I doing wrong here ? Help me start breaking axles, not diffs. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 09:53 am: |
|
Perrone, I just looked up the specs on rangerovers.net and it says 10 splines to mid 93 and 24 from then on, but doesn't say LWB or SWB and there are two sets of axle numbers for 93-95 RRC, I assume a vin cutoff. Did all LWB's come with 24 spline as you say and maybe the SWB had 10 spline then switched to 24 spline? I know its just trivial, but just wanting to know. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:03 am: |
|
All this talk about breaking 10 spline axles and diffs is really scaring me. What do I need to convert the rear axle to 24 spline? Just 24 spline axles and a 24 spline Diff, will it just bolt right in or do I need anything else special?
Thanks again for everyone's help and advise. |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:14 am: |
|
Alan, I wouldn't worry so much about breaking axles. Most of the guys that have posted on this thread do some heavy duty wheelin'. I've been wheeling with my Rangie for 1.5 years and have not broken anything yet that has left me stranded on a trail. The terrain here in the NE is mostly rocks, some mud and very little sand.
I carry over 500 lbs of gear. Yes, I have weighed it! I have extra driveshaft, trailing arms, toolbox, fluid box, air compressor, etc etc... but I supply parts for the people in our group. They bring the food and beverages (water and soda just in case Mr. Lee is lurking here). I also have my family with me most of the time so add a few hundred pounds and you have a very heavy Rangie. |
Bill Bettridge (Billb)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:16 am: |
|
Alan - the 24 spline upgrade is a good thing to do, BUT don't get too worked up and afraid to wheel with the 10 spline stuff.
I've got a very good friend with an 87 RRC with 285K miles - TT's front an rear and a built RPI 3.9 - still on original stock 10 splines - and he pushes the truck hard!
I also camped with Ali at the MAR and he has an early RRC with ARB's front and rear, very high mileage and has done all kinds of crap out west - all on stock 10 splines.
I think it is a matter of watching what you do - but that goes for 10 or 24 spline stock axles - wheel hop - sudden "0" traction to full traction will kill the axles and diffs of either.
You also have an advantage with the earlier diff carriers as they seem to be cast from a much better alloy - if you swap in a later stock 24 spline diff you could be asking for other problems (I ate both stock 24 spl diffs in under 65K with small tires)
Spare axles are a good think to have, but I don't think you should be worried about not wheelin the truck at all with the 10 splines
IMO
Bill |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:28 am: |
|
Thanks John and Bill for the words of confidence for the 10 spline, I feel better already :-) |
AdrianS
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 11:01 am: |
|
Alan, I also have 10 splines on my 91RRC and run 245 Futura MT's. I go wheelin with JohnC all the time and as long as your easy on the gas you should be okay. We also do a fair amount of rock crawling. You will be amased at what these trucks are capable of doing. Just keep the wheel spin down. What about getting your axles cryo-treated? It makes them much stronger and they charge 2.50lb. The rear axles break more often because when going uphill the rear is pushing most of the weight of the truck. Here is there address: Bob Reed, Motorsports Div. Mgr.
300 Below, Inc.
2999 East Parkway Drive
Decatur, IL 62526
(800)550-2796
www.300below.com
FWIW
Adrian
91RRC |
Ron A
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 02:01 pm: |
|
Tallbrad/JB I wish I had a definitive answer to give you but I am in no way an expert on differentials. BUT I have had this conversation with those that do work on gearing and differentials on a daily basis and here is why I made the comment on differential breakage.
Cross pins (center pin shaft), spider gears, carriers and r&p�s are not designed to break under high load but the straight axel shaft probably is. We would have to ask the design engineer but it�s a safe assumption especially with the small 10 spline.
The question is �why are parts breaking in the diff�. The first answer I got from the �expert� was driving technique. After I stopped laughing I ask �ok lets figure its not the go pedal what specifically could be wrong?�
Turns out there are a number of things that can cause these problems, here are a few.
Carrier set up (this seems a bit obvious)
Bearing hubs on the carrier case � do the bearings spin in the case from loose fit
Side gear bores and thrust washers � galled or excessive wear
Spider pinion and side gear teeth � chips or pits
Contact wear (excessive) on the cross pin shaft
(these are indicators of what might be causing the problem)
I haven�t had problems with drivetrain component other then the 10 spline axels so this information was from talking to or reading up on the subject so the usual caveats apply (i.e. don�t believe everything you read on the internet� haaaa haaaa)
The �qualified technicians� that I usually speak with are: Randy�s Ring and Pinion in Everett, WA and Drivetrain Direct in Corona, CA.
Wish I could be more help, good luck.
Ron A |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 04:38 pm: |
|
Alan Bates,
I thought all LWB rovers had the 24 spline and the LWB and SWB switched over in mid year 93. I could be wrong about that. Call Bill Davis at Great Basin Rovers for the definitive answer. He will know off the top of his head.
-P |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:20 pm: |
|
From the Great Basin Web Page:
****
Note 2)
Rover converted all remaining 10 spline axle applications to 24 spline during 1993 (which included most models). Unfortunately it wasn't done cleanly i.e. the change was done done somewhere in the middle of the year, so if you have a 1993 vintage Land Rover you need to determine which axle spline you have. You can compare the axle case serial number with the factory parts book although we have found that its not particularly accurate. To be 100% sure, it is best to pull a rear axle and look. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 10:25 pm: |
|
LOL Ron,
the tubes on my yellow wagon will stick 4" out on both sides of your rangie;
on the blue wagon, i've been lookin' at them and thinking of how cool it would be to replace them with rover axles!
peter |
Ron A
| | Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 12:13 am: |
|
hey pm, I paid good money to buy wheels that stick out 3" each side... pass the vodka please (grin) and ol' blue doesn't need rover axels just a little tlc.
I'm on my way to bastardizing my truck so nobody knows what it is... oops I should be jumping to the POR board about now (joshing boys, just joshing).
Kyle jump on over to this thread and lighten it up a bit, no MAR baggage though...
HHHHAAAAAAAA
Ron A |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 07:12 am: |
|
he's too cool to hang with "rangie fags" but we know this is where it's really at.
:-}
rd |
Ron A
| | Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 10:23 am: |
|
heee heee, yea Rob the 'axel and diff breaking section' is the place.
just please, nobody ask how much trimming they need for 235's (LOL).
Ron A |
blueboy
| | Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 08:18 pm: |
|
Hi guys,
Finally found a way, maybe, to log on here in Bogata.
JB - thx for the offer and will double check if the 2 RR are compatible as mine is a early model 1993 LWB and for sure 10 spine.
So far as Bill has said, no problems with the axles. My concern is an upcoming event this Spring and we carry evrything plus the kitchen sink when we go.
From checking ECR site, it looks like something is now possible for ABS RRs to upgrade the front stuff. Plus all the good stuff from GBR. Guess it all amounts to how much U$ is left this year.
Jaime |
Stephan
| | Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 09:03 pm: |
|
If you want some encouragement, I have an 88 rangie with a 4.6, front and rear lockers, 265/80 swampers, and arb bumpers with a winch and i'm running the original 10-splines. I'm pounding on wood as i type this but they havn't broken yet. You can ask John C., I"ve broken everything on my car but the axles keep holding. |
Geoff Wakefield (Gwakefield)
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 12:07 am: |
|
I have a '93 SWB Rangie - 10 splines in front and rear. I think the switch to 24 spline was in the LWB only. |
Ho Chung (Ho)
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 12:53 am: |
|
wow stephan, do you carry a spare? |
Stephan
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 01:30 am: |
|
Yeah, I just aquired some from a friend who switched to 24's, he gave me his old 10s. Yeah, the truck is so heavy that my warn 8000 can't pull it out of most mud pits, so the only way to get it out is to spin the tires while winching. I know that's REALLY bad for the axles but somehow... the're still there. Between the body lift, suspension lift, tires, etc, i'm aware that something is going to break soon. I"m saving up for 24's, what do you think is the cheapest way to aquire a set? |
Stephan
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 01:35 am: |
|
What does it actually sound/feel like when an axel breaks? |
Stephan
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 01:39 am: |
|
You know what someone should do.. They should publish a book about how to fix a land rover on the trail with all the common tools. Anyone see Apollo 13? That once scene where they had to find a way to filter carbon dioxide with a handfull of parts... We need that for Land Rovers. It would probably make money! |
perroneford
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 06:09 am: |
|
Why do you need a book? If you do you own maintenance, you'll figure out the common tools and carry them. With the toolbox I have in the back, I can strip my truck in the field, and have. From wheelbearings, to ignition system, to differentials.
But this isn't the movies and it takes more than just a handfull of tools and parts. NASA designs space vehicles so that they only have 3 fastener sizes for everything on the vehicle. Must be nice.
-P |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 08:06 am: |
|
Ho, they only spare Stephan carries is an Amex Gold card....hehehe
But seriously, he does manage to get his Rangie stuck alot and with the 4.6 and lockers I am surprised that he hasn't broken any axles. We're gonna have to inspect those axles one of these days Stephan.
Book??? hmmm...here's a neat trick...if you break a belt make sure you have with you in the Rangie a HOT young lady with nylon stockings...ask her to remove her stockings and use it as a belt (place it around the pulleys, tie a knot and clip the overlap)... it's worked for me, the only thing is a didn't have a HOT young lady with me, I had to use a pair of my own...I mean, my wifes stockings  |
Stephan
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 08:59 am: |
|
John,I only wish i had an Amex gold gold card, my parents don't pay for shit when it comes to that car, it's all money that i worked for. Besides, if i had a credit card, do you have any idea how sick my truck would look? I would have every off-road mod know to man SPeaking of breaking our cars, i'm coming back from school for a few days, you wanna do some wheelin?? |
Ho Chung (Ho)
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 09:48 am: |
|
stephan,
i asked if you carried spares because things seem to break mostly when you least expect them to. so if you carry spare expecting them to break, they'll never break.
now that you carry a spare, they surely won't break now! |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 09:50 pm: |
|
Stephan,
when the axle breaks, you know that it was it.
There are some subtle variations in the POP it makes, but I'm yet to find something that breaks with the similar sound.
transfer cases tend to become more vocal when they are about to quit. And then, when they do, it's more like BANG. and then you can see what's inside
peter |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:52 am: |
|
now my personal sound palette of drivetrain breakage has an added entry to it - the sound of a popping 6-260X U-joint in the front of an XJ's Dana 35. the sound is so faint... there ain't too much metal in it
it was like pop, compared to a manly POP of a rover CV joint or rear axleshaft, and BAMM of a Dana-44 axleshaft.
peter |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page