| Author | Message | ||
     R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 607 Registered: 07-2002 |
I am possibly looking at converting from stock '65 IIa to a 200 or 300 Tdi with a Defender gear box. Price? Viability? Possible without spending a forturne? Anyone with experience besides the two people I know in Portland? And do you know if I have to change to a full "Defender" setup: Coil springs, new transfere case, etc...?? http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net | ||
| Ike Goss (Leafsprung) Member Username: Leafsprung Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2003 |
Judging by the questions you are asking. You may not have the know how needed to do this yourself. If you have to pay someone to do it it will be very expensive. Diesel really isnt cost effective in terms of repowering a truck, especially the rover diesels. Id say stay stock or go to a small block chevy if you want more power. You dont need coils though. -Regards -Ike Goss | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 608 Registered: 07-2002 |
I don't want to do it myself, I don't have a shop. I mainly want to know if it is possible to do it without having to go to the Defender transfere case, because if I do that, I am assuming I would have to spend the money to get new diffs also. I have seen both an 88 and a 109 with this set-up, and watching the difference in performance between the stock set-up and the new diesel set-up is astounding. Plus, you get more than 2x the fuel economy, more reliability, and better overall daily drivability. I drive the Series about 3 times a week. I know that if I were to decide to simply overhaul the current engine and transmission that I would not significantly improve performance or drivability, but would keep the 10-12 mpg, and probably spend more than half what I would spend putting a diesel and 5 speed in it. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 677 Registered: 02-2002 |
R.B., Check out ECR's website. There is a bunch of info on diesels in Series LR. from their site "The driveline of this 88 is this new 2.5 diesel, mated to an R380 5 speed and the Series part time 4x4 transfer case, a very tough and long lasting combination. In the image above you can see that we are getting the new 2.5 diesel set up and ready for install into the coil chassis system. The 2.5 diesel is a great choice for diesel power in an 88. It requires very few modifications to install it (unlike the Tdi engine family), and with the right gearbox it will give plenty of speed and power." http://www.eastcoastrover.com/87.html Jaime | ||
| SF (Alacrity) New Member Username: Alacrity Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2003 |
ECR will do it for you, they may even have one or two in stock. They mate the R380 5Spd to your case, its not a direct bolt up, but its not intricate either. Dont need a coil chassis, but ECR wont do it unless you convert to coils. They will put a 2.5D in a leafer, with the R380, but kinda defeats the purpose. Do you have a line on an engine? Im figuring $5k for a TDI starters. Ballparking ECRs pricing - R380 Conversions $5k, coiler about the same $5k, $9k on the TDI. Might be high or low, I'd bet low; first two are close, last is derived and might be significantly off, but I doubt it's be cheaper. Even a reasonable local shop must source a TDI. TDIs command a premium, unless you can swing a deal in the UK. Ive seen R380s for $1-$1.5k, think RDS has them at present. Still going to need to mate it to your transfer case, meaning a bit of work. Dont know of any shop that would do this flat rate. No idea clock time on something like this, but lets say 40 hours. The local Brit shop I'd feel comfortable having at this charges $55.00 an hour, so $2.2 K labor. Any way you slice it its going to cost. Lets say $10k opening. Seeing you dont have a shop, if you have a local technical school, they often charge only for parts and do a decent job. You'd be surprised what they can do, and how well its done; then again they have the time to do things right - dont expect your Rover back this semester. All in all, I bet you could install a Robert Davis 4 (RD really needs a catchy name for the thing) and a Ashcroft T-case conversion for the cost of an ECR R380. Have your local tech school do the swap, they'll be more than capable, it bolts right in. You'd have plenty of money left to feed it gas the rest of your life. Even with a trans rebuild you'd be well ahead. Will run as good or better. You may want some discs either way though. If you must have a TDI, you will spend a good chunk. If I was UK domiciled I'd do a Prima. Here, the Davis 4 is awful cheap for the money. | ||
| SF (Alacrity) New Member Username: Alacrity Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2003 |
Jaime we think alike. The 2.5 Diesel wont perform all that differently than a FRESH 2.25. Performance is similar, barring mileage, but at a significant premium over other choices. Presently, or at least earlier this spring, ECR had no 2.5D's available and none on the horizon. Keep in mind none of these diesel engines are EPA certed, so it jimmys the importation. Does Rvr North even sell the TDI kits anymore? Thought someone told me they had some EPA/Customs issues with them and discontinued. Makes you wonder how all these japanese front clips get in. | ||
| Jeffry Scott (Jeffry) Member Username: Jeffry Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rob, why not convert the Discovery? You can get the 2.8 Powerstroke (a modified Land Rover diesel made now in Brazil) and mounting plates and don't need to change anything else - you get an ecu free Disco that gets much better mileage. | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 609 Registered: 07-2002 |
Well my mechanic has done at least 3 Series to Tdi projects, I don't know if he has his own way of matching the t-case to the gear box. But he currently owns two Series Rovers with a 200 and a 300 Tdi installed respectively. I will be asking him about it since he will do the work, but I like to get as many opinions as possible from Dweb too! I do know that he gets some of his parts from a military supplier in Canada - parts are much different than bringing in a whole car. | ||
| SF (Alacrity) New Member Username: Alacrity Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2003 |
If the guys done it then yep, ask him he can give you a run down. Hell if you can get a TDI/R380 done for $5k I'd ship him one of mine. If he's done two, he should be able to give you a flat rate quote, seeing he knows what to expect. Im sure he knows how to mate the r380 to your box. Doubt he used a LT77S, but think the 200TDI used that the first few model years, maybe only one year. But ask him, he should know. As far as parts being much different from cars, well they are easier to get in country but not due to less regulatory issue. Parts (equipment) are still required to meet requirements of DOT, FMVSS, EPA, ad nauseam. A car is readily recognizable and there are specific regulation regarding importation, which they actively enforce. Suppose to file a HS-7 on either though; and a 3520-1 EPA, it gets laborious. But Customs is almost solely preoccupied with NHSTA/FMVSS issues. But, if you live in a area with emissions checks, they'll want to see the VECI label - Vehicle Emission Control Information. Now this wont matter with a vehicle 25 years or older, not subject to importation regulation (FMVSS), or an engine 21 or older, not subject to EPA regulation. TDI's are not that old, but get one into a 25 year old vehicle and its difficult to recognize its in violation. The engine will be in violation of the Clean Air Act if it does not have a label affixed (VECI) by the manufacturer that the vehicle meets U.S. EPA emission requirements at the time of manufacture, not that I personally give a rats ass. Just eyes open mate. There’s so many regulatory issues here no wonder customs keys only on vehicles. As a practical matter, you're correct parts are much different. Who knows if the seat belts someone ordered from the UK are DOT approved, or lights, or windshield. Doubt customs will hold up small orders while they confirm. My point was you wont see TDIs, or any non-conforming engine, imported in large batches. Same way you wont see 500 non-NAS Defenders brought in, just a few mom a pop grey market jobs, and many more black market Canadian border jumpers. No coincidence you see plenty of Canadian sourced RG500 Gammas, Defenders, etc in states bordering Canada. Tend to get rarer further south Let us know how it turns out, and if he can do TDIs cheap, Im sure he'll have a line forming at his door. | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Tdi 200 was used for about 4~5 years. It differs from the Tdi 300 since it gets a wee bit better mpg but is louder (from what I've heard from LR mags and people across the pond). Yea, check with you mechanic. If it seems like a reasonable price, then go for it. Supposidly, ECR won't put a Tdi on a leaf sprung truck b/c the diff housing can hit the oil pan. But I would think that you could install longer bumpstops. This would be easier and a whole lot cheaper than switching over to coils. Best of luck to ya! Max T. | ||
| Ike Goss (Leafsprung) Member Username: Leafsprung Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2003 |
Ok, consider this. You spend 5K on parts another 2-4K on instalation and odds and ends you will need. Then you have a slow, loud, truck that wont go 100K miles without needing something major. The improved gas mileage will never make up for the initial expense and with only 100 hp its going to be better than stock, but still essentially gutless. -No replacement for displacement -Ike Goss | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 613 Registered: 07-2002 |
I have done some pricing. It looks like the diesel conversion is out of the question - pushing $7k or more. I will probably keep the old 2.25, refurbish the engine bay, and get an adaptor kit from ECR for an LT77 or the 380. Or, my mechanic says he can make an adaptor without much trouble. This would cost about $1500 for the trans, about $700 for the adaptor and hardware, and another $2000 for the labor if I don't do any of it myself - which I will probably at the least, remove the old stuff and prepare it for the new. Here is the hitch - ECR says that the NAmerican versions of the 77 and 380 DON'T work with their adaptor kits!! Which seems strange, I would think they would want to get into the cheap market for used trans in the US and Canada. So from what they are telling me you must order the trans from them, or get one shipped to you from England. http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net | ||
| Ike Goss (Leafsprung) Member Username: Leafsprung Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2003 |
Why do you need a 5 speed?, why not get a high ratio t-case or overdrive. Much less hassle and far cheaper. What real benefit would you get with the 5 speed behind a 2.25? -Regards -Ike Goss | ||
| SF (Alacrity) New Member Username: Alacrity Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2003 |
Ike has a point. I beleive the issue with US sourced r380's (hell was there even a US LT77? if so in what?) is that they are Disco 5spds with the long bell housing. You need the short Defender bell housing for a Series. Not necessarily a US vs. England type of deal, but you cant blame ECR for not being entirely clear. Bet your mechanic can explain this issue fully. RDS has the r380, he'd be willing to entertain your questions. Tho some gent in Chicago had a couple for $1k over the winter. I'd not mess with a 5spd or a T-case swap before I got some more grunt in the front. Is the issue top end? Not happy with the highway manners? | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2317 Registered: 02-2002 |
Some of the earlier Defenders were LT77s, I think... LRNA had a program where they were swapping R380s in their place for awhile.... I agree, though, need more umph before bothering with a 5-speed behind a 2.25.... -L | ||
| SF (Alacrity) New Member Username: Alacrity Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2003 |
Had it in my head that the NAS defenders all had the ZFs, but that was that hardtop spec edition eh? As far as the long v short bellhousing, bit of ambiguiity above. The long belhousing is the v8 setup. If your junkyard sourcing a NAS R380 or LT77, then you match up to the body. So no you cant source a NAS 5spd, but you dont hafta order from England. Imagine your Canadian connection could source you a short bell 5spd, their enlighted on import up there. | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 615 Registered: 07-2002 |
MORE enlightend you mean, but not completely free of the grasp of big government on regular auto imports.  Anyway, I do have an overdrive. I'm tired of it, I can only top 60, and I must wear ear protection to do it. The possibility of a high ratio t-case is there, I am keeping my options open. (It's not that I really care to drive over 60, but that I have to at least be able to go that fast to GET ANYWHERE FUN!) From what it sounds like, the 380 or 77 must be sourced from a military rover to fit right. So with the Canadian law of 15 or older, it is much more likely that I will find a good trans to fit from up there. | ||
| Ike Goss (Leafsprung) Member Username: Leafsprung Post Number: 63 Registered: 03-2003 |
youre not going to see any more performance than you would with the overdrive and its going to be a pain in the ass to deal with and expensive. Its a waste of time IMO. Get some more power first to handle the taller gears. REgards Ike Goss | ||
| micky dee (Kincangokicker) New Member Username: Kincangokicker Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2003 |
i had a 67 109 . this truck had a chevy straight six 296 truck engine in there. it had electronic ignigtion. then we put a three inch exhaust in. it also had a chevy munci •••••• four speed with and over drive. it was mated using advance adapters. this rover would read 140 kpm/h. but im sure i could have got more speed out of her if i whitched to range rover diffs or a dif of higher ratio. low range was high but KAM offers a lower ratio gear conversion to retain the creeper gear needed. it had a defender front and fiberglass hood conversion. it was white and was sold to a guy in boston, as all canadains sell to the u.s. market. all the talk about deisels and power. why not retro fit a ford 7.3 turbo ? now thats nice and powerfull. | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 618 Registered: 07-2002 |
OK, so it looks like a diesel would be a great thing with a new transmission - if you have $8-10k to spend on an old car. So what about an old V8 from a Range Rover and an LT77 or R380? Both of those things should be available in the U.S. or Canada for a relatively cheap price. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 716 Registered: 02-2002 |
R.B., stuffing a V8 into a Series II is possible along with a LT230 and a R380, however, here is what was said when we did it - "Modifications are needed to the bulkhead, steering system and just about everything else, to fit the V8". go here to see the process - http://www.eastcoastrover.com/Thompson109.html one key to the install was using an electric fan in order to keep the set back grill. if you install a III front, there is enough room for the viscous fan and the process is easier as now its more like a Defender or Stage 1. Jaime | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 718 Registered: 02-2002 |
forgot to add set back grill with the headlights set in the grill vs the III/Def where the lights are in the wings. Jaime |
