| Author | Message | ||
     Jack Edwards (Olered) Senior Member Username: Olered Post Number: 403 Registered: 04-2002 |
Okay, I've done the search but grew old searching. Without flaming or griping over brands, what would be the best tool purchase? No brands now. If I was purchasing sockets and wrenches. What would you have to work on your Disco? Two sets? Deep sockets? Torx? What's the choice? After wrenching this weekend, I've decided that I need a good setup. Thanks. | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 1003 Registered: 02-2002 |
duct tape! mike w | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 384 Registered: 03-2003 |
I guess it all depends on your needs. If you want tools for suspension or bumper installs, then I would recommend a 1/2" drive set. You need the leverage from the long 1/2" ratchets and many of the suspension fasteners are too large for a 3/8" drive set. If you want stuff for engine work, then the 1/2" drive set is really clumsy to use in tight spaces. The 1/2" drive ratchets are very heavy and will tire you quickly. The ratchets are also large and will not fit into tight spaces like the 3/8" drive sets will. You really need both 3/8" and 1/2" I think. We currently have only one 1/2" drive ratchet in the shop: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05751.jpg This is a locking flex ratchet and it's 18" long. That's as long as a standard 1/2" breaker bar and will let you loosen/tighten almost any bolt. The flex feature on this ratchet really comes in handy because the handle is so long and clumsy to use. In a tight spot with a breaker bar and a six-point socket, you would have to swing the breaker bar a full 60 degrees before you could remove the socket and reset it on the fastener. 60 degrees is a huge amount with a handle 18" long. The ratchet will let you reset every 10 degrees. When you're loosening suspension bolts, you will notice a huge difference between the breaker bar and the ratchet. This 18" ratchet will give you tremendous amounts of leverage, but it's so big and clumsy in tight spots. That's why we have 3/8" ratchets as well: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06643.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06649.jpg The palm ratchet is very useful in tight spots where the swing arc of a standard ratchet or wrench would not fit: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06487.jpg The stubby flex ratchet is also really nice for tight spots: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06508.jpg If your hand will fit, then probably the stubby will fit as well. The handle flexes as well, so you can reach even tighter spots and can conform the handle to the shape of your hand for a more comfy fit: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06509.jpg That third ratchet is a 3/8" locking flex ratchet, just like the 1/2" version: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05727.jpg This ratchet is just as long as a standard 3/8" breaker bar and pretty much obviates the need for a 3/8" breaker bar. The flex head really helps get the long ass handle out of the way of some tighter spots. That funky-shaped ratchet is a speeder ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06497.jpg The head will flex on the ratchet like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06499.jpg The handle has a bearing on it, so that you can orient the ratchet like a speeder: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06498.jpg Simply put the speeder ratchet in line with the fastener's axis: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06501.jpg And then speed away. You can crank on the bolts until they are hand tight. Then you can torque them down by straightening out the head: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06503.jpg I like to use this ratchet with a 1/2" adapter and chrome socket on wheels: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06557.jpg It's very easy to speed on the lug nuts with this set-up: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06560.jpg And then torque down: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06562.jpg This ratchet is even longer than the locking flex ratchet and Snap-on gives a full torque rating to this ratchet. It's very easy to get the 100 ft. lbs. or so on the lug nuts. The last ratchet is a multi-position ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06510.jpg There is a splined shaft on this ratchet's handle: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06513.jpg Just push down on the shaft and the head will fall down and unlock: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06523.jpg Then you can orient the head any which way you like: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06522.jpg This ratchet is handy for reaching around or behind something in the way: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06565.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06571.jpg For extensions, we don't have any 1/2" extensions right now. We have only set of 3/8" extensions: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06528.jpg These are what Snap-on terms "Wobble Plus" and are sort of a hybrid between standard and wobble extensions. The anvil shape is unique: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06533.jpg If you want to use the extension as a standard extension, just push in the socket all the way until it seats and locks: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06535.jpg If you want to use the extension as a wobble extension, simply pull out the socket slightly: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06536.jpg You can combine the Wobble Plus extensions to make them longer: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06541.jpg Or you can combine Wobble Plus extensions to make a poor man's flex extension: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06539.jpg I absolutely need this feature on one of my bumper bolts: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06597.jpg Whatever extensions you buy, get some that are knurled: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06544.jpg Cheapo extensions are not knurled and are a pain in the ass to use. For sockets, the list is endless. Chrome. Impact. Six-point. Eight-point. 12-Point. Shallow. Semi. Deep. Swivel shallow impact. 1/4". 3/8". 1/2". Endless. And this stuff is really pricey too. We can't afford everything, so we take things a step at a time. For the 1/2" sockets, we have only shallow. We have both six-point impact and 12-point chrome: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05894.jpg Some say that buying chrome sockets is a waste because you can use impact on your hand tools. This is certainly true. The only problem with impacts is that they are thicker and don't always fit. But you can probably get by with using impact sockets on almost all of your 1/2" needs. We can't afford the swivel sockets, so for the chrome sockets we use a U-joint: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05843.jpg And attach it to the 1/2" sockets: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05845.jpg And form a poor man's swivel socket. This usually works but you could run into height problems on some tight spots. For the impact sockets, we do the same thing: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05902.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05903.jpg Voila! Poor man's swivel sockets: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05906.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05913.jpg We also can't afford semi-deep sockets, so we just use the 1/2" sockets whenever we need a semi. Here are two 1/2" sockets: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05913.jpg On the left is a 3/8" and on the right is a 1/2". Both are "shallow" sockets. However, the 1/2" drive socket is considerably taller. Even taking into account the larger 1/2" anvil, the 1/2" drive socket has more bolt clearance within it. You will eventually need the deep sockets though. If you're strapped for cash, you can buy the deep sockets on an as-needed basis instead of in sets. Ratchets and sockets are definitely not enough. You will need wrenches. My favorite are the Flank Drive Plus wrenches: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05761.jpg These feature the funky jaws on the open end that both pull the fastener into the jaws and drive the fastener on the flats rather than the points: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05783.jpg Put the "plus" in your open-ended wrenching with Flank Drive Plus. You might want a soft-faced deadblow hammer: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06624.jpg The deadblow hammer is filled with lead shot. The shot falls to the face of the hammer upon impact and prevents the hammer from recoilling off the piece that you just hammered. Deadblows come in many types, but we currently use only the soft-faced type for adjusting Dreadnought Sliders on vehicles and getting the fit perfect prior to drilling. The Snap-on deadblow hammer has another nice feature. There are effectively two handles on the hammer: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06627.jpg To strike a heavy blow you can grab the handle at its end: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06625.jpg For a lighter blow, you can grab the handle in its middle: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06626.jpg Of course you can do this with any hammer but it's very nice to have the handle shaped and knurled the way it is so that you can index your hand more easily. You will probably need a standard hammer as well: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06630.jpg I really like the octagonal profile on this hammer's handle: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06631.jpg I find that octagonal shape much more comfortable and much easier to index than the oval handle on other hammers. The handle is also waisted slightly for a comfortable grip and good hand index: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06634.jpg And the handle is also waisted near the head in case you want to choke up on the handle for more precise work. This is a very thoughtful design. You will definitely need screwdrivers: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06491.jpg On the left is a stubby; on the right is the standard, and the palm ratchet in the middle. The ratchet drivers have interchangeable shanks: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05692.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05693.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05694.jpg You can fit fit standard 1/4" extensions if you need even more reach: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05724.jpg And the standard screwdriver's cap is a micro screwdriver: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05703.jpg The standard ratchet driver is hollow inside, so you can hold bits or a Rambo survival kit in there if you like. Unlike many ratcheting drivers, you don't even have to remove your hand from the handle to reverse or lock the ratcheting mechanism: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05720.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05721.jpg The palm ratchet will also accept a bit adapter and permit you to use standard 1/4" bits: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06478.jpg With the bit adapter and a standard screwdriver bit, you can use the palm ratchet as a T driver: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06484.jpg For standard bits, I much prefer my bits to be hollow ground: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05716.jpg This way, the bit is relatively flat at the engagement area and tends less to cam out of the screw as an angled bit would want to under load. For Philips and Posidrive, I much prefer bits with the Anti Camout Ribs: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05710.jpg These ACR's really grip the screws well and prevent the bit from camming out of the screw under load. You can actually feel the added grip when you use these bits. You won't be disappointed. If you have a D2 and want to invert the spare tire or fit a CB antenna, these body panel levers are handy: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05828.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06610.jpg An oil filter wrench is nice: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06652.jpg A circuit tester is also very handy to have around for diagnosing problems or wiring up toys: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05696.jpg This circuit tester needs no ground wire as your body acts as the ground. Just push the needle into the wire you want to test and lean against your car. The unit will react in three ways: (1) light will emit; (2) buzzer will vibrate the unit; and (3) a buzzing noise will be emitted. Thus you can use this unit even in places that are out of sight or in a noisy environment. A wire stripping tool is also nice to have for your lighting installs: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06661.jpg Many of these smaller tools will pay for themselves the first time you use them instead of paying someone else to install your stuff. You will eventually run into some items where it's worth it to buy a specialty tool. A No. 4 Posidriv is a worthwhile investment if you own a D2: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06603.jpg You will need this posidriv socket for undoing the set screws on your brake calipers. Don't use a phillips for this. I use this same socket on my door hinges: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06591.jpg Defender owners might want to purchas a dedicated T47 Torx socket: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06600.jpg The NAS roll cage uses T47 fasteners: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06488.jpg You can use with this T17 with a palm ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06489.jpg Or a speeder ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06504.jpg We work with the Power Tank a lot, so we could justify the purchase of a tappet wrench for the PT's regulator: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06616.jpg Tappet wrenches are designed for low-torque applications and are very thin: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06613.jpg These thin jaws fit easily into the PT's handle and between the regulator and main valve: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06617.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06620.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06622.jpg D2 owners who work on their own suspensions may want to invest in some gear wrenches like the lower one in this photo: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05888.jpg The 18mm and 13mm gear wrenches really come in handy on D2 suspension work. The 13mm wrenches will handle the lower shock mount bolts and the 18mm wrenches will handle the upper front and upper and lower rear shock mount bolts, as well as the sway bars. Most of these are impossible to do with a ratchet and using a standard wrench will get the job done but will be very difficult. We also do a lot of Equal Tire Balancer installs, so we need a valve core tool: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06656.jpg If you wrench a lot might consider an impact wrench: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05635.jpg Or an air ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05908.jpg Just don't use your chrome sockets on your power tools: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05936.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05943.jpg Set up your air tools so that they all use the same coupler: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05686.jpg Then you will be able to swap tools instantly and easily and make your wrenching that much more pleasurable. These specialty items are best purchased on an as-needed basis rather than in sets. You said you didn't want to mention brand names, but I must. I say go with a company that brings the tools to you: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06436.jpg Snap-on, Matco, and MAC all bring the tools to you. Whenever I have a broken tool, the warranty on it is really easy because I don't have to drive somewhere or or mail off the broken tool to have it replaced. I just sit on the tool until the drug dealer comes by again next week. If your tool set has redundancy built into it (and it should), you should be all right without that particular tool. Having the tool guy come to you door also makes it very easy for you to buy only the tools that you need. If you don't know what size you need, just grab the tool off the truck and take it to your vehicle and test fit it. The tool guy should mind this at all so long as you don't scratch the tool in any way. If you buy only what you need, it ends up being cheaper than buying an entire set of some cheapo tools at Home Depot or Lowes or Sears. And of course, the tools listed above are just a start. You will never really end building your tool box. It will certainly be expensive. But if you go about it reasonably and over time, it shouldn't break the bank. And it'll be worth it. Your hands won't be numb the day after you wrench. You'll have more fun wrenching and you'll do more stuff yourself. It's definitely worth it to go first class with your tools. | ||
| Art Bitterman (Aardvark) Member Username: Aardvark Post Number: 58 Registered: 05-2003 |
Damn! That has to be the longest post I've seen yet on this board! My scrolling finger got cramps!  Art Bitterman 1960 SII "Aardvark" (what uses whatever tools that fit the job at the time!-except for my Gun tools; money no object when working on somebodies Pride and Joy!) | ||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 731 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, I'm just guessing here... You like Snap-on tools don't you? Glenn | ||
| Wes Legaspi (Wes) Member Username: Wes Post Number: 159 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, What kind of storage system do you use for all those tools? I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering!  | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 576 Registered: 08-2002 |
Damn John, just when I was thinking that there had not been any interesting posts for quite a while. You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge and pride in your tool set. I learned a lot reading that post. I am putting off having the snap-on dealer stop by 'cause I know I'd become his next junkie. You da man, keep up the good work that was very useful. I think it should go to the tech section. | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 218 Registered: 08-2002 |
Jack, You can get a decent Craftsman set for under $200 that will have 1/4" 3/8" and 1/2" drive sockets and ratchets. Sure that snap-on stuff is SWEEET, but it is also EXPENSIVE and if you are not going to be using the tools everyday then the craftsman tools will do great. BTW, John that was an inspired post! Nice photos! | ||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 628 Registered: 06-2002 |
Damn John. That must have taken an hour to type and post. | ||
| Ray Wallace (Rayd2) New Member Username: Rayd2 Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2003 |
John Lee, you are a class act! | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 216 Registered: 11-2002 |
Impressive John. Most impressive. Well, I use craftsman and it works well for what I do. Which is weekend wrenchin' and nothing too difficult on a routine basis. Generally, I find the most common used sizes on my rovers are 8mm, 10mm and 13mm. Also a good set of extensions is very handy. A set of phillips and slotted screwdrivers are good to have as well. On wrenches (spanners for you british nuts ) I like the combos. It is a lot easier (IMO) to have combos in the field than all open end or box end. I suggest you get 12pt instead of 8pt. There are some 12pt bolts on these trucks and having the right tool will help out a lot. Aquire some tommy (or breaker) bars for 1/2" and 3/8". I don't know how many times these things have bailed me out. Also don't get cheap rachet wrnehces for your sockets. This will only piss you off later. As said before, some electrical stuff is good. Go to Pep Boys or Advanced auto and get a circuit test light. Go ahead and get the nice one for 7 bucks . Try and get a multimeter at the same time. Make sure to get one that can read amps, since this is a very nice feature. Hope this helps! Max T. | ||
| Kobayashi (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 500 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, How could you forget that YAKS-1 butane soldering iron? You're slipping, man!  If you think that's impressive, wait until you see the tools in action. | ||
| thom mathie (Muskyman) Senior Member Username: Muskyman Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2002 |
John you have serious iron fetishes dont you I am a fan of tools...i have them of all shapes sizes and brands. but when it comes right down to it . sufficient tools in the right hands beats the best tools in the wrong hands every time. if someone has a limited tool budget they could have a craftman chest with a 1000 tools for what a few socket sets and a complete set of screw drivers costs from snap-on...but then again I am a cheap fuck. thom | ||
| Michael Noe (Noee) Senior Member Username: Noee Post Number: 727 Registered: 03-2002 |
Can't stress this enough. I just put new front springs in last week, took about an hour, only socket I used was on the radius arm bolts. Takes longer to change out wheel/tires sets now. Great post, kinda thing that could be in tech FAQ somewhere. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2463 Registered: 02-2002 |
I'm gonna not disagree with John's fondness of nice tools. But here are my caveats to it. a) The wife would kill me if I spent that kind of money on tools b) The Snap-On truck doesn't come past the house c) Even if it did, I'm not buying tools every week anyway, it'd just be a waste of the driver's time d) Sears is only 10 minutes away (Edit: the link wouldn't still work, given it's length: Go to http://www.craftsman.com/, and search on the 200+ pc mechanic tool sets.) Get something like this Craftsman set to start with. That way you're only out of pocket by a little compared to Snap-On or MAC, and you can get to work right now. Then, as time progresses, as money allows, trade out and build up a Snap-On collection that your heart desires. That's my plan..... FWIW.... -L | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2464 Registered: 02-2002 |
PS: I prefer 6-pt sockets myself, FWIW... much less rounding of old rusty nuts on Series Rovers... FWIW.... -L | ||
| Jack Edwards (Olered) Senior Member Username: Olered Post Number: 404 Registered: 04-2002 |
Wow! That was a great post! Very inspiring. I guess it would be time to start saving. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1333 Registered: 04-2002 |
I'm not sure if John's post mentions this, but another reason to get a 1/2" ratchet is to open the Differential fill plugs. You can do it with a 3/8" and a 1/2" adapter, but it's not very easy that way. So, even if you don't buy the 1/2" set, it's worth it to have one ratchet or breaker bar in 1/2" for the diff fill plugs. | ||
| Read (Read) Member Username: Read Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
Leslie, "b) The Snap-On truck doesn't come past the house" no truck required: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/catalog.asp | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 217 Registered: 11-2002 |
Leslie, I also prefer 6pt on my series and I mostly use that. But the newer trucks have a lot of 12pt bolts and so 6pt sockets and wrenches just don't work. Like you said Leslie Sears isn't too far away since it is in the same mall that the womenfolk go to every week. Think of it as free service . I also like the fact that I can break my craftsman stuff and get new ones for free. That sure helps out the bill. Max T. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 387 Registered: 03-2003 |
"What kind of storage system do you use for all those tools?" We have a cranberry-colored KRL761: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=storage&item_ID=52197&gr oup_ID=3461&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog This is the standard "starter" box that Snap-on offers. Yes, the price on these things is sobering to say the least. Once you use one though, you can't get along without one. You can open the the drawer fully and put your entire weight on the open drawer without it deforming in any way. You can fill a drawer with bricks and the drawer will still slide open effortlessly on ball bearings. And while the box is expensive, it is really nothing compared to the cost of the tools contained within. | ||
| Art Bitterman (Aardvark) Member Username: Aardvark Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2003 |
John- Nice tool box! Nice price also! Although, tools boxes ain't cheap. I have a stack of Craftman tool boxes about 6 foot tall for my Gunsmithing tools (waht are'rt hung on pegboard in back of my bench). Might cost a lot at the oouset, but will pay in the long run! Only problem I see are the wheels. Sure it's great to roll to the job, but it's also easy for the less honest to roll box out of your garage. Just my two centavos | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 388 Registered: 03-2003 |
The KRL casters are easily removed if you want to make the box more permanent. If you're really concerned about security, you can bolt the box into the concrete like a gun safe. We need the casters in our small shop, as we are constantly moving stuff about. Ooops, my bad. I put a wrong link in my original post about the poor man's semi-deep sockets. Here is the correct pic: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06575.jpg Both of those sockets are 1/2" 12-point shallow sockets. The only difference is that the left socket is 3/8" drive and the right socket is 1/2" drive. Note the height difference. If you need a semi-deep 3/8" drive socket but don't have one, you can use a 1/2" shallow socket until you can afford a 3/8" semi-deep socket. I just use a 1/2" adapter and use the 3/8" ratchet with the 1/2" drive sockets like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05883.jpg This is far from ideal but works most of the time. The main problem comes when you have a height restriction or the width of the 1/2" drive socket is too much. In such cases, I just use the box end on a wrench. Many have advocated going with Craftsman, but I cannot agree. There are some Snap-on items that are very expensive, such as sockets. Snap-on sockets are not that much more than Craftsman sockets, but you need so many sockets that the cost differences add up to lots of money. You need shallow, deep, chrome, impact, swivel, six-point, 12-point etc. These can add up to thousands of dollars. But for many tools, you don't need to own dozens or hundreds of them. Take for example a ratcheting screwdrivers. You really don't need too many screwdrivers. In this case, I think it's very worthwhile to go first class with the Snap-on screwdrivers. Same goes for ratchets. Snap-on ratchets average $100 each, but really how many ratchets does one need? We have lots of ratchets but most people can get by with only a handful. BTW, Craftsman sockets are pieces of shit, so you might think twice before stocking up on dozens of them. Les mentioned stripping with 12-point sockets. You are far less likely to strip with Snap-on 12-point sockets. The Snap-on sockets fit much more tightly than Craftsman sockets of the same nominal size. Craftsman sockets are made looser because Craftsman is unwilling to maintain very tight tolerances on its sockets because doing so would raise the price to Snap-on levels. Rather than face the situation where a socket is a hair too tight to fit, Craftsman makes its sockets loose. Craftsman sockets are also not made of the same high-grade materials as Snap-on sockets and bend/flex/expand more than Snap-on sockets do under load. Imagine a loose-fitting 12-point socket that expands radially under load. The result is a stripped fastener. With a Snap-on socket, you can use a 12-point socket with confidence and enjoy the convenience of using a 12-point socket on six-point fasteners. You can also save money by having 12-point sockets and using them for both six-point and 12-point fasteners. There is no need to buy separate six-point and 12-point socket sets, as you must do with Craftsman sockets. So be sure to factor this into your numbers when you're contemplating what tools you can afford. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2466 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, Again, I wholly agree. This is most definitely a case of "you get what you pay for". However, if you have NO starting point, and no experience, I recommend spending $200 on the Craftsman starter set and get to work. Think of them as disposable. Over time, you can swap out the bits. Get a Snap-On socket set to replace the Craftsman ones. Get a nice ratchet. Later get another. etc. etc. That way, you're in business now, without having to shell out a lung up front to just start out. And, I have to point out, a lot of times, stripping isn't because of the socket itself, but just the fact that I'm trying to twist off a 35-year-old piece of rust that used to be a nut. If a socket fit too snugly, it wouldn't even go on anymore. Use Craftsman to dissassemble, Snap-On to reassemble and maintain. FWIW.... -L | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 578 Registered: 08-2002 |
Don't flame me John... ;-) I love your tools (the metal ones in the pictures above that is), but the last set I bought (needed a 1/2" drive ASAP) was a home depot Husky set. Lifetime warranty and seems every bit as nice as craftsman, if not better. I do agree with you though in the long haul likely the snap on are the way to go and the dealer would stop by your place as long as you buy enough. Do you have to have an account, shop or business to get them to stop by? | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 389 Registered: 03-2003 |
Les, are Series trucks fitted with SAE and metric fasteners? Or British Standard fasteners? I was thinking that you might need six-point fasteners because your fasteners aren't fitting correctly. I've torqued very hard on bolts with 12-point sockets, and have broken more bolt shanks than stripped bolt heads. Brian, don't apologize. You gotta do what you gotta do. The only people I flame are the ones who claim that Craftsman is just as good as Snap-on, which is patently false. If you buy Husky tools and realize you're buying junk/beater tools, there's nothing wrong with that. And I actually prefer Husky to Craftsman. The Husky tools I've seen aren't bad at all. They appear to be equivalent to Craftsman tools in materials and workmanship, and they're cheaper too. So it'll hurt less when you chuck those things into the garbage can later on. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 579 Registered: 08-2002 |
You know I have had good luck with my sockets thus far. The thing that really breaks easily are wrenches. I'm saving for my first snap-on purchase which will be a nice set of wrenches. I think from the pictures above it is pretty obvious to me the quality of the snap-on tools. I have some craftsman and husky socket sets. The snap-on are clearly a better quality tool. You are not the only person that I have heard rave about the quality. I have an old high school buddy that has had some of his snap-on tools longer than I have known him which is over 25 years and he has rebuilt about 10 vehicles during that time, does some mechanics jobs on the side and does maintenance on all of his vehicles. They do live up to more punishment than any other tool I have worked around and they are much more purpose built. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 743 Registered: 02-2002 |
John, I think you got the right idea, it makes all the difference if you can used a good set of tools, it can change a mere chore into a pleasurable time, so you do end up doing more things yourself, saving money (though I dunno about THAT much money). Nice write-up. What do you do if (*GASP*) you scratch one of them? Do they have a 24/7 replacement policy? | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 999 Registered: 09-2002 |
hmmm I've never thought about that - actually, Husky may be a better choice than Craftsman. I've never broken a Husky wrench, but quite a few Craftsman. And the way the Husky's combination wrench handle is shaped is closer to Snap-On. | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 628 Registered: 05-2002 |
To add to the Husky argument, it seems that all (or any I have) of thier combo & open-end wrenches are forged and fully polished like Snap-on. The Craftsman wrenches are only polished on the flat surfaces. I guess this is purely asthetics, but I like the look of a fully polished wrench. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 421 Registered: 01-2003 |
I'd have to add to that list of John's, a hub tool for the front c.v./ axle and a snap ring remover. I replaced my seals on my swivel balls and they were invaluble. I got the snap ring remover from sears (sorry John, I was in a hurry ... lol) and the hub tool from Great Basin Rovers. Also don't cheap out on a multimeter, a good one that can measure voltage, resistance and check for continuity is a good investment, I use a wavetech. Also don't forget to get tool chest drawer liners and organizers. Nothings better than a clean well organized box, helps you keep track of tools better and prevent loss. Finally get lots of shop rags and pitch them when they are shot, remember, a clean tool is a happy tool. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 392 Registered: 03-2003 |
"What do you do if (*GASP*) you scratch one of them?" I just say "oh well" and keep on wrenching. Those pics were taken when the tools were new. The tools now have light scratches on them from use. I think nice tools actually look better with scratches on them anyway. I'm not talking about neglect or abuse, like some of the vehicles I see on this site that have never even been waxed and look like rolling hunks of shit because the owners think it's cool and they think their shit trucks shows that they're not poseurs. Rather, I'm talking about normal wear and tear and a tool that that has obviously been well used but also well cared for. "Do they have a 24/7 replacement policy?" No. The Snap-on and Matco guys come by once a week normally. If you need a tool on an emergency basis (rare if you have redundancy in your tool set), you can call your Snap-on or Matco guy to see if he's available to drop by on his way home or something. If he's not, you're SOL. If you're lucky, he'll be in the area and will be willing to stop by after his regularly scheduled stops. Both our Matco and Snap-on guys live really close to the EE shop, so it's not a problem for them to drop by on their way home or for us to go to their homes if they're too busy to come by the shop at night or on a Saturday or whatever. Then the only problem would be if the guys didn't have the particular tool on their trucks when you needed them. This reminds me of some good advice that Kyle gave me. He said to build relationships with both the Snap-on and Matco guys, because you'll need both of these guys to save your ass one day. You'll eventually need a tool on an emergency basis, and sometimes one tool guy won't have it or can't get to you in time. Then you'll have to rely on the other. So it definitely pays to have relationships with both the Matco and Snap-on guys. Redundancy is a good thing in tools, tool guys, and guns. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1002 Registered: 09-2002 |
The mention of a snap-ring tool made me recall the question at the top of this thread. It is next to impossible to carry ALL tools ever needed to dismantle and reassemble some particular vehicle, even worse if you have various vehicles or expect a different brand/make to be with you on the trail. Also, sometimes tools get used in the field very far from their intended purpose, and sometimes are destroyed in process. For instance, would I carry a box with snap-ring pliers and every possible attachment to it with me? Hell no. If the need appears, I am more likely to break out a file or angle grinder to mangle a screwdriver or needlenose pliers to fit the bill, and either keep them around or toss them afterwards. Likewise, some might have seen bent and pretzelled tie rods saved from oblivion by means of a couple of wrenches welded to the sides - almost literally "coyote ugly," but sometimes that's what you have to do. Also, one personal observation here - people who carry more and better tools with them are less likely to incur mechanical failures. It just happens, you can assign any meaning to it. So, there's a fatter chance that _their_ tool chests are going to be cannibalized. The obvious question here - what would you be willing to sacrifice? I can't possibly see a Snap-On wrench to be welded to a bent trailing arm - but I'd have no remorse cutting off one end of an LesserBrand tool if I need a shortie to work in confined space. | ||
| Wes Legaspi (Wes) Member Username: Wes Post Number: 160 Registered: 02-2002 |
I was browsing the snap-on site and couldn't find information on how to contact a local snap-on guy. Local yellow pages don't show anything either. What's the procedure to have a truck stop by? thanks | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 218 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, from what I've found, the earlier series trucks (like 74' and older) are standard with a little bit of metric here and there. I've got a 73' and my entire tool set is geared for standard. Every once and a while I need metric and I do carry some metric. Later rigs have metric and whitworth. One of my buddies is rebuilding his engine out of his 78' 88 and it is all metric. I have the same engine but it is standard. Go figure. I agree with Leslie about the starter set. IMO, the craftsman is a great starter set. I recieved a "starter set" a while ago and I built up from there. Here is another thought on the subject: would you rather give your kid a fairly cheap craftsman set or throw down the money for some snap-on tools that just might get lost in some river in Virginia . You get what you pay for. Max T. Starting to dish out cash for good stuff | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 393 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I was browsing the snap-on site and couldn't find information on how to contact a local snap-on guy. Local yellow pages don't show anything either. What's the procedure to have a truck stop by?" Just call up Snap-on and ask for a truck to stop by your address. I doubt your local guy will stop by your house though. You'll probably have to order your stuff from the website. "would you rather give your kid a fairly cheap craftsman set or throw down the money for some snap-on tools that just might get lost in some river in Virginia" I'd let my kid use my Snap-on tools. I'm not a father, but if I were I would try to be a good one and raise my child as a civilized member of society. I don't want to raise some shit-head monkey degenerate. If my kid abuses the tools, then he doesn't deserve to use any tools at all. Not even Craftsman. He can wrench with his fingers and teeth for all I care until he gets his act together. | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks John (LOL). That is exactly what happened to me. I got the starter set for my 14th birthday. I haven't lost anything but they have been through rough stuff. When something happens like submerging my entire tool bag (I have all of my stuff in a massive bucket boss bag) I don't worry too much. I just took them out and dried them then put em' back. I like the fact that most of it doesn't rust. Of course pliers and such aren't waterproof so they require extra attention. Also my dad hated when I "borrowed" his tools. Any of them! From snap-on to 55 cent tools he didn't want me touching them. Even though I put them all back. FWIW I don't think air ratchets like water too much. Max T. Kid with craftsman set | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Senior Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 422 Registered: 01-2003 |
Oh man, I carry that snap ring puller with in my truck on trails just in case I need it. My tool bag is giant, so why does my damn truck still break down? Are we discussing what tools you need in a home shop or on the trail? Because I think you need tools to fix anything on a trail, including a snap ring tool to repair or diagnose a blown cv. If I would have to weld a Snap On wrench to a tie rod to get home, it would be cheaper than calling an offroad tow truck. Or if your somewhere super remote that snap on wrench welded to your tie rod could save your ass. Fix what you broke how every you can is sometimes how it goes. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1004 Registered: 09-2002 |
Andy, you might as well carry - what, gear puller, harmonic balancer puller, bearing puller, etc. etc. It's only a matter of time when you come across something that broke and you don't have the right tool for the job, so you'll have to improvise. Sure if welding a $30 wrench to something is what makes a difference between a ride home and spending a night in snow, there's no question about it; but doing it once or twice is different from doing it often. My vote goes for the best in the garage tool chest, and Husky or like for trail use. | ||
| Alex Cabrera (Alexcabrera) Member Username: Alexcabrera Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2002 |
Speaking of tools... My old man used to love his Craftsman tools. He said it was easy to head to sears in case they broke or needed a different tool. This was years ago when he used them for light wrenching. Now that he runs his Trucking business he got a set of Snap-On... big ole honkers... 3/4 inch wrenches etc. I asked him if he had ever broken a Snap-On as he did with the old Craftsman and he said sure. Things break due to usage (not abuse) and he made a comment on the quality. He said that that Snap-Ons he broke became Craftmans in a later life. This was funny comment from an ex-die-hard Craft user. Get the right tool for the right job. BTW.. he just bought a 600lb/ft torque wrench to have as his mechanic just got thru rebuilding his Detroit 60 series engine. I thought wrenching on the Disco was tough... I guess trucks do have a lot more space/room to work in. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 394 Registered: 03-2003 |
What's the big deal about carrying snap-ring pliers? They're not big at all. They're the same size as regular pliers and a lot smaller than something like Vise Grips. I carry snap-ring pliers in my trail tool kit. "The obvious question here - what would you be willing to sacrifice? I can't possibly see a Snap-On wrench to be welded to a bent trailing arm - but I'd have no remorse cutting off one end of an LesserBrand tool if I need a shortie to work in confined space." If that's what I had to do to get home, and assuming I have a welder on my truck (which I don't) and assuming I know how to weld (I don't), I wouldn't hesitate welding a Snap-on wrench onto a track rod or something. It's not the end of the world. It's just a wrench. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1006 Registered: 09-2002 |
My personal problem with snap-ring pliers is that I lose the little box with the bits. I used it as an example of something handy but not absolutely necessary. Likewise, losing a wrench, even an expensive and nice-looking one, isn't a tragedy - but if it happened to me several times on a single trip, I'd probably revised the policy on what do I take along. | ||
| John (Jroc) Member Username: Jroc Post Number: 148 Registered: 08-2002 |
"Both our Matco and Snap-on guys live really close to the EE shop" John, I'd live really close to you too if I made that much money off of you!!! Shit, I'm surprised they haven't worked a deal where they park a truck in front of EE and stop bye once a week to restock it and settle your account!!!!! Just givin you shit dude! My opinion of snap-on is, I can't really afford to buy there stuff, but I can't really afford not to! Snap-On = Very expensive and Very Very worth it! I still have my grandfathers 1/2" Ratchet Nobody makes tools like they used to, NOBODY!!! | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 395 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I'm surprised they haven't worked a deal where they park a truck in front of EE and stop bye once a week to restock it and settle your account!!!!!" It's actually worse than I made it out to be. Joe Rigonan, the Snap-on guy, stops by twice a week. His regular days are Wednesday and Saturday. Joe stops by on Wednesday afternoons. He also stops by the shop on Saturday after his daily run and likes to chitchat about tools and the Land Rover business. I actually hooked his ass into buying a yellow Luminox watch and three Benchmade knives. Hehe, the drug dealer gets a taste of his own medicine. Rene Pauer, the Matco guy, actually stops by twice every single day. His wife owns the cafe in front of the EE shop, and Rene stops by for breakfast and for lunch. Every damn day. This is the very definition of temptation. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2276 Registered: 10-2001 |
how do you buys feel about Mac Tools? we do about 50/50 here between Mac and Snap-On. service is the same and it has really come down to which driver/salesperson you trust and like more. the one not constantly trying to 'upsell' on everything. | ||
| George Collins (Zinhead) New Member Username: Zinhead Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2001 |
Does Snap-on make duct tape? | ||
| Dan Ratcliffe (Dan_ratcliffe) New Member Username: Dan_ratcliffe Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2003 |
Man, the best thing that happened in my tool life was when the missus bought me a Craftsman rolling tool box. I am incredibly lazy about putting a way my tools. Too often they ended up rolled up in a rag and tossed on the bench. Having that tool box right where I am, holding all the various nuts and bolts as well as tools makes the work sooooo much easier. Some one earlier asked about series bolts and nuts. This site has some great info. http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Whitworth_BSF_BA.htm Some times it is not metric or what we know as standard. This searching for the right tool has driven me to distraction on occasion. It also causes me to have to duplicate some tools. As you read you can see that even thread pitches are different. This makes stripping nuts and bolts very easy to do! Man, I did love the main post on the Snap-on tools. Envy. Envy. Envy. Makes me want to hide my King Tony tools from the local tractor supply store. :-) Dan | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 396 Registered: 03-2003 |
I have no experience with MAC tools. Probably my main comment about MAC tools is that they look cheesy. They don't look as nice as Matco or Snap-on tools. Also, MAC doesn't offer nearly as many options as Snap-on or Matco. My strong preference is for Snap-on, with Matco far behind. However, Matco offers a lot of different items that Snap-on doesn't offer. That is probably Matco's greatest strength. I wouldn't go with MAC unless I was desperate. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2278 Registered: 10-2001 |
then of course there is OTC. they make tools for lots of other tool makers as well. our Mac Mentor scan tool is made by them. very nice scan tool BTW. majority of our shop tools and diagnostic equip are Snap On though. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1335 Registered: 04-2002 |
While I would love to have all Snap-on tools, I would still suggest anyone on a Craftsman budget take a look at the KOBALT wrenches. They are made by a division of Snap-on and sold at Lowes. Price wise, they are similar to craftsman, but I think they are much better. While they are not Snap-on, I realize that, they are a step up from craftsman if that's what your budget dictates. http://www.kobalttools.com/ gp | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2279 Registered: 10-2001 |
yep. just bought a set for my dad for his b-day. seem nice. have yet to wrench on them. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 403 Registered: 03-2003 |
Jack has asked what tools are desirable or necessary to have in one's tool set. I've listed some things that we have in our tool box. Others like Andy and Greg have given their input with things like hub sockets and fill plug drivers. However, it really is impossible to list it all. This is especially so because one person's needs will necessarily differ from another's. What suits Smith may not suit Jones. Rather than trying to list individual tools that one may require for a "good" or "complete" tool set, it might be better to list the principles on which a good tool set are based. With a solid foundation, one can build a tool set that suits him and his needs perfectly. There are several principles on which a solid tool set is based. Every owner of a solid tool set practices or aspires to or relies upon the following: (1) CLEANLINESS: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/wash.jpg (2) INNOVATION: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/creeper.jpg (3) HARD WORK: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/garage.jpg (4) FUN: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/pool.jpg (5) REDUNDANCY: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/bed.jpg (6) SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/adam.jpg If you exercise good judgment and acquire your tools according to these principles, you will go far. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 357 Registered: 04-2003 |
LOFL | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1023 Registered: 09-2002 |
Awesome, John, you made my day! | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2002 |
damn... those principles... no wonder why snap-on kicks ass... LOL i'v got the 6th principle covered... workin on the other 5. i'v been looking for a socket set and finally decided to spent $200 bucks on a set of 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" sockets from metrinch: http://www.cooltoolsets.com/index.html these are nice and handy to carry on board for the fact that you don't need to carry one set of metric and another of SAE. quality in craftsmanship is far behind snap-on but only time will tell if this will last as long as a snap-on would. for the long run, i'd build on a snap-on set for the garage. just because you can't have this: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06436.jpg and u do this: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/catalog.asp?id=1 the later action is just as addictive and easy to end up with one of these: http://www.necessiteesapparel.com/rangie/snapon/DSC01179.JPG or a few of these: http://www.necessiteesapparel.com/rangie/snapon/DSC01185.JPG good luck everyone. happy wrenchin. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 818 Registered: 02-2003 |
han i have the metrinch and never use them. they are too sloppy and there are too many degree's of rotation before it starts to turn. especially useless are the wrenched, for the same reason as above but magnified. the chrome started pealing from the bottom of my ratchet too, it was cutting into me badly so i had to take it to the wire wheel. i have yet to break one of the tools but i think it's becaue i rarely use them.like you ifigured one set in the car will be more efficient, but damn if you have to use it out in the field you'll be unhappy. i can mail you out my set and you can use it for a while to see if you like it. it's just sitting here now. rd | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2002 |
rob, too late. i'v used them before and i think you just have to get used to them. i only have the sockets not the wrenches. i decided to "kick it up a knotch" on the wrenches: http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/sgrrclm10t.jpg thanks for the offer though. | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 223 Registered: 08-2002 |
Han those ratchet ended wrenches are the bomb-diggity! My brother-in-law has a set of polished craftsman ones .. used them last night installing rear spring retainers and they were awesome! | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
the matco wrenches are very slim, polished, light weight and well made. except for taste and smell... it's very pleasing in sight, touch, and sound. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1346 Registered: 04-2002 |
Why would you need to carry SAE wrenches in the truck? Are there any SAE bolts on the Rovers? All I've found so far are Metric, but I have not touched much of the truck to be honest. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 821 Registered: 02-2003 |
han, you care to give me a part number on that kit? i think those tools personally are the most usefull in my kit. i like the "gear-wrench" brand myself but i have no experience with the matcho stuff. the thing i like best about the gear wrench ones are that they put a small flange on the driver so that the head of the bolt doesnt slide thru. rd | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2002 |
matco or macho... which one is it man... LOL part number SGRRCLM10T http://www.matcotools.com/Catalog/toolcatalog.jsp?cattype=T&cat=2539&select then just click "add to cart" LOL | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 404 Registered: 03-2003 |
Rob, The Matco part number on Han's 10-19mm set is SGRRCLM10T. You can see the set on Matco's site at: http://www.matcotools.com/Catalog/toolcatalog.jsp?cattype=T&cat=2539&select Gearwrench? As Kyle would say, "did you hit your head?" Toss that junk in the garbage where it belongs. I wouldn't bother with that stuff. I've never used the Gearwrenches but I've seen the Gearwrench wrenches at the local hardware store and they look like junk. The Matco's are better in every way. The Matco Proswings are reversible, just like any good ratcheting wrench. The Gearwrench (at least the ones I've seen) is not. The selector on the Proswing is really nice to use and has a very positive feel. Unlike the Blue-Point or some other gear wrenches that I've seen, it's not possible to put the selector in the middle position and then spin the box end. The Matco is positive enough that as soon as you turn the box end, the selector will automatically go to either forward or reverse (depending on which way you turn the box end). The Gearwrench (at least the ones I've seen) are not reversible. This is a huge disadvantage. Sure, you can turn the wrench over to switch ratcheting directions on the box end, but this also means there is zero angle in the box end. That is, the box end is in line with the handle and not bent like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06548.jpg If you are wrenching on a flat surface, you have zero finger/knuckle clearance on the wrench's handle. Imagine you are wrenching on something like this: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06550.jpg If there is zero angle on the box end, your fingers will always want to hit the gutter. All good combination wrenches have angle on the box end like so: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06552.jpg The straight box end will really limit the utility of the Gearwrench combination wrenches. The combination wrench is by its very nature a general-purpose tool. The open end does not drive nearly as well as a box end, but you sometimes need the open end to reach fasteners that cannot be accessed with a box end. The combination wrench is designed so that it can turn as many different fasteners as possible. Having a combination wrench without any angle on the box end is a joke I think. It's about as lame as having the open end point straight forward. The Matco Proswings also feature the Matco Opti-Torque open end. This is similar in concept to the Flank Drive Plus profile found on some Snap-on open ends. You can sort of see the Opti-Torque jaws on the wrench in this photo: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05888.jpg The Opti-toque drives the fastener on the flats rather than the points, even on an open-ended wrench. Once you use a Snap-on Flank Drive Plus or a Matco Opti-Torque, you can never really go back to parallel jaws on an open-ended wrench. Parallel jaws want to flower open under load and tend to slip more than the Flank Drive Plus or Opti-Torque open ends. The primary difference between Flank Drive Plus and Opti-Torque is that the Flank Drive Plus profile exists on both sides of the open jaws and the system works both ways: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05771.jpg The Opti-Toque profile works only one way. If you want to wrench hard the other way with the Opti-Torque, you have to flip over the wrench before reversing directions. This may sound like a pain but I don't think it is. And I would rather do this any time than to wrench with an open end with parallel jaws. Also note in the penultimate pic that the Matco Proswing is the same length as the Flank Drive Plus. That, the Proswing is "standard" length. The Taiwan wrenches are almost always shorter. They are made out of cheapo materials and aren't as strong as the Matco or Snap-on wrenches. The Gearwrenches are made shorter so that you can deliver less torquing force and you are thus less likely to bend or break them. If it matters to you, the Matco wrenches are made in the USA while the Gearwrench stuff is made in Taiwan. According to our Snap-on guy, the Matco Proswings are the only gear wrenches on the market that are made in the USA. If you're broke and can't afford the Matco's, get the Craftsman combination gear wrenches instead of the Gearwrench stuff. I've seen the Craftsman ones and they're not bad. They're not at the level of the Matco's, but at least they're bent and reversible. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 405 Registered: 03-2003 |
Oh, one more thing. I think a Flank Drive Plus or Opti-Torque open end is very important on these gear wrenches. The ratcheting box ends are not designed for heavy torque, and you're actually supposed to break the fastener loose with the open end. Using the ratcheting box end to break tight fasteners will stress the very small ratcheting mechanism and could cause it to snap. This procedure is the opposite of the standard procedure with a non-ratcheting combination wrench, where you should use the box end whenever possible on a tight fastener. The box end drives the fastener on six sides instead of only two. This problem is compounded by the nature of the open jaws and how they want to spread open under load. Thus, you're less likely to round a very tight fastener with the box end than with the open end. Because you should be breaking tight fasteners with the open end on a gear wrench, having the Flank Drive Plus or Opti-Torque profile on the open is thus of far greater importance on a gear wrench than on a traditional combination wrench. As far as I know, only Matco offers the gear wrench with some kind of flat-driving profile on the open end. Craftsman, Blue-Point, Gearwrench etc. all have parallel jaws on the open end. | ||
| Wes Legaspi (Wes) Member Username: Wes Post Number: 162 Registered: 02-2002 |
Hmmm...Kobalt or Craftman? Which is better? thanks | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 825 Registered: 02-2003 |
john, you need to check out the new gearwrenches at lowes or somethng. they hae the 15 deg offset and they have the cap stop feature that prevents the head from comming thru. i took the pepsi challenge with cresent x craftsman x gearwrench and loved the gear wrench in comparison. these were the only brands i could find locally. specifically the reversing mechanism on the gear wrench was more intuitive than the other brands and i could not see my self accdentally reversing it as easily as the cresent brand. sears brand was just too clunky. the excuse that taiwanese materials are less than american quality is coming to its end as they improve their processes. i can see the effects of chinese tungsten carbide all the time. and my visit to penang island in malaysia a few years ago showed me how well asian quality can be, that said, i do support american made as it's in my best interest. i'll buy one loose wrench from matco and add it to my collection, i have a feeling it will finally be the level of quality i've been looking for. i'd prefer if both ends are boxends rather than one end flankdrive and the other gear because in due time i'mm going to purchase the snap on set. i'll take some pics of each tool and do a comparison when it arrives. rob | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2002 |
u see... "add to card" clikin action here... bamm! rob, after you get your matco wrench, your next visit to lowes will only be good for the gardening stuff... LOL | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 410 Registered: 03-2003 |
"they hae the 15 deg offset and they have the cap stop feature that prevents the head from comming thru." Oh shit, you're right. Gearwrench went uptown. I just checked Northern Tool and found the following: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=697 0&langId=-1&catalogId=4006970&PHOTOS=on&TEST=Y&productId=747281&categoryId=0 What is this cap stop feature that prevents the head from coming through? Is there a flange or something on one side of the ratcheting box that encapsulates the fastener or something? Does it prevent you from flipping the wrench over to grain clearance from the 15-degree bend in the box end? | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 828 Registered: 02-2003 |
yes, the wrench will not work if flipped upside down. it's a trade off. but i do not remember using one of these tools in the wrong direction since i was a kid. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 415 Registered: 03-2003 |
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK! | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 830 Registered: 02-2003 |
if matco does not have the cap stop feature there is no question which one i like better. when is the last time you were using your ratcheing box end wrench with a 15deg offset and wished you could flip the bad boy upside down? rarely. this is why i need, conventional flat style, 15 deg offset with capstop and stubby with 15%%D offset and no capstop. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 419 Registered: 03-2003 |
I "flip" angled wrenches all the time. There is often a clearance problem on the wrenches and I have to flip the wrench to make the clearance either for the handle or my knuckles. It's actually very common. I find this angled feature much more useful than some kind of capstop feature. I almost always thread on a fastener by hand first, and then use the wrench or ratchet or driver after that. The probability of cross threading is very high if you don't thread on a fastener by hand first. The only time I use a wrench or ratchet or driver to thread on a fastener is when I have absolutely no other choice. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1359 Registered: 04-2002 |
Rob, You might as well make the wrench you order from matco or snap-on, an 11mm ratchet wrench, because unless something changed, gear wrench nor sears had the 11mm available. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 376 Registered: 04-2003 |
Are those gearwrenches available without the cap stop? That's a great price for a set of ratcheters. I, too, flip the angled wrenches all the time. In addition to alleviating clearance issues, flipping can delay hand fatigue. Flipping also lets you reach for additional fasteners without repositioning yourself. LOL, just flipped an angled wrench this morning while checking exhaust bolts before coming into the office... | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1360 Registered: 04-2002 |
Oh wow. That set does appear to include an 11mm. Cool. I had to pick up a blue point 11mm wrench from the snap-on website because that was all that was available in a ratchet wrench when I was looking............ at least that was the only one I could find at the time. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 421 Registered: 03-2003 |
Greg, just out of curiosity, what did you use your 11mm wrench on? I don't remember ever using an 11mm wrench or socket, so I just checked the toolbox to make sure. All of our 11mm sockets and wrenches are brand spanking new. Blue, perhaps we should quit using the word "flip" while talking about our wrenching techniques. Mark Reeves might get offended. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 377 Registered: 04-2003 |
aren't the brake line bolts 11mm? and good point Mr. Lee, I apologize. I meant to say, "I, too, Filipino the angled wrenches all the time." | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1361 Registered: 04-2002 |
Well, now that you ask me, I don't exactly remember John, although I know I've used it a few times on my truck. I'll check around tonight if I get a chance to see what I might have used it on. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1362 Registered: 04-2002 |
AH......... Give that man a cigar.............. Yes, that's where I used them I believe..... When I did a spring/shock change to remove the brake line bolt. However, that may not be when I used it. LOL For the life of me I don't really remember what I was doing when I ordered the wrench, but I had recently done something and cussed the whole time because that was the one ratchet wrench I didn't have, and I had misplaced my 11mm socket. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 422 Registered: 03-2003 |
OK, good to know there's something on the truck that is 11mm. I hate having tools in the box that I fear we may never use but we bought anyway just in case. We usually buy things like sockets, wrenches, and screwdriver bits in sets to cover possibilities. Things can get expensive this way, and there are many items you may never even use. Things like 11mm or 16mm sockets and wrenches just piss me off. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1363 Registered: 04-2002 |
I know I have regularly used the 10mm, 15mm, 18mm & 19mm wrenches on my truck, but there was the one time that I needed the 11mm. It always pisses me off when you go to buy a set of tools that skips a few of the range........ like the 11mm........ yet they don't sell one on an individual basis. Looks like the gear wrench set now is available as a complete set. I will be ordering a posidrive bit to have around for future use though. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 834 Registered: 02-2003 |
well guys you want the 15 deg offset than talk about the clearance issue, thats why i want the stubby in 15 deg without the capstop. having dissasemble my parts car and then bolted half of it to my truck throught the winter. ther was one underlying thing i wished i had, that's the capstop. you guys do differnt kind of wrenching than i do. your trucks are in california and are not 15 years old... hehe, my truck you don't really start a bolt with your fingers. you get it going then wrench it on. it's the sad truth. a good example of where the cap stop feature is convenient is when taking the cylindrical air box off of a RRC. there are two bolts under the maf that need unscreewed. naturally mine are totaly rusty becasue of my environment. i PB'blast them and then start wrenching. as the nut gets half way off i still have to wrench becasue it's to rusty to do by hand and there is a lack of room for a socket. if you dont have the gear wrench with cap stop this becomes a pain in the ass. and for $100 you can have a pretty nice set there. hehe john, you know it's helpful. as for flipping the wrench, i use my wrist | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 379 Registered: 04-2003 |
oh, that capstop is cool, don't get me wrong. it's a bitch trying to stay aligned on the nut, especially when you can see what your'e doing. ideally you get a set with capstop & a set without. all snap-on, too. LOL or maybe removeable capstops somehow? | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 423 Registered: 03-2003 |
"john, you know it's helpful" Big time. I don't deny that feature can be helpful. Few things are more annoying than dropping a fastener and having to spend half an hour fishing it out of some crevice with a telescoping magnet. But I use the 15-degree angle a lot more than some capstop feature. I think combination wrenches (one open end, one box end, the open end flat but the with the jaw angled 15 degrees, the box angled 15 degrees) are by their very nature general-purpose tools. They do a lot of things but they don't do everything especially well. They're sort of like "jack of all trades, master of none" type of tools. I can live with that. But I would rather have angle in the box end than a capstop feature because I use the angle a lot more than the capstop. This is especially so on a general-purpose tool like a combination wrench. If I were in your shoes, I would just live with the non-capstop wrench on your airbox application or I would buy a speciality tool rather than limit all of my gear wrenches to the capstop handicap. This is especially so if you're going with Gearwrench or other Taiwan brand, as that one speciality wrench will probably set you back only $10 or something. "It always pisses me off when you go to buy a set of tools that skips a few of the range........ like the 11mm........ yet they don't sell one on an individual basis." Agreed. Trying finding a 7mm allen bit. Some places have them but they are generally very hard to find. The Heckler & Koch MSG90 buttstock uses a black-anodized aluminum 7mm allen fastener. Use any other bit and this soft POS is history. Even with the correct bit this POS gets mangled. I couldn't adjust my MSG90 buttstock for a few months because I couldn't find a 7mm allen bit. Later on, I sold the buttstock to someone else and he used an SAE allen bit on it. The result was unpretty to say the least. Oh the horror. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 381 Registered: 04-2003 |
The result was unpretty to say the least. Oh the horror. hmmmmmm.....sounds like my 11 mm brake line bolts and up there I meant to say especially when you can't see what your'e doing | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2002 |
maybe someday i'll go through my rangie top to bottom(front to back) and swap all nuts and bolts to metric so i only have to buy the metric sets of flank drive snap-on sockets... wait... i'll still need some SAE sockets to remove whatever there is in SAE... LOL | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 845 Registered: 02-2003 |
so i went around looking and comparing the gear wrench type tools again. things i notice. gear wrench brand has tooling marks on the open end section. looks like it's plated crome rather than polished to mirror. also i discovered this http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=697 0&langId=-1&catalogId=4006970&PHOTOS=on&TEST=Y&productId=200115824&categoryId=14 84 sears brand does look like the quality is a bit better but still not impressive. my main question is, are the snap-on and matco tools crome plated then polished or are they taking the time to polish the real metal? i absolutly hate the way my crome is chipping off of my metrinch stuff. rd | ||
| Blue (Blue) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Blue Post Number: 401 Registered: 04-2003 |
I'd be very surprised if they were plated. Have to be a genuine polish. John, where are you man? We need an article on Snap-on finishing | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 433 Registered: 03-2003 |
"my main question is, are the snap-on and matco tools crome plated then polished or are they taking the time to polish the real metal?" I have no real idea but I would guess that they polish the metal, then plate the stuff, and then polish again before packaging. Lots of the Snap-on stuff is engraved, roll marked, or punch marked, and I would think that unless the stuff was polished before plating, the displaced metal around the engravings would poke through the chrome if it weren't removed prior to plating. You can definitely see rounded edges around the engravings and such where the polishing wheel removed the burrs and displaced material. On guns this is considered the mark of a hack polisher but on tools I would think that it doesn't even matter. Nowadays who knows. Snap-on might toss the tools into a tumbler to remove the sharp edges and burrs, then polish, and then finish. Our Snap-on guy is always bragging about how Snap-on hand tools feature what he refers to as a "double nickle chrome" finish while most other tools are plated with a single layer of chrome. I'm not sure if this means the white steel is plated first with a layer of nickel and then with a layer of chrome, or if there are two separate but identical layers of nickel/chrome mixed together. I don't see any yellowish tint in the Snap-on tools though, so if there is nickel in the topmost layer it's very small. BTW, a peeling Snap-on tool is sufficient cause for return/warranty of the tool, at least by our Snap-on guy. I already asked him about it once and he said absolutely no problem. | ||
| David Woo (Davidwoo) New Member Username: Davidwoo Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2003 |
Used to work in a metal fab shop in college: we did a lot of plating of all types on our pieces: chrome, nickel, cadmium, brass, cad iridite.... As I remember, the metal piece is sanded and the polished, using progressive grits and polishes. When the piece was ready, it was a piece of art, absolutely smooth. If I remember this right, the first step in chrome plating was the neutralizing wash, then a rinse. Next was a dip into the copper tank, because the copper chemically develops a firm bond with steel. Next was a dip into the nickle tank, because the nickel bonds well to the copper. Finally was a dip into the chromium tank, because it bonds well to the nickle. The double nickle layer must be a SnapOn method to get a more durable final layer. I don't remember any polishing between coats, but there may have been some. This manner of chrome plating is labor extensive, and there are quicker methods today. A friend is restoring an old Camaro now, and he is insisting that the shop do it the old fashioned way. fwiw DW | ||
| Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht) Member Username: Markalbrecht Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just go for the gusto -- 22K gold plated tools. Although they're from Craftsman. Here's the link which for some reason only works if you cut and paste it in the browser address window: http://www.sears.com/sr/product/summary/productsummary.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0900136797.1062694198@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccieadcjfjflhmecehgcemgdffmdflh.0&vert ical=SEARS&bidsite=CRAFT&pid=00946566000 BTW -- I'm only joking. |
