| Author | Message | ||
     Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 197 Registered: 03-2002 |
I’ve read a lot lately about Facom tools, mostly on other boards, and in the Griot’s catalog. Just wondering about their overall quality and design. The obvious differences I can see are the Facom's finish not being chrome (even my old Craftsman have not rusted), Facom's plastic grip (not sure how that fits into tight areas, or if it will loosen during hard use), and Facom's reverse mechanism is a bezel-like ring around the head of the ratchet (my old Craftsman is similar, and it’s a pain in the ass to reverse w/ greasy hands). But, much is being claimed for their 72 tooth / 5 degree design (vs. Snap-on 36 tooth / 10 degree), and “palm control” (which you can do with Snap-on as well, since the head of their ratchets are very clean in design). Snap-on also appears to be user serviceable, whereas Facom is not. Their sockets are also not chromed, but do have a design similar to flank drive. The Facom wrenches appear not close to Snap-on in design and quality, most having the Flank Drive feature only on the box end, with no option for the open end, and a satin vs chrome finish. But, Facom seems to be priced about ˝ that of Snap-on..... To me, made in USA, lever-operated reverse mechanism, user seviceable, and the quality of finish in Snap-on products outweigh Facom's price advantage, but thought I would get other comments from those that had used both. | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2002 |
sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. both are nice but the snapon "feel" better in the hand. marc | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 198 Registered: 03-2002 |
Thanks Marc - I have  | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 444 Registered: 03-2003 |
I have never used the Facom stuff, but I've examined it and played with it. It's not bad stuff. But it's at the level of Snap-on. Take the ratchets for example. Facom fans are always talking about the five-degree reset on the Facom ratchets. The Facom ratchet is much touted because it has a five-degree reset whereas the usual Snap-on ratchet has a 10-degree reset. But the Facom fans conveniently ignore the fact that Snap-on sells pear-head five-degree ratchets as well: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=15224&group_ ID=225&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog Snap-on also offers long-handle options on the same ratchet: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=15226&group_ ID=225&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog Big deal. Frankly, I prefer the standard high-strength sealed ratchet from Snap-on: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=54379&group_ ID=12898&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog I have never considered 10-degree reset to be a disadvantage. I would much rather have a stronger ratchet that was sealed than a non-sealed five-degree ratchet. For example, we have a multi-position ratchet: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06522.jpg By its very nature, this ratchet is designed for use in tight spots. Snap-on offers this multi-position ratchet in both the 10-degree high-strength sealed type and the five-degree non-sealed pearhead type. Even though this ratchet is intended for use in tight spots, we chose the high-strength sealed head over the non-sealed 72-tooth pear-head. In fact, all of our ratchets are the high-strength sealed type: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC06642.jpg All of the high-strengh sealed ratchets feature a very ergonomic selector: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05738.jpg This selector is very easy to reverse with the thumb: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05739.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05740.jpg Simply turn the selector toward the direction you want the fastener to turn and start cranking. It's very simple and very intuitive. It's also much more ergonomic than turning a dial, or even worse, a small bezel. The high-strength sealed ratchets are also sealed against contamination: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05741.jpg There are O-rings surrounding both the selector and the anvil. Dirt does not get into this ratchet. Spill brake fluid on your ratchet? Not a problem. Work on a truck that has mud encrusted all over the place and your ratchet gets covered with particulate matter? Not a problem. The ratchet stays clean and lasts much longer than a non-sealed type. Just wipe it down after use and your maintenance for that ratchet is done. Another reason I prefer Snap-on over Facom is choice of ratchets available. Just take a look at: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/Pro.asp?tool=all&Group_ID=12898&Group_name=High+S trength+Sealed+Head%2C+chrome&Cat_ID=1913211&Cat_NAME=3%2F8%22+Drive&Sub_Cat_ID= 1914192&Sub_Cat_NAME=Ratchets&store=snapon-store Those are the high-strength sealed ratchets that Snap-on offers. Snap-on also offers other types of ratchets. I believe Snap-on offers more choices than any other manufacturer. For those of you who are obsessed with five-degree this or 10-degree that, MAC offers a zero-degree ratchet: http://www.mactools.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ItemNum=XR8PAZ | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 199 Registered: 03-2002 |
Good points John Given the similarities in price between Craftsman and Facom, I'd probably lean toward Craftsman for the convenience factor alone, you can always find a Sear's around. Wrenched today w/ Snap-on 3/8" locking flex head ratchet - best $90 I've ever spent for a tool. Between that and the stubby flex, not sure I'll use my regular drive anymore.... | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 448 Registered: 03-2003 |
Once you use a Snap-on tool, you never go back. | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 451 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL. How timely. FYI FACOM stuff IS chromed, just not the combination wrenches. The ratchets, sockets, pliers, etc. are all chrome. The only real shortcoming FACOM has is availability. There are only really two US dealers and neither actually offer the complete line. The line is very extensive (they've been making tools for quite some time) it just isn't marketed in the US. Admittedly, this is a pretty big deal if you need a certain tool to get a job done now. NOW, craftsman vs FACOM? There is no comparison at all. SNAP-ON vs FACOM, that's a worthwile debate. IF you must compare craftsman to a European brand try Heyco, Hazet, Knipex or Stahlwille. John raises some good points about sealed bearings, but in terms of "feel" I personally prefer the FACOM ratchet for its slim design and smooth action as well as rubber grip. Whatismore, I like the bezel action because, again, it keeps things from being too bulky. Not really technical issues, just matters of preference. I only recently learned that SNAP-ON offers a rubberized ergonomic grip similar to FACOM for screwdrivers and similar tools. I found the older square plastic SNAP-ON less appealing both to the eye and hand so I look at this change as a big plus for SNAP-ON. For me, If I desperately need a specific tool to complete a project I'll call the SNAP-ON guy, but for building my tool collection I'll be ordering FACOM. To each his own... | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 869 Registered: 02-2003 |
damn, that mac 0 deg is nice. i could have used that more than a few times... | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 216 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi I am a huge owner and fan/collector of Snap-on tools, but I have to say, I feel some of their pliers are a tad disappointing, so be careful and don`t knock Knipex, even Snap-on sell these under their blue point label. Take a look at both cobra and alligator, tools that don`t fail to grip. Knipex are easily as good if not better than Snap-on for pliers in my opinion. What is good is that their ranges compliment each other. Facom are sold here in the UK in autostores and while not bad, are nowhere near as good as Snap-on. Hazet are OK but also no comparison, although I have a few Hazet bits for servicing my BMW motorcycle, these are special tools recommended by BMW. I use all manner of specialist bits and pieces, the majority of every day items are Snap-on, but most of my pullers for example are made by Kukko. Snap-on makes some really fine tools, I love my KRL1001, but I often feel $6624 was expensive, and for most people this is simply unattainable. All the brands mentioned will do exactly what you require it to do, it will be nowhere near as tactile as a Snap-on wrench, nor as cutting edge, but it will take nuts off, what it all boils down to is how much money you are prepared to invest, all professionals tend to use Snap-on, it counts having a lifetime warranty, and a dealer who becomes a good friend, although always drinking your coffee. He will lend you tools, he will recommend tools, he will swap tools without moaning. This is what makes Snap-on the best. I feel this whole Snap-on thing is getting out of hand, what we are saying is that these are probably the best hand tools out there, we are NOT saying you MUST have them. Buy what works for you, but strive to own the best, whatever that may be. All the best Pete S | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 200 Registered: 03-2002 |
Very well said Peter... Facom is sold here (to my knowledge) through catalog and internet only, so I can't go into a store and actually see them. And, you don't see them in professional garages like you do Snap-on and Mac. Jack - thanks for the correction on the finish, don't know why I thought they were not chromed. But as to Craftsman vs. Facom, the one argument I would make is that Snap-on markets and distributes it's tools in the exact same manner on a worldwide basis - through mobile dealers who visit professional mechanics. Facom's product positioning in the UK sounds like S-K (which is owned by Facom) in the US. Nice quality sold through traditional (but specialized) retail channels, much like Craftsman (and Husky, Kobalt, etc). It's the internet hype and slick catalog copy that presents Facom (IMO) as the benchmark in tool quality - which is why I posed the orginal question to those that had used both. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 449 Registered: 03-2003 |
Facom is far from being junk but it's not in the same league as Snap-on. In a nutshell, Facom is the Craftsman of Europe. | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2002 |
ah, so sk is owned by Facom. SK's don't look bad and price is pretty up there too. Anyone care to comment on SK's? there's an SK dealer near me and always wanted to go check it out. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 450 Registered: 03-2003 |
SK? You're shitting me, right? Look at your bitchin trail tool set: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01357.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01388.JPG http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01390.JPG http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01360.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01365.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01366.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01362.jpg You would contaminate this very nice set with some SK SKoop of shit? Check out: http://www.skhandtool.com/images/itemimages/3_8drive.jpg That's SK's "Professional" ratchet. Like all shit ratchets, it has that turn-to-reverse selector that I hate so much and knurling on the handle. These knurled ratchets remind me of bolt-action rifles with checkered bolt knobs. What was the maker thinking? And check out SK's "Teardrop" ratchet: http://www.skhandtool.com/images/itemimages/ACF3A4A.jpg Is it me, or is that a Craftsman "Professional" ratchet? Compare that pic above to this one: http://www.sears.com/data/product_images/tools/large/00944812000-dlv.jpg SK Tools? That probably stands for Super Korean Tools. What a hunk of shit. | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2002 |
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| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 874 Registered: 02-2003 |
lol, i love that knurled handle shit it rememinds me of those k-mart tool sets i had as a kid. you can actually feel the teeth in the ratchet bind with every pull. there was also a nut driver with the cheapest plastic handle in the set. on day it shattered from my ten year old arm twisting on it. damn huffy bike i was wrenching on as eaqually as shitty too. rd | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 155 Registered: 12-2002 |
i'm with peter, can't compare Knipex pliers to craftsmen or some Snapon plier. if you use them alot you'll find Knipex tool to be top notch... i own tons of snapon pliers, side cutters etc... and when i grab a plier set from my box it's always a Knipex (sold under Snapon and Mac) marc | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 452 Registered: 03-2003 |
"when i grab a plier set from my box it's always a Knipex (sold under Snapon and Mac)" Matco is also a big Knipex seller: http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/EPC10.jpg http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/EPNC8.jpg http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/pw10.jpg Lots of Matco's Knipex stuff isn't even rebadged like the Blue-Point stuff. It just says "KNIPEX" on it and sometimes it doesn't even say "MATCO" anywhere on the tool. OK, plier question for you plier lovers (I hate using pliers). This type of plier handle caught my eye: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=15524&group_ ID=760&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog Snap-on offers these pistol-grip type of pliers in many different configurations and for most of the specialty applications. With these type of pliers, I'm thinking I would have to cock my wrist less and also get a more comfortable tight grip because of the shape of the handle as compared to the pear shape on the mirror-image plier design. But I've never used this type of plier before, so I have no real idea. What do you guys think of these pistol-grip configuration pliers as opposed to the mirror-image designs? | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 201 Registered: 03-2002 |
"...SK Tools? That probably stands for Super Korean Tools. What a hunk of shit." Damn John, some of your lines are classics! I think this one tops the list of funniest. | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 202 Registered: 03-2002 |
And, looking at that breaker bar makes me wish I wouldn't have saved $20 on the industrial finish. Not too late for an exchange though! http://www.expeditionexchange.com/pelican/DSC01357.jpg | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 453 Registered: 03-2003 |
That breaker bar is a NAPA. It's actually really nice. I dig it. Yeah, you might want to exchange that industrial-finished breaker bar for the real deal. What's $20 on a breaker bar when you've decided to bite the bullet and go with Snap-on tools? They're really expensive to begin with, so you might as well spend that extra $15 or $20 on a particular tool to get the exact one your heart desires. If you don't, you might as well go to Sears and get a Craftsman breaker bar. | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2002 |
I'd never seen the industrial finish when I ordered it. Actually they should call it "unfinished rough ass fucking steel" - that would be more appropriate. Don't know WTF I was thinking...it's going back to the warehouse though. I have an ancient Craftsman 15" breaker, but decided to bite the bullet and order the 18". The dealer torqued the damn lugs on so tight I still need a pipe on the 18". | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 454 Registered: 03-2003 |
Snap-on also makes a 24" breaker bar: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05756.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05753.jpg To give you an idea how long that thing is, my tire is 33.7" tall and my rims are 16" in diameter. The price difference between 24" and 18" is minimal. Here's the 24": http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=63429&group_ ID=349&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog And here's the 18": http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=63580&group_ ID=349&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog I didn't recommend the 24" breaker bar to you previously because it's actually a little clumsy to use because it's so damn long. That might be a nicer match with your existing 15" breaker bar though. Better yet, dump that 15" breaker bar and get one of these ratchets to accompany your 24" breaker bar: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/snap-on/DSC05751.jpg That locking flex ratchet is 18" long, and pretty much obviates the need for a 15" or 18" breaker bar. | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2002 |
jack, thanks for the info. can you please recommend a jack parker standard breaker bar? now go easy on the price now. | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 204 Registered: 03-2002 |
Here you go: Basic: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=30395 Deelux: http://www.smarthome.com/9280.html When all else fails: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=5783&group_I D=592&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog | ||
| han chung (Hanchung) Member Username: Hanchung Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2002 |
oh damn... i think this does it for me... http://www.smarthome.com/images/9280big.jpg i can rest assured that it's really made in china... and it's right on the budget too. LOL | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 486 Registered: 09-2002 |
I think this is the one for me, the kids are always loosing the remote: http://www.smarthome.com/images/8109mainbig.jpg And stylish too | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 205 Registered: 03-2002 |
Steve, Get this for the other wrist, then you'll know if the kids are telling the truth about losing the remote. http://www.smarthome.com/9512.html Equally as stylish | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 877 Registered: 02-2003 |
damn, sharper image doesn't hold a flame to these guys. i need to get one of those lug nut removers. i hate to say it but i really want to see this thing in action. it follows all the aspects of the KISS principals. rd | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 157 Registered: 12-2002 |
hey John regarding the pistol grip line of pliers. well i would liken them to a "winch", you only need to use them once and it pays for itself, but i guess that can be said for most tools. the offset handles are really great for hard to reach areas that the standard plier/cutters won't go. i have that same set and i found the only down side is the lack of leverage. because of the offset the the leverage at the handles lessen. these are the tools that sit hidden in the box for weeks (sometimes months) until you remember that you have them , you use them once and then back in the box (again sometimes for months). marc | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 460 Registered: 03-2003 |
Hmmm, so they're not as suited for general-purpose use as I had hoped. Fuck it, I'm getting them anyway. LOL. | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 217 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi John Not sure about those pistol grip pliers myself, I believe they were really designed for line workers who suffer from repetitive strain injury. I was always taught to hold pliers with the little finger inside in order to open them up. I wouldn`t bother personally, now the stork range IS useful and has saved me numerous times. The plastic ratchet pistol grip screwdriver looks like someone left a standard one in the oven!! very phallic and always makes my wife laugh. might make Clinton weep though. Also Snap-on don`t bother taking the Knipex logo off there pliers either. John if I was you, I would test run a pair before purchase. Keep the faith. Pete S | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 461 Registered: 03-2003 |
Actually, the spring-loaded handles were one of the reasons I wanted to try the ergonomic pliers. I keep the pinky on the inside whenever I anticipate having to open the pliers in the immediate future, but whenever holding something securely I feel more comfortable moving the pinky to the outside of the handle. I've never used spring-loaded pliers before and the idea intrigues me. The spring could be one of those though things that ends up pissing me off more than helping. Time will tell. I'll borrow a set from the Snap-on guy and give them a one-week test run before purchasing. Thanks for the feedback. | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 463 Registered: 03-2003 |
Well, the Snap-on guy just came by. Forget the testing. I just saw and purchased. I swear, I don't I've ever stepped into that damn white truck without buying something. I bought the stork needlenose: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?search=true&item_ID=15584&PartNo=912a ep&group_id=761&store=snapon-store&tool=all and the stork cutters: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?search=true&item_ID=15592&PartNo=812a ep&group_id=763&store=snapon-store&tool=all I really like these pliers. The main thing I don't like about them is the clear laquer finish on the exposed steel. I would prefer white steel. But otherwise I'm happy. He didn't have the standard-sized versions of the pliers and cutters on board his truck. Those are on order. I also ordered the biggie plier wrench: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?search=true&item_ID=53395&PartNo=adp1 2&group_id=757&store=snapon-store&tool=all The plier fascination has begun. I hate using pliers, but these tools may make it fun. As with most things, time will tell. | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 159 Registered: 12-2002 |
welcome to the darkside John!!!! you'll love the knipex. the 7" is pretty handy too. and if you're manly enough: 22"cobras check here for other knipex, you'll shit on the prices: tool wherehouse-knipex marc | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2002 |
FWIW my Facom pliers have springs and I find it quite convenient. http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_2000&L2=L2_2010&SKU=F192 | ||
| John Lee (Johnlee) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Johnlee Post Number: 465 Registered: 03-2003 |
Wow, that place is really cheap. I bookedmarked it. I might buy the 7" and 10" plier wrenches from that place. I'm not sure though, because our Snap-on guy often buys old tools from us and gives us like $10 or so per tool, so the price difference starts to come down a bit. I might have to get the entire set of those Cobra Pliers though. They're dirt cheap and I don't think the Snap-on guy sells the Cobra pliers. I've seen the Alligator pliers on the truck and in the catalog, but I don't remember seeing the Cobra pliers at all. I don't even know why I want to buy this stuff though. I HATE using pliers. They're so imprecise. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL-because you're addicted! (Just remember that it's a business write-off and depreciable over 5 years) |
