| Author | Message | ||
     Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 285 Registered: 02-2002 |
Thought I would start a new thread on the technical aspects of LR3 http://www.thelandroverchronicle.com/new_page_431.htm At current currency rates - $53,000 to $86,592 in UK. | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 313 Registered: 08-2003 |
The top-selling engine in Europe is likely to be Land Rover's new, smooth and flexible 2.7-litre V6 turbodiesel (not available in North America), a common rail unit that uses variable geometry turbocharging. Aint that always the way - no diesel for the US  Jeff | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 286 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jeff, The landroverchronicle article only list the V6 as not for UK and US. This may imply that the 2.7L TDi will be offered in the US. | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 315 Registered: 08-2003 |
Would be nice if they do - that would be about the only saving grace for the new Land Rover Element  just got to hope this "design director Geoff Upex" does a better job on the next defender. Jeff | ||
| Felix Gumbiner (Felixthecat) Member Username: Felixthecat Post Number: 98 Registered: 02-2004 |
28,000 pounds for a base model. That's ridiculous. That's, what, almost 55 grand? | ||
| Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Koby Post Number: 1231 Registered: 02-2002 |
What's wrong with the current Defender? It's not a luxurious truck, but it's not intended to be. | ||
| Jack Leitch (Liveattheedge) Senior Member Username: Liveattheedge Post Number: 303 Registered: 12-2003 |
current defender new in the UK will cost you BASE PRICE $36,000. If you want to get an XS, or Black trim level it will take you waaay north of $40,000. Crazy money. Jack | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) New Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 34 Registered: 03-2004 |
300 hourses from a landy hehehe about time! come on ford! more more and more | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 287 Registered: 02-2002 |
Appears LR is staying with the BMW 4.4L V8 vs. the Jag 4.2L V8. The BMW V8 is off-road ready while the Jag would probably need some engineering work. They are going with the Jag/PSA diesel. There's hope. The diesel model is probably at the high end of the price range, ouch! | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 316 Registered: 08-2003 |
Koby - the curent defender is a work of art. But can you imagine what the new one will look like if they have the same design team responsible for d3 working on the new defender regards Jeff | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) New Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 34 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Off-Road Tech: Terrain Response system, operated by rotary switch, which lets drivers customize - traction control, anti-lock, transmission settings, locking differentials, hill descent control and suspension height - through one easy-to-use control. Electrically controlled clutch-type center and rear locking differentials, integrated with Terrain Response system, which decide for themselves when locking is appropriate." This off the UK site. This sounds a little bit better, although I don't like the sound of the Terrain Response systems "which decide for themselves when locking is appropriate." That's ok, as long as you can turn it off and decide for yourself which wheels to lock and when manually. I'm still leery of anything dependent on Rover electrics. Of course, there's no telling what we'll get in the US. LR has a nasty habit of eliminating lockers on US models because soccer moms inadvertently end up destroying their transaxels on the street with them -- consequently, LR thinks Americans are too stupid to use lockers. And, of course, there won't be any diesel in the US. Still, $55 - 87,000 for one of these things is extremely steep. It makes a $75,000 Mercedes G500 look like a bargain by comparison. I'd really like to hear Ford/LR's rationale for not bringing the 110 Defender CKD to the US. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 437 Registered: 02-2002 |
if this thing shows up with a sticker over $50k land rover might as well close their doors. this is the part that scares me: "which decide for themselves when locking is appropriate." if they "decide" via electronics, that will be a nitemare. As far the terrain response goes, my opinion is that the if truck were truly cabable from the get go, you wouldnt need a snappy dial with cool graphics and electric wizardry to get thru sand, mud or anything else. just my .02 | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2003 |
"That's ok, as long as you can turn it off and decide for yourself which wheels to lock and when manually. I'm still leery of anything dependent on Rover electrics. " Same arguement for an ARB vs. a Detroit really. Control over no control when locking. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 438 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Same arguement for an ARB vs. a Detroit really. Control over no control when locking." the difference is a detroit is mechanical, id imagine the LR3 will somehow be tied into its "terrain" system. The same argument over control vs auto locking can be made for the viscous thats been used since 89 in the range.. that actually works. I dont imagine we'll be seeing a viscous in the LR3 rearend. | ||
| Beau Campbell (Bcampbe7) New Member Username: Bcampbe7 Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2004 |
I'm sorry but I look at the LR3 and can't help but think Ford Explorer bred with an Escape... I can't wait to see one in person to maybe change my mind. Beau | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) New Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 38 Registered: 03-2004 |
It just occured to me, maybe the rational is to really grab the Mall-Runner crowd with the LR3 and then appease the wheelers in us with a true, no compromises Defender replacement? Something along the lines of the Wrangler Rubicon?? (only not quite such a flimsy POS) any thoughts? | ||
| Justin Kurosaki (Kurosaki) Member Username: Kurosaki Post Number: 67 Registered: 02-2004 |
James, Don't think we will get a real defender replacement any time soon... It is all about profits these days as well as being able to conform to US federal regulations. Hell, Ford Execs still think LR enthusists would actually buy a "Defender" if it was built on a common frame shared with Ford (like the Bronco concept built on the ESCAPE platform). Until LR is able to really improve their average MPG across the line, there won't be a Defender. Remember, since Land Rover only makes 3 vehicles in the states, they have a difficult time meeting the federal MPG limit (the Freelander is their saving grace). Sandy, The talk of the offroad rotary switch thingy reminds me of the Spinal Tap movie and the amp volume controls that go to "11"... That and the "turbo" switches that used to be on computers... Both were a joke. -justin | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 288 Registered: 02-2002 |
James - I had the same thought, move the positioning of the Discovery in order to make room for the Defender. Problem is the Defender is vapor ware here in the US. The LR3/Disco has some nice spec's, but looks way too pricey. It leaves a huge hole at the bottom for Jeep/Suzuki to eat them alive with simplicity and cost. The Freelander is not the answer. Looks like I'll be staying with D1's and RRC's for a long time. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) New Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2004 |
I agree we will never see a Defender like the D-90s and 110s that make us all drool like poisoned rats. But it is feasable we could see some form of Wrangler competitor. Ladder framed, solid axel wrangler-ish thing, with say a big v-6 derived from lopping off 2 of the Jag's cylinders, a drop top and woohoo! Hey, they built the Bronco to gauge public reaction, and we all know a replacement for the Ranger can't be far away. I might get drawn and quartered on this board for suggesting this, but a shortened Ranger frame could be just the ticket for re-introducing the "Defender", and as long as it had a proper suspension and gearing, I'd be happier than I am now, waiting for that LR3 abomination to arrive. lets be positive! all this doom and gloom has got me chewing Zyrtecs like popcorn! After all, Jaguar and Aston look to be doing ok. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 440 Registered: 02-2002 |
"After all, Jaguar and Aston look to be doing ok" you think? jag numbers suck.. and aston is so limited it doesnt really count. Ford watered and diluted jag much like they will here. Ford may have helped jags quality control but killed the alure of the brand. Jags used to be the "ceo" vehicle of choice, until ford rebadged a mondeo and made the cat available to anyone who can cough up 299 a month. A jag buyer wants exclusivity, he doesnt want to see a parking lot full of his workers who drive the same car as he. Maybe there sales numbers have been up, but its all x-type, and they make no bank on the x-types. Meanwhile, theyve alienated their core audience, you know the ones with money who are willing to pay more for an inferior product because of the badge. in short.. i hope to god ford has not used jag as benchmark with which to measure land rover. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 972 Registered: 02-2002 |
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=18047&make_id=625 NOTES DELIVERED BY MATTHEW TAYLOR AT THE NEW YORK AUTO SHOW "The new Land Rover LR3 is a new-generation vehicle. It represents what we think the Land Rover brand should stand for, the purest expression of 21st century Land Rover. Modern… high-technology… boldly designed…premium…a vehicle equally at home on the rough or on the smooth…a great driver’s car AND a great off-roader. The LR3 is the first production vehicle to get Terrain Response. Over time, you’ll see it across the Land Rover range." this intro speech fairly well sums it up on the LR direction for me. its making my restored/modified 109 look better and better everyday. Jaime | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 289 Registered: 02-2002 |
Gil - I'll have to disagree with you on Jag. I've followed Jag since I bought a 82' Series III in 1986 (for 17K with 26K miles:-) Love the vehicle. And I agree with you that Jag was the CEO vehicle of choice, back in the 70's and 80's. Remember the double-six! Then in 1987 they brought out the XJ-40 body style and also didn't keep up with the significant quality improvements of the auto industry. BMW 7-series became the CEO vehicle of choice. Lexus is trying but BMW still holds that spot. Then in 1989 Ford bought Jaguar. The initial impact was quality. But also note the syling. The current XJ has brought back the curves and sex appeal of Jag. While I still like the Series III, the new Jags with complete aluminum monoque are a work of art and are very reliable. Our VP drives a new Jag. Ford has done well with Jag. I'm hoping the LR3 styling evolves back to the Land Rover roots, the internals look good. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) New Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2004 |
Yeah Gil the numbers have been down, but I think most CEOs had been passing on Jag as of late because of the ancient XJ the were pushing for 15 years, not because of the X-type watering down the brand. Hell the Freelander didn't stop most of us from buying LR. | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 290 Registered: 02-2002 |
A few items from Jaime's link - height-adjustable fully independent air suspension ... - high- and low-range transmission that is electronically selected... - infinitely variable locking centre and rear diffs .... - 300bhp 4.4-liter Jaguar-sourced V8 engine, specially adapted for Land Rover..... - fully independent cross-linked air suspension.... - adaptive headlights that swivel with the steering. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 441 Registered: 02-2002 |
mid 70s to mid 80s jags are where its at, XJ6 or XJS.. thats a nice ride you have. Im not saying jag was "the ceo" vehicle of choice, but it did play toward the buyer in that "social class." Ford defintely improved quality, it couldnt have gotten any worse ;) I dont see how a rebadged sable and rebadged mondeo do anything for the brand though. Im surprised jag doesnt have an explorer/aviator/mountanieer to call its own. james.. granted an ancient product line didnt help anything for jag, but the reason the Freelander hasnt hurt LR is because they dont sell!! every time you turn on the tv you get slapped with an x-type commercial, and you see those cars everywhere. Id bet the majority of our population doesnt even know that freelander exists. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 973 Registered: 02-2002 |
good to see you read it Mark P. there is some very interesting information on the LR3 as well as LR in general in that speech. Jaime | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) New Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 35 Registered: 02-2004 |
"A few items from Jaime's link - height-adjustable fully independent air suspension ... (right, remember RRC's EAS system -- everybody I know has junked theirs in favor of regular shocks & coils). - high- and low-range transmission that is electronically selected... (dependent on Rover electrics? Wonder what color the failure light for this is on the dash -- purple?) - infinitely variable locking centre and rear diffs ....(you could accomplish the same with a simple cable like the existing CDL instead of another electrical gadget prone to failure). - 300bhp 4.4-liter Jaguar-sourced V8 engine, specially adapted for Land Rover.....(this is a positive, but you still won't get a diesel in the US). - fully independent cross-linked air suspension.... (so much for the superiority of solid axels that LR touted for years as their edge over the competition. See also EAS, above). - adaptive headlights that swivel with the steering." (big effing deal!). Aside from the headlights, which I couldn't care less about, the rest of this "off road" gadgetry is still too dependent on Rover electrics instead of nuts & bolts hardware. This is not a good thing. If it has a brain fart out in the boonies, you're screwed. This is all very telling: LR in the US has done a total about face. Instead of building vehicles that were first and foremost built for off road but adapted for luxury, now they're building posh mall crawlers for the soccer moms with off-road gadgetry tacked on with the usual dodgy Rover electrics. And for $55,000 to $87,000 US -- don't make me laugh. I ain't buying it. The most profound thing I noticed (by its absence) is that this Matthew Taylor didn't mention anything about the Defender 110 CKD, which, according to Ford/LR publicity machine, is the heart and soul of the "marque." For some reason, we are not going to get it in the US and I'd like this SOB to explain why. If LR can devise this complicated "Terrain Response" electronic contrivance, they can certainly fit airbags in a 110 to make it legal for the US. | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 45 Registered: 03-2004 |
buy a 1957 willys jeep than! or a series one! every one is entitled to their own opinions! but man i cant beleive how much and how many people complain. its too cold, its too hot. dam traffic. there is not anyway that rover or any other car company is going to revert back to the old days! progress they make. it ant going to change and soon we will be driving and filling up with water or plugging in for electric cars. really its not like any of us use their rovers seven days a week, in axle deep mud crossing the savana or as used as the "farmers friend" driving wood spliters off of some pto device. cause that is what land rover ownership was all about. discos and rangies are way posh and were talked as oh so what is rover doing? what a strange concept 1969 range rover? series rovers were all the rave. think about that when you hit the fm tunner in the 1995 discovery on the way to work tomorrow. what it must have been like driving a 1957 series 107 wagon. with delux trim package! so for what its worth get use to it as areo dynmacis round out the cars and trucks be thanful your rover aint made by dodge! dam dodges! LOL | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2004 |
four speed stick no syncro, leaf springs, 4.7 gears, 52 bhp, 45 mph top end speed, leaks everywhere, min/no heating, ice build up on wind screen, buck board ride, loud, smell of exhaust, rattling here and everywhere, broken axles every weekend, bad brakes, single line drum brake system, grinding gears, doubling cluching! ten miles in the bush with a calf moose over the bonnet, chain saw to cut fire wood eating a stick roasted grouse. good old landys! who remembers those good old days? also remember 1974-1987 the last year and the first year of the land rover products! how things had changed. iam gratful even if my heated seats do not work, central locking unoperative, .... | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2004 |
oh buy the way. i used to have to walk through a snow storm inorder to get to school. while i pased the widow of the old farm house i would see grand ma chewing on peices of leather to soften it up in order to make us winter boots! and every time i passed by that dam land rover never ran! and sat covered in snow.LOL | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 115 Registered: 10-2003 |
"- height-adjustable fully independent air suspension ... (right, remember RRC's EAS system -- everybody I know has junked theirs in favor of regular shocks & coils)." Yeah, there were lots of things built 9 years ago that people improved on. Plasma TVs, Satellite Radio, the Internet, etc... Do you think they used the exact same system? Or do you think they learned from it and improved it. Have all the D2 owners scrapped theirs? Well, no. Has it occured to you maybe the Rover electronics have improved as well? How is your '03 Disco or RR doing with its electronics? Oh wait, you don't have one so you don't know. You just have.....well hell....looking at your profile I can't tell what you have. What do you drive? If it's not a '03 or newer product, then it's real hard for you to comment on the current state of development of Rover electronics. Don't knock it until you try it. Or, knock it before you try it and just complain about it, that helps things for everyone. pwc | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 43 Registered: 03-2004 |
dhk, I get the progress point of what your saying. I understand technology will move on with or without me. BUT! Why not keep those things that any experienced off-road enthusiast insists you need? Sure give me a Hybrid powerplant if you want...I'd love to get 30mpg on the highway. I still want solid axels and a big beefy frame. Hey...the truck guys at Ford all get their way, why can't we!? Actually, I've figured it out, and I'm pretty depressed about it. Seems to me that about 90% of you are only on Dweb when the malls are closed and you aren't drinking latte at your favorite "bistro". Not that there's a problem with that, just go buy an M-class and quit filling out Land Rover product questionaires because you're wrecking it for the rest of us. I didn't buy a green oval, I bought a truck. I think that if you complain in a public forum that the ride is too jiggly, or the backseat is cramped you should have your vehicle confiscated by the LR police so that they can give it to some poor ole Jeep bastard who understands the value of a short wheelbase and solid axels. and Gil, watch out, you thought it was bad when Jag pumped out an AWD independent suspension bastard for the masses? Well get ready, because next year in the USA, that will be all you can get from your local Land Rover Dealers | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 291 Registered: 02-2002 |
LR is going for the volume market, not the 4WD market. There are parallels that can be drawn between Jag and LR. The XJ and XK, the high end, are not based on Ford platforms while the mid-low end X-Type and S-Type are based on Ford sub-frame/platforms. This is probably the direction of LR. In today's volume / mid-low / price point range sharing of components is probably a requirement for profit. I also think the PAG sees Lexus/Acura as the competition, not Jeep. As for Freelanders, I see a lot of them here in Colorado. It makes a good snow / high country vehicle for those that ski and camp. Which leaves those that love a basic truck without a LR product. I think this will hurt LR in the long run. Techno-gizmo's can only take you so far. Kind of like that car back in the 40/50's? with swivel headlights. How long before we all rediscover the disadvantage of that system? | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) New Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2004 |
Kay tell & Peter -- Hey, if the soccer moms want an $87,000 LR3 mall crawler, let 'em have it and more power to 'em. You guys can be the first ones on your respective blocks to buy one -- knock yourselves out. Personally, I'd rather have a basic, tried and true 4x4 that depends more on nuts & bolts hardware instead of electronic gimmicks -- but that's just me and maybe a million or so other folks in this country who actually go off road once in a while and beat their rigs up on the trail. Sure, electronics have improved over the years, but they're a weak link when they get soaked and knocked to hell out in the boonies repeatedly. Why don't you take your plasma TV out on the trail and see how it works? After reading about so many D2 owners on this board who have dash boards lit up like Christmas trees from all the electrical faults, I'm still leery of having a 4wd system totally dependent on Rover electrics. I just don't see why it's so tough to put airbags in the Defender 110 CKD (they've had them in Discos and RRCs for years, which is basically the same vehicle) so they can make it into the US. If Jeep can sell millions of Wranglers in this country, then LR could do the same with the Defender. They're selling them in literally 100 other markets, but not in the US, the biggest market of all. That's just plain stupid, especially since the 110 is the "heart and soul" of LR from which they derive the "safari" image they trade on. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 47 Registered: 01-2004 |
Part of the reason that Wranglers sell so well, is their low entry price point...LR can't even get the Freelander pricing that low...so the other models are out of the question. The higher the price, the more features, comfort, power and reliability people expect...that's just the way it is... | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 292 Registered: 02-2002 |
I agree LR can add airbags to a Defender while begs the question, what other issues prevent the Defender from being sold here? I suspect the cost of regulations and testing balanced against net income is the issue. Bottom line, no profit due to expected low volume? If they kill the Disco, intro the new LR3 model at a Lexus feature/price point, does that increase the number of LR off-roaders that will go for a Defender vs. LR3? Probably. Then maybe a US Defender is viable. As for price, I think LR's are sold at a lower price than in the UK. So expect the price range to be lower than in the original article. Still pricey. | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) New Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 38 Registered: 02-2004 |
I wonder why LR can't (won't) get the price on the Defender competitive with that of the Wrangler in the US, especially when they sell Defenders in over 100 countries, most of which are in the 3rd world where most people live on about $38 a month. The Wrangler Rubicon lists for $26,000 and you can barely fit two adults and two kids in it and that's about it. That seems pretty expensive for what it is. At that rate, I'm sure Defenders could sell easily at $32-$36K -- it's a very appealing vehicle to a lot of people. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sandy, So you haven't driven an '03 RR or Disco and by the looks of this quote: "the Defender 110 CKD (they've had them in Discos and RRCs for years, which is basically the same vehicle)" you've never ripped apart the dash of a '93 110 either, otherwise you wouldn't have made such an uninformed statement. Ok, now I know where you're coming from. "I'd rather have a basic, tried and true 4x4 that depends more on nuts & bolts hardware instead of electronic gimmicks " then, quite simply, you will never buy any Rover made from this point forward. Pure and simple. And " Why don't you take your plasma TV out on the trail and see how it works? " Huh? Ohhhhh....you made an assumption about what I drive and you're completely wrong. I made an assumption that you HAVEN'T driven an '03 Rover and I'm right. Being leery of new electronics is fine, comepletely bashing them as trash before you have used them isn't so fine. Just buy a used 110 and move on. pwc | ||
| Justin Kurosaki (Kurosaki) Member Username: Kurosaki Post Number: 68 Registered: 02-2004 |
There are several reasons you won't see a Defender stateside in its current form. 1). Volume and profits... That really is the bottom line. It isn't profitable for LR or Ford (only the dealerships!). LR would never sell the current defender to be competitive with the Jeeps when they over price their competition in everything else. LRNA is just too greedy (true of most American companies). 2). Federal NHTSB regulations. It isn't about the airbags. LR could easily fit airbags to the defender line. The problem lies with the current rollover protection standards and the cost of meeting them. Sure in the past LR was able to put external cages on to meet this requirement, but the NHTSB no longer finds this to be suitable solution. 3.) EPA regulations. In order to meet federal gas mileage requirments, they must meet the 21mpg average for light trucks. Introducting the Defender would only hurt their already low average. 4.) The CKD... I really doubt LR will be able to exploit this "kit car" loophole and legally import Defender 110's... True kit cars (and some limited production cars) are exempt from the more strigent EPA and NHTSB laws. However, if LR is selling these kits to the masses, and these masses are in turn registering and selling these vehicles as Defenders (which technically they are) then they are side stepping the law. Really it is just a matter of numbers. Now I would LOVE to eat crow and be wrong just to see the current defender being sold here. But I don't see that happening. There is just not enough money to be made and way too many goverment hoops to jump through. There might very well be a defender soon (I kind of expect it), but I don't forsee it being much like the current one. It will probably be the H2 of the LR world. -justin | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2004 |
You've got alot of venom Peter. Why is it so hard to accept that many LR owners lament the decision of the company to pursue a more mainstream market segment? I'm sorry you don't get it, but independent suspension and "The Super Hill Traction Slob-Knob" just won't get you to this...  and for the record, that is not my truck. But I'm sure the owner of this Disco is just as tweaked as I am at the prospect of Disco-out LR3-in! | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 442 Registered: 02-2002 |
I agree with Sandy and i have driven 03s and 04s, range rovers and discoveries, on and off road. Maybe the rover electronics have become more reliable, but why load a truck up with electronic gadgets when for 50 years theyve been getting the job done with mechanical parts? Would you need a special button to drive a d1 thru sand.. or mud? no. would you need the magic buttons in a 90 or 110?? no.. you wouldnt. Even the range rover (03-04) is an amazing vehicle but i wouldnt want to take it to far from civilization. Sure it will get pretty far out there but there is to much going on to risk being that far from help. It wouldnt take all that much to turn the range into a 6000 lbs desert decoration. Id imagine the same will be said for LR3. itll be marketed as the "greatest off road vehicle" land rover has ever produced, but it gets it done with wires and circuits. There is a place for tecnology and gadgetry in the automotive world, unfortunately an "off-road" vehicle may not be the best place for it. Im not an LR3 basher nor am i an LR3 cheerleader, actually the truck will probably help pay my mortgage better than the current disco, but i dont agree with the engineering or the future of LRNA. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2004 |
Exactly. The LR3 could be the best SUV overall that Ford/LR/whoever ever made...it's just not a "Land Rover" | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 49 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think there is a position in between the mall-crawler image and that photo James...I need to drive my truck to work everyday, so you won't see me pulling maneuvers like that, unless, of course, I'm running from the law...most people just don't use their vehicles that way in the real world...and you can't expect a business that is interested in making money to design their products around the feature requests of a very small percentage of a very large market. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2004 |
Right you are Steve, and your position in between Mall and Sourdough puts you in a nice Tahoe... just check the 4x4 option. The point you don't get is...a good many Disco owners DO "run from the law", and a huge number of Disco owners bought their trucks to LOOK the part even if they'd rather wax it than scratch it. Now, LR has opted for a path that will lead them away from consideration for a good many off-road enthusiasts...and I'd say from the hundreds of Rover/Cruiser/Jeep pages on the web a "good many" is an understatement. This board is FILLED with people asking questions about lockers, trimming their fenders to fit 33s, who makes the best underbody armor, or bumpers, or winches. There is a market for at least 1 Land Rover model for these folks. You might be ok with a small, medium and large Freelander, but I want more. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 956 Registered: 11-2002 |
James , thats is just it. Peter doesnt do anything with his so he wont notice any difference..... You are talking to a wall.... | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 51 Registered: 01-2004 |
Sorry to say, it's a pipe dream James...this is 2004, and all manufacturers are going the way of sophisticated electronics and computers...I'm not defending it, it's just the way it is. It's not going to change either. Your only hope is that the niche will be filled by some smaller volume, specialty manufacturer...or you're just going to have to buy used from now one...that's all. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 443 Registered: 02-2002 |
steve its not a pipe dream.. the Rubicon is a perfect example. Jeep is selling a ton of them, they get the job done and they arent loaded with ridiculous dials and sensors and computers. Even jeep is getting a little soft, like the liberty, the new grand etc.. but at least they have the understanding of their brand image and realize that they have to offer at least ONE truly "off-roadable" vehicle in order to maintain that image. If jeeps brings out a LWB Rubicon.. id be all over it. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1783 Registered: 02-2003 |
steve , what about the jeep rubicon? yes, electronics, but there is some give and take there. here is ABS and computer and take these lockers,HD axels and solid axels... | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 53 Registered: 01-2004 |
Actually, the Wrangler only accounts for about 14 percent of Jeep sales, and of that, a high percentage are the entry level model Wranglers sold to college students, ect. If those numbers drop even more, you'll probably see the Rubicon go away too...if Jeep keeps it, it is soley to keep the historic Jeep image in tact...not to keep the money rolling in. Hell, if you like them, buy one...I hate the cheap, plastic, old American style interiors... | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 444 Registered: 02-2002 |
but jeep realizes that even though the rubicon is a minor factor in their sales numbers and profits, it is invaluable in upholding the image of "jeep". When you say jeep.. most people think CJ/wrangler just like alot of people equate land rover to series/defender.. a capable, tough, OFF ROAD vehicle. previously you wrote.. "and you can't expect a business that is interested in making money to design their products around the feature requests of a very small percentage of a very large market" isnt that what "land rover" has always been? Its always been a very small percentage of the population that would even consider a rover in the first place. why? because they are.. or should be.. primarily off road vehicles. at least thats what the last 50 years would tell you. Its ford who is trying to mass market this brand based on it off road prowess, but in the process its removing the core of what makes a rover a rover. There is a good reason that most trails are littered with Jeeps, old cruisers, old broncos, scouts etc.. they are basic, the are field fixable for the most part, and they are mechanical. Less is usually more when venturing off the pavement, thats what LR/Ford doesnt get. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 54 Registered: 01-2004 |
I am not debating the merits of simplicity when it comes to off roading...but rather being realistic. Jeep is not LR, and the Wrangler may not last much longer in it's current form either...time will tell. Land Rovers roots may stem from bare bones off road prowess, but things slowly evolved and changed after the introduction of the RR as more of a luxury/comfort vehicle. The fact of the matter is that a very large percentage of the recent/current LR market does not even venture off road...and that brings us back to making money... | ||
| eric w siepmann (Cdn001) Member Username: Cdn001 Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2003 |
"just like alot of people equate land rover to series/defender.. a capable, tough, OFF ROAD vehicle" Maybe the enthusiasts. I wish I had a nickel for each person that complimented my D-90 as a "Nice Jeep" Sad truth of the matter is that most people see Land Rover as a luxury SUV or the Range Rover. They have absolutely no interest in off roading whatsoever. I personally see the LR3 as a continuation of the status quo. Status symbol for those who care for that sort of thing. EwS | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Senior Member Username: Markp Post Number: 294 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Small, medium and large Freelander" - Aaargh! Now you've done it James. That will be in my mind for a long time. | ||
| Felix Gumbiner (Felixthecat) Member Username: Felixthecat Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2004 |
Seems to me there is a lot of unfair and ignorant speculation regarding the LR3's off road performance. I remember reading the Porsche boards at the time of the Cayenne, and people were flipping out. However their lamenting was assuaged once they saw it could do 0-60 in 5 seconds. A tenuous analogy, perhaps, but I'm going to put a little bit of trust in LR. Personally, I'd be very surprised if suddenly Land Rover gives us a vehicle incapable of the 4x4 performance we've come to respect so much... Time will tell, I suppose. | ||
| Justin Kurosaki (Kurosaki) Member Username: Kurosaki Post Number: 70 Registered: 02-2004 |
Felix, How does a 450hp Cayenne doing the 0-60 in 5 seconds validate a LR3 with a "offroad knob thingy" being a solid 4x4? Lets not kid ourselves, Land Rover execs will give us what they want to give us (genius isn't it?). They DONT care about true 4x4 ability. They will show comercials of the LR3 on top of Mt. Everest and lead people to believe whatever they want to. The discovery, after all, is a status luxury vehicle here in the states. It is the folks on this board who acutally take them to the trails and who will learn that there is no electronic pancea to wheelin'. Ho had it right all along in a previous post... It is just a dolled up minivan (on a truck chassis). That is what all the manufacturers are going to... Generic people movers that are "marketed" to do different things. LR is just jumping on the bandwagon as the current Discovery was the last of its kind. -justin | ||
| Justin Kurosaki (Kurosaki) Member Username: Kurosaki Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2004 |
And Felix, I didn't mean to attack you, but that same arguement was used for New Coke as well... Sometimes people know when an era is over and here is a good case where it is. The new Disco (LR3) is just an ordinary truck now. -justin | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2003 |
HAHAHA!!! Kyle, you just reminded me I need to start up my run of "I wanna be like Kyle" bumper stickers. I'm glad you know what I do, being on the opposite side of the country and all. Thanks for the personal putdown for no good reason, you're great at it, keep it up. In the mean time, I'll try to live my life more like you want me to but I'll need you to send me a new list. James, sorry about that, I just saw something wrong with some of Sandy's generalizations and pointed them out. "Why is it so hard to accept that many LR owners lament the decision of the company to pursue a more mainstream market segment?" Oh, I get it and it's not hard for me to accept. most people were just bitching in general but Sandy brought up specific items that were easy to pick on. Don't get me wrong, I know people want to modify their trucks to mimic that picture and that's fine. I don't (as Kyle pointed out, I don't do anything, LOL) but it doesn't mean I don't get it. A lot of people 'here' obviously want to modify their trucks and the D1 is obviously the easiest to do it with as far as Discoveries. However, there are far more people out thre who, given the choice between a D1 and a D3, would choose the D3. People here would do just the opposite, and that doesn't bring Ford any money. There are 1800 people here with user accounts. That's a really slim number as compared to the people buying the new trucks off the lot (since a lot of people here bought their trucks used). pwc | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 959 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peter , you dont , the first modified truck you owned you bought already built. Its not something I am making up. Its the way it is... You can clearly tell the people that do and the ones that dont. Ussually in threads like this... It pains me to think that someone like you could ever be like me... PLease dont say that , its scarey...... Thanks | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 566 Registered: 09-2002 |
You guys suck, the damn vehicle won't be here for 6 months to prove or disprove your feelings. I wish I had 45k to spend on a trail rig. Most people who want a trail vehicle will get an older one and enjoy the hell out of it. The minority will think they can run Dusy Ershim in a new stock LR3 RR or take your pick. Most people bitching probably couldn't afford the vehicle anyhow. If you could then money wouldn't be an object and you would be able to throw even more money to make it capable. Now just sit down, watch your Mt. Everest commercials and wheel your D1s and leave well enough alone. Everytime LR comes out with a new model, all I hear is bitching. IF you don't like it then go get a job there and try to make a change. Oh and the damn defender thing is old after 7 years. Let me dispell a myth for all the children on hear the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are all fake. peace out people | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 960 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peace out ? lol , I hate to break it to you Aaron , but many here CAN more then afford the new trucks.Dont project your situation onto everyone else. The BBS topics get brought up to talk about , and thats what these people do... The Defender ? Who cares......... There are more then enough here already that people wont buy.. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 571 Registered: 09-2002 |
I agree with everything you say, Kyle. I think many people on this board could afford them. Being able to make payments is one thing. Having the money to buy it and actually use it on medium to difficult trails are two different things. I also don't think that most of the people crying are able to do that. If it was your would have been seeing new RR and even P38s on the trail. I don't see a whole lot of H1s out and about. Is it about availability no. Its about most people who can afford them don't take them offroad. Are there exceptions, yes and thank God for that. I just think people are judging the new kid before they even meet him. Give him a chance if it's not for you then put more in too your already capable vehicles and drive. That's all I was saying. Its just amazing how these posts get so long when people still haven't seen the project. 90RRC 95D1, 97D1, I love to wheel these three and I will stick with them for that reason. I most likely will buy the LR3 for my wife this fall. Will I wheel it, not until she puts the first dent in it then its open game. Peace out party people. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 572 Registered: 09-2002 |
Oh and Kyle I wasn't projecting, I can afford it. | ||
| Peter Carey (Peterca) Member Username: Peterca Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2003 |
"the first modified truck you owned you bought already built." that's the way it is? LOL Sometimes Kyle, the way you say things ISN'T the way it is. Get over your ego and I'll try to get over mine. You're ignorant on trucks I've owned Kyle, purely ignorant. The first Disco I bought was already set up and you even suggested to me personally in email it was a good truck to buy and I should buy it. But try to stretch your small brain into thinking I owned other trucks and cars before that one. I don't do anything with my truck. Man, that one still cracks me up. I'll try to send you pictures everytime I do something so I can keep you up to date, otherwise, you're completely in the dark about what I do and don't do, aren't you? pwc | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 961 Registered: 11-2002 |
Aaron , the more people know about vehicles , the better they are at forming an opinion. I have said this before about the freelander and I will say it about this one. This isnt Rocket science and cutting edge technology. Its just a twist on what has been under cars already for years. Infact , one of Land Rovers sales points is that everyone else was running these systems and they stuck to tried and true. Now they are shooting themselves in the foot with a gun they built. I have no doubt in my mind that they are building better road cars because the systems that they are using are indeed better for on road. Thats why this turns into this kind of debate each time and the threads get so long. A majiority of people on this BBS put up with the bullshit on road manners of the old Discovery and Rangie for what woke up when the paws left pavement.. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 109 Registered: 01-2004 |
Having said that, how much sense does it make for a manufacturer (who strives to be profitable) to continue producing the aforementioned products. BT. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 573 Registered: 09-2002 |
I couldn't agree more. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 55 Registered: 01-2004 |
Are there any new/current production vehicles, other than the Rubicon, that the hardcore element of this board thinks is competent off road? Are there any alternatives to the LR3 that would get your stamp of approval? | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 574 Registered: 09-2002 |
to add to Steve's post Sold in the U.S. | ||
| Wicks (Wicks) Member Username: Wicks Post Number: 170 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I wish I had a nickel for each person that complimented my D-90 as a "Nice Jeep"" Don't you hate that? I feel sympathetic when it happens, so somtimes I educate them. | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2004 |
just wait untill they invent the hovering car! LOL then will come the hovering landy. with quad hover pods. imagine that! there will be then NO eventorimental damage on trails or the sissy by pass, thus never having to worry about 33 vrs 35 tyres again. i would make mine turn 1000 horse and blow wake turbulance all over the place just to piss everyone off. hehee nice guys never finish first! personally i wish i had a thousand dollar bill every time someone said cool army jeep. then i could have bought a defender when they were here! dam! new | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) New Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2004 |
"There are several reasons you won't see a Defender stateside in its current form. 1). Volume and profits... That really is the bottom line. It isn't profitable for LR or Ford (only the dealerships!). LR would never sell the current defender to be competitive with the Jeeps when they over price their competition in everything else. LRNA is just too greedy (true of most American companies)." WELL, granted, LRNA is nothing but a den of thieves -- lazy, greedy bastards that they are. But they can't be so stupid not to bring the Defender back to the US (although they certainly have been that stupid for the past several years). I mean, how expensive are these things to build? It's not like they have to retool the factory and recoup a lot of R&D for electronic gimmickery. These are pretty basic trucks that have been sold throughout the 3rd world and to many militaries for years. They may be scared of American product liability torts -- if some idiot rolls one on the trail and blames the factory. God damn lie-yers!!! "2). Federal NHTSB regulations. It isn't about the airbags. LR could easily fit airbags to the defender line. The problem lies with the current rollover protection standards and the cost of meeting them. Sure in the past LR was able to put external cages on to meet this requirement, but the NHTSB no longer finds this to be suitable solution." Well, how the hell does the Wrangler get away with it? Do they get a "pass" because they're built in the US? Believe me, if LR can come up with this "Terrain Response" contraption (if it even works), they can pass the roll over test in the Defender cost effectively. "3.) EPA regulations. In order to meet federal gas mileage requirments, they must meet the 21mpg average for light trucks. Introducting the Defender would only hurt their already low average." Well, that's a good argument for a diesel -- call it a bio-diesel. The off road people and the ecologists will love it. "4.) The CKD... I really doubt LR will be able to exploit this "kit car" loophole and legally import Defender 110's... True kit cars (and some limited production cars) are exempt from the more strigent EPA and NHTSB laws. However, if LR is selling these kits to the masses, and these masses are in turn registering and selling these vehicles as Defenders (which technically they are) then they are side stepping the law. Really it is just a matter of numbers." Believe me, if Jeep can sell a bunch of Wranglers for $26,000, LR can sell assembled Defenders for $30,000+ easy. You can already buy "kits" here, but they cost an arm and a leg. "Now I would LOVE to eat crow and be wrong just to see the current defender being sold here. But I don't see that happening. There is just not enough money to be made and way too many goverment hoops to jump through. There might very well be a defender soon (I kind of expect it), but I don't forsee it being much like the current one. It will probably be the H2 of the LR world. -justin" If they do that, then fuck LR -- I'll never buy another one. I'll stick with my '95 and just mod and maintain it and support the aftermarket. But I know LRNA could get a Defender into the US if they just got off their fat, lazy, stupid asses and tried. And I would be first in line to buy one. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2004 |
Steve/Aaron, to your question regarding another vehicle in the US that meets my criteria. No there are none, other than the Rubicon. THAT is my point, Disco was a one and only. As to those bewildered by my suggestion, even before I drive it, that the LR3 will be an inadequate platform for some good off-road work. I offer this non PC analogy: If my wife is having a child, and the 'gram shows the poor fellow has his legs comming out of his head, then yes I will assume even before I meet him that I should not expect that he will ever run for the high school track team. Now...if somebody actually MADE my child with such a condition, Intentionally!? As if to suggest that I really didn't know what I wanted, or that I was wrong to dream about having a healthy child?!? I'd kick his sally a$$! Ergo my anger with Ford/LR (Some of) You guys are nuts! I've never been to a board where people actually blindly praised the demise of the products that they claim to champion. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 976 Registered: 02-2002 |
"the rest of this "off road" gadgetry is still too dependent on Rover electrics instead of nuts & bolts hardware." this is an interesting comment to me. from what I have been reading in this thread, it seems like the "stuff" on the LR3 could make it be very off-road worthy IF and a big IF, the electrics used to make it all happen were reliable. wasn't this the same situation Jag was in when Ford took over? a standard joke among Jag owners was one needed 3 Jags: 1 to drive; 1 in the shop; and 1 in the wings in case the other 1 went in the shop and the second 1 was waiting for parts. pretty sure most would agree Jag reliability has improved dramatically the last few years. electronics play a large part in everyone's daily life and most of the time its seamless. I really feel that its not that difficult to make the electronics in a LR be reliable. There are many, many more stringent environments where electronics are reliable than in a vehicle - even one that does go off-road. question for me is will Ford belly up to the table and make it happen. if Jag is an indication, it very well could. Jaime | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 446 Registered: 02-2002 |
I do think this discussion is a little premature as none of us have driven this thing. Im also pretty sure this thing will will be a blast to drive on pavement, as the new range is. but, I think justin up there put it best.... "Sometimes people know when an era is over and here is a good case where it is" when i look at the rover showroom and no longer see a solid axle, thats the end of an era. | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 977 Registered: 02-2002 |
very true Gil, yet, so was the demise of the buggy whip for general use! Jaime | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 110 Registered: 01-2004 |
Deke, Want a Defender ? 90 or 110 ? Go buy one ! there's lots available, high miles, low miles, no miles, autobox, manual, etc. BT. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2004 |
End of an Era: Ten years from now, "Land Rover" will be a quality brand of fishing shirt. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2004 |
I'm not blindly praising anything...just stating things the way they are in the real world. Without having driven one yet, my suspicion is that the LR3 will have much improved power, comfort, performance, and most importantly build quality and reliability, along with off road capability that surpasses any of it's competition. LR had to move forward with it's designs to remain competitive and meet ever increasing government standards/regulations...without doing so, they wouldn't even be around to sell fishing shirts in 10 years. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 57 Registered: 03-2004 |
Buy a Volvo | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 58 Registered: 01-2004 |
Buying a Volvo might bring money in to Ford, but won't help LR...you really think the LR3 will be nothing but a Volvo XC90 with a green oval slapped on it? | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 447 Registered: 02-2002 |
"along with off road capability that surpasses any of it's competition." thats a good point. That really is all Ford feels they have to do to keep land rover.. land rover. The problem in this is that there really is no capable competition. Thats like the freelander tag line.. "the most capabale vehicle in its class" but you have to look at the class. There is nothing capable in it so to say your the best is meaningless. As long as LR3 wheels better than an H2.. the job is done at the blue oval. thats not saying much. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 59 Registered: 01-2004 |
Actually, the new 05 Xterra, built on the Titan platform, with the modified 350Z/Maxima engine might start looking pretty good for the price... | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2004 |
If there is no competition, I guess the off roading community better pray that Jeep continues to build the Rubicon or the aftermarket embraces modern technology, or four wheeling may go the way of the Xbox after all of the old rigs die. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 965 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Rubicon is looking quite attractive actually.... And for the rest of you. If it walks like a duck and quaks like a duck... well.... you know.. You do know a duck when you see one right ? | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 448 Registered: 02-2002 |
xterra on a titan platform?? you might want to check the facts on that. isnt that what the armada already is?? All the old rigs will never die.. people that use them will continue to rebuild them and use them as they were intended. Thats beauty of simplicity.. it doesnt take a PHD in electrical engineering to breathe new life into the old trucks. | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 61 Registered: 01-2004 |
The new Xterra is being built on the same platform as the Titan/Armada...check this link for photos and links to more info... http://carspyshots.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=new&action=display&num=1081263 490 | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2004 |
ah yes...it rears its ugly head. An Xbox reference...maybe indicating your level of actual interest in being "Outside"? Wheelable trucks will be around for along time, but after the demise of the last few, just not in a form that will make Ford any money. Unless they do sell Fishing Shirts! Forget the Volvo then...enjoy the new Xterra! OOOOOH! | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2004 |
The problem isn't that it takes a PHD, but rather that it has always taken a lot of money to keep my Rovers running...reliability has been Rovers Achilles heal... | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2004 |
It was a joke James, sounds like you have about as much humor as common sense...the point is, a lot of people want to buy a new vehicle...what would you suggest they buy? | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2004 |
Dude! Have you seen that new Rainbow Six, Man?! Dude, it's HARDCORE!!! | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 978 Registered: 02-2002 |
I just bought a Saab '04 Arc convertible. Jaime  on LRs. jokingly of course on the LRs - did get the Saab. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 967 Registered: 11-2002 |
A Slaab ? oh my...... lol | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 64 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hey, if I buy an LR3, will I still be allowed to post...maybe in the Freelander section? | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 968 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes , you will have to go to the freeloaner section with that...What are you going to talk about anyway ? How many grocery bags you can get in the back ? | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 111 Registered: 01-2004 |
How'bout that hideous Crosslander thing ? LOL, BT | ||
| Steve Turpin (Steveturpin) Member Username: Steveturpin Post Number: 65 Registered: 01-2004 |
No Kyle, I'll need advise on how to keep my mobile Xbox from skipping while driving down the dirt road to get to my sons soccer practice...and also if I have enough articulation to hop the curb so I can get a better parking spot at my daughters ballet recital...you should know this stuff already! | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2004 |
Jaime, how do you like your Saab? The little woman has been lobbying for a convertible for some time and the new 9-3 looks good, although I'm leaning towards the Aero. | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2004 |
Well, if LRNA continues with this LR3 folly without a traditional 4x4 (like the current Defender), they've lost me as a customer. Period. Fortunately, there'll probably be an even more robust aftermarket rebuilding and modifying Discos, RRCs, Defenders, P38s, Land Cruisers etc. to pick up the ball that LRNA has dropped. There are also plenty of older Series Rovers, Pinzgauers & Unimogs coming in everyday. If the LR3 becomes the flagship of LR off-road prowess, then their slogan "best 4x4xfar" will go the way of "built like a Mack truck" and become a standing joke. | ||
| Jeff Johnson (Jefferson) New Member Username: Jefferson Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2003 |
I just stumbled across this topic and was surprised to see the tempers flaring over a vehicle. Having just left the LR dealer to get my D2 svcd (just routine, thank God), I saw all of the LR3 lit laying about and the sales guys were already beginning to sing the praises etc.. There are those who welcome the changes, some change is always good, and there those who are the diehards who hate to see what is happening to something, a vehicle in this case, that they are passionate about- Ultimately, I have to be on the side of those who are not happy about the change, not because of change itself but HOW it is changing. I think the issue is the same everywhere you look, beyond automotive. It is the great homogenization of everything, everywhere. We are the United McStates of Walmartica and we are coming to your town. I mean no disrespect to our great country I am more referring to the corporatization aspects. The same companies own everything, and all 'uniqueness' is watered down to be palatable to as many dumbed-down people as possible. I used to travel cross country all the time to every corner of this country and Canada and all I saw everywhere, from small town Nebraska to New England to rural Utah to the South was the_same_thing. WalMarts, CostCo's, Food Chains, Cardealers. The downtown hardware stores etc were boarded up and they all worked for WalMart now. Hence, anything unique to that area was now part of the great Sprawl-Mart. I work in advertising, and a great local radio station in town, that was so eccentric it had become a surpirse hit, has been descended upon by the great ClearChannel. Everyone has been let go, and the format is being changed. ClearChannel has said "We know you liked what you were hearing, but you're wrong, You will now be liking this" Homogenization. We are being dumbed down and we are lapping it up. The only people who are getting pissed off are the ones who notice it happening. I love two vehicles on earth, Land Rovers and Porsches, and I don't know what the hell Porsche is doing anymore either. Yes, the Cayenne will do 0-60 in 5.5. is a technical marvel whatever, I believe you. But non one can answer the question Why? I think the only answer is, taste. if you dont like something, don't buy it, I would think a company losing its core contingency would have to be felt on some level. Keep the spirit alive by maintaining the older LR's and supporting the companies that support them in the form of aftermarkets. It seems like everything does eventually come back around. I haven't seen an Aztec lately. An aircooled 911s hold its value for some reason. The older the LR, the more complements it seems to get. Sooner or later, if consumers don't always eat what they are fed maybe someone in charge will start to realize they may have done things right the first time- J | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 114 Registered: 01-2004 |
The market drives the product.. what's that tell ya.. BT. | ||
| Sandy Deke (Disco_deke) Member Username: Disco_deke Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2004 |
I nominate Peter Carey to be the first soccer mom on his block to buy an LR3. I won't try to stop you, I promise. | ||
| Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 1194 Registered: 04-2002 |
I say don't knock it until you've seen what it's capable of.. prime example of someone who has shown what the new RR is capable of. I have seen this thing in action, and it is quite amazing.  | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 451 Registered: 02-2002 |
that thing is pretty slick. Its good to see someone with the balls to use it as intended. I that a custom rear bumper? and are those running boards or a home fabbed slider? how far are those wheels offset? you got anymore pics of that thing? | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 61 Registered: 03-2004 |
just wait untill you see a modified lr3! the tune i really going to change then! 300hp v8 how many times has everyone complained about their gut less discos! " oh you dont need the power! its has a really low range" ha ha anyway one looks at it rovers rock! | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 115 Registered: 01-2004 |
Cash Gil.. not balls, cash! LOL, BT. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 452 Registered: 02-2002 |
lol.. good point bruno.. balls has nothing to do with it. | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 773 Registered: 02-2003 |
thats a nice looking RR are there any more photos of it around? | ||
| dhk (Kay_tell) Member Username: Kay_tell Post Number: 64 Registered: 03-2004 |
i think that it is sorta "top seceret" and no one gets that classified information. looks sorta operation night raid! ive heard that it has an anti radar paint scheme too. rear facing mini machine guns and smoke screen and much more! | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 320 Registered: 08-2003 |
I still think LR3 is ugly - couldn't we just have D2 with the new engines ? Jeff | ||
| Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 1196 Registered: 04-2002 |
The RR does have custom Heavy Duty front and rear bumpers and custom sliders. And this guy does have balls and is a true Rover enthusiast as well as one heck of a nice guy. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Senior Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 576 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jeff you could have any powertrain you can afford, just don't expect it from Land Rover. I said the cash think 50 posts ago. It is the same with the H1 owners, as capable as they are it takes a lot of balls (cash) to use them as they were designed. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2004 |
not alot of dirt/scrathes on that thar RR | ||
| Robert Sublett (Rubisco98) Senior Member Username: Rubisco98 Post Number: 1198 Registered: 04-2002 |
There is now! Those pics were taken just after installation of the gear, before it got some heavy use. | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 63 Registered: 03-2004 |
seeing a new-gen RR with a good rock rash would renew my faith in that all is right with the world! pat your budy on the back and buy him a beer for me! cheers | ||
| Andrew Roth (Kzykrn35) New Member Username: Kzykrn35 Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2004 |
Sick Rangie...I think that takes both balls and money and all the power to you! I am just a poor freshman college student who worked his tail off for a long time to scrape enough money to buy a 97 Disco XD w/ all option w/ 89,000 on it for $8,500 and with a 5,000 loan from my dad to have it set up pretty nicely(3 in OME lift, 4 Rallye 4000 lights, 31 in BFG A/T's, Warn winch...etc...)but I am short on cash so I cant go Mantec everything because of servicing(6,000 since I bought it last summer) and gas. However, I bleed Green. My parents and girlfriend want me to sell my Disco because it's expensive but I love how well it performs offroad...(I go technical wheeling all the time and I have to watch out as to not mess up my diff. housing. I wheel in stuff as technical as Discovery Trek and G4 Challenge.) All of you on this page know how expensive it is to drive a Rover. But I would rather push a Rover than drive a Jeep. The top Grand Cheerokee fully loaded is about $46,000; the top Explorer is $44,000; and the new LR3 fully loaded will probably be around $45-48,000. If I had the money I would take the LR3. But yet again...if I had 48,000 I would buy a D-90 Wagon for $25,000 and have a hay day going Mantec everything, ARB bumper w/Warn XD9000i winch, custom rear winch bumper w/warn 8000lb winch, OME LTR...etc... but that is just me and I am a poor college student so it will be a couple of years before I can even think about shelling out the money to buy another vehicle so dont mind me... I just love Rovers for their proven offroadability... | ||
| Jack Leitch (Liveattheedge) Senior Member Username: Liveattheedge Post Number: 336 Registered: 12-2003 |
andrew, send some pics of ur xd into ho so he can get u a gallery up in the XD section. That sounds like a pretty cool rig. Cheers Jack | ||
| Jack Leitch (Liveattheedge) Senior Member Username: Liveattheedge Post Number: 337 Registered: 12-2003 |
and robert, no-one knocked the off road capability of the newRR when it came out. It was hailed as the best 4x4 ever produced since it's introduction and still is by all the major land rover magazines. Beat a defender 90 in the tests i've seen it put through stock off road. I don't doubt that the new disco, or LR3 will be good off road, its the rear styling that i don't like. besides, how many people back in 1994 would have imagined D1's being beefed up for major off roading. Cheers Jack | ||
| Andrew Roth (Kzykrn35) New Member Username: Kzykrn35 Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2004 |
The LR3 does seem a bit quirky but people thought the same about the Freelander when it debuted in 97. Some say the Freelander is not a true Land Rover but it debatably saved Land Rover... Some think only true Land Rovers have leaf springs. I think the LR3 could be revolutionary if the electrical system works properly but more electrics = pain in the ass if it decides to not work properly. If the LR3 is the same price as a new 03 Discovery, the LR3 can have an adventure roof rack and a rear ladder mounted to it and Mantec, ARB, OME, etc can keep up and provide proper off road accessories then I bet some like Robert will bust out the balls and cash to make it one heck of an offroader. The 03 Disco has too much electrics for some but people still modify them ARB, Mantec, OME...etc have kept up with the new advancements over the years (as you can buy ARB winch bumpers that have silohoutte cut outs so you can use the fog lights on the new front end of the Disco 03...this is sorta wordy but look at the new Atlantic British Catalog its on the last page, atleast on the one that got sent to me it is.) But to make a long story short. If the LR3 could be put through Camel Trophy like conditions, prolonged G4/Disco Trek conditions, and Rubicon or Moab conditions then all the power to Land Rover congrats on making a more powerful Disco with Range Rover styling... | ||
| James M. Reed (Utahdog2003) Member Username: Utahdog2003 Post Number: 65 Registered: 03-2004 |
prolonged G4 conditions? does that really belong alongside Camel and Moab? | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) Senior Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 749 Registered: 02-2003 |
LRs here have always been cheaper than in the UK by 20-25%% or so, so doing a straight exchange rate conversion is meaningless. Me, I'm beginning to think that the defender is close to being consigned to history..the UK military will be 100% pinzgauer before the end of the decade....farmers and most businesses need more payload......but thats the subject of another thread/flame I suspect | ||
| Matt Taylor (Whodatmatt) New Member Username: Whodatmatt Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2003 |
I'm upset that there's another Matt Taylor out there, and apparently he's got a much cooler job than I do. Rat farts. | ||
| Andrew Roth (Kzykrn35) New Member Username: Kzykrn35 Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2004 |
it probably doesn't doesn't belong there but if it can do it...and not break down...it still maintains the strong Land Rover badge but we all know it's probably a "fluffy" vehicle (just like the Freelander). I would stick with a D1, RRC, or D 90/D110. With prolonged G4 Conditions, what I mean is just that it can with stand repeated abuse. The Camel Trophy used Freelanders...but yet again...was that the real Camel Trophy? James your point is well taken. | ||
| Andrew Roth (Kzykrn35) New Member Username: Kzykrn35 Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2004 |
Hey I got an idea... what if LRNA put a diesel engine into the LR 3 so that people who are hardcore offroaders would want to buy it on account of the diesel engine (not existant in the US.) Or better yet...just make a diesel powerplant available in the US for RR, Disco Series I and II, and Defender. We can only dream though...we can only dream. LRNA wouldn't release a vehicle if they didn't think it could make money. Lets hope the Freelander, new RR, and the LR3 sell alot to keep Land Rover and dealerships (for that matter) afloat so that we (being people with simplicit yet off-road functional RRC, Disco I, D90/110)can still have our vehicles serviced by the Land Rover trained technicans who know the insides and outs of Land Rover vehicles. | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 331 Registered: 08-2003 |
If LRNA does cave in and bring the diesel engined variant over here - there are bound to be some that find their way prematurely to the breakers yard - we're going to end up being spoiled for choice in the powertrain department. But even with the diesel engine I still won't be buying it. Too many foo foo accessories. Wonder what the power output is for the v6 diesel (real not marketing numbers). Seriously though - hopefully LR3 is a roaring success and paves the way for LRNA to bring the Defender back. Jeff | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) Senior Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 753 Registered: 02-2003 |
The 60-degree V-6 has twin turbochargers and will be capable of producing 207 horsepower in high-performance form, which is likely to be the way in which it is presented in Jaguar's mid-size sedan. Maximum torque is an impressive 324 lb-ft (440 N-m), which is higher than the 310 lb-ft (420 N-m) Jaguar quotes for the 4.2-liter V-8 gasoline engine currently available in the car. http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,200&sid=200&article=6143 BHP will probably be less in LR form | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Senior Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 339 Registered: 08-2003 |
Cheers Chris - hmmmmm 324lb-ft torque. Rattles like a model T (couldn't resist Felix) and that great diesel smell. o.k. where do I sign up for a crate engine. Jeff |
