| Author | Message | ||
     Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2003 |
My name is Ben Tais and I'm a Sales Guide for Land Rover Shreveport in Shreveport, LA. Last month I purchased a 2003 Freelander. My company does not give us demos and we also sell Volvo, Jaguar, and Mercedes and I chose the Freelander as my source of transportation (even after shopping around myself). My question is, why is our market doing so poorly with the freelander and is there any thing I can do to introduce this vehicle into our city? Ben Tais | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2003 |
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| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 820 Registered: 02-2002 |
its an interesting question as the Freelander here in Tulsa isn't doing too well either, yet, there is a boat load of RR3 and '03/'04 Discos running around. there are many sport utes or whatever you want to call them on the US market today. while we may think the Freelander is the best of the lot, my feeling (and thats all it is) is people here just don't think of Land Rover when it comes to purchasing a smaller vehicle. must be very frustrating to see the sales numbers in Europe and South America. our dealer in the latest sponsered event had a couple out for people to drive on a pretty cool course. GM paid to have a course laid out for the intro of the '04 H2 in the area. One section was like mogules to show the articulation or lack of same. the Freelanders went through the area with wheel stands, yet, the ETC kept them going. pretty impressive. good luck! Jaime | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 412 Registered: 04-2003 |
Maybe people who want a small SUV don't want to pay $27K for it? | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2003 |
Anybody in the South Central Market, Land Rover Shreveport is having a Range Rover Event Dec. 7. Let me know if anybody would be interested. 1-800-839-6528 ext. 1257. By the way, that A. Red SE is mine with the 16" wheels added with a new Firestone wrapped around it. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm not getting traffic to test drive to even look at how much it is. | ||
| BVO (Hippolvr) New Member Username: Hippolvr Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Maybe people who want a small SUV don't want to pay $27K for it?" Being that you can get them in the $18-$19k range, I don't think that is it.... | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think the problem is two fold: a) Most people who are shopping the smaller SUV vehicles are looking for something "reliable" to run the kids around in. Most of these buyers are spoiled by Japanese quality and the problems with Freelander main rear seals, sun roofs, transmisison, breaks, etc. is pretty well known to anyone who has done any research on the vehicle. I believe this lack of reliablility (true or somewhat embellished) is scaring many potential buyers off. b) The Freelander is getting a bad wrap from many owners of its upscale siblings. Many LR purests look down their noses at the Freelander because of its lower ground clearance and lack of a low range - it is equally true that most who make such negative comments have never driven one, especially off-road. Ford needs to improve the build quality and market the "valued" qualities of performance and off-road worthiness this car truly commands over its market competition if its ever going to be a hit in the US. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ben, Nice picture of your new Hippo. What type and size of tire are you running on it as shown in the picture? | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm running a new Firestone Destination M/T 225/75R16. Very well priced and very effective tires. Although, they are a little noisy, but I like it that way. If my wife doesn't like it, she can drive her own damn car. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ben, I thought they looked like 225/75/16's. As a LR Sales Guide, I would be interested in your take on the use of that oversized tire? Some I know that are using it have had minor rubbing problems at hard lock or under heavy load. Because of that I've selected to run 225/70/16's on mine, but the choice of off-roading tires is drastically diminished at that size. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2003 |
As a LR Sales Guide, I will have to accept any consequences of using an oversized tire. What it is rubbing on is the plastic mud guard on the inside of the fenderwell. It only rubs in very extreme conditions and since I now what its rubbing on, it doesn't bother me as bad. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 303 Registered: 07-2002 |
"My question is, why is our market doing so poorly with the freelander and is there any thing I can do to introduce this vehicle into our city?" Because the target marketing plan from LRNA on the Freelander was so far off based, its amazing any are sold at all. When the Freelander was introduced here, somehow LR's brilliant marketing dept deemed that the ideal target for sales of the Freelander was going to be early to mid-20 year olds, mostly males, who earn between $60K - $80K per year. ??? Really now, how many 20ish year old males, that let alone are making are making that kind of money, are going to be buying a Freelander as their primary car? Lets be blunt here, most early 20 year olds I have known are predominatly preoccupied with getting laid and driving a nice car thats going to impress their pals as well as make an impression on the girls. While I think the Freelander is a nice car, they dont fit into that catagory for that age bracket. "Being that you can get them in the $18-$19k range, I don't think that is it.... " Where are you able to get a new Freelander for this price? I walk into my dealership, I dont see $18K on the price tags, I still see mid 20's. The lowest I have ever seen one was when we bought our SE3 last year and that was with X-Plan pricing and that was still mid $20's before we added options. Andrews point is very valid. If this is the new pricing on Freelanders, then great but thats not what they have been costing. Since they came out here, they have been priced upper 20's to low 30's. | ||
| BVO (Hippolvr) New Member Username: Hippolvr Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry, didn't clarify with that one Chris. The $18-$19k are the demos and used low mileage hippo's now on the market, not new... | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2003 |
I guess what i really want to know is, why do you like your Freelander? What qualities make us want to pay more for this vehicle than a CRV, Jeep Liberty, or any small sport ute? I know why I bought it, my sickness for mud. A lot of the problems we have with the Freelander have been aswered in the 2004 model. A more luxurious interior, more stylish exterior and still the best ride available. And the price has been significantly reduced. Off the subject, I have dropped bumpers off of Discoverys, slung more mud in a new Range Rover and yet I have more respect for the Freelander than you can imagine.(Gin and Tonic's got me talkin'). | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) New Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2003 |
Glad you're enjoying the Holiday's with a little bit of cheer! My neighbor owns a CRV and I don't think LR makes enough noise about how much better the Freelander rides ON ROAD, let alone its off-roading abilities. The CRV is a slug in compsarison to my Hippo, especially on windy hair-pin turns. I test drove a Jeep Liberty several times before decising to buy a Freelander, I had assumed at the time that the off road ability of the two was simular (reluctant to ask the salesman to take either seriously off roading) so again the difference in my mind was the "on road" feel - I love that transmission! | ||
| Tim (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 607 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ben- It's also the appearance. My wife never liked the Freelander until I showed her a picture of one the way I would modify it with black steel rims, muffler tucked away, larger AT tires and a nice roof rack. Now she is interested. Before that it was just to common looking for her, too much like many other SUV's (like our Isuzu). Tim VT | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Senior Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ben, I worked at LR Charlotte (NC) over the summer and here is what I got from there: There are more 2003 Range Rovers sold every month than Discoveries and Freelanders combined. I found that very interesting that the 65,000 truck was selling better than the cheaper models. At the dealership, almost every Freelander ended up as/is going to end up as a loaner car. The Freelanders just didn't move. One reason is the price for a decked out Freelander is only a few thousand dollars less than a base model Discovery. Personally, I'd throw down a few thousand dollars to get the discovery instead of the Freelander. Another thought (and this is just me) is that the Freelander feels like a car instead of an SUV. So why not go get a car that will either be up to par with the Freelander for less, or spend the same amount of money for a "better" car. One thing I didn't like was that stupid antenna on the top. Everytime I'd run a Freelander through the Car wash I'd have to make sure it was down and even then they would still break off. While this is a small detail, it was never the less annoying expecially when it happened to a customer car. So that is my input. Max T. Cleanin' up them rigs  | ||
| David Morin (Sporin) Member Username: Sporin Post Number: 134 Registered: 02-2003 |
I would love a used Freelander down the line sometime, but I've never driven one. So I can only comment on the market... The vast majority of people who buy this class of vehicle (cute-ute) don't want, nor care about off road features. For them, a CRV will do the same thing for less and with a reliability level that LR can only dream of. And even if they do want a more rugged image, they go buy a Liberty which will certainly tackle any off roading the Freelander would... and it's cheaper and more powerful. So: too expensive; too "unreliable" for the people who buy small-utes; the features that set a Free apart from the other cute-utes are not the slightest bit important to the majority of buyers. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't disagree with David's observations, much... If you drive a Liberty and a Freelander back to back, on road or off (as I did before purchasing a Freelander), you will know from the seat of your pants that the Freelander is a more comfortable; more sporty; more rugged vehicle than the Liberty. The problem is, LR can't seem to get people into the Freelander drivers seat for the comparison. Oh yea, the Freelander isn't any more expensive than a Liberty when you compare option packages to be as equal as possible, and, I owned a 89 Wrangler that was in the shop every other month w/ a chronic cracked exhaust manafold. My Freelander hasn't been in the shop for anything serious in over 24,000 miles - every vehicle manufacturer has "issues" at times, and the Freelander reliablility factor is more of a perception than a wide spread relablity. | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 677 Registered: 09-2002 |
I don't think it's a Liberty/Freelander issue or any comparison issue. When my RRC was in the shop last year I rented a Liberty Sport - 2WD - for a few days and it was an absolute piece of shit. I think it's more of a PR issue. Most people in the market for a sub $30k 'SUV' (I hate that word) aren't aware of the Freelander, plain and simple. There's way too much competition in that price range, and it's in your face all day long. The only TV ad I've seen for LR in the last couple of years has been for the new RR. I remember the brief 'take me with you' campaign but how long ago was that? How would the average shopper know to check out the Freelander? You don't see very many on the street, and let's face it, it's not that striking if you do. It's just bad PR. SC | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 447 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL Lets see- The Freelander is about as far away from LR's "historic" core market as you can get. LR dealers are quite a bit less common than you average Toyota, Honda, or even Jeep dealer. Land Rover has not even TRIED to market this vehicle. Do they know something? Land Rover says this is a truly "offroadable" small "SUV" for $mid-twenties. How about a used D2 that can carry alot more for the same $? I don't think many people in that target market think "Land Rover". They go to the same place they bought their Camry, Accord or Taurus and drive off with their "sporty" RAV4, CRV, or Escape. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2003 |
This IS a luxury SUV. As a mind set, because it doesn't have electric seats, some freaks think it is not as equipped as the others. Come to Land Rover Shreveport. My test track is the mud pit out back and the ditches that run through town. If you're not impressed, then we'll go on the highway. | ||
| Bob (Yomtov) Member Username: Yomtov Post Number: 126 Registered: 01-2003 |
Just got a lease price of over $ 400 for an 04 Freelander and that is for 39 months with $ 1000 down. To tell you the truth as much as I like the freshened up 04 model I think that is quite expensive for a car that had a sticker of $ 29,000 | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 643 Registered: 11-2002 |
CRV........... "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2003 |
I just spent a day driving an 04 DII SE that I got as a loaner while my Freelander was in the shop for its 24,000 service. The DII is plain cumbersome and uncomfortable, and except for the 1% of the time where it will go some where I might want to go that my Freelander can't, I wouldn't trade it straight across the board if it meant giving up the 99% of the time the Freelander is a better all around vehicle. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1312 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bill, that says a lot more about you than it does about the vehicles. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2003 |
Probably, but then that's why there are so many different types of vehicles, for different types of people and uses. | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 570 Registered: 02-2002 |
LOL Ho Chung | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1321 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bill, that's very true, and that may be the answer to the question of this thread | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2004 |
You guys are lucky JL isn't listening... LOL, BT. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 652 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes , just like I said. C R V .............. "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2003 |
No Kyle, its not a CRV, far from it. But the average consumer doesn't know that, and elitist Discovery owners look down their noses at it. And that, I think, is the real answer to this question. The US has too many simular small SUV and who want to pay more for a Land Rover, that even the Land Rover commuity barely supports? Answer: only those who figure out that there is something special about the car to make it worth the price. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 653 Registered: 11-2002 |
ok , Bill , lets get into it. First of all. The Discoveries in the driveway out here really are pieces of shit. Hell , they all are if you look at them in one light. BUT , when you put them where they belong then everything becomes clear. So dont give me that elitist bullshit , OK ? Yeah , thanks NOW , tell me the difference under the skin that makes it any different then a CRV ? Hell , its the same right down to the target market it was built for. In fact , tell me all you know about vehicles in general... And I dont mean the shit the salesman told you.... "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ever see a CR-V do any of this? http://www.d-90.com/freelander/ Not a Disco or a Rubicon, but for a "daily driver" it ain't too shabby. Any more questions, Kyle?   | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 689 Registered: 09-2002 |
What? It's driving over some logs and getting wet. I think a CRV could do that. It's an LR so I route for it but please... SC | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2003 |
Show me a CR-V driving over a log pile larger than a few 2 x 4's, forging water deeper than the height of your tennis shoes or trudging through a mud hole stickier than your chewing gum... There are a variety of engineering differences between the two, some I'm aware of and I'm sure, some I'm not. Maybe the difference is more about the confidence owners have in their vehicle, would you do any of this w/ a CR-V? Or maybe its that people who "buy" Land Rovers simply expect their vehicles to do more? I truly don't know. But to address Kyle's "attitude", what I do know is that when I've driven in my neighbor's CR-V I think to myself, "I would never buy this." When he goes w/ me in my Freelander, he asks to drive or to ride along on a simple trail ride. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 384 Registered: 07-2002 |
Well.. before we get carried away with the pictures in that gallery to prove either point. First off, that was a "scouting" trip preparing for a mini dealership run with the ultimate goal of the customers not incurring any damage but having fun. The Freelanders we used were specifically chosen so that, overall, we could be sure we would not take someone who had never been to an event before and put them into a situation where was going to bend of break them. Out of the 2 weekend runs getting the trails and 101 areas set up, there was really only one deep mud section (not pictured in that gallery) and maybe the exit to the water hole pictured there, that I would not have taken a CRV though. Other than that, the 101 course set up in those pictures as well as the rest of the days trail run, was no big deal. It's purpose was to get the participants comfortable with their car and give them some excitement for a day. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2003 |
I hope you didn't mind me using your pictures, Chris. I thought they were a good example of what a Freelander owner could expect their stock car to do, if they "needed" / "wanted" too. What a vehicle actually "does" when challenged is as much about driver skill and experience, so I suppose you're right that a CR-V "could" do some of the things pictured in the hands of the right driver. So I guess the real question is, why don't we see them doing it if they are equal to a Freelander? Is it all about name hype? What makes a Disco any different than other SUV's in its class? I may be wrong, but isn't the difference mostly about suspension, the drive system, and body on frame integrity? A Freelander can do many of the things a Disco can do, and that is proven at MAR and dealer events all the time. It doesn't mean it can do all that a Disco can do. I think the same comaprison is fair about the CR-V and the Freelander. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1324 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bill, there's only one vehicle in the same class as Disco - that is the Grand Cherokee. And there's a lot of differences between them. I liked the shots you posted - but, I don't know if you're aware of this fact, people in other countries drive over obstacles like this in regular 2WD cars. (at least, from what it looks on the photos - CvC knows better). | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 575 Registered: 02-2002 |
oh please peter. a grand cherokee? LOL LOL Ho Chung | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 385 Registered: 07-2002 |
No.. thats cool Bill. I actually had forgotten about that page which is why it has almost no formating to it and never posted the 2nd set of pictures. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1326 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ho, what else has a solid front axle, seats 5 plus junk, and costs in mid-30s? | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 659 Registered: 11-2002 |
So , what you are saying Bill (Without saying anything) is that you dont know a damn thing about what you are speaking and you are posting pics of someone else in someone elses truck doing something that you werent present for. What you DO know is that you can drive to DC in your freelander and see some monuments. As far as the MAR goes.... Well , that answers it all in one statement... You have no low range , you have no lockable center diff. You are driving something that is beaten out by several other models that dont carry a name like "Land Rover". Putting that name on the front of that car is like writing checks that you cant cash... "Blow me" | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 582 Registered: 02-2002 |
sure peter... same class.... LOL man, bouncy checks. LO LLOL OLOLOL Ho Chung | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1327 Registered: 09-2002 |
i take it back, ho. same market niche. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kyle, are you always such as ass, or is it just that time of the month? There you go again, "You have no low range , you have no lockable center diff..." "Putting that name on the front of that car is like writing checks that you cant cash..." Bla, bla, bla... You don't own or drive a Freelander. I doubt if you you've ever even tried the thing (certainly not with an open mind anyway), but yet you continually pop in on threads about the car and make snide comments about it like some sorta of jackass. If that's not an "elitist" attitude, I guess i don't know what is... But then I shouldn't be surprised, you don't even think much of your fellow Discovery owners vehicles, "The Discoveries in the driveway out here really are pieces of shit" - isn't that what you said? So I shouldn't expect anything better about a smaller, mostly on road car that some executive dare to label with the same brand name as your holier-than-thou trail rig. I used Chris' pictures because I thought they did a very nice job of showing the car. Those were BTW a damn site better than this pathetic example of common sense:  | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1575 Registered: 02-2003 |
oh ,shit.... not the tick pic.. lol | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 660 Registered: 11-2002 |
LOL , yes ,the tick pic... Now what the hell does the statement you qouted have to do with anyones trucks but mine ? And , what have you answered in this thread ? Now you try to redirect instead of putting your money where your mouth is. The above pic was taken in a place you will never see with your freelander in a situation you will never be in while cruising the monuments in DC. Even when it comes to the pics you try to redirect. I dont give a shit why you used them .I wanna know why you arent using yours ? If all you have done is commute in that cute little car then you should probably remain silent when talk of other arenas comes up. YOU certainly have no first hand experience beyond commuting... If you are going to tell me its better on road then mine then I gotta say. No shit!!! There are an ass load of cars that are better on road then mine and those (Just like yours) are better to stay on that road and not venture off.. Again , I am asking flat out. What the hell do you know about the car you are driving outside of how much gas it takes to fill it ? How about its brethren ? How about any damn car or truck on the road ? "Blow me" | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 690 Registered: 09-2002 |
"A Freelander can do many of the things a Disco can do, and that is proven at MAR and dealer events all the time." Oh yeah, MAR, I'm glad you brought that up: http://www.formatc.org/freelander/darby/index.htm http://www.freelanderowners.com/forum/showthread.php?s=798a52e195d126c8a824602a8 f27abd8&threadid=976 Thanks SC | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2003 |
I have never followed a Discovery or Range Rover through something were I did not go through the same stuff. I don't know about your vehicles, but my SE has seen the same mud as Discos and RR, but the one thing about the Freelander is my offroad approach is just a little different. The freelander is a lot more fun offroad because it takes skill to drive it in the most extreme conditions (or just messing up and learning from your mistakes). The Freelander is the most fun vehicle I have every been around. I really think we need to leave the CR-V out of our friendly thread here. I sell for a company that has Honda next door. They are great for what their intended to do but they need not be mentioned again on a board like this (THEY DON'T APPLY). | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 461 Registered: 10-2002 |
"The Freelander is the most fun vehicle I have ever been around." If that statement is factual then I pity you. Have you been driving a 1982 Plymouth Reliant K-car your entire life? The CRV is a direct competitor to the Freelander whether you believe it or not. Now, does British crap smell better than Japanese crap? I really don't know... Next time your LR dealership gets a used D90 on the lot, take it for a test drive offroad-it'll be an epiphany. BTW-How can you say the Freelander is "more fun" than an E55, Gelaendewagen, S55, or even C32? I would have picked the C32 for my own driver. Since you work there you could've gotten a C230 for well under $30k. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2003 |
Steve: Thank you for offering the link to freelanderowners.com. I'm new to these formums, and while I have posted there, I hadn't seen that discussion from 2002. It explains a lot! First, I guess you were infurring that the Freelander is a piece of crap because one broke down at MAR? I see no argument about the car's ability or worth because one "modified" vehcile had mechanical problems. Unless of course, you want to propose that the Disco (or any other vehicle) has never had mechancial failure or damage from the trail, driver error or just a hard recovery... Secondly, by reading the thread beyond the MAR breakdown in 2002, I found that the Freelander bashing isn't anything new from some of you on DiscoWeb. Apparently forum members (and moderators, ha) have been trash talking the Freelander since day one. Which leads us back to the only question that is relavant on this thread: WHY POOR SALES ON FREELANDER? IMO a) To much competition of simularly styled vehicles, such as the CR-V, Ford Escape, Jeep Liberty, etc., etc., etc. and Land Rover (who invented the market niche with the Freelander) isn't looked at as a traditional retailer in the USA for people looking for a smaller family car. In England and parts of Europe Land Rover has a greater percentage of the existing market share. b) Land Rover has the reputation among the casual consumer for making "tough", "unique", "unreliable" and "old fashion" vehciles. Little of which appeals to the general demographics who are looking for a small family car. c) Noting Kyle's earlier comment which I think goes to the heart of this issue, "Putting that name on the front of that car is like writing checks that you cant cash..." Obviously many Land Rover owners look down their noses at the vehicle, thinking that the company somehow compromised its integrity by watering down the model line with a vehicle that wasn't, in their minds, a traditional "Land Rover", and maybe in some juvenile way even feel "betrayed." This exacerbates the problem for Land Rover and the Freelander. If LR owners don't think its worth a damn, then why would a anyone who wasn't even a fan of Land Rover to begin with risk buying it...? Especially when there are so many well known, well marketed, safe, reliable, even "comfortable" alternatives to choose from. Land Rover is missing the boat... Dispite some "elitist" BS about comarping the Freelander to vehicles like the Discovery, the Freelander really is a great vehcile in its own right. This is witnessed by many regular owners, like myself, who have no prior history with Land Rover (owned 2 Jeeps previously) who tout its qualities. With the exception of the occassional Freelander owner who has experienced repeated mechanical problems (the same type of gremlin issues apparently traditional of ALL LR vehicles) I haven't found anyone who has said, "this isn't one of the best, most fun, most amasing cars they have ever owned." But unless that message gets out there, the car will merely be a foot note in American automotive history. Is the vehcile built to take you anywhere? NO. But it will take you most places you would want to risk going in ANY stock vehicle. And at the same time, its a very sporty and nimble car onroad. Putting my money where my mouth is, the next time we get a nice serious ice storm in the DC area, I'll offer to meet Kyle with his trail modified Disco and we can take a little tour around the DC monuments - I've got $500 says he can't keep up! Anyone else want a piece of that action? | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 546 Registered: 02-2002 |
Ben, I think marketing is and has been a huge issue for Land Rover across the board. I don't think it is an overstatement to say that since Range Rover North America became Land Rover North America, they have botched just about every opportunity they've been given to educate the public on what the brand has to offer. Most people have no idea where one vehicle in the range falls versus the others, and Ford needs to address this directly. Also, the Freelander is overpriced. I drove a 2003 Certified SE with all the options just today and the dealer could not let it go for less than the lease price on a brand new loaded 2004 SE (now the base model four-door). They had no explanation of how this dis-incentive might be affecting their sales. In 2002, Land Rover moved over 15,000 units in the U.S., 9,529 in 2003 and they're on-course to do the same in 2004 with only 700 sold to-date. My D1 is paid for, and will likely leak in my driveway for another two years before I build a Defender to replace it. The Freelander, ostensibly purchased to placate my wife, will only be with us for two or three years. I think paying $350 a month against 60 months on $16,000 is ridiculous at best. That's after we put $2500 down on the "heavily discounted" 2002 7,000 mile SE. There is a disconnect at the top that is hurting sales, and I think is directly connected to having the Discovery too close in price to the Freelander - even the base SE model. My personal opinion is that the Freelander is perfectly capable for most people with a casual interest in off-highway use. While it may be that the users of this forum look down on the shortfalls of the Freelander when compared to Discovery, Range Rover (through P38s) and Defenders, I seriously doubt it is even remotely affecting sales. Like the Discovery did in the nineties, I think the Freelander could really help the marquee number-wise -- were it priced and marketed appropriately. e | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 662 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dont compare it to JUST a Disco , comapre it to any land rover made.... Will it run with them ? NO... Will the Rangie run with the defender ? Yep.Certainly it wont be as easy but it will do it and its just a tough , always has been. Will the Disco run with the defender and the rangie ? Yep , I think we have well proven that time and time again. Will the freelander run with its brothers in an arena that gave LAND ROVER its reputaion??? Hell no , it wont... That name printed out on the front of your cute little car became what it is from doing exactly what you think isnt necissary. You want to put them up on some pedistal so that the status you think you got remains in tact. The facts are , they SUCK in so many ways that its not funny. But , I didnt buy it for its cushy ride or its sleek aerodynmic body , or for its mileage or reliability. I bought it for its survivability and ability to take me where your freelander wont. In fact "Land Rover Freelander" is an oxymoron.. Now isnt it ? And anytime you want to lose that 500 just let me know....PLease dont hold it against me if the •••••••••• accidently gets stuck in one of my tires... "Blow me" | ||
| Matthew A. Barnes (Discoveryxd) Senior Member Username: Discoveryxd Post Number: 387 Registered: 08-2003 |
"c) Noting Kyle's earlier comment which I think goes to the heart of this issue, "Putting that name on the front of that car is like writing checks that you cant cash..." Obviously many Land Rover owners look down their noses at the vehicle, thinking that the company somehow compromised its integrity by watering down the model line with a vehicle that wasn't, in their minds, a traditional "Land Rover", and maybe in some juvenile way even feel "betrayed." This exacerbates the problem for Land Rover and the Freelander. If LR owners don't think its worth a damn, then why would a anyone who wasn't even a fan of Land Rover to begin with risk buying it...? Especially when there are so many well known, well marketed, safe, reliable, even "comfortable" alternatives to choose from." When I first saw the Freelander, I didn't like the idea/look of it at all. Being a LR owner for several years, I always thought of them as rugged offroad vehicles that have a great "character" and uniqueness to them. Yes you could say the Freelander has "character" and is unique, but it sure as hell didn't look like a capable offroad vehicle at that time (when they first came out). That's why I think LR owners weren't happy about the new arrival of a less capable, lower ground clearance, independent suspension Land Rover. "If LR owners don't think its worth a damn, then why would a anyone who wasn't even a fan of Land Rover to begin with risk buying it...?" Maybe those folks "risked" buying it because it does appeal to them, while the RR and disco don't. That could be the reason why previous LR owners won't buy the Freelander, because it is so different. So maybe the majority of Freelander owners are first time LR buyers? I also have $500 that say you couldn't keep up with Kyle on the trail. That's no different than saying he couldn't keep up with you on the streets. I know if I wanted a car that was fun to drive around town, I'd pick a fast little sports car, not a Freelander. I guess if you wanted a vehicle that was a little sporty on road, and pretty capable offroad, then I could see buying a Freelander. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 397 Registered: 07-2002 |
Tit for tat.. you have the sand for putting up $500 and see if you can keep up with his or mine or any other modified disco on the trails? The offer to put your money where your mouth is is an empty offer. No one has disputed that the Freelanader is a better bad weather road truck. I own an SE3 myself and I will be right up in front of the line of people to say my SE3 will kick my Discos ass on road in bad or good weather. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 923 Registered: 02-2003 |
Agreed. I also own a Freelander S, and there is no question that it will kick my modified Disco's ass on road. It handles better, has more power, and gets better mileage. And, it's fun to drive. But I would not take it through Rubicon. That being said, i think Land Rover's marketing (or lack thereof) of the Freelander is the reason for it's poor sales. For the uninitiated, the green oval equals a $60k sticker price. Most people looking for a truck in the Freelander's class, will not even walk into a Land Rover dealership because of the perception that all Land Rovers are expensive luxury vehicles. That is the image Land Rover has built for itself here in the US, at least. Question is, is Ford willing to dillute that image in order to sell more Freelanders? Time will tell. - Axel | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2003 |
Matthew: When you said, "I guess if you wanted a vehicle that was a little sporty on road, and pretty capable offroad, then I could see buying a Freelander." It summed up what is special about this vehicle. It won't keep up w/ a Disco (modified or otherwise), but it can, and does, go pretty far off road. It can't beat a TT or any other sports car, but it zips around on the road pretty damn well. If LR could get that message out, I think their would be more potential buyers. Kyle rants, "The facts are , they SUCK in so many ways that its not funny." "BS" So why all the Freelander bashing? God forbid that such a small family vehicle may in fact carry the Land Rover name for good reason... I didn't buy it to turn it into a trail rig, although I have taken it off road and intend to do more. I bought it because I loved the way it drove, that is seemed to be built stouter than anything in its class, and that I felt confident it would get me and my family anywhere we wanted to go, dispite terrain or weather, ergo the name "Land Rover". | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 925 Registered: 02-2003 |
I think Fords dilemma is this: How do you get across that the Freelander is a good, road biased, reasonably (at least it was in 2002) priced vehicle, without dilluting the high end, high priced, luxury image that Land Rovers have achieved? - Axel | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 462 Registered: 10-2002 |
"who invented that niche with the Freelander" What? BMW looked at RAV4 sales and decided to develop the Freelander. If you're looking at onroad driveability in winter conditions and the occasional dirt road then there are a plethora of vehicles out there that do that as well or better than the Freelander. On one end of the spectrum you have affordable high performance vehicles like the Subaru WRX and Mitsu Lancer Evo and, to a lesser extent, the new VW R32. Any one of which can easily outperform the Freelander in ANY condition onroad or on a dirt road (rallying). In mild offroad conditions I find the Freelander amazingly similiar to a RAV4 or Liberty (I haven't driven a CRV!) in that I found myself easily getting in trouble with no low range or articulation to fall back on. I found myself wishing I was in an old Suzuki Sammy! If an "elite" or "European" AWD SUV is what you want then there's everything from an MB ML to BMW X5 or the new X3, Volvo XC90, Porsche Cayenne, VW Tourag, to AWD cars like the Audi S4 and other quattro's etc. etc. What does the Freelander offer that the others don't? The "Land Rover" name on the hood. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2003 |
Greg: Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think BMW looked at RAV-4 sales in the US and said to themselves, "we already have this niche here in Europe, let's try and go after it in the US." Comparing Freelander sales or performance with a BMW X-3 or a CR-V is fair, but when it comes to the Volvo XC90, the Porche, the X-5, etc, etc, these are all priced near or above the price of a Disco, not a Freelander. I have driven the Volvo, both BMW's and the Tourag. Of those, the X-3 is the most like the Freelander, and the X-5 is the nicest all around vehicle, but its priced in the 40K's. The VW as well as the F series Infinity are great so-called "cross-over" vehciles, but I wouldn't take them where I'd comfortably take my FL (personal opinion, not that the VW couldn't, it might). | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2004 |
Thought I would join in on this lively discussion to answer the original question... The Freelander Sales are poor in Nth America for one simple reason. It is not the quality or performance of the FL, nor the price, or the Disco and older Landie owners bagging them. It is because LR missed one essential fact when conducting it's original market research for the FL (prior to it's release and now too !). Owners of most 'soft roaders' both current and prospective don't really give a damn about it's off-road ability. The Freelander was the best selling soft-roader in the UK and Europe for several years simply because they created the niche. However prior to the FL release in Nth America there was a flood of other vehicles also filling the niche, which already had the reputation and sales over and above the FL. BMW always wanted to release the FL in Nth America from day one, but knew that the 1.8lt and diesel would not cut it, so waited till the V6 was available. And even now with the V6 sales have not been spirited for lack of a better word. Sales are the same here in Oz, for the same reasons stated above. Most people don't want a vehicle derived (yes... I can use that word for the FL since it has the same TCS, ABS, VC, and design as other LRs) from hard-core 4wd heritage just to go to the shops, hence why the cheaper options (RAV-4, CRV, Forester) are favoured. One day LR may wake up and realise that 'LAND ROVER' plastered on the bonnet will not sell cars. Like Ben, I too have worked in the car industry selling Nissan, Peugeot, SAAB, BMW, Volvo, and VW, yet I still bought a Freelander ('02 SE 3dr). In fact I have owned the FL brand longer than anyone in Nth America after owning an XEdi for 2yrs and my current car since late '02. I love them because the FL does exactly what I want and expect it to do. I know it is not a Disco and never want it to be. I would have bought a Disco if I wanted 7 seats and low range. However I have confidently taken my FL to places which most soft-roaders would not go (thanks to TCS). One situation only a heavily modified Nissan Patrol was able to do what I did. So to Kyle and other avid Disco owners out there... please don't bag the FL unless you have been to the extreme in it - it is not a bad thing. Oh, and remember that bagging a FL is also reflecting on the Disco brand too. You are lucky that Nissan Nth America does not market the Patrol, and Toyota the Base model Landcruiser there... or all of a sudden you would find Disco's becoming less popular too. I have driven these vehicles along with Discos off road, so I know exactly what I am talking about. In summary Ben, I think if you actually did get bums in seats you would sell more FL's. It's just poaching those Honda clients from next door that is the difficult problem ! Enjoy your FL... I love mine, and really think it looks ten times better than a RAV-4 or CRV any day | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 548 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill and Kyle, Why don't you gather up a stock, open diff. D1 and stock Freelander and let's see what happens? I'll dedicate two or three pages to the tests and shoot it with a couple of cameras. Just about anywhere in the mid-Atlantic is fine with me. Just name the time and place. e | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 400 Registered: 07-2002 |
See.. that's the problem. Lets see someone doing just that. No one has seen a Freelander taken to an extreme or even on the more "extreme" harder type trails some of us have lead/spotted stock RR's, Discos, & 90's through so all this is just hot air about it running with modified trucks until someone actually does and shows the pictures. And let me clarify.. I am talking about trails that push these truck to the upward limits of the average wheeler and the stock trucks abilities without unnecessary damage. Anyone can say "Oh it will run with the modified trucks" but that is a worthless statement until we see it done which has not happened. I see of plenty of "modified" Discos getting/have been set up by the dealership that only will ever see dirt once a year at dealership events. The owners get these trucks set up so they look cool to them and the fact that the truck can actually 4wheel is beside the point. The point is that its an empty statement as any experienced wheeler of just about any 4x4 could remove their front drive shaft and run with these "modified once a year wheeling" owners. Erik - on FreelanderLiving, I already offered to guide modified Freelanders (or brave stock owners) through a few trails at Paragon that I would consider to be a safe upper limit test of stock or modified Freelanders. From this thread on FreelanderLiving.com http://www.freelanderliving.com/bb_board/topic.asp?whichpage=2&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPI C_ID=1460 posted 10/10/03:
So the offer is there the next time the group comes back this way and I will be glad to help guide if someone wants to try something a little harder than what they have previously done. Unfortanatly there just is not a lot of Freelander owners in this area that wheel them let alone would feel comfortable doing something harder so I have to wait until the gang comes back. Again, I am not challenging anyone or issuing a dare for someone to go do something stupid. I offered the option for it as I have run/guided enough stock trucks in the park that there are some good trails that can be a good test of the upper abilities of the modified Freelanders on trails that are known to be the upper level that I would guide a stock Disco with a careful minded driver through. I think a Freelander can do some of these trails safely, but ultimately its up to the owner if he feels safe doing it. After all, most of us do need these things to get us to work come Monday morning and smartly, that does weigh heavy in some peoples mind when they wheel so they just don’t go out and smash their truck to pieces. CVC | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 549 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris, Yes, I don't see why we would need to do anything other than test the much-hyped "old technology" versus the Land Rover-hyped ETC / EBDS technology. I think mods should be strictly limited to choice in tires and underbody protection at most. Now, is there actually a D1 owner here on Discoweb running a stock truck!? Perhaps we could start a thread in the Event Section where we could debate exactly what we would like to see on the day of testing? e | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 401 Registered: 07-2002 |
Let me slightly correct myself... when I made the original post on FreelanderLiving, I actually had trails in mind that the lifted Freelanders should be able to get through without getting real damage. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 402 Registered: 07-2002 |
Erik, I spent a few weekends wheeling in some stock Freelanders and while I can say that I still dont have close to the full feeling of how the truck performs off road or its limits as a full time Freelander owner/wheeler (meaning someone whos Freelander is their primary driver and wheeler) has for their truck, I do have a better appriciation for its abilities after spending the short time in them and actually using and seeing the "new technology" in action. Simply put, in my opinion based on my real hands on experiances, I would agree it's more capable than a lot of non-owners think. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 666 Registered: 11-2002 |
No man , let them mod the piss out of the freebie..... The more you do to it the worse it becomes.. "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2003 |
Erik: I think you're idea for a story comparing the abilities of a Freelander to a Disco would be terrific. While I never said I thought a FL could match up w/ a Disco off-road, I believe it is a much better off-road vehicle than some on the board seem to give it credit for. To be fair, I think an "on-road" element should also be included, that way the reader could see the strengths and weaknesses of each vehicle. Things like acceleration, braking, cornering, and wet surface slalom. I think using completely stock vehicles would be a better illustration of the points. That way a run could be devised that made it clear what the respective vehicle, coming right off the showroom floor, could do, or not do. Most buyers don't do body lifts or buy aggressive MT tires. From that, maybe a follow up test about how modifications can improve performance - there are few proven modifications for the Freelander compared to what's out there for the Disco. I'll be happy to help in any way that I can, including showing up and helping with "whatever." But to be fair, if you have a seasoned off-road veteran behind the wheel of the Disco, you should have the same for the Freelander - maybe we could use the same impartial driver to run a straight forward test of both vehicles. Chris/Axel, are either of you interested? | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 391 Registered: 02-2002 |
The freelander is a total abortion, and LRNA knows it. There has been a lot of serious thought given to just dropping the truck/car all together. Its biggest problem is that its ok at certain things, but its not good at anything. Its a crossbreed that never should have been. It has decent on road handling, but it certainly wouldnt rank in the top 50 road handling vehicles on the market right now. If you want a road handler with foul weather capablility, the Impreza, the quattro audis and the AWD S60 will run circles around an FL. Theyll provide more road feedback, a more pleasurable driving experience and a manual trans. I dont see how any "road handler" can be considered a "fun" vehicle with a auto box. And the FL "steptronic" is great if you dont mind waiting 3 seconds for your shift. Now comes the arguement that is the best "off-roader" in its class. Again, not much of a statement there, as its class includes the CR-v, RAV4, Element, Vue and Grand vitara and 2 legitmate SUVS, the Xterra and the Liberty. Legitamate meaning they can actually traverse mild trails. To say you are the top of that class isnt saying all that much. I respect guys like Axel and Chris who purchased the vehicles due to a love of the product. For both of them its not their only Land Rover and both admit for the real Land Rover stuff they leave the freelander in the garage. But to come on here and defend the freelander and offer an on-road challenge around DC in the rain is just ridiculous. And against a Disco no less?? A truck that has obvious shortcomings, but does what it was designed to do without excuses, and doesnt try to be a "little-bit" good at all things. Try the great DC run with WRXs and TTs and see how lost the Freelander gets. Try to run the trails with Discos, D90s, Classics or even P38s and see how lost the freelander gets. The freelander doesnt sell because its not Land Rover DNA, its LR mixed with a lot of BMW and thats like breeding a Husky with a show poodle, your result would be frightening. To further kill the vehicle they dropped prices (even though they didnt, theyll have everyone belive they did.) which devalued all FLs already on the road. Everybody knows the truck was a mistake, and its not good enough at anything to make it a big hit. In automotive history it will disappear much like the rest of the mediocre products that get thrown at us every year. If the freelander scares the LR purist just wait to see what else is down the road, its horrifying. Its no longer BMW DNA involved, its Ford DNA. 04 Series II is the last real Land Rover. The replacment L319 or whatever numerical badge they will give it is like a bigger more expensive freelander, with more toys, 300 horse, and some offroad ability, but nothing like the D1s, D90s, or Classics. Not to mention that LRs demographic for the FL couldnt have been further off the mark. They wanted to attract "active young single males". They got senior citizens, and young single women, the exact opposite of what they wanted. LR has always been a confused brand but the intro of the FL is just the beginning of the downfall of Land Rover as we know it. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow... amazing how passionate someone gets over a car they don't own and probably have never driven more than 30 minutes around a dealership. So, Gil. What you're saying is that the Freelander isn't as road worthy as a S60 or a TT (dah)- but you should admit it would be much better "off" road than either. And that it isn't as "off-road" worthy as a Disco or a Defender (double dah) - but you should admit that it would be much better "on" road than either. To me that creates a niche market where someone who wanted a bit of offroad prowess but not sacrafice too much onroad ability would just love a Freelander - that is if we could ever get their butts in the seat long enough. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2002 |
I'd offer my own D1 as the stocker truck, but it has a 2" OME HD lift. I'd like the D1 to have its anti-roll bars fitted, and a standard shock / spring set-up as well. I agree that the test vehicle owners should consider allowing a mutually-agreed upon driver for the testing. What I'd like to see is how well the Freelander compensates for limited travel on uneven surfaces etcetera. Crawling over more treacherous large rocks would certainly call for each vehicle to have a set of sliders fitted in addition to diff. guards at minimum. Other thoughts? e | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 463 Registered: 10-2002 |
Passionate? Well here's a beautiful, simple 2WD vehicle that I bet could kick FL ass offroad: http://www.kooblekar.com/ "Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity" Plato (427-347 BC) hehe | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 551 Registered: 02-2002 |
Greg, Does that shitbox run on some kind of Nazi gerbil power or is there something beside the rolling chassis and shit fibreglas body they offer? Maybe the drivetrain page is something I missed. Oh, let me guess, it runs on a 1600cc variant. I'll pass. e | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 393 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Wow... amazing how passionate someone gets over a car they don't own and probably have never driven more than 30 minutes around a dealership." Actually Bill, I spend about 8 hours per DAY with these silly trucks. See, I manage at a LR Centre, so Im overly familiar with the vehicle. I spent a week off road with it in the deserts in and around Vegas and Lake Mead. Im probably more familiar with it capababilities than you are. Usually, I drive one when I go to lunch EVERY day. Why do I take the FL, becuase I know the FL demo wont be missed as nobody comes in to look at them. "So, Gil. What you're saying is that the Freelander isn't as road worthy as a S60 or a TT (dah)- but you should admit it would be much better "off" road than either." What?? Of course it would. I also own a TT and i wouldnt take the damn thing down a dirt road, but damn man, who would?? Its obviously not an "off-road" vehcile. On Road its probably one of the tightest, most enjoyable cars Ive ever driven. "And that it isn't as "off-road" worthy as a Disco or a Defender (double dah) - but you should admit that it would be much better "on" road than either." Of course Ill admit that, but again.. I think your missing the point. My point was that the freelander is a compromise at best. Its on road ability is compromised by its need to have some off-road ability, but off-road ability is compromised by its need to have decent on road ability. Any 95-02 p38 range has impeccable road manners, suprisingly it holds corners, is stable at speed, and is an all around joy to drive, but yet in stock form it can hang with most discos and d90s when the asphalt ends. Thats a land rover. Not one that is "ok" on road and "ok" off road. Its gets back to the basics of what Land Rover is and was. If your only familiarity with LR is the Freelander I can see where your arguements come from. Im not saying you made a bad choice Bill, if the FL provides you with pleasure both on and off road, if you look at it your driveway and are proud to own it, then thats all that counts. For you.. Im glad that you are a "passionate" freelander owner, i wish there were more of them. A D90, disco or even a range rover would probably never appeal to you, you are a freelander buyer. Those 3 trucks are probably the only 3 id ever consider. I am a Land Rover buyer. See the difference? We want different things from our vehicles. Ill give up some on road manners for the intense off-road ability. Im not willing to make compromises on my vehciles. For a road handling fun car, we got a TT. Its no compromise, is it practical?? hell no. will it go off road?? if i can help it, no. Does it handle like its on rails and hookup like it was fired out of a cannon.. yes. For me, the audi does the road chores, the rovers handle the other stuff. The beauty of being human is that we can rationalize and justify just about anything. YOu own a freelander and for you it works, thats great. For most people it doesnt. That was the point. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 464 Registered: 10-2002 |
LOL- It actually is available in sheetmetal body and uses any VW air-cooled engine you choose to install, Type I to IV. So I suppose you could put a 2700 cc bored and stroked type IV in there. I think it's hilarious- Getting back to the Freelander-I have driven it "offroad" and I think it is just too limited in ground clearance and traction to be of any use. Here in California the trails are either dirt roads (you could handle them in 2WD) or have obstacles that would cause damage or need alot of recovery help (with no recovery points!) That leaves us with an "image" vehicle equivalent to the Jeep Liberty. I admit that that's the reason 99.9% of all "SUV's" are sold anyway and LR/BMW was just going after a growing market trend. But that's why I'm not interested in 99.9% of the "SUV's" out there. If I wrecked my RRC I would be looking at a used RRC, D90 or maybe a D1. Not a new LR. Bill-The RAV4 hit the market in 1994, the Freelander in 1997. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 667 Registered: 11-2002 |
As I said , "Land Rover , Freelander" is an oxymoron... "Blow me" | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hey Bill , here's something interesting... Quote from - http://www.freelanderliving.com/bb_board/topic.asp?whichpage=1&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPI C_ID=1460, "While I am dreaming of closing a deal on a Disco, in the Hippo's favor is definately on-road driving, especially twisting and winding roads. I think it drives closer to a sports car..." So you bought the Freelander and now your trying to sell yourself on it ? | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 668 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now that is funny............ "Blow me" | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 403 Registered: 07-2002 |
I'm up for it. I don’t think you have to have a super seasoned veteran especially someone who may have never even driven a Freelander before as the driving styles are completely different (again, my opinion based on my own experiences of the differences of driving the two), just someone who has been wheeling a bit and is very comfortable with their Freelander, willing to go on a trail that might looks scarier than what they might be used to, and most importantly can take direction and listen to what a spotter is telling them and not panic and do something silly.
Hold on now... I admit only that the trails I like to run most are not something that Freelanders are suited for so a Freelander is not an ideal replacement trail vehicle for me but for people who enjoy more relaxed outings or general purpose, the Freelander is a good option and they are out there doing it. I choose to add a Freelander to my driveway for a better daily driver, something more sporty, and could be parked in normal garages as well as it carried the Rover name and can handle bad conditions. Everyone that wheels what ever Rover they own is doing "real Land Rover stuff", and this is shown time and time again at national events and dealership events. People with their Rovers, out on the trails are doing it, some nice and easy, some hardcore. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 929 Registered: 02-2003 |
I'd be interested in getting it on tape for a segment in a future Dweb video, sure. - Axel | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2004 |
In reality, Bill's comments may hold the answer to this thread. The Freelander is just kinda there... it is not an exceptional offroader it is not a competent sports car, people hauler, cargo hauler, has no stunning appeal and does not offer spectacular fuel efficiency or a bargain price point. Sure, it is probably adequate at all of the above, but it lacks personality, you know... that 'gotta-have-it' magic. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gil: If you manager at a LR Centre and your opinion is that the Freelander is an "abortion," that tells a great deal towards the answer to this thread. Based upon your stated experience you obviously know a great deal more about all of the LR products than I do, including the Freelander. But if your opinion is truly based upon first hand experience, then other LR professionals must also agree with you... The Sales Guide at Symes in Pasadena, CA told me, "it is an amasing car" and "he takes it on trails runs all the time and keeps up with a good bit of the fun with the Disco's." Either your judgement of the car is clouded by your desire for LR to maintain their purist inventory, or my sales guy was just another lying car salesman... Seeings how I'm the guy who wrote the check, have driven over 12,000 miles in the last 6 months and totally agree with the Symes Sales guide assesement, I wonder what your opinion is truly based upon? As a first time Land Rover buyer, the Freelander introduced me to the brand and the enticed me into an environment that I found to be unique - forums like this, dealer events, clubs, etc. When I had my Jeeps, I didn't participate with any of the above, even though their clubs have been around a while. Bruno: Quote: "So you bought the Freelander and now your trying to sell yourself on it?" Lol, well I certainly am taking a lot of abuse on behalf of my car choice, but I doubt that is what you mean. Your referecing me from Freelanderliving is accurate, but you certainly tried to spin it the wrong way. I'll be buying a new vehcile this summer and I loved the Freelander so much that I was looking forward to adding a Disco II to my personal inventory. That decision is up in the air at the moment, perhaps the DIII will be just "my kind of a car." You won't find a thread anywhere on Freelanderliving, Freelanderowner or here where I say anything about regretting my purchase of the Freelander or plansd to get rid of it in the forseeable future (w/ one minor exception where I said I hoped I wouldn't fall victim to the LR Gremlin that have attack as some owners I know). This has been an interesting discussion. I happen to think a few of you are simply closed minded. But you'll probably be the same ones bashing the new DIII or Ranger Storm when they hit the market. So in that sense I don't take it personal. Am I happy with my purchase, yep. This is demonstrated by my participation with others who own the same vehicle, organizing a road rally, particiating with others on trail runs and taking the time and money to turn it into more of a hobby than a method of transportation. You Disco folks are a pretty hard core bunch, and I admire that. But I do think its a little like shooting yourself's in the foot to not be a little more open minded - especially for those of you who make a living off of the sales of these things. The health of any company is dependent upon it successfully competing for market share in its market. From what I've seen, most of you hard core types don't buy new vehicles anyway, you buy used ones and modify them (good idea). But the long term health of LR is dependent upon it attracting new customers (like me), not simply satisying old purists! | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 33 Registered: 01-2004 |
Bill, "Am I happy with my purchase, yep." I respect that! "The health of any company is dependent upon it successfully competing for market share" Agreed! "But the long term health of LR is dependent upon it attracting new customers (like me), not simply satisying old purists!" agreed again! - We have two Freelanders in our local club, the key is trail ratings. They are just as good a people as any, and will be the first to be objective (and realistic) with regard to their trucks. Get the Discovery, you'll love it, keep the Freelander, you'll have a nice duo! | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2004 |
"The freelander is a total abortion, and LRNA knows it. There has been a lot of serious thought given to just dropping the truck/car all together." You work for LR UK do you and know this for a fact ? Remember LRNA is not the 'be all and end all'. And the have NEVER thought of dropping the truck - not after it held 'BEST' soft-roader in Europe and the UK for 3 years (and that was before the V6). Oh, and of course they would be trying to finish the model by spending more money on a face-lift and actually adding models to the line (even if NA And Oz will not see the sports version). Oh yes... the 'Sports' model ! - the first intelligent move LR has made with marketing the FL in years. For those who think it does not handle on the road as well as a sports car, think again. Don't get me talking about how a TT handles in the wet (hello understeer - even the Quattro pushed hard in the dry), and my Z3 2.0 suspension was all over the place. Not so in my FL. And for all those who don't think a FL is as good as a Disco off-road... I can tell you from personal experience that BOTH my FL's have romped past Discos and RRs (and all different kinds of Jeeps for that matter!) bogged in soft sand. That's right... soft sand beach driving is off-road too. Sure it's not rock climbing, but get bogged in the wrong place and the sea eats your car !!! And before you question my experience with LR product, I learnt how to drive in a 110 County 3.9 Diesel on the beach and on the road - will all due respect, what a barge. "I think your missing the point. My point was that the freelander is a compromise at best. Its on road ability is compromised by its need to have some off-road ability, but off-road ability is compromised by its need to have decent on road ability." Didn't you just describe EVERY soft-roader ? Of course the FL is a compromise - othewise LR would have released a car that would have competed directly with the D90, which they didn't want it to do. "No man , let them mod the piss out of the freebie..... The more you do to it the worse it becomes.." sort of like the more you modify a Disco the less of a Land Rover it becomes, hey Kyle ? Sure it becomes a better Hard core off road vehicle, but a similar modified Nissan Patrol would eat it. "The freelander doesnt sell because its not Land Rover DNA, its LR mixed with a lot of BMW and thats like breeding a Husky with a show poodle, your result would be frightening." Obviously you have not driven many BMW's... I would relate them more to a Greyhound - Excellent on road manners and the M3 is a blast. Oh, and they do cross breed Huskys with Greyhounds - I rode with some in Canada sledding. They apparently make the best 'pulling' dogs for sledding. "I dont see how any "road handler" can be considered a "fun" vehicle with a auto box" That is why BMW does not sell any SMGs ??? so why did they fit the SMG to the CSL ? "Not to mention that LRs demographic for the FL couldn’t have been further off the mark. They wanted to attract "active young single males". " Actually I have been one of those during ownership of both my FL's. And have a friend who also fits that demographic. How far off the mark can that be ? "and young single women," And what is so wrong about that ??? ” but it lacks personality” Actually, I think all its idiosyncrasies give it more personality than any CRV Rav or Forester will ever have. "See, I manage at a LR Centre", "I drive one when I go to lunch EVERY day. Why do I take the FL, because I know the FL demo wont be missed as nobody comes in to look at them." Come on... I cannot believe that ! All my Managers I have worked under took the 200SX/Viggen/9-3Conv/206CC/330CiConv/Mini cooper S/XC70/XC90/or any used Porsche on the lot ! If you really despised the FL that much, you wouldn't drive it at all. You say it won't be missed... of course not with that attitude towards selling them. Back to the original question - 'Why poor sales on the Freelander". Gil just answered that. Thanks ! Can just hear it when a customer walks in... "Well Sir, the Freelander is just ok on and off road" HA ! One more sale to Honda. In summary its a wonder why you cannot understand the low FL sales... Look at this thread and you will see most Disco owners don't like them (even Dealerships that sell them ?). Like I said originally, the attitude Land Rover owners hold of ALL Land Rovers does reflect directly on all the Land Rover products. It is one of the Key elements in any marketing/sales... the best Ambassador for any product is the person who already has the product - as long as they don't criticize it! | ||
| Andy Nichols (Lrcb40) New Member Username: Lrcb40 Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2002 |
Gil: There's no BMW DNA in the Freelander - none at all. They had it designed and built before the buy out. Bill, I'm in general agreement with you. Some of these folks just don't get it! (not you, Bruno!!) | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2004 |
Actually there is some BMW DNA in the FL... but not much. The TD4 engine that Nth America does not see is the BMW 2.0lt Diesel unit. And the FL/Disco/RR Alarm/immobilizer is also BMW. Also the rear Tailgate glass mechanism. BTW, we all know that the new RR is very much BMW, yet no one is calling that frightening !? | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 394 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill.. maybe your sales guide was another lying salesman who wanted a commision to pay his rent, and unfortunately alot of LR sales guides dont know shit about LRs, its a sad fact. or maybe, he like you, thinks its all that and a box of craker jacks. We all have different perspectives. For you the FL did exactly what its suppossed to, introduce you to the brand and then hope you stay loyal and move up to the other models. The big problem is that, you are one of the few who it worked on, and the others have had so many reliablity issues that they would never come back. My whole point way back is that the truck is a compromise. Land Rover is not a compromise, it does one thing and does it well. Land Rover is very similar to Porsche. They are both brands that play to the extreme of their relative markets. Porsche, for a while was no compromise onroad/track performance, where as LR was no compromise offroad ability. Its not anymore. FL is to LR what caynenne is to porsche. Its a departure from the core of what made that brand what it is. when i said its an abortion, i meant from LRNAs perspective. this thing was supposed to "save the brand" and "put a LR in every mans driveway". it has not done that, nor will it ever. I never said was it was a piece of shit, but a true LR it is not. "Didn't you just describe EVERY soft-roader ? Of course the FL is a compromise - othewise LR would have released a car that would have competed directly with the D90, which they didn't want it to do." the point is that LR should not be a soft-roader!! there are 35 other soft-suvs out there, buy one of those, dont degrade the image of LR with a vehicle that carries the badge but cant live up to it. Just because I work with LRs doesnt mean Im going to come on this board and proclaim "they are amazing off-road and will follow, even pass a disco or a D90" gimme a break, soft sand or no soft sand. The truck has obvious mechanical limitations, those which liken it to a CR-V or Rav4, not a D90. WOW!! your FL feels better on road than your Z3, yee haww man.. thats irrelevant. Even if thats true, you just made the point of this thread. A LR is not meant to handle better than a BMW convertible. Its meant to go places no other vehcile can take you. The fact that it sells so well in Europe is also completely irrelavant to this thread. Comparing the Euro/NA markets are apples to oranges. Im very glad that Bill loves his truck, and sincerely I wish more people were like him and the rest of the guys on FLliving or whatever board. Its everything that he wants it to be and thats great. The reason that sales are slow is that there arent many people out there like Bill. When people think "on-road" handling, they dont think of the green oval. Much like when people think SUV they dont envision the Porsche crest, but yet we have that as well. Im one person in one store that doesnt like the freelander, i speak for no one else associated with LR, and probably not even for the rest of the people in my store. When i was selling them directly, i never had success at selling the FL (but then again, neither has anyone else, obviously or we wouldnt be having this discussion ) In this class very few people care about "ability" off pavement, especially in CT which is just about the worst state to live if you have 4x4 in your blood. The problem is that it doesnt do the on-road thing well enough to sway them into a FL, even though it out handles audis and bmws . I havent even mentioned things like being over-priced, cheap fit and finish, spotty reliability, and absolute 0 LR capitol finance support as other reasons why it doesnt sell. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 395 Registered: 02-2002 |
Andrew.. no one is calling the range rover frightening because it does what its supposed to do. It has a low range, it has a torsen diff, it can wheel.. period. and wheel very well at that. It also does the on-road thing better than any other LR.. period. So is it compromise then?? no, the RR is not because it actually does both things very very well, but for $75,000 it damn well better. Is it a BMW?? yes it is, from stern to bow, buts its a bmw that in this case works as a LR to an extent. Would i want to take it more than 50 miles from civilization?? no way.. not with all the computers and wizardry going on in there. I love the vehicle and try to drive one every weekend if i can, but there are alot of folk out there who feel the new range is just a further indication of LRs product evolution going toward on-road instead off-road. the real reason nobody is talking about the RR is because this thread is about Freelanders, a far cry from Range Rovers. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2004 |
"the point is that LR should not be a soft-roader!! there are 35 other soft-suvs out there, buy one of those, dont degrade the image of LR with a vehicle that carries the badge but cant live up to it." To LR's defence, there were NO really outstanding soft-roaders available when LR released the FL. Sure the FL may not be the most outstanding soft-roader available, but it did do one thing well. It lifted the bar, creating a new level of measure which it just so happened other manufacturers found easy to replicate. "this thing was supposed to "save the brand" and "put a LR in every mans driveway". I really doubt that statement unless you know something I don't... and do you really think LR had that little faith in the Disco and RR to hang all hopes on the FL ? It is obvious from the passion on this site that the Disco is far from dead. "The fact that it sells so well in Europe is also completely irrelavant to this thread. Comparing the Euro/NA markets are apples to oranges." Actually, considering that the UK/Europe market is similar size to Nth America, I think they should be compared. They get all the vehicles NA gets, and they have similar climate. Maybe the Disco and RR does not sell as well there because of fuel/running costs and the small roads/parking, and therefore the FL takes up some of the slack. "FL is to LR what caynenne is to porsche. Its a departure from the core of what made that brand what it is." Very true, and by doing this, both manufacturers have gained some market share (even if a little) from a market they had nothing in previously. However, LR will most likely always build it's hard core 4wdrives, and Porsche will always build it's hard core high performance track cars. "the real reason nobody is talking about the RR is because this thread is about Freelanders, a far cry from Range Rovers." Of course it is... but I was just drawing a parallel illustrating the lack of coherence in the criticism. "maybe your sales guide was another lying salesman who wanted a commision to pay his rent," Lying salesman or not, by the sound of your attitude towards FLs, if he can sell them maybe you should employ him to lift your dealerships sales ??? If FLs are as bad in Nth America as you think, he must be a good salesman ! "cheap fit and finish, spotty reliability" For the record I have never had any major problem with either of my FLs, and it has not rattled apart on a corrugated road like my Sister's CRV. It really feels like people have been clutching at straws trying to find ammunition to shoot the FL down with. Really, come on... We are all LR owners, if not a little different from one another. And that is why LR will continue to sell Discos as well as FLs. If anything I agree that LR Nth America and definitely in Oz has low motivation towards the FL. Our exchange rate to the UK pound has not helped matters either. However, if you are looking for a loyal FL owner, then you have found one ! And that is because I have lived with them and can see that a little bit of LR character is always going to be more than a Japanese soft-roader will ever have. I have had people off the street remark on how good my FL looks... it catches people's attention (both on and off the beach), and I have never lost it in a carpark. The FL will never be the most popular soft-roader, but hey, I like it that way. All I hope now is that Ben has not lost all faith in both selling the FL and support from LRNA towards the FL. If you really firmly believe that 'Land Rover' should not be on the bonnet of the FL, then you have lost what really is the essence of LR - giving EVERYONE the freedom they want, in what ever way they want. Hell, I was not a LR customer prior to the FL - say no more. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 34 Registered: 01-2004 |
Andrew, "Actually, I think all its idiosyncrasies give it more personality than any CRV Rav or Forester will ever have." Agreed, this is a good point... and really, who are we to disrespect our peers decisions regarding their personal preferences. As I posted above: "Am I happy with my purchase, yep." I respect that! It seems the controversy only begins when embellished claims are made with regard to the vehicles capabilities - especially offroad - and furthermore, these seem to come from individuals that really don't even use their trucks offroad, as I said the owners I have personally been on the trail with seem very realistic and well aware of their trucks strenghs and shortcomings. BT. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2003 |
""Why don't you gather up a stock, open diff. D1 and stock Freelander and let's see what happens? I'll dedicate two or three pages to the tests and shoot it with a couple of cameras."" Ok now I know I dont post here often but I own a 97 D1 and a 03 FL. Should any of you question the capabilities of the Freelander in Somewhat extreme conditions and I dont mean dirt roads I could post a few pics.Its all the driver no matter what you driving.My buddy made it through the left side in his D1 with no Diff Lock when all sorts of others were getting stuck so to say one vehicle is better than the other should not even be the topic but driver expertise or inexperience plays the largest role. Also its pretty funny how I made a few disco's and RR in the mud pit at MAR look pretty bad then as I made it through on the right side on my own acord with minor rear bumper damage but non the less made it through there no problem and to be honest that wasn't very hard compared to where I have been with mine. Should any of you be coming to the B-Day party in June here for the OVLR or have been here before I hope to see you there and come for a ride. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 669 Registered: 11-2002 |
MAR again.... this says it all... Every damn time its the MAR..lol I wonder if all those years ago that the people at Land Rover would have ever thought that the vehicles they were building and how they rank would hinge on some silly ass event in someones back yard... Its frightening... "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gil: "maybe your sales guide was another lying salesman who wanted a commision to pay his rent, and unfortunately alot of LR sales guides dont know shit about LRs..." Graham Herbert of Symes Land Rover, Pasadena, CA was my sales guide. Graham has a reputation amongst his peers of being exceptionally knowledgable on his product line. Symes is one of the oldest dealerships in the US. I doubt if he falls into the category of, "not knowing shit about LR's" I went shopping for a car with this in mind: I wanted a small, yet sturdy AWD vehicle that was not japanese (on general principles), and that had exceptional traction control. I wanted the ability to go off road for camping trips or the occassional moderate trail ride, but with no desire for rock crawling or mud bogging. I'm a believer that your daily driver shouldn't be used seriously off road anyway, otherwise you risk not getting to work on Monday because you busted something on Sunday. The Freelander fit the perscription to a tee. I happened to be on a business trip in CA, and a friend tipped me off on a deal. I met with Graham and paid cash for the car and drove it home to Maryland. On route, I fell in love with the way it handled and how it was a perfect balance of what I was looking for in a daily driver and occassional off road fun. Because it was such a good fit, much to my surprise, what started out as a search for just an "all purpose" car origionally for my wife, has turned into a hobby for me. And I guess I've taken exception to rude and unnecessary remarks about the car from the likes of typical knuckel draggers... "if it ain't my modified Disco, it ain't shit and it ain't worth carrying the Land Rover name" Kyle, get a frickin life pal. Like I said previously, I'd own Jeeps before, and would never do that to myself or my wife again (daily driver). So you see, whatever ability the Freelander has off-road is a bonus to someone like me. Graham did exactly what he should have done, match his customer up with what they needed, not what his ego told him was the "best 4x4xfar." If I had use for a highly modified Disco, I'd have the kind folks at Expedition Exchange build one for me... | ||
| Andy Nichols (Lrcb40) New Member Username: Lrcb40 Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2002 |
DNA - not prosthesis! An engine isn't DNA, neither is an alarm or a bloody bit of glass! DNA is the building blocks! Otherwise all Rovers are out. My Disco 1 has GM door locks! Don't you guys know, nearly everyone shares some parts. The fact is, it is a LR, it is built by them not some other plant (although I concede Ford has moved them to Liverpool recently). It represents just the same departure as the original RR did, from the Series 3! Just because the Freelander doesn't have a low box or permanent 4WD doesn't mean it isn't a real LR! Don't forget the recent Disco's don't have CDL, but no one's saying it isn't a LR! | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 930 Registered: 02-2003 |
Actually, the Freelander does have permanent 4WD. It also has a viscous coupling, which for all intents and purposes is the same as a CDL. On top of that, it has its electronic traction control system and hill decent control. - Axel | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3037 Registered: 02-2002 |
as the original RR did, from the Series 3 Actually, the original RR came out in 1970, when the late Series IIa was the working vehicle; the SIII came out in '72 for North America (late '71 in the UK). -L | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2003 |
To be honest the MAR was not all its cracked up to be.Its an ok gathering and social but as for trail running it was unorganized and pluged up in general.The social part of it was good with the people I met but to make a 12 hour drive there again I dont think will happen. Asside from that and back to your statement of taking a stock Disco and a stock Freelander and see who does better is a very sketchy comment and unless youv'e been on some trails with a Freelander I think you would loose money if you bet any.Having said that by no means do I think the Freelander is the bee all and end all for trail rigs.It is very capable and I have proven that on many occasion but to go out with a bunch of D90's or Heavily modified Disco's or RR's your right it would not keep up and if it did it would be destroyed by the end of the day for sure.The president of our club went down to MOAB last year and fromthe pictures he brought back its definatly not runnable in a Freelander.If I was to modify anything it will be my Disco and not my Freelander although the only mod to the Freelander is a set of 5 225/75/16 Dunlop R/T's wich are fantasic by the way.I run the Pirelli Scorpions 245/70/16 on the Disco and they are ok for driving around town in the snow and light trail use.(I bought it for my wife so it doesn't see to many trails) I would have to say that all in all if someone is willing to take there Freelander out on the trails with a bunch of modified Disco's that they should be treated as such and not looked down for being there but encouraged for it instead.The most important part of being out on the trails is your attitude and not your truck. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 670 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ax it aint the same as a locking center and you know this. Not having a low range is also a serious downfall. Now if they wanted to make something unique in that market they should have included both.... Also , what is the component that we just cant seem to get around breaking ? Its the CV joint. We have two to worry about. How many does Darby have ? Yeah , its a problem.... I am in for the stock for stock thing anytime. Since no one respects the stocker as stock I will have to attend and watch... Although , I think it should be tit for tat. I want to see the Darby getting flogged jsut as badly as the stocker disco. If things fly out of the darby and not the Disco then I think this argument should be over ...right ? I mean , what exactly ends this debate. Tell me what it is and I want to be part of that.... Is it five years from now when the little darbies start falling apart ? (The ones that got used at all) Keep in mind that people are still bringing crusty rusty old rovers back to life daily . You see that every happening with the Darby ? "Oh look , this one has good CVs" I dont think so... "Blow me" | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 554 Registered: 02-2002 |
Lots of talk - but who is going to bring their trucks out to resolve the ETC vs. CDL, coil-sprung open diff. debate once and for all? My own thinking on buying a Freelander: My wife wants an AWD, and she's signed off enthusiastically on a Freelander SE because she is familiar with the layout of my D1, and likes the fit and finish. This keeps the money "in the family" as far as I'm concerned. We've alternately had a Volvo V90, Civic EX and Olds Silhouette in the driveway in three years time, but I'm confident that we'll have a Freelander for considerably longer. I don't see the Freelander as a comprimise vehicle in any way. It merely fills a low-end void in Land Rover's line. Now, if you want to argue that Land Rover never should have pandered to filling this gap, that's another thing. From my slight experience with a 2002 SE at Moab, I'd say the ETC kept up with D90s, RRCs and Discoveries quite nicely. Only once, on a cross-axle highspot on Top of the World did the ETC fail to hook-up on the first attempt. Between two cameras, I've got about ten minutes of footage showing the entire range of Land Rover product traversing this obstacle, with various techniques applied to make it happen. After reviewing the footage, I'd almost say that the Freelander only took a bad line - most of the subsequent footage is the driver lining-up again to correct this. That the Freelander can compensate for its obvious lack of articulation through ETC is a technological advance in my mind, not a trade-off. Are there other issues with the Freelander - absolutely. Is it a perfect vehicle? No. Is any Land Rover perfect in design and execution? I think all this bickering over the merits of the Freelander against the rest of the range of Solihull product is ridiculous. So, let's get some trucks together and I'll provide ensuing footage to Discoweb for inclusion in their next video. e | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 35 Registered: 01-2004 |
Q: -"what exactly ends this debate." A: - The Freelander is it ! it can do anything/go anywhere its overpriced siblings can. LOL | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2002 |
Erik , if Darby got through and escape or a CRV could... "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think this is a really good example of what's wrong with this debate... "I want to see the Darby getting flogged jsut as badly as the stocker disco" Who the hell wants to take their vehicle out and "flog" it? Isn't the point of 4-wheeling to get safely to your destination without doing any damage to yourself or your vehicle? I've read other threads on DiscoWeb where some groups refer to this type of thinking as "metal thrashers." You build a rig up w/ modifications and take it out and see just how far you can bash it before something breaks. I suppose this sounds like good sport to some w/ a dedicated trail rig made from an old worn out ex-daily driver. But who really wants to do that to their newer daily driver? In fact, why do that at all, unless you have too? If we do end up putting some sort of "real-world" / "off-road" comparison together, I think it shouldn't be billed as a prize fight. It should be conducted as an experiment, to establish what are the strengths and limitations of each vehcile (perhaps even as a promotion, God knows LR hasn't spent the effort). I personally think that nothing less than an equal performance by the Freelander would shut up some people (and that's not going to happen), but then the point isn't to shut up narrow minds, its to fill open ones. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 36 Registered: 01-2004 |
Erik, That Freelander pic. in your user-profile says it all... LOL | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 672 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill , its going to get flogged. Thats why trucks are modified , to make it easier on the truck and on the terrain. But you wouldnt know this. You also wouldnt know the limit of your truck because you havnt had to really really push it to get through something. I call that flogging.. You may not WANT to do this but it happens and the other rovers survive it fairly well time and time again. The freelander flat out isnt going to do it. Its going to spit something out. Ofcourse , maybe the Disco will spit something out. Thats why you do comparisons. Dont start backing up now... How about this my truck is modified so I cant get in on the fun. BUT , I will bet you good money that I can drag your Darby through a trail that it cant drive through on its own... This is why posting stops on the BSB fom the people that have knowledge. Others simply dont want to listen to them so why waste the text.. I dont think a single Darby owner that has any mechanical knowlege at all has posted in this thread. In fact , that says something in itself because anyone with a good mechanical knowledge wouldnt buy one.... So where am I dragging you Bill ? My poor ole Disco now has 175 K on it but I think it can manage...... just for you..."Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 673 Registered: 11-2002 |
Or should we be trying to find escape and CRV owners willing to put a Darby to shame ? "Blow me" | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2004 |
OK, so how do we structure this comparison? we have available a nice course here in Michigan which could provide an ideal setting, we also have, in our local club, examples of both vehicles and maybe even a CRV. There are no rock obstacles that could inflict damage, rather a well laid out course providing challenges such as; articulation, manueverability, traction, approach and departure angles, breakover, etc... Should we have an inexperienced, unbiased driver, pilot both vehicles, how will we score them, any ideas ? | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2003 |
Why not an "experienced" and "unbiased" driver? Why factor in any "scoring"? Film the vehicles taking the obstacles back to back and let the viewer make their own judgements from what they see. Of course some narraration about the obstacle, what is trying to be determined and any issues that develop would help to round out the video. Oh yea, let's not forget to add steep hill decent and icy roads... | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2003 |
To compare it to a CRV or ESCAPE is ridiculous.If you had any mechanical knowledge and have been under all three vehicles you would see the obvious differences. To say its ass good as the rest of the line isn't right either but it can hold its own for sure.I have been dragged by a RR with a 3 inch lift lockers etc. but at least I was willing to go with them.If any of you know VTXS and Peter just ask him what he thinks of my Freelander.Your Disco is definatly nice and done up for sure and hope to have mine with similar mods in the future but my trail partener whom I am out with all the time had the same views as you when he first met me on the trails and know we go out all the time together.Yes I get stuck but so does he and he has 2" lift ARB lockers etc.Its all about being out on the trails guys not what you break for driving like an idiot.  | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 674 Registered: 11-2002 |
See , here we go... NO , not a "Course" , a freaking trail.. You know , the real thing.... "Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 675 Registered: 11-2002 |
Are you stuck in that pic Gord ? Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2003 |
hehe come on now. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2003 |
 This is from last year's B-Day party at Silver Lake. www.ovlr.ca | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 38 Registered: 01-2004 |
By "Course" I intended to describe a privately owned piece of land which has been excavated, and could simulate 'some' of the conditions encountered on the "real thing". I'm not refering to some damn paved track with the objective of feeding someones fantasy of adventure. Agreed, its no Dusy or Rubicon. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2003 |
"I will bet you good money that I can drag your Darby through a trail that it cant drive through on its own..." What a knuckel dragger... Do you actually go through the rest of your life with the same macho BS chip on your shoulder? Someone who bought their vehcile for mild recreational and foul weather daily driver dares to stand up to your ridicule and the best you can do is, "offer to drag my car over stuff it can't go through on its own." What, you sleep with pigs too? You may be a moderator, you may even be the friggin owner of DiscoWeb for all I know, no one has completely explained that to me yet. But you're nothing better than an overgrown juvenile with an inflated ego - trying to make up for something "lacking elsewhere in your life" by using your skills to build a truck up and then turing around and bashing the hell out of it. Freud would have a field day with you... Who are you trying to prove something too? You don't impress or intimidate me a bit, in fact there is nothing about what I've seen of you that brings any credit on the name Land Rover at all. Just because you have the name LAND ROVER printed on the front of your truck, don't mean you know anything at all about the principles of character that have been associated with that name for over 50 years. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 677 Registered: 11-2002 |
I like Chris's idea of Paragon... Its a park , but a better chance of getting whats out there.. And Gord , both those pics are sitting on a road man. I cant believe you got stuck tehre like that. is that rangie pulling you out ? "Blow me" | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2003 |
No but I am in these two :-)))   | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not stuck in the Rangie pic dude just waiting for what was ahead of us to cross.The rangie got hung up on a stump and we all worked together to get it out via chainsaw and hi lift :-)).That day there was the best outing I have had with the guy's and great attitude by all of us,It was a blast. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2003 |
This was him on the stump and then cutting it out for not to break anything trying to drive off of it which it may well have done but he was on it pretty good.Very soupy little hole we came to here.Worse than it looked but not major bad.   | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) New Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 40 Registered: 01-2004 |
Kyle, Paragon would in fact provide an even better setting. And would allow a progression of dificulty levels... Do I have to go and find a Freelander for rent ? | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3040 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill, a) Yes, Kyle is one of the three owner/moderators of D-web (Axel and Ho being the other two). b) If you go back through Kyle's posts and really read them, you'll find that he absolutely bashes people who bash their trucks. It's about skill, not brute force. If someone gets a new Disco, throws a 5" lift and 35" mud tires then goes out and trashes it on the first trail, he'll be the first in line to call the guy an idiot. FWIW.... -L | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh and just for kicks here is a Unimog stuck in the same place so it wasn't a clearance issue well maybee a bit see I was dumb and let off the throttle and he couldn't get enough wheel spin and speed to get through so had I have kept on the gas and gotten over that hump onto the dryer gound I would have gotten through but thats just hear say now right.Still fun and the Rangie dragged me the rest of the way.  | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2003 |
Leslie: So offering to "drag" my Freelander was all about skill, not brute force..? Anyway, after seeing this video, I got to thinking maybe watching Kyle pull me might not be such a bad idea... (just kidding) http://cherokee.groundclearance.com/video/TheBigStuck.mpg | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2004 |
OK: I'll bite. I have two stock Discos to offer up for comparison. A '99 DI with CDL or an '03 DII with all the electric crap. The DI does have MTs and no front air dam. Otherwise both are bone stock. All I need is a Freelander for comparison. It just needs to be close to Central CA. You design a course or pick a trail that showcases your trucks ability and then I get to do the same. I'm only getting invloved because I get tired of hearing the "my Freelander can go any where your disco(or whatever)can go" My challenge is: you can't, but I can go anywhere you can go. A good driver in a FL can conquer more difficult terrain than a bad driver in a great trail rig. Take the driver element out and it just comes down to simple vehicle engineering. You can pick a great offroad truck on specs alone. What is the basic geometry? ie. breakover angle, aproach/departure angle, max clearance. What is the gearing like? (the lower the better) Suspension travel? Tire size? etc...etc... In all of these areas the Freelander loses out to serious off-roaders big time. I don't hate Freelanders, I just hate hearing people tell me I would be amazed where they can go. I was amazed how far I could take my '84 tercel into the boonies when I was a kid but that doesn't mean it was a great trail rig. It was just a car with a dumb kid behind the wheel. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3041 Registered: 02-2002 |
No, Bill, that's not the point. I was referring to your statement "But you're nothing better than an overgrown juvenile with an inflated ego - trying to make up for something "lacking elsewhere in your life" by using your skills to build a truck up and then turing around and bashing the hell out of it." Not putting words into Kyle's mouth, but that's precisely what my view of Kyle's rants are against. Pulling your FL through the course that it can't run is a tribute to both the Disco's capability AND the skill of the driver. -L | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 555 Registered: 02-2002 |
Matt, You had to be in California didn't you? I've got someone offline who wants to talk seriously about using his slider-equipped Freelander for the comparison. Oh, the 99 D1 would be perfect - the theorhetical pinnacle of Land Rover's NAS engineering. Naturally, we're not considering testing against a stocker 97 D90, cause I have one of those at my disposal. Give me some time here... e | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3042 Registered: 02-2002 |
Matt, Since Kyle and Bill are both in MD, the Mid-Atlantic area, I think that, for this particular contest, some place on the east coast would be in order. Hence the attraction to Paragon. (Although I think Tellico would be good, myself.) -L | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1329 Registered: 09-2002 |
Andrew, that explains your position better than anything else. Have you tried Land Rover coffee yet? | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2004 |
"You design a course or pick a trail that showcases your trucks ability and then I get to do the same." I'm lovin that... how far can an unmodified Discovery follow a Freelander at Paragon Park, then the two switch roles. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok here's a good example for you guys.Kevin made it through this with his cdl not working so esentially in 2wd and I also made it through but had to use all of the trucks capabilities to get through it ie: TC and maybee a bit of experience helped out to so I do agree with the differences in the two trucks but where the Disco would really out perform the Freelander would be on the Rock Crwal's.In mud and most other situations it will do just fine to get through.Unless of course your going on an expedition which most will never do with either then its really obvious the answers to what you all are arguing about.I take my Freelander into places most will never see and manage to do just fine but thats me and the terrain I drive on is much different say if I lived in Nevada or California where there's lots of rocks etc.So to say a Freelanders crap is just wrong and to say it will do anywhere a Disco will is wrong as well but on a regular trail run with any club like ours or yours im sure that it would perform fine.Take for instance our unability to go into deep water so right there were already loosing but who's to say its the only option and ussually stay to the high side will work to get you through.So what if you didn't go through the middle of the crossing you still made it accross even if going straight through would have been more fun :-)) having to fix or replace a computer would not be.This is a argument that could go on forever and ever and dont know why you all are bothering with it.Oh and whats the clearence under a stock D1's Diff 8" I think if my memmorie is correct and what do we have in our FL's 7.3 in the front and 8.4 in the rear so add 1 inch to that with my 225/75 tires and Im right there as far as clearence goes.Lack of power the Disco's wins that battle hands down for sure.Breakover angle on a FL is 22 Deg. which is pretty good compared to its competition. So to say it can go ANYWHERE a Disco can is wrong but it will be close in many area's.I own a Disco and there are places I know it could go or I would take it where I wouldn't take the FL but the FL sure is fun on the trails when pushed to certain limits.   | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2003 |
Leslie, All due respect, but "Pulling your FL through the course that it can't run is a tribute to..." Nothing but stupidity. | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2004 |
Fine, no rocks, you pick whatever you want for your course or trail. The only place a FL can go that I can't is under something too low for my Disco. How about one point for each obstacle you can't clear on each course. The winner has the fewest number of points. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok I thought I heard someone say Slider Equiped.Here's what I have done to mine so far. Slider's made from 3/16 HSS 3.5" wide on the bottom. Skid plate addition thanks to Ron's Drawing. And rear Diff guard from 1/4" Checker Plate.     And this one is just for a laph  | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just for the record there Matt im not the one arguing with you.I could really care less and its of no interest to me to see who might do better anyway's.I do a lot of trail running and recovery excusions so I really am not the one that has anything to prove to anyone.Also being out with a group on a trail run has nothing to do with who goes further,Steeper or deeper or over this or that.I realise neither one of us started this thread so dont direct you comments at me please. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh I bet I know who that person is Erik :-)))) | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 20 Registered: 01-2004 |
I'm not directing my comments at anyone in particular. I'm just offering a possible solution to the debate. Instead of talking about what they can do and where each truck is better lets go find out. As I said in my first post. I don't hate Freelanders. I don't really care about them one way or another. I'm just tired of people telling ME that I will be amazed at what FLs can do. Amaze me. With something other than pictures. I can't tell if a FL at the end of a gnarly mud hole hit it at 100mph. and skipped through it like a stone or if it is simply a great mudder. Let's go get muddy/dusty/rocky/whatever and find out. | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good point Matt I did have a bit of speed but not to much because of the nasty terrain leading upto that crossing but you point makes perfect sense.Im in Canada so as much as I'd love to come on a trail ride there its probably not going to happen anytime soon.:-))) | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.calamarco.com/hippo/FullBday1.WMV Here's a little Video from last year's B-Day party should any of you want to check it out. FL's inthe middle somewere.Oh and Im not the one filming it either and this is the unedited version.46Megs | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2003 |
LOG: Came close to getting the Freelander stuck on saturday (this is my goal). She got out on her own free will. I WILL ONE DAY STICK THIS THING. $10 every two days to wash my hippo is getting to expensive, thinking about investing in a pressure washer. Wife keeps bitchin about the loud exhaust and the sweet hum of the tires. Came to the realization that we will have to take her honda on long trips. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2003 |
Greg, I hate that you had to go out of your way to pitty me. The CR-V is a competitor but it does not do the things my FL does. The ride is bumpy and it is noisy, etc. It is not a luxury sport SUV. My dealership has had a D90 and I have been chest deep in water, in a foot of mud, and climbed a 40 degree angle hill with power to spare, I can't get one and they are bumpy. Whatever. Our owner has an E55, my finance manager has a G wagon, I drove an S55 to a customer 3 hours away, and do envy the c230. I can't afford any of those cars. Correction, I could afford some of them, but they are out of my comfort range and when someone asks me what do I drive I simply say land Rover. I also think my freelander has been places Kyle thinks I can't go because I have the balls to try it and if I get stuck, so what, I'll get someone to pull me out. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill , "All due respect, but "Pulling your FL through the course that it can't run is a tribute to..." Nothing but stupidity." Well , think about that... Is it really ? I have had to do it before. Could you drag one of your crippled bretheren out of the woods ? Its a good test actually.... "Blow me" | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2004 |
Could also go to Rausch Creek instead of Paragon. Sounds like a fun time either way. I hope that this actually happens though I'm pretty sure it won't. I'd like to go if it does so post the decided show down date please. Will this be the Pepsi challenge part two? | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 556 Registered: 02-2002 |
Gord, Don't blame me for this stupid debate, I came into this thread about a third of the way in! e | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 557 Registered: 02-2002 |
Kyle has a point on the dragging your friend's truck - uh, point. I once had to pull a D1 with busted CDL up a long and precarious hill to get it out. No winch would reach him at the bottom without having to respool several times, so we choked a few recovery straps together and got it done that way. That was some white knuckle ***t there, but we got him out and no one was bleeding at the end of it. e | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3045 Registered: 02-2002 |
Krispy Kreme Challenge. Hope it's better documented. -L | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 404 Registered: 07-2002 |
You know what.. this is getting too fucking silly for me... No F*ing judges, no F*ing scoring, no F*ing competition, no F*ing anything thats going to promote a rival on the trail because once that element is part of it where A is judged against B, thats when damage and stupid shit happens. For me its not about side by side comparisions. I know already what stock Discos can do. I've guided enough stockers around Paragon that I have a good average idea of what average owners are comfortable doing and secondly, what they, in their stock trucks, can handle with well placed spotting, a tick here and there, and even moving a few rocks to get them through with the least amount of chance of damage. I would love the chance to do the same with the Freelander owners. What I submit is an absolutely CLOSED, weekend long, event limited to really only a couple Freelander 1 stock, 1 slightly (hopefully even maybe one of the lifted ones too) with owners that have decent trail time in the drivers seat of their Freelander and are very comfortable with how their truck handles in situations, a couple good spotters to help keep their eyes on whats going on all around the trucks that can accurately note what is going on and issue alerts to the main spotter, some good recovery trucks/people, and Erik and Ax if they wish to document it for feedback or write ups or whatever. Possibly only one stock or slightly modified Disco only for basic comparision as to how the differant technologies handle the same situation but personally, I dont think this is needed. The abilities of the Discos are already well documents all over the place but if it is wanted to do live comparison for the benifit of those not so familar with it, then fine. I recommend a closed weekend event for a couple of reasons: - Control of whats going on in front of us and not a bunch of hooting & hollering if something goes wrong or someone saying "Haha.. I told you it would not do that line". It doesnt help anything and only pisses others off. - Safety and Time considerations.. I am talking about getting a real honest look into how a Freelanders ability handles whats its going over. This would involve stopping at each trail head and walking the trail to see if the owner and spotters feel that it can be run safetly. Mind you these are not hard core trails or trails that are know for damage, but that could be a good techincal and challanging run. This takes time not only to run but to walk and evaluate. If we have gangs of people with their trucks, we will never get through this and accomplish nothing. - I say a weekend long, first off, because of basicly the same reasons as above of the amount of time even a small group is going to use up. Rather than just jump on some harder trails to begin with I think it would be a good idea for most people involved to warm up from something easier, and work our way up to another level. Not only will this warm up the drivers but the spotters as well and get everyone in tune with what to pay special attention to. If this sounds like your cup of tea, shoot me an email and lets see about getting something planned once it warms up a tad in the mountains. Chris von C. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 558 Registered: 02-2002 |
Exactly. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is not about what a Discovery can do, we all know that a Land Rover with low range capabilities are one of the most offroad capable vehicles. I think that I'm defending what a well designed AWD vehicle can do. My intro into LR was freelander and my next vehicle will be a Disco. As for problems, no matter what you drive, someones going to have a problem and that one person is who you are going to hear from, not the 100 people that are not having problems. I have 100% customer satisfaction with the Freelander. Most have more of a vehicle than they thought they were getting. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 42 Registered: 01-2004 |
"My intro into LR was freelander and my next vehicle will be a Disco." From a LR perspective, I would say... mission accomplished ! | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 679 Registered: 11-2002 |
Chris , its not really that hard . take some of these boys up that are talking the smack and run em through. What the hell is s "Guide" in a park ? Tour guide? YOua re correct about the judging and allt hat other bullshit. Its not needed.. The real truth of this matter will be apinfully obvious. If they dont want to do it that will make it obvious as well...Just get some trucks together and run them through... No "HAHA!" , oh I dont think so , plenty of ha ha after all of this crap I have endured over these little bunny trail runners... I would also like to hear some crunching and see some parts getting spit out of the front or rear.. Only then do you say , oops , probably shouldnt have done that in a Darby......"Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think Chris and Erik have the right idea... Let's document just what the abilities of a Freelander are under a carefully controled enviroment where no one gets their vehciles wrecked, but the vehcile is pushed to its reasonable limits and then everyone can get a good look at the vehcile on video doing whatever it can do, good or bad. As for Kyle's comment: "I would also like to hear some crunching and see some parts getting spit out of the front or rear.. Only then do you say , oops , probably shouldnt have done that in a Darby......" That says more than I ever could about the quality of your character... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 680 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah , it says I want YOU to put your money where your mouth is.... Go in the trail and get out the other side... Thats what Land Rover is about. Getting you there. If yours cant get you there in one piece then that tells the tale.. The quality of my character says jus that. I am sick and tired of people running thier mouths about things they dont know. And when they are called to task they want a "Controlled" no risk enviroment... Well put up or shut up... What does that say to you ? If its not done that way all we will ever hear is "Woulda , coulda ,shoulda". "Blow me" | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 405 Registered: 07-2002 |
Kyle I agree on some level that it should not be hard. The part that does makes this difficult is the absence of Freelander owners here in the Philadelphia area that actually wheel (freelanders) enough to be comforatble doing it (let me say, that I know of). Around me, I would say from hanging out on the FreelanderLiving site, that the closest concentration of Freelander wheelers is around Washington DC or out in Ohio area so that adds consideration of travel time for these people just to get to the park not to mention accomidations (which BTW I will help get details for anyone participating if needed). As for guiding, we dont hire a guide, I mean that I know the park fairly well and can quickly identify trails that would be ideal to start on and depending how each trail is handle can make a fair recomendaion as to which one to hit next, get there quickly and look it over and make the call if its one that the driver and spotters fell can be done safetly, maximizing the time available for actually running the trail. As for crunching and parts spitting out, I hope not. I really hope that it would be a clean damage free learning run but there is no guarentees that a tire wont slip off a rock and something wont take a shot and thats something I would hope walking the trail before hand will minimize. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 681 Registered: 11-2002 |
You arent getting me. We got a few people right here talking smack.Thats enough. Everyone go's in with a copilot who spots for them and thats that. If it gets crunched then they should have stayed home....End of story. The more accomodating you are then the more tainted your results are.. YOu cant hold everyones hand and then say it was an accurate comparison. If you start stacking rocks and building roads during a comparison then you cant really say it was an honest one. Pick some trails , run em and see what happens. Just that simple. Bill here is up for it I am sure.... "Blow me" | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 604 Registered: 02-2002 |
cmon guys, the freelander is the best4x4xfar. don't hurt feelings like that. Ho Chung | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 53 Registered: 01-2004 |
Damn, sounds to me like Kyle wants to see a Freelander run Voodoo. Hell, I'd like to see a Disco do it for that matter. Anyway, if you allow Disco's on your outing let me know. I'll try to go and I'm not going to talk shit about anyones choice of vehicle. I'm more of a "If you brought it, run it" type person. I just want to have some fun and see some more of what a Freelander can do on more difficult trails than I have seen them on so far. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 559 Registered: 02-2002 |
Oh ***t, now the West Coast is involved... e | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 605 Registered: 02-2002 |
 Ho Chung | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 682 Registered: 11-2002 |
Didnt like that post bill ? lol Why delete ? "Blow me" | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jusy come to the B-Day part in june and we can compare all day long if you like.I hope that some of you come to it anyway's and am sure some already have in the past. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2003 |
 Kyle, you and yours will eventually go the way of the dinasaur. This is your play ground and you obviously like it that way. According to you and some like minded folks, Freelanders are an "abortion" and "can't cash the check written by the name on their hoods." I've never compared a Freelander to a Disco, modified or otherwise for off-road ability. I simply expressed some pride in a car that happens to share the same name as yours. My mistake for not knowing WHERE I was talking at, not what I was saying! Chris, Erik - you've both got my contact info. If you want to do a serious, but "safe and sane" educational analysis of the real capabilities of the Freelander anywhere in the Mid-Atlantic area, I'll be there as my work schedule permits. But as previously stated, I bought mine to enjoy on moderate trails and as a daily driver - I intend for it to continue doing just that. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 683 Registered: 11-2002 |
That was a switch from what you posted a minute ago wasnt it Bill ? "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2003 |
Decided to add some "color" and couldn't figure out how to on an "edit"... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 684 Registered: 11-2002 |
And its only as safe and sane as your ability makes it.... No faith in your own ability or your vehicles ? "Blow me" | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am unsafe and insane, and I have leased mine, what do I care. If I put a $1000 worth of damages, I make sure I had $1000 worth of fun. I will attempt anything that you point out. I don't know if anyone lives in the south central U.S. but i'm more than happy to volunteer my vehicle. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 406 Registered: 07-2002 |
LOL.. Oh I got you, these people just don’t live around here so its not quite so easy to just pick up and go do it, this includes my own schedule. As for accurate comparison, we all have stacked or pushed rocks here and there to get over something so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And not everyone's co-pilot has been the ideal spotter for certain situations. How many times have you been the lead spotter on outings? Quite a number that I personally can vouche for and I was thankful that you were. To be truly fair would it not seem best for us to behave and help on a trail for a Freelander trying to get through, the same as we would for a Disco trying to get through? | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here's a stock Disco doing the RTV course.Driver is everything. http://www.calamarco.com/hippo/FullBday4.WMV | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 685 Registered: 11-2002 |
The one thats been yapping the most is right here close by. I am sure he can "Rally" some of his Darby friends to join in as well. Yes we have all done what was needed to get through. Doing that says less about the trucks ability and more about the people getting it through. At the same time it taints your results. So quite simply. No stacking and one spotter per vehicle. Now , if you want to coddle the people that are here telling US how it is , then it kinda doesnt make any sense does it ? I mean Hell , they are telling us so they should be able to show us , right ? How can they be telling us how it is and then require our help to ge them through ? Make any sense ? This is why I am telling Bill to put his money where his mouth is... He has been the loudest in this thread... "Blow me" | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2003 |
Correction!! Tires are everything!!! | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 |
Wow, some ego's are flying since I last posted !!! Seems like the only aim people now have posting on this thread is to step on each other's toes (or drive over them maybe !?). As Ben said, This Thread is not about how good a Disco is or how good a modified Disco could be against a FL... And earlier Gil was talking about Apples and Oranges... which really we are still talking about in a way. That being said, a RR would be a Mango and a D90 Macadamia Nut (or something along those lines). A FL will never be a Disco and a Disco will never be a FL. So if you want to go out there and waste a whole weekend comparing trucks, I can save you a whole lot of time... A modified Disco will eat a standard FL (and possibly also drag it somewhere if you so desire - but then you could also drag a CRV or Escape too, so that is really irrelevant). A standard Disco will do as well if not a little better than a standard FL. A Modified (lifted) FL will do the same if not a little better than a standard Disco. Of course I am generalising, as it really will come down to the specific elements. I have driven around modified Discos in the sand, and I doubt even a modified Disco would have been able to get up the hill I mention below. How do I come to these conclusions ?... I have enough off-road and on-road knowledge of enough different 4wd's to know really what one can and cannot do without finding their extreme limits personally. Oh, and that is why I will also have to add that it will very much come down to a driver's experience to get the best out of any 4wd. "Erik , if Darby got through and escape or a CRV could..." So Kyle... you have driven these vehicles off road too ? I would doubt your claim very much, because I have driven a CRV... actually, these are all the 'small' 4wd vehicles I have owned/driven in varing off road elements.. 1986 Toyota Tercel (low range) 1988 Subaru Leone (low range) 1989 Toyota Corolla SR5 (actually has a CDL !) 1991 Subaru Liberty (low range) 1989 Suzuki Sierra LWB (low range) 1993 Suzuki Vitara (you call Shogun) SWB (low range) 1994 Asia Rocsta 2.2 diesel (low range) 1998 Dihatsu Terios 1998 Honda CRV 1998 FL diesel 1998 FL petrol 1.8 2000 Subaru Forester GT 2001 RAV-4 2002 FL V6 2003 Mitsubishi Outlander So of course I am NO authority on soft-roaders abilities. And I could go on listing the large 4wd's I have also driven off road ? "I dont think a single Darby owner that has any mechanical knowlege at all has posted in this thread. In fact , that says something in itself because anyone with a good mechanical knowledge wouldnt buy one...." Again speaking without knowing all the facts Kyle... you really are one to jump to conclusions. Like I said previously in this thread, I don't need or want a large 4wd, and after driving all the small ones the FL was and still is the best in my view (mechanically and otherwise). Oh, and since you know the mechanics of the FL so well, you must have worked on one ? No... really ??? Well, then I feel you should take a back seat in this discussion. As great as your Disco might be, I can just see you now with your 'mud digger' tyres and getting bogged up to your axles in soft sand and I being the one to snatch you out. But now I hear you say that your truck is not modified for sand running ? And that is my point exactly... The Disco and FL (modified or not) are two different vehicles built for two different purposes. "Andrew, that explains your position better than anything else. Have you tried Land Rover coffee yet?" Didn't know they make coffee ? But will remember that next time I am about to go out for a Flat White Didn't you know that is why the FL has drink holders ??????? Thought it was elementry. "Correction!! Tires are everything!!!" I agree ! I once tried to get up a REALLY steep track (approx 50deg - even hard to walk up)... I made it further than a Hilux with Low range and Dirt tyres, but ended up stopping with the road tyres of mine scratching away at the dirt (TSC working) just not getting traction. Only my friends heavily modified Patrol with lift and BIG tyres made it up, wheel spinning the whole way ! And another situation "only a heavily modified Nissan Patrol was able to do what I did." - Once my photo gallery pics are posted you will be able to see my FL in action in the dirt here. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2004 |
A sneak preview... and yes, my rear left wheel is over 2 feet off the ground - where ETC reigns.  And the Patrol...  | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 170 Registered: 03-2003 |
WTF? Did the bug take a shortcut? | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2004 |
No... the bug has a 200bhp Mazda v6 hanging off the back, and not much weight. He just gunned it ! | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 686 Registered: 11-2002 |
Um , yeah..... I can see that the terrain there is much more difficult then here.... "Blow me" | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 171 Registered: 03-2003 |
Well damn, I guess I need to drop the rover for a bug. Then I'll be able to make it through the Rubicon for sure. Oh but I have ghetto rear ETC, I surely must be able to make it in the rover. Or do I need 4 wheel ETC like you? Let me know cause I need to start lookin for a bug. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1337 Registered: 09-2002 |
Andrew... You CANNOT walk up a 50-degree slope, even if it is pure dry sandpaper. However, one can drive a decent 4x4 up a 50-degree slope (I can only think of decomposed granite), but I bet you've never seen one. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 688 Registered: 11-2002 |
Funny how this thread died so fast when it actually came down to doing something..... Imagine that.."Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Andrew... You CANNOT walk up a 50-degree slope, even if it is pure dry sandpaper. However, one can drive a decent 4x4 up a 50-degree slope" Actually, I have climbed up a 80deg slope - well cliff face to be exact (no safetly rope). No, I have not seen de-composed granite, but this hill climb was only just wider than the vehicles, very loose dry dirt, with trees you had to avoid while trying to keep momentum and traction. I guarantee I would have made it up with 'dirt' tyres and less psi. The catch was you only had approx 20feet at the bottom to floor it - not a 100foot run-up. In these two pics he was 2nd low doing about 30km/h   I made it to just above where is bull bar can be seen in the 1st pic. The whole climb was only about 60feet. You can see how loose the dirt was - so low range 1st crawling like rock climbing would have gotten you about 10feet. "Um , yeah..... I can see that the terrain there is much more difficult then here...." Actually Kyle, it does not look much, but it took the Patrol 3 attempts (this is a 3.0lt Turbo diesel 354Nm at 1800rpm, lifted 3inches, with oversized mud digger tyres, oh, and experienced driver), and took me two attempts (standard FL, no lift, road tyres). The ground was very loose, not like solid rock that the Rubicon is made of. Here is another pic of the wheel spin the Patrol suffered.  "Well damn, I guess I need to drop the rover for a bug. Then I'll be able to make it through the Rubicon for sure." The bug made it because all it's weight is on its rear wheels, so they never lost contact with the ground. And he was not trying to push 2tonne plus of vehicle. Of course a bug would not be any good on the Rubicon - but FYI these things are called Baja after the rally they were born in ! They are very suprising vehicles, and this guy has actually measured his 0-100km/h accelecation too - 6.2sec on gravel ! But we are not here to argue about the ability of a Nissan patrol or Baja compared to a Disco... my point was that I could go where the modified Nissan could. Regardless of being similar to your terrain or not, it still proves that a standard FL is capable. No, I don't do this kind of 4wdriving every day, but I have no desire to. Oh, and in Australia most Disco owners don't really give a damn if you drive a FL or not. They are just out to have fun like I am, and are not trying to prove that their vehicle is better than anyone elses. When I was out with the Nissan/Baja/HiLux, none of them expected me to get as far as I did, and all looked at the FL in a different light afterwards. They RESPECTED it. "Funny how this thread died so fast when it actually came down to doing something..... Imagine that.." Actually, it has seemed to die as soon as I (and other FL owners) could prove the FL's ability beyond what most Disco owners believed. I have never said that any FL is more capable than your Disco Kyle, but I have tried over and over to enlighten you, but you keep your eyes closed for some reason. So it's fine if you want to take your narrow minded opinion and continue to bag the FL. I notice however that you have never come back saying you have worked on a FL to know it's mechanics, or driven a CRV in extreme off-raod conditions. So it is now clear that you are ignorant towards the original question in this Thread. Why is FL sales poor - you don't have a clue ! All you know is that your modified Disco is better than a FL, which is rather elementry. So if you wish to push a Trial between FL's, or argue back at my valid points again, it really shows that you must be in-secure about the abilities of your Disco. You should be happy with your truck and continue to enjoy it. Oh, and if you do happen to come across a stranded FL on a trail, don't laugh at it, as you may need assistance one day when a FL comes along. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1338 Registered: 09-2002 |
climbing an 80-deg slope has nothing to do with walking or driving up a 50-deg slope, completely irrelevant. Also, I don't believe the slope in your photos is anywhere close to 50 degrees - dirt just won't stay put. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1339 Registered: 09-2002 |
here's an example of a ~50-deg hill for you. Not only you can't walk, you can't stand on it. A stock Discovery slides down this slope with all wheels locked, but drives up with very little drama. So might a Freelander, but you'd have to drive here first. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2004 |
That's the point... the dirt didn't want to stay put on the track - hence such little traction. But see all the trees around the track... that is what keeps the dirt there. And if you don't believe the angle, compare the length of the roof of your disco with the Patrols - the Patrols roof line is longer yet you can see less of it, even taking the different perspecive into account. It was 50deg... like I said, I didn't make it all the way up... so coming back down didn't even attempt HDC, or brakes... but rather used the 'Hand Brake' method (for auto boxes). And as soon as I got a little momentum (1-2km/h) backwards and wanted to slow down, all four wheels locked up and I slid probably 5feet before coming to a rest again. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2003 |
I give up. I'm trading my Freelander in on a Discovery tomorrow. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 938 Registered: 02-2003 |
That's because of the angle the picture was taken at. Try being right next to the hill, shooting across it like this, then you will show the steepness better. - Axel | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2004 |
Unfortunately I could not get a good shot from that angle because of all the trees in the way. I guess Peter will just have to believe me... and if he chooses not to, well that is his call. But of course he was not there. | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2004 |
Ben, to answer your original question. I think that most people in the market for a new sport-ute don't look at the Freelander for several reasons. First, most people in that market don't off-road, second, most people think that every Land Rover no matter what is a break down waiting to happen, third, it cost more then some of it's competitors and since they are going to stay on the street no one cares if it can do this or that off-road and for the price they can get a nicer and better deal from a different maker that they invision as having a better quality record. Lastly, most people that I know just think that it is an ugly truck. They hate the look of it which to them is more then enough to not bother with it. If I where shopping for a sport-ute I wouldn't get one either. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kyle, Are you proud that you have managed to alienate so many Freelander owners? Are you feeling real good about how YOU (and some of your closed minded friends) are the real cause that has lowered the expectation of what it means to own a Land Rover, not the Freelander? I'm pretty representative of the demographics of Land Rover new car buyers, at least on the FL and Disco line. After this, I'll be walking away saying, to myself and others, "that guy that runs D-Web hates Freelanders and thinks unmodified Discovery's are "pieces of shit". He goes out of his way to try and goat soft-road drivers into busting up your vehicles, and likes to make fun of it every chance he gets". It's pretty obvious that if you've choosen to purchase a Freelander, all you're going to get from the likes of you on this board is name calling and juvenile BS. I put up with it for a while because I was ignorant to your "position" of relavance on this site, and hoped that some "administrator" would eventully pull your plug. The reason things will continue to slow down, is that you've made it painfully obvious, dispite several honest attempts to talk rationally about the vehicle, you don't want us here, except to be subject for your ridiucule and fodder to feed your inflated ego... But then, what do you care with your attitude - "blow me" | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 43 Registered: 01-2004 |
"That's because of the angle the picture was taken at. Try being right next to the hill, shooting across it like this, then you will show the steepness better." Axel, Sweet tip... I've often battled with this issue on trails. BT. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 407 Registered: 07-2002 |
"Actually, it has seemed to die as soon as I (and other FL owners) could prove the FL's ability beyond what most Disco owners believed." What?!? Andrew, no offense, but what exactly have you posted that has PROVEN the FL abilities in this thread? Posting one picture of a FL with its ass up in the air on a grassy hill saying ETC reigns didnt convince me if that was the great contribution and lets remember, I am a fan of the FL here so if you didnt do it for me, you sure as hell didnt do it for those with the doubts. You had some good responces earlier to FL bashers but you have not really added anything that proved the abilities let alone "prove the FL's ability beyond what most Disco owners believed", so dont go patting yourself on the back just yet. And dont play games Andrew, the thread started dying off here when it was becoming more clear that no one was stepping up to participate in what I offered with the exception of Bill and someone else 3000 miles away. Also in an amazing coincedance of timing, it seemed to also be pretty close to the same time that I jumped out from here, and into the coresponding thread about this on FreelanderLiving and having more rational discusions about it there. Gord on the other hand is posting like a mad man with all kinds of great stuff showing the more advance abilities of the FL, and really so far, is the only one to be posting not only the good FL porno shots here that help back him up, but he has done a pretty good job at filling in the details. If anyone is proving anything, it's him. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2004 |
"you have not really added anything that proved the abilities let alone "prove the FL's ability beyond what most Disco owners believed" I beg to differ considering that most Disco owners posting on this thread were swearing black and blue that a FL could not compete against a modified 4wd such as a Disco. My pictures clearly show along with my explanation of the events that my FL is as capable. Some choose not to believe me and try to dis-credit me ? What purpose does that serve ? "And dont play games Andrew, the thread started dying off here when it was becoming more clear that no one was stepping up to participate in what I offered with the exception of Bill and someone else 3000 miles away. Also in an amazing coincedance of timing, it seemed to also be pretty close to the same time that I jumped out from here," Please, I am not trying to piss in my own pants, but it also seemed pretty co-incidental that certain Dweb members became quiet when they could not prove otherwise towards other soft roader's abilities compared to the FL. All they could do is compare their Discos. No soft roader I have driven (and even many larger 4wds) would have made it through the section where my ass is up... so if that is not saying something, I don't know what will. Oh, since I have already put my stock FL up against a large modified 4wd, I would be happy to do it again. In fact, I am heading to this place www.landcruisermountainpark.com.au in a few weeks with the same Patrol, so I will let everyone know how I go (with pics). "Gord on the other hand is posting like a mad man with all kinds of great stuff showing the more advance abilities of the FL, and really so far, is the only one to be posting not only the good FL porno shots here that help back him up," I agree that Gord has made some good points and posted some good shots. But with all due respect, showing pics of a FL stuck is not really doing it much credit. What I was trying to illustrate was simply that I got in and out of many extreme situations in my FL on road tyres without needing assistance. It is really sad when even another FL owner has to turn around and bag another FL owner who has actually been off-road in what I would consider an extreme situation. Maybe the Disco owners did look at my pics and say "what a piece of cake"... but you would think that any 4wheel drive owner would look at the pics and my explanation and actually say "Wow ! 50deg, loose dirt, narrow track - wish I could give it a go in my Disco". Actually, if there are any Disco owners on this site who live in Brisbane, I could probably arrange to visit the hill again, and then they can tell the same story (pics and all). | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 692 Registered: 11-2002 |
Andrew , his point was that the "Other"4x4" wasnt running something difficult at all. Thats like saying your freelander ran with one Bob Chandlers trucks ,,,,,,,,,,,,, down a freeway.. Admitedly , we werent there and dont know how easy or hard it was but typically on soft flat hill climbs where pedal is what gtes it done , the smaller lighter vehicle will reighn supreme. Bill , I dont care how you go away. I dont really care what you tell other freelander owners. If I hadnt made that painfully obvious already then I dont know what else to tell you. But try and get it right atleast , would you ? The point is that a Darby is going to get bashed to shit trying to follow a Disco to its limit. Stopping short of doing that really doesnt prove or end anything. Its just opens up the "WOulda, coulda , shoulda" debate afterwards. IF that says that I like watching people bash their trucks then again , I dont know what to tell ya. Perhaps this is something "You just wouldnt understand" THe really really fun part is that you come on the site here and start telling me what you and darby can do. The reality is that you have done nothing and dont even know your damn self....... "Blow me" | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 58 Registered: 01-2004 |
Chris, I sent you an email as well.. I'm in VA Bill, Kyle is one of the owners of this site which means that as long as he is paying the bills he can say and do whatever it is that he wants to. LRNA has nothing to do with anything around here. Not buying another Land Rover becuase one guy on his own BBS pisses you off doesn't really make sense. Not like he is the head of LRNA or anything. If the Paragon trip actually does happen, then great, I look forward to seeing what the Freelander can do. Since I have only seen them on Dirt roads so far. | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 21 Registered: 01-2004 |
Andrew, if you want to prove the capabilities of your FL, don't show it stuck on a little hill with a Baja Bug at the top. I think you are totally missing the point on how folks on this site judge the "capability" of a truck. Its not about making it up a hill or over an obstacle. Its about making it through a trail and turning around and coming back home. Then doing it again next weekend. And doing this again and again and again. Discos are designed to do this right out of the box. They are robust body-on-frame trucks. If you don't understand the design limitations of a unit-body off-road vehicle with sedan suspension, you just aren't going to understand our criticism of your FL. FL's are road-biased cars with some comprimises designed in for off-road ability. Discos (especially the modified ones) are off-road biased cars with mediocre on-road maners. That's what we like. That's why we hang out on DISCO-WEB (not "we love a things Land Rover web") | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 558 Registered: 04-2003 |
Amen, Matt. A little bit to add: Look at some of the photo galleries from out west. There are people driving 2000 miles in Discos from the East Coast, hitting trails that make your jaw drop, and then, after 5 or 6 days of these trails (8's or 9's, not 4's or 5's like that trail in Florida with the Bug), they turn around and 2000 miles back to the East Coast, all with little or no breakage or damage. Freeloaners are for driving down a dirt driveway, getting groceries, and then driving back up the dirt driveway to the house. I exaggerate, but not much. I'm not saying they're without their place, but Freeloaners are not designed for long-haul, expedition-style driving with any amount of serious offroading anywhere along the line. They don't have the ground clearance, or torque, or weight, or frame/body strength, or cargo capacity for that. Discos don't handle as well. For me, that's not even a close comparison...and I don't care who's driving each vehicle. Andy PS: Yes, I finally agree with Kyle on something. That, and that LR has a green oval, and that white Discoveries are the best color. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2003 |
"The point is that a Darby is going to get bashed to shit trying to follow a Disco to its limit. Stopping short of doing that really doesnt prove or end anything." ~ Kyle Well hell, a Discovery will probably roll over five or ten times killing everyone inside if it were to try and follow a Freelander around a wet mountain road at speed. I'm pretty certain you would want to stop before reaching that point..? I'm not trying to prove a Freelander can do EVERYTHING a Disco can do - that simply isn't true. What we've been trying to say, and which has been falling on deaf ears (or closed minds), is that the Freelander is a great car, and can do a lot more (on road and off) than other cars in it's class. There are plenty of reasons to BUY it (which was the origional question of the thread) and they include both on-road and off-road performance. I recognize the capability of a Discovery, that was why I was considering buying one. If I was blind to those capabilities, I would be buying a second Freelander or another Jeep. There are plenty of Land Rover fans who have both sitting in their drive ways. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 693 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill , I am not for certain that a new D2 with Ace couldnt smoke the Darby on the mountain road... In fact , I would that is more interesting to me then the offroad part. I know what that outcome will be... "Blow me" | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2002 |
This thread is just too funny- | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1341 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bill, I believe on a twisted mountain road a late RRC or P38 will kick the FL's ass, more so in inclement weather. And, mind it, it is just as capable as a Disco off pavement. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 561 Registered: 02-2002 |
The thread didn't so much get quiet as I was waiting for: a stock D1 and stock Freelander to step up for a field-test comparison that I will videotape and provide to Discoweb for their use. I've received some offline responses, but no solid takers yet. If we do this in my neck of the woods, we might wait for Uwharrie to open and use their trails for the evaluation. Could tie-in to a weekend of camping near the lake - should be nice come April. That should be plenty of time to put it together. If it happens at Paragon, just keep me informed if you want me to do the taping. Cheers, e | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2002 |
I will also gladly attend....Should be a good time either way...... "Blow me" | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 474 Registered: 10-2002 |
Include a CRV, RAV4, and liberty for comparison purposes, please. Otherwise, all we'll hear is, "but that's better than anything else in it's class would've done..." | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2003 |
Come on Greg, cut a fellow Riversider some slack, aye? You don't have a Dad or Grandfather by the name of Joe, do you? Joe Hirst was a great off-roader veteran in the San Bernardino area 25 - 35 years ago... | ||
| Gord Meadus (Nodrog) New Member Username: Nodrog Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://lsd.newmedia.tiscali-business.com/bb/redirect.lsc?stream=sport1//de/Motor vision/Motorvision/mv59-landrover_wmt_adsl.asf&content=content&media=ms Now to say ralleying a FL with a Disco and RR would be won not bt the FL I would have to disagree on dirt or asphalt.There's just no way and the RR would be the one up with it not a Disco I mean come on it would be on its roof in no time.The only Disco that will ralley well will be the 05 as seen on the track if youve seen that video or not. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 1345 Registered: 09-2002 |
Gord, if I didn't own a 95 RRC, I could agree with you. And P38s are even better on blacktop. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Andrew, if you want to prove the capabilities of your FL, don't show it stuck on a little hill with a Baja Bug at the top." So there was no mud or rocks in my pictures and instantly you dis-credit them !!!? Oh, and I was never 'stuck' on that little hill, which may I add a Disco (modified or not) would have had difficulty getting up too. Sure, it was not a 100km trail, but I am sure if this little hill was on one of your trails, you would be raving about it, and the difficulty of it. Yet, as Kyle intelligently added above, you were not there, so you really don't know. "Its not about making it up a hill or over an obstacle. Its about making it through a trail and turning around and coming back home. Then doing it again next weekend. And doing this again and again and again." Obviously you never caught the last Camel Trophy Landrover participated in ? ALL the FL's (XEdi's) made it through and home again (except the one that was dropped in a shipping container)   "FL's are road-biased cars with some comprimises designed in for off-road ability. Discos (especially the modified ones) are off-road biased cars with mediocre on-road maners." If you read my previous posts, I have NEVER said that the FL is trying to be a D90 or Disco ! And I have actually said EXACTLY what you just said. "Look at some of the photo galleries from out west. There are people driving 2000 miles in Discos from the East Coast, hitting trails that make your jaw drop, and then, after 5 or 6 days of these trails (8's or 9's, not 4's or 5's like that trail in Florida with the Bug), they turn around and 2000 miles back to the East Coast, all with little or no breakage or damage. Freeloaners are for driving down a dirt driveway, getting groceries, and then driving back up the dirt driveway to the house. I exaggerate, but not much. I'm not saying they're without their place, but Freeloaners are not designed for long-haul, expedition-style driving with any amount of serious offroading anywhere along the line." From these comments you are just as narrow minded about the ability of the FL as others on this site. I still have an article I saw in an Australian 4wd mag which sold me on my first FL XEdi, where they took a stock FL across the Sipmson Desert (Sydney to Birdsville) and over Big Red (several times successfully)... If none of you in Nth America know what that is, it is only one of the most difficult desert crossings in Australia, where many vehicles ended up stranded. And 'Big Red' would make your jaw drop. "or torque, or weight, or frame/body strength, or cargo capacity for that." Actually, the torque is excellent for it's weight (that is called 'power to weight ratio' - Doh ! And I know you don't get the TD4 there, but it has 260Nm, which is more power than most small-medium 4wds). It's frame body strength is strongest in it's class - where you can hang it up on two alternat wheels and still open/close all doors. And the FL can actually be supported by it's suspension arms without bending them if it does get hung up (both of those facts are from a LR press release). Oh, and of course the Disco has more cargo capacity being a larger vehicle (mind you, not much more !). "Discos are designed to do this right out of the box. They are robust body-on-frame trucks. If you don't understand the design limitations of a unit-body off-road vehicle with sedan suspension" Please... you talk as if I have never driven a 4wd larger than a FL ! Yes, I have been off road in a RR, 110County, Disco V8 and TD5, and various other 'live axle' 4wds. The point I have been trying to make is simply that the FL is VERY capable if you take into consideration all it's weaknesses that you are so enthusiastic to point out. "This thread is just too funny" I agree... it is turning into a joke. It really appears that no matter what we FL owners say or do, you will not accept the FL as being anything more than a CRV... and how wrong you are. So, go on and live in your little naive world with your Disco. And I am positive that even if you all get together with a FL, Disco, D90, etc, and the FL does show it's abilities, some of you would sit there and say "There must have been something wrong with my truck", or "We will have to do it all again... how about best of three?" | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3055 Registered: 02-2002 |
Obviously you never caught the last Camel Trophy Landrover participated in ? ALL the FL's (XEdi's) made it through and home again (except the one that was dropped in a shipping container) Andrew, that says it all....... The CT became a joke. Instead of being a driving event, it started to swing towards an outdoors event.... concentrating on kayaking and mountain biking instead. '97 was the last year for the Disco, the '98 was the FL, and after that, Land Rover pulled out.... so, the last CT was in 2000, and what did they use? A CRV....... lol.... will not accept the FL as being anything more than a CRV Well, the CT switched from Darby to the CRV, shouldn't we? heh heh..... FWIW, I've driven a lifted FL, and it kept getting high-centered where the fat muffler underneath, whereas the wife's stock Disco was completely fine in the same spot... traction control is better than nothing, but I'd take a CDL first..... FWIW... -L | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill-no relation. My grandfather did live in Loma Linda since 1937 but wrong name. He also liked to wheel in the 60's and 70's with jeep and later early bronco. Andrew-LOL-I don't own a disco. I've driven an FL offroad and saw the limits... | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2003 |
Greg - That would have been a nice surprise if he had been... the Joe Hirst I knew rebuilt old Willy's and was the guy who gave me my first ride off-road. He lived in Rialto and moved up to Hesperia when he retired. BTW - I was born and raised in Riverside, lived there until about 3 years ago - bought both my old Jeeps from Johnson's over on Cypress. Did you know "Pop", or any of those guys? | ||
| Joe Hedrick (Staycalm) New Member Username: Staycalm Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2004 |
Erik, you keep mentioning that you want footage of the FL, but don't you have some from the 2002 B2B? You have been a bit more reserved in your support here than when you supported Mike Keenan's defense of FLs capabilities. From the B2B forum: Date: Thursday, June 05, 2003 1:13:49 AM Name: Erik Olson Subject: Simon's a Defender snob now! Parent ID: 19 Thread ID: 19 How soon Mr. Burn forgets how well the tiniest Land Rover did on TA02 - I'll back you Mike! We've got some terrific footage of the Freelandy throughout the trip, hopefully we'll have the edit done soon and Simon might reconsider his classification! Cheers, e I was just curious as to what might have ever happened with that. Thanks! | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2003 |
I knew it was only a matter of time before he was gonna bring up the Camel Trophy. "I doubt even a modified Disco would have been able to get up the hill I mention below" "Oh, and I was never 'stuck' on that little hill, which may I add a Disco (modified or not) would have had difficulty getting up too." So which is it? Can it make it or not? First your FL can go where a modified disco cannot. Now it can go the same place a stock one can with difficulty. What's next? | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 476 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill- Yes, I've been to Johnson's. My neighbor has a jeep and we would go there on occasion. They were a very rare Jeep dealer. Great people. I was sad to see them go even though I don't have a jeep. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 14 Registered: 02-2004 |
"The CT became a joke. Instead of being a driving event, it started to swing towards an outdoors event" So the G4 was also a joke ? Hang on... there was a Disco in that too. There is that attitude again, just because the Disco was replaced in the CT it became a joke. Wonder if D90 owners said the same thing when the Disco replaced it ?... maybe not. "Andrew-LOL-I don't own a disco. I've driven an FL offroad and saw the limits..." Glad you are laughing... must mean that you have also driven a CRV and RAV off road to it's limits too ? "I doubt even a modified Disco would have been able to get up the hill I mention below" "Oh, and I was never 'stuck' on that little hill, which may I add a Disco (modified or not) would have had difficulty getting up too." Two different hills... the first is the 50deg hill, the second is the smaller hill. I don't really care if you like the FL or not, but making un-educated claims towards the FL and then trying to get FL owners to prove you are right is really childish. It is telling of some attitudes here. Sure my day off road in the pics above was just small tracks... again though it showed how hypocritical you are - You show pics of your trucks hanging wheels up in all directions, and go 'WOW'! I show pics of my FL hanging wheels up and you go 'Whoopie Do'. I'm sorry I didn't impress... will have to find a rock to do it on next. Yes, yes... A whole trail of rocks. There were some really intelligent and logical remarks made early on about the FLs poor sales. I only became defensive towards the FL when you look how skewed this tread has become from the original topic. Disco owners had to come on here and say that the FL sales are poor because they suck compared to a modified Disco. Really, come on now... If this was a court case, most of the Disco owners arguments would have been thrown out long ago for lack of real life or relevant evidence comparing the FL to it's competitors (and even their own trucks). BTW - level of difficulty is all relative... Sure the Baja made it up both hills, but it would find Rock-hopping impossible. However, The Patrol and others found both hills difficult, but I am positive the Patrol would rock-hop better than your Disco. But for me... I will just continue to have fun burning through soft sand stopping to help Discos (and others) bogged up to thier axles. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 3057 Registered: 02-2002 |
So the G4 was also a joke ? Hang on... there was a Disco in that too. The G4 was in all the vehicles, Disco, RR, FL, and Defenders. But yes, it was a joke, the vehicles took you around to events, nothing seriously challenged the vehicles' abilities. -L | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2004 |
"...the FL is VERY capable if you take into consideration all of its weaknesses..." Yeah and the Disco is great Formula 1 car too if you take into consideration all of its weakness. Besides the fact that it is way too heavy, underpowered, underbraked, top-heavy and a purpose built offroad vehicle, it is really amazing on the track. You'd be suprised what it can do. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 410 Registered: 07-2002 |
G4 and CT? Your talking about 2 events that are pitting team against team to compete against each other for a trophey at the end if it, in trucks the team members neither own or have any kind finacial responsibility for damages they incure to those, followed by a fleet of support trucks. Hell, give me a free Freelander that someone else will pay to maintain, a Defender 110 full of parts and mechanics, to follow me and I will run any trail on the planet. This is a Big big differance on how you drive a truck in a COMPETITION or just in general. You give me a truck to compete in that I dont have any finacial obligation for, you better belive that its coming home with dents in it if I am going for a trophey. Secondly, thats a pretty picture of the CT Freelander crossing the nice deep stream but you convieniantly leave out that the CT Freelanders were Diesel and had a very modified air intake systems to additionally protect against such crossings (again being drivin by someone who did own it). There were a few good pictures of this system on the CT Yahoo group. I dont think I have access to the that group anymore but I think I save the pictures of that system on my home PC. It was pretty slick and I will see if I can dig them up. The reason everyone is yawning to your lifted tire pic is that we have been seeing lifted tires for over 5 year here. Anyone can lift a tire on a truck, has nothing to do with the ability of the truck. I can pop the wheel on my Saab up in the air.. its just finding the balance point. While they are still cool to look at, it something that a lot of people here are used to seeing. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 562 Registered: 02-2002 |
Joe, I fulfilled my contractual obligation as Executive Producer on the Trans-American Trek from Mexico to Canada by managing broadcast-quality acquisition during the 2300 mile event. The post-production is and was to be handled as a stipulation of that agreement by another entity. Contractual program rights reverted to Overland Films in 2003, and we are exploring the viability of the program from a commercial standpoint. John Lee, you stay out of this. I don't want to hear, "I told you so!" out of you! With the Belize trip taking a huge amount of my time now, I'm not certain that I'll be able to dedicate enough time to finishing the B2B program anytime soon. On the matter of Mr. Keenan's Freelander, what exactly would you say that I'd changed in my description of the FL's performance? If you read any of my posts on this subject - anywhere - you may note that I've never said anything about the FL's ability, or lack thereof. I cannot recall, nor do I care to re-read this thread to find out, but Mike Keenan drove thousands of miles to and from the event's departure and arrival points and did the event with no breakage whatever. So, in my limited experience, the FL is just as capable when it comes to getting to and from an event. Is it a rock-crawling Exxxtreeme rig? No, and neither are any of our Discos either. Unless you've bobtailed your rig, gone solid axles front and rear and installed a full exo-cage, I don't think any of us here (thank f-ing God) qualify as Exxtreeeme. Mr. Keenan's truck, and mine, were two of very few vehicles that did not require some mechanical intervention during the event for whatever that is worth. I don't push my truck to the limits, instead using it as a tool to get from point A to B without becoming stranded in the middle. This is not necessarily the stardard everyone works to or prefers. That is between them and their truck and whoever or whatever they worship. Mike got hung-up in one place during the 2300 mile trek, and made it through "slow and steady" by taking a new line. I have two camera angles of this obstacle and roughly fifteen trucks of various type making it through. My unlocked D1 with Dunlop R/Ts never spun a tire once during the trip, but that is more a testament to my experience with Western-style rocky terrain, not the vehicle's capability. Selecting the right gear and range goes a long, long way toward "as little as possible, as much as necessary" method of getting through. Other drivers on the trek had a heavier foot, and powered through such transactions - I tend to worry more about breaking my standard half-shafts though! Any other questions? e | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 563 Registered: 02-2002 |
I should add that the first time I set tire on this crazy Carolina red clay, I had a terrible time with traction on any grade whatever. Dan Ratcliffe spotted me safely through (good candidate for universal spotter if we do the FL comparison in the NC), but I was spinning tire like mad trying to claw my way through. It's all about experience, and in this slick stuff, I need all the practice I can get! My point is, what I know about muddy terrain, you could fit into a thimble compared to my experience and level of competency Out West (e.g., sand and rocks). e | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2003 |
As for the comparison, I have driven all four (D110) vehicles at Land Rover University in Lanham, MA under the direction of the '95 Camel Trophy winners. After talking with them in December of 2002, I felt that they were very impressed with the Freelander's Offroad capabilities. The Freelander had to work a little bit harder but it always made it through. They will tell you, "just sit back and let the vehicle work." | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 402 Registered: 02-2002 |
"As for the comparison, I have driven all four (D110) vehicles at Land Rover University in Lanham, MA under the direction of the '95 Camel Trophy winners. After talking with them in December of 2002, I felt that they were very impressed with the Freelander's Offroad capabilities. The Freelander had to work a little bit harder but it always made it through. They will tell you, "just sit back and let the vehicle work." you are at Land rover university.. what do you think they are going to tell you?? They get paid to train salespeople on the product. You got the "dipped in green" sales pitch. It works on alot of people. Did you take it over the controlled enviroment track, or thru the red clay muck behind the university? If you looked closer you would have noted that none of them drove off in a freelander when the "work day" was done. They almost all run D1s, RRCs, or 90s. on a side note, after checking out the freelanderliving site I must say that guy Shaka has a slick freelander. 20" wheels, eibachs.. i bet that truck is fun to drive on the street. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2003 |
All of those guys can afford to step up into those vehicles. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gil, I'm not ignorant, nor am I stupid. I have a problem with not believing things I have not seen for myself. The "dipped in green" sales pitch did get me pumped, but I have to deal with real life experience. In the car business I have almost any car at my disposal and being a Land Rover dealer everybody wants to see what they will do. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 403 Registered: 02-2002 |
?? I never said you were ignorant or stupid. The dipped in green pitch does get you pumped, thats the point. I asked if you ran it thru the clay because ive seen p38s and D2s with MTs get stuck in that mess, if the FL did get thru, id be impressed. | ||
| Joe Hedrick (Staycalm) New Member Username: Staycalm Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2004 |
Eric, I posted that because you're almost the only one, as far as I can see from this thread, that has spent a large amount of time with the FL in the company of other LRs. It wasn't clear to me from the posts here what you thought of their capabilities, but you had enthusiastically supported Mike's assertion that his FL went almost everywhere (and I'll concede that almost with no problem) that the other Rovers did so I naturally had the idea that you were impressed. I have seen that some of the Rover press (LRM in particular) has been giving the FL grudging repect-that counts for a lot with me and the other FL owners. It goes both ways of course, the FL is not the ultimate off-road vehicle, it's not meant to be. I think the problem comes from this idea that to be worthy at all it has to be pushed to the extremes. Speaking for myself only I'm happy to acknowledge that at certain extremes the Disco will prove to be superior, however it seems the height of ignornace or denial to make statements like some (not you Eric) have made about the FL being no better than a CRV or a Rav4, when that clearly is not the case. I think the FL owners are, in general, less experienced off-road and are working up to more difficult challenges. The FL owners are also driving essentially new rigs that are expensive to repair (as are the new Discos and RRs). Finally, FLs are also dealing with an issue of rear main seals on these vehicles and its not clear yet as to what extent Land Rover is standing behind their product. Considering these factors, people are naturally reluctant to really push the envelope as it can get costly. I'm sure as FL enters the used market and can be had more cheaply (similar to what has happened with Disco), you'll see more of the extremes the FL is capable of. FYI there is a FL owner in NC that did reasonably well on that crazy Carolina clay you mentioned-he got stuck but that seems to have been due as much to inexperience as anything else (he admits needing some help and some pointers that the friendly folks of the NC club were more than willing to give). (The link posted is not "evidence" merely a reference to the event I mention) http://www.freelanderliving.com/stories/view.asp?fldID=50 I'm not sure that the "challenges" would serve any real purpose because it seems many of the folks posting here will never be convinced that the FL is anything more than a CRV with the Rover name. More's the pity. How much better it would be for everyone if there was a constructive and inclusive attitude and energies were poured into helping the FL drivers become more skilled? Maybe we would all learn some things... | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 46 Registered: 01-2004 |
Andrew, If someone were to offer you a straight-up trade, 04 Discovery for 04 Freelander what you do, and why ? BT. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bruno, Isn't that a bit like asking, "if someone offered you $10,000+, what would you do?" | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 47 Registered: 01-2004 |
Bill, I understand your point, but in this (very) theoretical example it would not be a cash offer... it would simply be a Discovery for a Freelander, what would you do? and why? BT. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 565 Registered: 02-2002 |
I'm buying a Freelander SE for my wife this weekend. Actually, it'll be in her name, cause she's the one with the big-time job right now. I doubt seriously if she will ever let me take that POS off-road, but I'm still happy to have another green oval in the driveway. I will say this for the record: from what I've seen firsthand of the FL off-highway, I'd say that it performs very well despite the classic four-wheel drive "trade-offs" Land Rover made when designing for the cute-ute segment. Moving forward, Land Rover continues to make these same "trade-offs" to the full range of their vehicles. We'd all better decide to get comfortable with the new direction LR is taking the technology or be satisfied to drive our current trucks for fifty years like those Series guys seem happy to do. On-road, I want a 2002 HSE Range Rover P38 (last year they made 'em right?). Off-road, I like the comfort, pricepoint (paid-off) and flexibility of my Discovery 1. I will go find a low-milage 2004 DIIa to replace my D1 in two years or so. When it comes to what the missus wants - well that's entirely up to her, and I think I already addressed that earlier - 2003 Freelander SE demo. e | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2003 |
IMO Disco - Serious off-roading (big rocks, deep mud, etc.) Freelander - Daily Driver. Disco - Long hauls w/ lots of stuff. Freelander - Short or long hauls w/ light load. Disco - Deep unplowed snow. Freelander - Ice or rain on-road. The thing about the Freelander is that you get a really good daily driver and the ability to go off-roading on fire trails, beaches, etc. Which is all most people want to do. You do give up ground clearance, low-range, CDL, etc. With the Disco you get a good off-road machine that can get you back and forth to where ever you want to go, but you have to pay the extra price tag, give up sport handeling, its less comfortable, and you pay for the extra fuel. Now if you want to get back some of that comfort and handeling (and then some) go plop down $77K for a new Ranger Rover and blow both vehicles out of the water in most categories... There is no single perfect "do all" - "be all" vehicle. At least not for all people. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 48 Registered: 01-2004 |
AGREED, except for the $77K... A-plan = $72K (and a 1 year depreciation schedule to boot!) LOL, BT. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 405 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bill.. I couldnt agree more with those statements. see that, and it only took 230 posts to come to an agreement. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2003 |
ROTFLMAO - Quick, get Axel or Ho to close the thread before Kyle finds out... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 697 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kyle is always watching......... "Blow me" | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 898 Registered: 02-2002 |
"My question is, why is our market doing so poorly with the freelander and is there any thing I can do to introduce this vehicle into our city?" probably pretty clear by now don't you think? jaime  | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2004 |
"If someone were to offer you a straight-up trade, 04 Discovery for 04 Freelander what you do, and why ?" Unfortunately I cannot afford to have two vehicles, so when I look at a vehicle to suit all my needs, this weighs heavily on my decision. However, Since I have driven both '03 TD5 and '02 V8 Discos, I can make an educated response to your question. I would still take the FL because... 1.I dont need 7 seats or the extra cargo capacity 2.I don't tow a 2.5 tonne boat/camper 3.I do find the interior design of the Disco a little tight (and I am not a big guy). 4.I don't need the extra cost in fuel. 5.They are simply not as brisk on the road. 6.The Disco's roof height is a problem with underground carparks. 7.So far my Freelanders have not let me down off-road. Please don't get me wrong though... I do really like the look of the Discos, and always have. If I ever found myself wanting of a capable 4wd that can take a family (when I have one), then I would probably pick a Disco over any other in it's class. Both the Discos I drove had ACE, which I cannot believe is not used in the FL or any other 4wd for that matter - LOVED IT ! And I tested ACE to the extreme in Germany on the Autobahn. Near zero body roll at 160km/h - amazing. Then go off road and have all the suspension travel you want. And when I talk about my neighbours 110County I drove, they also had one of the first P38 RR's in Oz. I am a fan of ALL the LR product. It is a shame that the CT is now lost, as I watched almost every event (esp '86 in Oz !). I also went to a LR drive day back in '89 held west of Brisbane - they had 90s, 110s, RRs which were all professionally driven to their limits in the bush - and you could go along for the ride ! | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2004 |
oh, and forgot to add... the FL comes in soft top and still has 5 seats with cargo space if the need ever arises. Something that NO other 4wd in the world can claim. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 698 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anyone got a Subaru brat ? "Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Secondly, thats a pretty picture of the CT Freelander crossing the nice deep stream but you convieniantly leave out that the CT Freelanders were Diesel and had a very modified air intake systems to additionally protect against such crossings (again being drivin by someone who did own it). There were a few good pictures of this system on the CT Yahoo group. I dont think I have access to the that group anymore but I think I save the pictures of that system on my home PC. It was pretty slick and I will see if I can dig them up." Yeah... I know they were diesel "ALL the FL's (XEdi's) made it through"... and I too owned an XEdi. Modified air intake ? but they were not fitted with snorkels, so that is still alot of water over the front ! You could actually buy the ex-CT FL's in the UK kept to their CT spec - now that would have been a great vehicle to pick up. Came with the front/rear de-mountable winches, roof mounted lights, etc, etc. | ||
| Chris von C. (Chrisvonc) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Chrisvonc Post Number: 411 Registered: 07-2002 |
Andrew, yes... it was not really a snorkel. One of the CT freelander owners posted a whole load of pictures of their truck right after they bought it. One of the impressive things I remember asking about at the time was the huge, almost washboard type device on top of the engine that I was told by the CT group was was the air intake system (which I had not seen on regular production deisel FL's) for the event that was basicly an under the hood snokel that kept the water out of the intake. I just rejoined the CT Yahoo group this evening but it appears their group was deleted last year at some point and everything was lost. I did a Google search in hopes of finding the picture set but no luck. Here is a picture of the engine compartment of a real CT Freelander minus the device. If it would be installed in that picture, it basicly covered almost the entire top of the engine block: http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Freelander/Trophy_Freelander4.jpg Compaired to the production version of the engine: http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Freelander/Dscn0042.jpg | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2004 |
"I would still take the FL because... " 1.I dont need 7 seats or the extra cargo capacity > Advantage - Disco, added pass. seating, or fold away. 2.I don't tow a 2.5 tonne boat/camper > Advantage - Disco, pull a heavy load if needed. 3.I do find the interior design of the Disco a little tight (and I am not a big guy). > Advantage - Disco, in Headroom, Legroom and Shoulderroom Disco - http://www.new-cars.com/2003/land-rover/land-rover-discovery-specs.html#interior Freelander - http://www.new-cars.com/2003/land-rover/land-rover-freelander-specs.html#interio r 4.I don't need the extra cost in fuel. > Agreed (although fairly insignificant in NA) 5.They are simply not as brisk on the road. > Advantage - Disco, 0-60 = 9.5 / 116 mph FL, 0-60 = 10.1 / 113 mph 6.The Disco's roof height is a problem with underground carparks. > Not for me, (with a lift) 7.So far my Freelanders have not let me down off-road. > Advantage - Disco, look up - Approach, departure, breakover, wading, etc. It's not looking good for you Andrew, I do commend you on your tenacity however ! LOL, BT. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 700 Registered: 11-2002 |
oops.......... "Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 561 Registered: 04-2003 |
116 in a Disco? Yikes... More to the point -- Time to cut your losses and move on to FreeloanerWeb.Org, Freeloaner peeps... (Anyone else reminded of the old XTerra-vs-Disco thread? Those guys, too, claimed "XTerras can hang with a Disco" at first -- and then began to claim that they didn't need the capabilities of the Disco for their application. We're paralleling that now...) | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2004 |
Obviously you didn't read my post properly... I stated that I did not NEED any of that, so it does not justify the extra $$. And if I did buy a Disco, it would be the TD5, which I know you don't get over there, so I was comparing performance to that. Misunderstanding there. Most of the Aust carparks are 1.8-2.0m in clearance, and all Aust Discos have the roof bars - hence Problem !!! The Aust. Towing Capacity for a FL is 2000kg (braked), which is only 495kg less than the Disco, and best in it's class. Oh, and don't know why Kyle said "oops" with the following stats Approach angle: Disco - 31deg FL - 30.5deg (so marginal it's not funny) Departure angle: disco - 21-25deg FL - 33.9deg ! (Hmmm - interesting) Of course the Freelander is lesser in the other comparative spec areas, but I will say again that it has not let me down yet. "and then began to claim that they didn't need the capabilities of the Disco for their application. We're paralleling that now..." You guys are funny... I have NEVER said that I DID need the capabilities of a Disco for my application, so therefore I now can not possibly be denying this in my last post re Disco vs FL purchase. You asked me a question, which I answered honestly and with logical explanation. Just because the Disco was offered I was not going to say yes to it to piss in your pockets. I actually considered an '02 Demo TD5 disco prior to my current FL, and being in the car industry they were about the same price. However after driving one for 1400klm over 3days in Germany (not just a test drive around the block), I really decided I didn't need a vehicle that large. It had nothing to do with 4wd ability or lack there of. "Time to cut your losses and move on " And there is no need for me to 'cut my losses' as such, because I have not lost anything ! I have owned two FL's which have taken me everywhere I wanted to go, and have given me ZERO problems. My Uncle still has my previous XEdi and still has not had a problem with it. It is just people like BT who feel they have to prove the Disco is better than the FL. READ MY POSTS... I have never said it wasn't - I like the Discos... and think they are great trucks. You don't have to convince me... I just happen to own a FL at the moment. Simple as that | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 566 Registered: 02-2002 |
I just bought a Freelander, and I'll bet it off-roads the ***t out of a Discovery. From what I hear, the Baby Rover or "Hippo" is just as capable as a modified Discovery and $25,000 less! e | ||
| Matt Moore (Mmoore) New Member Username: Mmoore Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2004 |
Erik, you should have bought a CRV or a RAV4. I here they are basically the same thing. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 52 Registered: 01-2004 |
What, nobody likes the Ford Escape ? LOL, BT. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2003 |
The thread that wouldn't die.....  | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2003 |
I got board today. This is what my office window looks out on.           | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2002 |
And now I'm bored too after looking at those pics... | ||
| Sean McAfee (Breeze61) New Member Username: Breeze61 Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2004 |
"More to the point -- Time to cut your losses and move on to FreeloanerWeb.Org, Freeloaner peeps... " Reading this thread has been amusing, but the hostility is a little much. What if I own a Disco AND a Freelander and a (gasp) Cherokee? Am I still welcome here? What if I don't plan to climb rocks just for the sake of climbing rocks but plan to use the Disco to GO places, like fishing, camping or skiing? I had enough of bouncing around rocks with no real purpose in the army (and if you want to compare apples to oranges like the Disco vs FL, how about my M60A3 vs a Disco? If a rock was too big to go over, the 105mm cannon would just remove it. Tread lightly my ass <g>). Anyway, I'm wondering if I'm hardcore enough for this bunch... | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2003 |
Damn Greg, are you that high maintenace. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 959 Registered: 02-2003 |
Of course you are. I own a Disco and a Freelander myself.... We wouldn't have a Freelander section if we didn't want you here.... - Axel | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 482 Registered: 10-2002 |
Actually I am easily amused. Why else would I wade (no pun intended...well, maybe so) through this 250+ post thread... | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2003 |
This must be approaching a record? OK, here's one you Discovery guys will love... I think I'll be heading the the NY Auto show to check out the 05 Disco. You've convinced me, I've got to have one! Not replacing the Freelander though, just adding to the stable... Would be a shame if they've watered it down so that my Freelander actually becomes the better off-road vehicle. . . . . . . . . Just kidding!!!! | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Reading this thread has been amusing, but the hostility is a little much. What if I own a Disco AND a Freelander and a (gasp) Cherokee? Am I still welcome here?" Sean, what you just said is extremely relevant... I said in one of my earlier posts "the attitude Land Rover owners hold of ALL Land Rovers does reflect directly on all the Land Rover products. It is one of the Key elements in any marketing/sales... the best Ambassador for any product is the person who already has the product - as long as they don't criticize it!" What the majority of more agressive FL slayers posting on this thread didn't think about is simply that some FL owners also own older series Landies, D90/110s, Discos and RR's and love them all. Instead this thread started to attack the individual owners who just couldn't seem to 'cut it' with Disco owners, even if they do take their FL off road and supplied pics. What they didn't know is that they were burning people (maybe they don't care)... which is not really being a good ambassador for this site let alone LR products. You would think that a site like this would be trying to prosper and grow with new Disco/RR/FL/D90 owners, emphasising enjoyment of one's vehicle, and support from other memebers (on or off a trail). However it seems that as soon as someone mentioned a FL being even close to a Disco in any similarity, a Disco Cult like feeling arose - You have to Rock-hop and do hard core trails, or your out of the ring... sorry, and 'blow me' ! So, short of gathering together a D90/RR/Disco/FL/Cherokee/Liberty/CRV/RAV4/M60A3 to run around being filmed competing against each other, I have a question: What photograph of a FL would Disco owners (and one FL owner) like to see that would make you go 'WOW' to it's abilities ? I am just curious | ||
| Eric N (Eric_n) Member Username: Eric_n Post Number: 59 Registered: 01-2004 |
Isn't the '05 Disco just a bigger version of the Freelander? Looks like it to me, so you may not be very far off base about the new Disco vers. Freelander when it comes to offroad ability. Not to mention that from what I have seen of it I think that it looks ugly as hell. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Would be a shame if they've watered it down so that my Freelander actually becomes the better off-road vehicle." I have heard that it has the handling of an Aston, the Engine of a Jag, The AWD system of a Volvo, The build quality of a Ford, and the seats are LR (I think ?) oh, and the badge is also LR ... of course I don't know this as a fact, but thought it sounded logical. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hard to really tell what it looks like just yet... you could be right, or completely out in left field. Anyone seen a more recent picture than this?  | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2003 |
"emphasising enjoyment of one's vehicle, and support from other memebers." I think that is all that needs to be said. | ||
| Erik Olson (Jon) Senior Member Username: Jon Post Number: 567 Registered: 02-2002 |
"...build quality of a Ford" - OH SHIT!!!! e | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 715 Registered: 11-2002 |
I said in one of my earlier posts "the attitude Land Rover owners hold of ALL Land Rovers does reflect directly on all the Land Rover products. It is one of the Key elements in any marketing/sales... the best Ambassador for any product is the person who already has the product - as long as they don't criticize it!" "which is not really being a good ambassador for this site let alone LR products." Andrew , have you bumped your head ? Now again someone is telling us what is best for the site. Do you see a lack of Discovery owners on this site ? How many of them do you think give a flying shit about how many cars land rover sells ? Those people AND this site have nothing to gain from sales that they do or do not make..... Snap out of it... "Blow me" | ||
| Tim '92 RR (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 684 Registered: 12-2002 |
I parked my RRC with wimpy 225/75/16 BFG KO's next to a Freebie a few days ago in a parking lot. It was funny how with all the things on my mind that day, I thought of this thread! There certainly was not much clearance under it and I started to think of the possible changes it would need to keep up with my truck. All in all I am presently a Freelander centrist. However let's say I buy one late this summer and want to off-road it. My budget for mods is 2k, what would you recommend? Also good morning Kyle, I see you are online. Tim | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 961 Registered: 02-2003 |
If you are keeping the RR and get a Freelander as an addition, I would say use your 2K to build up the RR and leave the Freelander stock. Otherwise, I would start with tires and go from there. - Axel | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2004 |
No Kyle, you missed the point... I and many others on this site know you really don't give a shit about LR as a company and other LR owners for that matter. Hypothetical for you... Your Disco just happens to break down on a trail and a NEW RR driver comes along to assist. While he is hitching up to your vehicle he askes what you think of the FL. You say it is a piece of shit because it runs independent suspension on a Monocoque chassis, has hardly any LR blood in it, and too much technology (ABS, ETC, HDC) that is a waste of money for real 4wds. Since you just described his RR too, next thing you know he has un-hitched from you and driven off leaving you there while it gets dark. Meanwhile he registers on this site not knowing it was you, and starts a thread on about this Disco owner he came across and the attitude towards other LR product and how appauling it is. He also mentions that he is an Ex-LR tech with 20yrs LR experience AND ownes a FL and D90 along with the RR. Of course you reply to his Thread with 'Blow me' and he leaves the site. He could however have been a great mechanically minded asset to this site. BUT you don't seem to see this side of the picture you put across. Anyway, it's just a hypothetical and you will probably respond with something like "but my truck will never break down", or "I always have my buddies with me to help me, and they also think the FL is a piece of crap" And that is another point I was making... you always have to be so defensive towards this site and your Disco - like something or someone is threatening you somehow ? Of course you are entitled to your opinion, just like me who was defending the FL. The difference is I have an educated defence after driving 25+ different 4wds (some competitors to the FL, some competitors to the Disco). You have not. And taking that into account, you may as well set up an 'Auto post' saying 'Blow Me' and 'I don't give a shit' to any thread/post someone makes that mentions the FL. In fact I recall you saying to Bill: "THe really really fun part is that you come on the site here and start telling me what you and darby can do. The reality is that you have done nothing and dont even know your damn self...." The really funny part is that Kyle you started and still do tell FL owners what the FL can do. The reality is that you have done nothing in a FL and therefore don't even know your damn self. 'Bite ME' BTW - I have not had any response to what photograph of a FL offroading would make you say 'WOW'. Probably one being blown up, hey Kyle ? | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2004 |
Tim, best pop on the Freelanderliving site, as quite a few FL owners have lifted their vehicles, and a few have actually lifted Discos too so they know what they are doing. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 718 Registered: 11-2002 |
Exactly Andrew , none of your hypotheticals are going to happen. I will either fix it (Because it is very trail serviceable) , or someone I am with will drag me out. If you doubt that either of these are hard fact then ask the rest of the crew that I travel with. Because these two solutions are not realities for you doesnt mean that they arent a hard reality for someone ... It happens to be my reality.. Now as far as what I have driven... Well , I have driven and repaired more cars and trucks then you probably know exist in many years of being a mechanic. The FL is limited by design , that same design limits modifications to overcome its shortcomings . This is just the way it is. Its a shame that you dont like it but , tough shit I guess..... If its not the case . Then where are they ? I see probably 20 of those cute little things every day on the road to work in the concrete jungle and I see Zero when ever we go on a trip. YOu have shown some bullshit pictures of a freelander on a grass fucking hill. Go looking into discovery owners galleries here and it takes about 30 seconds to find one unmodified doing something more then a grass run that a bug can do. As far as me being defensive of the site ? Yeah dumb ass , all three of us are , we own it... And when people like you start on and on about "Land Rover" as a company and how we are running the site I make comment on it.. So I gotta ask Andrew , What the hell are you doing aside from posting pics of grassy hills ? Bottom line is that the DArby will NOT run with its brothers . Yet , all of its brothers can keep up with each other. That makes it a stepchild in my book.... "Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2002 |
I forgot to add Andrew . Our trips have almost always involved a few thousand miles of road travel combined with running what most people feel are the hardest trails in the United States. I have had no failures in all of those trips . Thanks for the concern though... Further more . We run with the usual suspects. Classic rangies,Discoveries and Defenders. Yes there have been failures that some might consider catastrophic (You namely if you think that grass hill is something to brag about) and yes these guys are a few thousand miles from home as well. YES they have been dealt with right then and there enough to get the truck out of the trail in the direction we started heading in. Yeah , thats right , our record is 100% as far as completion goes. We dont turn around and have never been forced to because of failure. Darby on the other hand couldnt survive the fucking MAR and get home under its own power..... I respect your defense over what you chose to drive but the more you defend it the more your ignorance and inexperience shows itself.... I say again , either put up or shut up.... Its that simple... If you are questioning me and what I know you dont have to loo far on this site to see where I have been.. All we have from you is what I will now dub "The grassy knoll"............... "Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2004 |
I notice you still have not posted my photo gallery pics I sent you... maybe you won't now? - that's your discression. As for what else I am doing with my FL (if you are curious) - watch this space. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 720 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well if you sent them to ME they wont get posted. If you read the gallery page it tells you where to send them..... "Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2004 |
Sent them to the email address in the Gallery page. Probably worth you posting them (or whoever there does post them) just so you and the other Disco owners can have a good laugh Don't get me wrong... just because of all this slightly heated debate, I have not lost my sense of humour | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 618 Registered: 02-2002 |
andrew, here are the pics you sent. i didn't make you a gallery cuz we are just tired of the same ole lame shit.          Ho Chung | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 721 Registered: 11-2002 |
There ya go "Blow me" | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kyle, missing the point again, as always. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 722 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ben , what the hell is the point then?You asked why sales were poor. You are hearing why. Did the point change ? The point is that even the general public can recognize that its not the Land Rover that has the legend behind it. You fool a few though so I wouldnt be so discouraged. "Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 723 Registered: 11-2002 |
And Ben , its "Salesman" , not "Sales Guide" . The theory behind changing the name is the same theory behind the Darby. Thinking a name will make people think its something its not.... "Blow me" | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2004 |
If you are talking about the original question and not lame pics of FLs, then I will just re-quote myself... "The Freelander Sales are poor in Nth America for one simple reason. It is not the quality or performance of the FL, nor the price, or the Disco and older Landie owners bagging them. It is because LR missed one essential fact when conducting it's original market research for the FL (prior to it's release and now too !). Owners of most 'soft roaders' both current and prospective don't really give a damn about it's off-road ability." and "One day LR may wake up and realise that 'LAND ROVER' plastered on the bonnet will not sell cars." This may very well happen with the release of the new 'baby RR'. | ||
| gil stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 406 Registered: 02-2002 |
oh man.. I thought this thread died a couple of days ago. I love the big talk from down under.. "you just wait, ill post my pics and then youll believe!!" are you kidding me with those pics?? guy, I can take pictures of my TT doing the same shit in my backyard. Those prove nothing other than what was already stated. The FL has no more real "off-road" ability than a VW Bug. I would have kept those pics to myself if I were you. I think a novel idea would be to take a FL, strip everything off underneath and mount it to a 100" D1 or RRC chassis. the FL is 101" so i think somebody could make it work. Thats the only way to make a FL truly "capable" | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2003 |
As I said Kyle, you are missing the point. Forget the fact that I am a Land Rover "Salesman" and remeber that I'm an owner. Selling the Freelander and not really knowing the vehicle until after I have driven it every day for the last 5 months, I realize this is an overlooked 4wd(or daily driver). Why did I not realize that when we first got the Freelander. I'm trying to figure out why more people don't know this. I do understand now that it is people like you. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 725 Registered: 11-2002 |
Again , I am not missing the point. Although it would be much better for you if I was ,,,,,right ? Its not "Overlooked" its "Unwanted" there is a difference... Although saying its "Overlooked" makes it easier to deny that no one wants it... "Blow me" | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2002 |
Another reason could be that the darby salesman are here posting on the web instead of trying to bullshit some poor sap into buying one... "Blow me" | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2003 |
"The FL has no more real "off-road" ability than a VW Bug" You've got to be kidding, that is the most ridiculous statement I've heard. "I would have kept those pics to myself if I were you" I agree. The pictures I posted were just what I've got access to within 20 seconds of my desk. I've been through worse. Some of the pictures posted are not proving the defense of Freelander offroad ability. I can not believe that there are people posting here that claim the Freelander has no true offroad ability. That just gets on my damn nerves. I think that is there point though. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kyle, I think your wit has been overlooked. | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2003 |
Unwanted by who? You do not really matter in the Land Rover community, so who care what you think? | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 727 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gord is the only one that has even remotely come off as having done anything in his truck. Not only that , but he has a good attitude about it... "Blow me" | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1616 Registered: 02-2003 |
this is still going? Christ, someone kill this horse already... Rob | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 691 Registered: 09-2002 |
Yes, it's still going. However, I have another answer to the original question. I just finished reading the January 2004 edition of What Car? (a British magazine). It has a comparison test of the Honda CR-V 2.0 SE Sport, Land Rover Freelander 1.8 S and Nissan X-Trail 2.5 Sport. Despite admitting that the Freelander has 'genuine off-road ability', it looses every other category. The bottom line is cost of ownership. The Freelander gets 2 out of 5, the Nissan a 3, and the Honda a 4. Other categories like 'performance' and 'behind the wheel' are equally bad for the Freelander ("The Land Rover's high price, poor driving position and dearth of pace, space and safety kit mean it can only finish third"). Given that the majority of Land Rover owners - all models - don't take them off-road, combined with the lack of advertising, I don't see how anyone in the market for a $30k SUV would even have the Freelander on their short list. As far as FL v. Disco, that's a whole other issue. SC | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 728 Registered: 11-2002 |
"You do not really matter in the Land Rover community, so who care what you think?" Oh really ? Then why are you on my website asking questions ? LOL And aparently they are unwanted by most Einstien , you are the one that posted the question asking why sales are so poor... Go back to sleep man... "Blow me" | ||
| Ben (Btais) New Member Username: Btais Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2003 |
Kyle, I'm just having a good time, as I know you are (it seems impossible to get kicked off this forum). | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2004 |
"are you kidding me with those pics?? guy, I can take pictures of my TT doing the same shit in my backyard. Those prove nothing other than what was already stated. The FL has no more real "off-road" ability than a VW Bug. I would have kept those pics to myself if I were you." Hey, come on now... I sent them to be posted in the Gallery as a member, and the gallery area says no 'drive way pics'... NOT 'no pics without MUD and or Rocks in them' ! One FL owner even has pics of Leggo posted in the gallery - who is hypocritical now ? And I did scan thru other Disco gallery pics and there are a hell of alot of Discos just sitting on grass like the last pic of my FL. Yeah yeah... it's a Disco, I know. "Despite admitting that the Freelander has 'genuine off-road ability', it looses every other category. " If you know anything about the FL, the 1.8 is the de-tuned MG engine which was always underpowered for the FL. Still, it sold in Europe though (and still does), so too many people couldn't have been that put off by it. I would argue cost of ownership, as my Sister has owned a CRV since I bought my first FL and she has actually spent more money maintaining her car (regular services, etc.). There was also another independant video test conducted in the UK with a V6 FL, 3.7Liberty/RAV4 and CRV. It consisted of both on road and off road capability, and the FL won. But now I am just hitting my head up agains a brick wall, because Kyle doesn't really care, Gil thinks he can take his TT off-road to run with my FL, and it seems that hanging my car up on two alternate wheels (which puts the most load on all components of a vehicle) on loose dirt with road tyres just isn't good enough. Even if it is something that a RAV4 and CRV will never be able to do. "I love the big talk from down under.. "you just wait, ill post my pics and then youll believe!!". " Hey, Kyle asked what else I do so I simply stated if he was curious he will see more off-road pics of my FL ("I see probably 20 of those cute little things every day on the road to work in the concrete jungle and I see Zero when ever we go on a trip"). And don't worry your little soul, as I never said I was going to make you believe in the FL - that will be an impossibility with Kyle (and you it seems too now). And even though you and Kyle say you don't care about FL's, I can guarantee that if I post more pics or stories, you will be here ready and willing to bag them out. Sort of shows more inconsistency - you don't care but you do ! | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 179 Registered: 03-2003 |
As far as your lame pics go, Ho said they are tired of seeing the same old shit. So what part of that don't you get? Yes there are other lame photos in the gallery but perhaps they don't want anymore. "it seems that hanging my car up on two alternate wheels (which puts the most load on all components of a vehicle) on loose dirt with road tyres just isn't good enough." Ok, I think most of us get you are proud of your grass and "loose dirt" hill. The problem is you won't get off it and show us anything better. I was actually somewhat impressed by Gord's photos. He demonstrated how far he could take his FL before it got stuck. You said earlier "showing pics of a FL stuck is not really doing it much credit" You're right, it just gives Gord credit for actually pushing the FL to where it did get stuck. Yet you keep on with your stupid hill that a freakin VW bug made it up. You asked what FL pics would WOW. Why don't you start by taking a picture of you FL good and stuck. I'm not saying it will wow anyone but perhaps it would gain you some credibilty. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2004 |
This is now too funny... "As far as your lame pics go, Ho said they are tired of seeing the same old shit. So what part of that don't you get? Yes there are other lame photos in the gallery but perhaps they don't want anymore." Message to Kyle and Ho and anyone else out there running this site... you may as well say in the Membership joining area that you don't accept FL owners or their pictures. Or at least FL owners that express their individual opinions. "Ok, I think most of us get you are proud of your grass and "loose dirt" hill. The problem is you won't get off it and show us anything better." I actually did suggest that I would be posting more pics of my FL but then again I was ridiculed with this comment - "I love the big talk from down under.. "you just wait, ill post my pics and then youll believe!" I also have had a good look at alot of the Owner Gallery pics posted on this site, and I have to say that 75% of the pics don't 'WOW' me. But I am not being critical of the pics or the owners who posted them - it is great to see these proud LR owners out there taking pics of their vehicles off-road. It is a shame that I am being ridiculed for doing EXACTLY the same thing. "Some of the pictures posted are not proving the defense of Freelander offroad ability. " Would someone like to show me a picture of a CRV or RAV4 in a similar off-road situation to Gord, Ben or I (ie. successfully driving through deep mud or hanging alternate wheels up and still travelling forward uphill), and THEN I will shut up ! Anyone ??? | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 963 Registered: 02-2003 |
No, if that was true, this thread would have been gone long ago, and your account along with Bill's and some others would have been suspended. I probably would also have to suspend myself, since I have a Freelander, too. You are just not used to Kyle's "diplomatic" ways. It's not just limited to the Freelander section, he will rip anyone pretty hard when he think's it is necessary. Yet knowing him personally, I also know that if he came across a nyone broken down on the trail, he would be the first one to help the guy out, regardless of which vehicle the guy was driving. That being said, this thread has now drifted more into comparing off road capabilities of a Freelander vs. a Disco, which has little to do with the initial question asked. It is also an absurd comparison, because the two are completely different animals. On that I think we can all agree. I have one of each, (97 Disco and 02 Freelander) and there are major design differences between the two. Still, I can't comment on the Freelander's capabilities off road, because the only time mine was off pavement was at Boneville Speedway, and you can drive any two wheel drive vehicle on those saltflats without a problem. I also have no further plans to take the Freelander on any significant off road excursions, because it is not what I bought it for. It was purchased because I needed a second car for the wife, and it fit our requirements: - Right pricerange at the time - It's a Land Rover - It's NOT Japanese (Can't stand Japanese vehicles) - It has 4WD, ABS and traction control for bad weather - 4 doors, and sits low enough so my elderly mother in law can easily get in the back seat, since she occasionally rides with us. - Small enough to fit in my garage and other parking structures - Enough cargo room so two adults can go on a road trip (we don't have kids) - Excellent road manners and gas mileage while filling the other criteria while not having to pay 3 times as much for a Range Rover (Which I would love to have, but can't justify at this time) As far as the initial question of poor sales on the Freelander. I think we have answered that already. Poor or nonexistent marketing is to blame. If you can't make the buying public aware that the Freelander exist, how can you expect to sell any? This also comes back to the general public's perception that Land Rover are expensive luxury vehicles with a spotty reliability record at best. Whether that perception is based on reality or not is irrelevant, the perception is there. Ask any non-LR owner, and you will invariably hear that "Green Oval=$60,000" With that in mind, it is not surprising that most people looking for an SUV in the Freelander's class will end up with a Honda. - Axel | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 180 Registered: 03-2003 |
"Would someone like to show me a picture of a CRV or RAV4 in a similar off-road situation to Gord, Ben or I (ie. successfully driving through deep mud or hanging alternate wheels up and still travelling forward uphill), and THEN I will shut up ! Anyone ???" OK    Now let's not waste anymore electrons on this topic. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 733 Registered: 11-2002 |
oops............ "Blow me" | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ian, Tip of the hat... I wouldn't have expected even that much from a CR-V. I just hope all you FL haters don't think we should have bought CR-V instead of a Land Rover?  | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 734 Registered: 11-2002 |
That isnt what its about Bill , its about what I originally said. The other trucks in its class are just as capable and suseptable to the same breakage. As for longevity...... I guess we will see. Only going to know if someone really puts that little Darby to the task over a long period of time... "Blow me" | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 181 Registered: 03-2003 |
Just for the record, I'm not a Darby hater. | ||
| Bill Rogers (Dc_plasterer) Member Username: Dc_plasterer Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2003 |
As you have seen from folks who have responded to this thread, there are loads of pictures of Freelander owners enjoying their vehciles off-road, maybe not as hard-core as you may like to see, but off-road all the same. That may say as much about the owners as the vehicle. Or more long term, I think it will demonstrate that the Freelander is a much more durable rig than the Japanese "tin can's" in its class. Kyle, why don't you rent a CR-V and we'll see if is can keep up with a Freelander? But then I guess you'd have to pay for the extra insurance, huh? Its about filling a particular need, and the Freelander does that as well as the highly modified Disco's do - each has a different purpose. I'm sure this has a nitch market too, just not quite sure if it would fit into my lifestyle...  Each to his own, and I still have my eye on the DIII! | ||
| Alan Yim (Alan) Senior Member Username: Alan Post Number: 1076 Registered: 09-2002 |
I don't know what it's like in the US but it sounds similar to it here in Canada. Land Rover as a company does very poorly in the advertising/marketing area. You very rarely see paper advertisements and when you do it's in specialty magazines that a very small proportion of the population buys so no exposure to new non-traditional customers. Those who do buy these magazines already know of LR and what they stand for so it becomes an even harder sell to these folks to convince them that the FL is of the same lineage. You also see next to no LR TV ads. I can count on one hand all the times I've seen a LR commercial in the last 3 years and again, they were all on specialty stations, not mainstream. Regardless of whether it's a true LR or not, from a product and brand exposure perspective, LR isn't hitting the markets they want for this product. They seem to have stuck to their traditional media outlets but their aim of the FL isn't in those areas. I've spoken to people who have bought vehicles in this class and asked them if they ever even considered the FL and 99% of the time they say, "A what? Who makes that?" Then they hear the Land Rover name and the automatic reaction is that it's out of their price range, which in fairness it is. Vehicles in this class are all below $30,000 CDN while the FL is priced starting at $37k and going all the way up to $43k. That puts them in the next class vehicle already so when they look at the money they put out versus what they get back in terms of size, bells & whistles, fit and finish, hp, etc. the FL doesn't look as attractive anymore. If LR really wants to boost sales, they have to start broadening their marketing to areas that they have traditionally stayed away from which is basically mainstream markets. But is this what they want to do as a company with the other models that don't fit into this area or is that the direction that Ford has decided to take with the new generation LR's?? It looks that way from the looks of the 05 Disco. LR has built is image and heritage out of something that is no longer relevant in today's market and at the moment, it looks like they're not sure where to take the company. They seem to want to stick to what they've always done but the plain truth of the matter is that today's buyer is different and the qualities that made LR what it is, is no longer the primary concern now (present company exlcuded). I don't think this problem only applies to FL but their entire line up as they move forward. All their new vehicles will have to fit into the current and future market which is quite different from the past. | ||
| Bruno Tome (Bruno_tome) Member Username: Bruno_tome Post Number: 53 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Yet knowing him personally, I also know that if Kyle came across anyone broken down on the trail, he would be the first one to help the guy out, regardless of which vehicle the guy was driving." Confirming what I suspected! BT. | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2004 |
Ian, good work ! I was wondering who would find those pics first. So, no 'oops' from you Kyle... my question was a leading one. I just wanted to see who was really interested in finding a CRV that has been off-road rather than just claiming that the CRV can run with a FL. It is good to see some CRV owners out there having fun in their vehicles. As long as they don't stop!... You see if you have ever driven a CRV, you would know that the rear wheels dis-engage once stationary. Then they take over a second to re-engage once the computer sensors the front wheels losing traction. I have driven a CRV in both mud and soft sand, and the CRV becomes a lost cause in both instances. "Only going to know if someone really puts that little Darby to the task over a long period of time..." For information purposes only... running 4wd vehicles in soft sand puts extreme load on all drivetrain components (esp. with no low range), and electrical 4wd aids (ETC). My frist FL (1998 XEdi) practically lived at the beach and still does with my Uncle. It has experienced NO machanical faults or electrical faults (still has original clutch). And that is also living with the salt air 24/7. That has to say something about the FL's durability ? BTW - these pics are not supposed to 'Wow' you, but simply illustrate me using my XEdi for it's indended purpose.   Some might think they are lame, I don't really care. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Senior Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 492 Registered: 10-2002 |
Keep posting Andrew, I enjoy the levity! | ||
| Ian Kreidich (Ian95rrc) Member Username: Ian95rrc Post Number: 182 Registered: 03-2003 |
"I just wanted to see who was really interested in finding a CRV that has been off-road rather than just claiming that the CRV can run with a FL." Quite frankly I was only interested in you shutting the hell up. "Then they take over a second to re-engage once the computer sensors the front wheels losing traction." There is no computer. http://www.hondaaccordindia.com/crv/images/performance/4wd_system_pop.gif Exactly how many times do you need to be proven wrong before you stop talking out your ass? | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 31 Registered: 02-2004 |
Wow Ian... not only can you find pictures, but also can reveal actual facts about the vehicle. I'm impressed No, really... I am. Like I said, I have driven a CRV off road, and I knew how it engages... was just seeing if anyone else in the LR world actually knew too. BTW... if you think I am pulling this out of my ass, I can show you a pic of that too if you like - it's tight as *L* If you had driven the CRV you would know that the engagement of the rear wheels happens with a loud clunk that can also be felt through the whole car (is not a nice feeling). Of course by that time the front wheels have already dug themselves into the sand/mud. The system is no where near as smooth, fast or effective as the VCs. How many times have I actually been proven wrong about anything ? All the facts I have brought up about the FL and it's competitors have never been proven wrong. Please don't get me wrong Ian... I am not dredging you, as I know you are a FL fan. It is refreshing to find someone on this site who actually has some interest in the vehicles that compete with the FL. Until now, no one has said a word about the CRV on this thread. And if the CRV has something to do with the FLs poor sales, then it has everything to do with this Thread. I still cannot find a good off-road pic of a RAV4 ? | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 32 Registered: 02-2004 |
"Bottom line is that the DArby will NOT run with its brothers . Yet , all of its brothers can keep up with each other. That makes it a stepchild in my book...." Hey Kyle, while I was searching for a RAV-4 pictured off road, I came across these pics of a FL actually running with it's brothers. Sure, it's not me but thought you might be interested anyway... http://rovers.originalplaid.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Hot-Springs-Super-Lift -Park&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=2 http://www.texasrovers.org/dfw/images/8-10-03u.jpg | ||
| Andrew Clelland (08abc) New Member Username: 08abc Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2004 |
After reading back over this thread again, it really appears that most have not been reading my posts properly... If you did you would have noted that I have owned the FL brand and been associated with the FL brand longer than anyone who has posted here. And since we have a CRV in the family (for 6 years), I have also been associated with the CRV for longer than anyone here. I am also one of the few (in existance it seems) who has driven both these vehicles off road. Vehicles which are direct competitors and major influencing factors in their market niche (in the past and current). Instead people here have taken me for a fool, "talking out of my ass" as such. And some of these people have either never driven a FL or never driven a CRV (or both). Yet they beleive that their opinions towards the FL are credible ??? Please ! What is more hypocritical is that I have driven most of the LR product both on road and off, as well as other 4wds of varing makes/kinds, and I am given ZERO credibility just because I chose the FL that best suits MY needs. I have never bagged out anyone elses LR (or pics of it) on this thread. I am not spitefull like that. And, sure my pics may be considered lame by some hard-core Disco owners compared to where they take their trucks. At least I AM taking my FL off-road (unlike 90% of them so it seems), and I will continue to do so as far as I can go. I am doing my part marketing the LR brand the way it should be - and I am enjoying myself in the process. Why criticise that ? I am not stupid, or was born yesterday ! - I know this thread has been beaten to death. And until those who have been digging at me want to get out there and actually drive a RAV-4 and CRV off-road along with a FL, you really are starting to bore me with your empty, pittyfull responses. Especially Kyle with this "more you defend it the more your ignorance and inexperience shows itself.... I say again , either put up or shut up" - from someone who has had NO hands on experience with any soft-roader in the FL's class. Kyle, the first post you made should have been this... "I have had no hands on experience with the FL or it's competitors, and have never been in a sales enviroment with the FL so I have very little knowledge as to why the FL sales are poor in NA. I could assume that the lack of 4wd ability would have something to do with it compared to the other LR product, but I have never driven a FL on a trail or beach, so I have no relative level of comparison. Personally I think they suck, but that is all I will and can say on the topic at hand" Of course you were not the only one who should have posted something along those lines. However if you and the others had taken this approach, then I would have shut up long ago. So, from now on if someone wishes to take a dig at me or my FL, I will just be sitting here laughing. | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 562 Registered: 04-2003 |
More dirt road pics in defense of Darby. The Texas pic is impressive at first glimpse. Steep slope, loose, uneven terrain...Although an "after" picture of the Texas Darby on the hill, showing that it made it up the hill, would be nice. Give it up, man...it's over. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2421 Registered: 10-2001 |
"wars over....Wormer dropped the big one!" | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 563 Registered: 04-2003 |
Garrett, do you mean:  | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 972 Registered: 02-2003 |
No, Garrett don't speak for the tribe..... And the tribe isn't going to speak on this thread. - Axel | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2423 Registered: 10-2001 |
no i was just referring to the Animal House quote from John Belushi that's all. seemed appropriate. and damit Axel my name has too T's. least you don't call me Gary. Gary's a fat kids name. i hate fat kids. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 973 Registered: 02-2003 |
Actually Gary, the comment was meant more for Andy...... And this thread isn't over until the fat kid sings... - Axel | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 1621 Registered: 02-2003 |
or squeals like a pig in garrettss case rd | ||
| Andrew Maier (Newman) Senior Member Username: Newman Post Number: 564 Registered: 04-2003 |
Maybe it was more wishful thinking than anything else, Axel...plus I know as well as anyone that "the Tribe" is more Moderators + DWeb Lounge Members than any sort of democracy. And 90% of us wouldn't have it any other way...as Jamie said a while ago in a different thread, I'd rather be an Indian than a Chief! |
