| Author | Message | ||
     Jason Michaels (H2eater) Member Username: H2eater Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2003 |
Guys I sold the Range Rover and have found a Defender in Canada that I want to bring over. I know it's "grey" but I want to talk to anyone who has experience with re-titleing a Defender as a Series III. Please email me... jason@specialtytools.com | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2207 Registered: 02-2002 |
First step: Don't get on a BBS and tell people that you're doing something illegal.....  -L | ||
| Jason Michaels (H2eater) Member Username: H2eater Post Number: 80 Registered: 03-2003 |
Leslie: C'mon now... I just want to talk about it... I walk on wild side I guess compared to some people... Anyhow.... | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 287 Registered: 02-2002 |
illegally swapping titles and vins is walking on the wild side? im not sure thats what id call it.. | ||
| Jason Michaels (H2eater) Member Username: H2eater Post Number: 81 Registered: 03-2003 |
Gil, it's one of the more bland things i've checked into... Geesh, I was just curious about it... Screw it... | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 288 Registered: 02-2002 |
i hear that, and its not really all that uncommon, but why try to fanagle a grey market one when you can find them in the country legally titled? there are quite a few 85 and up defenders already within our borders. | ||
| _JC_ (_jc_) New Member Username: _jc_ Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2003 |
Unfortunatly that still doesn't make them totally legal. Anyone know what the real story is on a grey market vehicle in terms of legality. Seems like I'm seeing more and more all the time. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2213 Registered: 02-2002 |
Gray market items are items that were originally marketed in other countries, that have ended up being re-sold in your country. For example, the Nikon N70 was a camera available here, but the F70 was the version sold in Europe, Japan, etc. If you go to some of those infamous NYC camera shops, you can find F70s sitting on the shelf instead of N70s... In vehicles, it used to not be such a big deal to import non-US models. So, when the Range Rover debuted in 1970, if you had the money and wanted one, you could have bought it and shipped one over, long before they officially imported them via RRNA in 1987. What makes it different about vehicles, though, was at some point, maybe around 1985 or so, DOT decided to tighten down and got Customs and EPA involved, wanting to keep out unregulated cars... at that point, then you had to go through special importers. So, any non-US vehicle that was brought in legally before the laws clamped down is a gray-market vehicle, and is legal. Now, if you went and got a 1998 D110, shipped it to Panama, then drove up through Mexico back to the US, that is not a gray-market vehicle, but a black-market vehicle, and is illegal. It's much closer to being legal to build one out of off-the-shelf parts and register it as a "reconstructed vehicle" than it is to get a black market vehicle. Buying one, taking it apart and shipping the pieces, then reassembling, well.... it's something of a loophole. In some states, you'll not have a problem, whether it strictly legal or not; in other states, though, they'll bust you wide open for it. FWIW..... -L | ||
| Ron Johnson (Chauner) New Member Username: Chauner Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2003 |
Is that entirely true? I don't see why you cannot buy a vehicle overseas and bring it over here as long as you conform to U.S. specifications, emissions, bumpers, etc. Heck, you can even keep the right hand drive. As far as I know U.S. servicemen in Germany are still bringing home 80's 911's and it is quite common finding a Euro-spec BMW M whether it is a Z M, M3, M5 or a M coupe. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2223 Registered: 02-2002 |
Ron, Yes, it's true, and no, you can't. True, you can bring some, but, not just any vehicle, though.... There is an approved list of vehicles that can be federalized. These are vehicles, such as the 1993 Defender 110, where there was a US counterpart that was legally here. You can go and buy a '93 Defender 110 station wagon overseas, bring it into the US to a Registered Importer, and have them perform the conversion. That's completely legal. And expensive. !!! Let me emphasize here: YOU cannot convert it, you have to have a Registered Importer do the work for it to be legal. Porsches were imported throughout the 80's, so I'm sure that there are some that are on the list of importable vehicles. And, if there was a vehicle that was imported that wasn't on the list, such as the '95 Defender 90, then you could go through the petitioning process and get it added. Then, once here at port, the Registered Importer can go to work for you. Euro-spec, ones, though, are not legal. (I have seen many of a US-spec European vehicle have parts swapped to make it more like a Euro-spec... ie, using E-code headlights on a Disco, or a Tdi swap in a Defender.) You mention military, though..... This doesn't make it legal, but... I have several friends from when I was in the military who did this, and know of several who would still do it... Servicemen can load a vehicle onboard ship, and then roll it off onto base once back stateside at port. Then, you figure out a way to slap a tag on it, and off you go. The military doesn't check its own servicemen for legalities, not thoroughly... sometimes, sure, but not all the time. But, it is no more legal than trying to import a 2002 D110, you just cut the chances of being caught. -L | ||
| Ron Johnson (Chauner) New Member Username: Chauner Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2003 |
Leslie, That reminds me of when I was in the Marines. My 1st Sgt. found a Harley while in Kuwait during the 1st Gulf War..loaded it up in the back of a 5 ton and when the war was over, packed it into a big metal box and had it shipped home. Once he had it here he ran the VIN and found it was titled by the Kingdom of Kuwait. He of course swapped VIN's from a junk Harley and sold it for 10grand. | ||
| Roger Fastring (Fastring) Member Username: Fastring Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2003 |
Its ridiculous that a "free economy" eliminates an otherwise 'moral' transaction that the govt could tax, others could market with accessories and support. Urgh. I'm with Jason, although I am a never-arrested, pay alot of taxes and dont even cheat on those even though I really should, I'd also look into overseas/Canada for a rover or mog. Sounds like no one is speaking up on how to do it though. I've seen more than one Defender in adds that were registered as old Series trucks, I suppose if you legally had an old series title and one really dumn DMV person (no shortage there), its doable. | ||
| eric w siepmann (Cdn001) Member Username: Cdn001 Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2003 |
Roger, Read Leslie's first post. "Its ridiculous that a "free economy" eliminates an otherwise 'moral' transaction that the govt could tax, others could market with accessories and support" Economy: The system or range of economic activity in a country, region, or community The "free market system" has nothing to do with this. How is it ridiculous that the federal government in enforcing its own regulations? " although I am a never-arrested, pay alot of taxes and dont even cheat on those even though I really should..." Quit whining. We're all paying the same basic taxes. Why should you cheat on taxes? Do you consume less public services and resources than the rest of us? "I've seen more than one Defender in adds that were registered as old Series trucks, I suppose if you legally had an old series title and one really dumn DMV person (no shortage there), its doable." Sure it's possible to dupe the DMV, and obtain a fraudulent title. But why would you want to engage in fraud when you can just buy a legal defender to begin with? | ||
| Randy Black (Snuffer) New Member Username: Snuffer Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2004 |
Buy one legally and take your lumps like the rest of us or else drive a jeep! I don't want your grey market rigs watering down the value of my Defender. | ||
| Phillip Perkinson (Rover4x4) Senior Member Username: Rover4x4 Post Number: 644 Registered: 02-2003 |
no shit | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 156 Registered: 08-2003 |
Of course you could always do a range rover hybrid - defender 100 I kind of see the point about watering down the value of defenders - kind of like the mugs that bought grey market G-wagens for silly money - bet they are kicking themselves now Jeff | ||
| Jeff Mclaird (Granitedisco) Member Username: Granitedisco Post Number: 157 Registered: 08-2003 |
Or the other alternative is to get a rolled/totalled D90 and do the conversion to 110 - perfectly legal as far as I can tell. Jeff On the subject though - what is the difference if - a) I have a series II/III that needs a new chassis - so I buy a 110 (yep inch longer not withstanding) b) then I get into an accident and need to rebody it - Series panels were not available so I got defender panels instead c) The engine blew - and I got a good deal on a 300 TDi complete with transmission. Think you can see where I'm going with this - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. of course you could wait until the CKD is importable. | ||
| Victor (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 162 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jason, I think the concern about bringing the vehicle from Canada to the US is unwarranted, as long as it was sold new in Canada (or the US). Canadians can bring any US spec vehicle into Canada (check out http://www.riv.ca). I would suspect that NAFTA and "The AutoPact" might impact the NA manufactured vehicles, but I'm not sure if UK vehicles sold/purchased in the US would be impacted. I frequently hear about Americans poaching Defenders in Canada and bringing them down to the US, so I don't think it's that big of a deal. Victor | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2883 Registered: 02-2002 |
Victor, You're right, it happens a good bit. However, the first part you said is wrong: just because it was sold in Canada doesn't mean that it can be sold in the US. There in Canada, you can have 15-year-old vehicles brought over from the UK, if I'm correct. In the US, they have to be 25-years-old to be legal (well, easily, other than a '93 through an RI). FWIW...... -L | ||
| Victor (Vabiro) Member Username: Vabiro Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2003 |
Leslie, I thought the US and Canadian DoTs had rationalized the transport safety standards to allow that. Forgetting about the Defender for a moment, if we were talking about a Honda Accord, or Toyota Tercel, they have been built to the same specification so that the vehicle could be sold into the US or Canadian marketplace. In the case of the Defender, it was also sold in Canada during the same period as it was available in the US. I would think that LRNA would have created a NA spec vehicle, rather than a US or CDN spec, and then exported to where the order came from. You are right about the 15 year-old vehicles. Antique or Historic vehicles are those over 20 years in Canada. We have many mid to late '80s Defenders being imported. One of the guys in our club just imported one from Belize, where the British maintained a small military presence. Victor | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Dweb Lounge Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2884 Registered: 02-2002 |
Victor, You're right, in that a vehicle built for US-specs usually will meet Canadian specs, and vice-versa, although there are a few minor differences (ie, Canada requires daytime running lights, the US doesn't, most Canadian spec'd vehicles have a cold climate setup (imagine that, lol)....). And again, the NAS D110, or the NAS D90s are fine in either country. But as you just said, it's easy enough to get an 1988 110 into Canada, whereas that's not legal in the US. Hence the interest in bringing Canadian vehicles down to here.... -L |
