By Brett Barton (Brett) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:30 am: Edit

I have a question out of curiosity, really. I was wheeling with my brother and came down a trail that emptied onto a sand bar on a river. A highly modified D-90 came down the same trail a few moments later. I was out of the truck looking at the water and taking a short break. I looked over the D-90 and it was really nice. It was a soft top with a diesel conversion. It had 33" swampers and all of the other goodies (ARB lockers, snorkel, 4" lift, upgraded axles, etc.) I told him that I was turning around to head home and he said that the trail continues on the other side of the river. The river was damn near 5 feet deep at the shallowest point between the sand bar that we were on and the sand bar on the other side. My brother and I watched in amazement as he crossed the river. The water had to be up to the dashboard of that truck.

My question is this? How much water can a modified Rover take?

I am really sorry that I did not have my camera.

By David on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:36 am: Edit

Junkyard wars....make some flaots for your rig...

Just kidding, I have no idea, but when I read your post, all I could think was that you should build some pontoons for your rig...

By Ron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:48 am: Edit

Diesel you can pretty much submerge as deep as the air intake.

Ron

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 04:25 am: Edit

A 300tdi in the Disco must be soooooo nice..

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Stop when your head is under water

By Ron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 01:39 pm: Edit

That why you have a hand throttle dean

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:05 pm: Edit

I've done water to the dashboard (and higher) in a bone-stock RR. Not sure if the Disco is different.

By Brett Barton (Brett) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Perrone, was it gas or deisel? I imagine that my 95 disco would die long before then...

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

My truck is the 1991 3.9l gasoline model. I have made crossings that deep on about 10 occasions. I've only had a problem once and that was when water got in the distributor. Took some WD40 and about 30 minutes to get it running smoothly again. That particular trip had water pushing off the windshield, and got water into the HVAC.

Dashboard was sloshing!

-P

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Perrone,

Stock eh? How does the air get into your engine if you have water up to the windsheild?

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 05:27 pm: Edit

The bow wave in front of the radiator keeps water rushing up to the level of the air intake. If you get stuck, you've got to shut the motor off pronto, but as long as you are keeping momentum, it works fine.

Surprisingly, when I stopped on the other side of the water to spray the dizzy, the whole area by the ignition coil was quite dry. As was the intake manifold, and most of the engine. The front of the engine had gotten spray from the fan (which is how water got into the dizzy).

Ive got some pics of some of my deep water excursions if you're interested.

-P

By shooter mcgavin (Shootermcgavin) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 05:28 pm: Edit

Oh I love it when Perrone makes an appearance. Let the games begin... hehe

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Perrone,

Please, post up the pictures here. I still can't see how having water up to the windshield can keep an engine dry! That's one heck of a bow wave!

By marty amedeo (Marty) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Perrone

Post some pictures, I'm curious................

By Milan on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Well, yeah the bow wave creates a pocket of air under the hood. What's so unbelievable about that?
I would not do it as you never knwo what thelevel of water is under the hood but hey to each his own.

By Ron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:44 pm: Edit

http://www.spanishtrailrovers.com/Watercross2.jpg

I do see water on the hood. Admittedly it splashed up there but it is there.

Ron

By Ron on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:45 pm: Edit

PS Hi Marty. Hows it going? Any new dents? check out the cheap bastard sleeves to get that drag link strait.

Ron

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 06:53 pm: Edit

yeah, there's water up on the hood buy Perrone made it sound like the *static* water level was at the windsheild/dashboard line (which is what is sounds like that D90 barrelled through @ 5' deep). If that were really the case with Perrone, then the entire engine would be submerged and would therefore drown. Nice pic, though. We've all had water momentarily running over the hood and spashing off the windshield - it's the constant push through dashboard-deep water that ain't gonna happen for NAS Discos...

By michel on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:26 pm: Edit

You can do a lot with the proper bow wave and some tarp on the covering the front. For those who haven't seen it in action, the first picture show how much lower the water level is in the rear of the disco compared to the front. The second picture is basicaly the same spot but not moving. you can see the difference.

Michel

http://www.discoweb.org/mike/mike1.jpg

http://www.discoweb.org/mike/mike2.jpg

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:30 pm: Edit

I don't know how to post pics here, and I don't have a pic of the trip where I had water on the windshield, but this link shows me in static water that is about 34".

http://www.spanishtrailrovers.com/Past_Events/Perrone_deepest.jpg

This pic was not taken at the deepest part of the crossing, but even this pic shows the water at well above the headlights. At the deepest portion, the static water was cresting the hood. Not deep enough to get to the air vent, but over the front of the hood. This water crossing is about 40 yards long. There is another crossing on the same trail that is about 60-70 yards long and as deep as this picture almost the whole way.

And I sure as HELL wouldn't recommend this to a beginner!

-P

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Ron,

You also posted my watercross2.jpg link. You should also have a look at watercross1.jpg which shows the entire front end dunking underwater prior to that calm looking shot you posted!

-P

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:47 pm: Edit

http://www.spanishtrailrovers.com/Watercross1.jpg

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 07:58 pm: Edit

another cool shot, but I'm talking about a standing pool of water that is actually the depth equal to the distance from the ground to your windshield or dashboard. In water that deep, the "bow wave" really just becomes a "bow hump" in the water because you'll be sliding under the surface of the water if it's really that deep. And you won't be sliding long because it'll die. They make vehicles for water that deep - they're called boats. In the "deepest" link you posted above, Perrone, you can see that the front of the bow wave is up around the headlights, but the surrounding water is down around mid-door level - certainly not swirlin around the windshield or those side mirrors.

And Michel, you're right, you can do a lot if you ride along behind a proper bow wave (witness your shots & Perrone's). You can also momentarily dip into deep holes just as long as you can pop out before the water infiltrates the engine bay (Perrone's watercross1 picture). We've all had that "holy shit" moment when the hood goes under...

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Bluegill,

I'm not disputing what you are saying, all I am saying is that the "deepest" pic is not at the deepest part of that particular crossing, as a significant portion of that crossing had water that was at least 6" higher. Almost at side window height.

In the deepest crossing I have been done (carwash in the Osceola Natl. Forest) the STANDING water in the middle put water OVER the hood and into the windshield. Mind you, its only that deep for a few seconds, but DAMN, when you start hearing water get into the dashboard from the air intake on the hood, particularly at 1 AM, and the windshield starts fogging up, its DAMN sobering!

As I said earlier, this kind of thing is not recommended and I don't think I'd do that crossing again without preparing better for it. You are exactly correct in your "bow hump" description. Anyone crossing water that deep for any distance is looking for trouble.

The original poster asked how deep can you go, I think the pics I posted here are representative of a stock LR and its wading ability. Any deeper and you do so at great peril to your engine, interior, computer, electronics, and peace of mind!

-P

By marty amedeo (Marty) on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Ron

Got a new dent on the Halloween Extreme event, don't know if you saw it. It's on the front page of the DELRC web site. Took the front fender off when I got home a straightened it back out, looks like new again. That's whats great about aluminium, it works as easy as it dents.

I'll never fix that drag link, it's bent to the right shape to clear obstacles now, besides, that is a heavy duty link. It's been like that for over a year now. That's one of those "HD unbendable" units from Fabitron.

Ask Dom to send us some videos to put up on the web site.

Marty

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 04:32 am: Edit

I've had water all over my ROOF, several times. Every time it rains.

Perrone, I can't get that Watercross1.jpg to load. Can you post it up here. Use \i m a g e{caption} without the spaces, and it will prompt you for the photos after you post.

Dean

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:10 am: Edit

Damn, Perrone - even though it's water, you're playin with fire in my opinion....hehehe

here's that watercross1 pic

By Simon on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:26 am: Edit

like this?

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

is that a ford aerostar?

By Simon on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

or like this?


all theses pics are from
www.RUTAS4wd.com.ve

ohh... I miss home... 80(


Simon

By Simon on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:32 am: Edit

you want more? real water crossings?

here...

again from RUTAS..



Simon

By Brett Barton (Brett) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:36 am: Edit

The water that the D-90 went through was chest deep to wade in. This Defender, which granted had a nice lift on it was pushing water with the windshield.

Nice truck, but I would not want to be the second owner...

Simon, what is that in the picture you just posted?

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:37 am: Edit

That CT Disco pic is great. If your hood dives under like that, then you're no longer pushing the water in front of you and creating that safe air pocket for the engine...but that CT snorkel is nice & high, and the diesel doesn't care about the water...

By simon on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:42 am: Edit

remember blue it's all about the driver...or the BALLS of the driver.. hehehehehe....

By simon on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:49 am: Edit

those are all land cruisers... Vzla 4x4 owners have toyos before anything else..

it used to be RR's but they went bankrupt in early 80's and toyo took over.. now it's coming back again..

CT pic... sorry I was trying to post a different one. all this numbers cofused me...

here it is..



Simon

By Joshua Bova (Jbova) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

watercross1.jpg

By Joshua Bova (Jbova) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:52 am: Edit

I should refresh before posting.

Sorry about that.

-josh

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:55 am: Edit

simon, the dude with the big (wet) balls doesn't appear to be making much forward progress...

some good pics on that site.

By PerroneFord on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 05:59 am: Edit

Believe me when I tell you, that Watercross 1 picture was NOT what I wanted to be doing. I was out on a solo scout with a friend in the club. Stopped at the top of a hill in deep sand. I had no ground anchor and no winch of any kind at the time (I was new to this stuff then).

Walked down to the water and said "This is too deep, we'll scout elsewhere". Then went back to the truck and couldn't get back up the 20 yards to the top of the hill. We were alone, with no gear, no CB, and no cell phone. And we had no idea what was on the other side of that creek either!

It all turned out ok, but I was not ABOUT to get stuck in that water! I had it in 2-low range with my foot on the damn floor! The truck is better prepared now, and I have done 50+ water crossings so I feel much more comfortable. I wouldn't go across water in the same way I did it here EVER again. It is NOT safe.

Some of these other pics are cool, but they look like diesels in some cases and at least one has a snorkel. Are any of those pics from stock trucks?

-P

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 06:00 am: Edit

and you're right that wasn't a CT Disco back there, it's a toyota...

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 12:04 pm: Edit

All nice pix, sure 'nuff.

The bottom line is you can go in until you lose spark or air.

A disti 3.9 will wash out before a 4.0 GEMS, snorkel or not, and ANY oil burner will run 100% submerged if it can get combustion air.

IMO, a snorkel on a petrol Disco is a waste of time and boarders on entering the gates of poseur-ville.

keith
discosaurus
said that

By PerroneFord on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Keith,

Regarding the snorkel being a waste, do you mean just for water? There seems to be some benefit to it in dusty condition or do you disagree?

-P

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 12:54 pm: Edit

it is a poseur item if you only use it for looks..
but if you do your homework it is very good in helping you not to hydrolock..

diesel would be a lot better ... but that aint an option here in USA so..

we do what we can here..

Simon

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 01:00 pm: Edit

which brings me back to my original point:
"it's the constant push through dashboard-deep water that ain't gonna happen for NAS Discos..."

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 01:10 pm: Edit

I don't think a snorkel on a gas disco is a waste of time at all. It does increase your odds of not stalling when you do a watercrossing, and it does help some in dusty conditions.

That all being said, I am with Perrone on this one. Allthough the water in the picture of him is not that deep, it's deep enough to do some damage if you get stuck in there. Also as those who have wheeled with me know, I'm not a big fan of watercrossings to begin with.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Blue my NAS Disco was kept for some time by a rock or something holding my trac rod...so I was standing in there pulling back and forward

the water was over the hood and pouring in the cab

the bad thing is that they took pics going in and going out..

in one time my water bottles were floating inside the truck...

but i belive the snorkel did it's job.
and so the ARB locker by pulling me out of my missery.

SImon

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 02:12 pm: Edit

have you waterproofed your GEM bullshit? My 96 NAS POS has stalled at the frickin carwash, but it's never stalled on water crossings that had water foaming up over the hood (but actual depth was only about top-of-tire)...

I got stuck in some deep, muddy water once and flooded the cabin, so I'm not a big fan of water crossings anymore.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I thought I had done a good job by making the disco water tight up to the windows... that was not the case.. hehehehe

the rest is just full of grease...

there is a cable going into the engine on the driver's side under the exaust manifolds and before the oil pan.. as I said before I don't know shit about engines but the mechanic at roversland told me to grease that modafucking shit too and I did so.. I have never stalled in water or the car wash.

i'm still trying to do a better job on the doors

the back is very tight ... not a lot of people know this but there is a VENT a FUCKING HUGE VENT at the back of the disco passenger side I belive it is to take pressure when the AC is on.. well..
mine is closed with all I found.. that piece of shit is just asking to suck gallons of water and the windows aren't that tight so I said fuck with the pressure.

my goal is to tight everything up to the te windows... not an easy task.


Simon

By Brett Barton (Brett) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 03:13 pm: Edit

I am a huge fan of diesel power. I had a Ford F-350 Powerstroke for a few years and loved it. Tons of power, great fuel economy, and fairly simple maintenance. It would idle for hours in the hot summer sun and never get hot. It also would get 20+ MPG on the highway.

Has anyone ever considered putting something like that in a Disco?

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit

300 tdi is supossed to be easy swap.
I just don't have the pesos to do it.

80(

Simon
LRNA are a bunch of brainless mofos...

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 03:26 pm: Edit

""but if you do your homework it is very good in helping you not to hydrolock..""

and

""I don't think a snorkel on a gas disco is a waste of time at all. It does increase your odds of not stalling when you do a watercrossing, and it does help some in dusty conditions.""

And it does all this anti-H20 magic how ? IMO, if your engine compartment is so deep in water that the intake is under, you're electrics are soaked and you're not running - Oh, OK, I guess that WOULD help from Simons water-down-the-intakes point of veiw, but fact is, you won't be running and it'll be water-down-the-exhaust instead.

As far as helping in the dust, I'd think one would have a hard time proving that - if I can't see out the windscreen when following somebody, there's more then enough dirt 12" higher to get sucked into that raised air intake.

And, I still think a snorkel on a petrol vehicle of ANY kind is poseur-rific. More so when you don't have the matching exhaust periscope.

So there - phfffft

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 04:21 pm: Edit

I disagree. As you probably know, once a few drops of water gets by your air filter and hits your the screen in your maf, the engine shuts itself off. You don't have to be in very deep water for this to happen, it actually happened to me here:

http://www.discoweb.org/pa/img011.jpg

It's not as deep as it looks, not deep enough to soak the engine, but deep enough to cause some damage if your engine stalls. A snorkel will increase your odds of making it in this type of situation.

Yeah, I agree that you need to do more than add a snorkel if you want to cross water that reaches the windshield, but that was not what I was talking about.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Axel,

Is that in the barrens?

Dean

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

hehehe..

when electrics are kept away from water by grease they won't short for longer (not for ever), then your engine is happy and breathing actual air and will keep the water out of the exaust.. and make nice little bubbles... But I respect your view of the pouseristic look of the snorkel... in a way I am all for that.

for the dust.... humm.. I think it is bullshit

80)


Simon the pouser....

By Nathan Hindman on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 06:55 pm: Edit

This pic was taken just as I was going into the deep part.... Water was hitting the first 6" of the windshield and side windows, all with a petrol engine. Did the snorkel help? Dunno, but it sure as hell didn't hurt things.

As to the functionality of a snorkel in dusty conditions, most of the time a snorkel will make a minimal difference, but in places with extreme dust like Moab (I'm still finding pockets of red dust from this fall)... a snorkel can make a big difference in the cleanliness of your air filter.

By Kyle on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Keith , you are wrong here buddy,,,lol,,,the snorkel does indeed increase your chances big time.The distributor should have some water proofing done but after that the rest of the electronics are sealed good enough to take a crossing. Maybe not a soaking but a quick crossing wont be a problem..

Kyle

By Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 08:37 pm: Edit

LEts go swimming

By John Lee on Thursday, November 29, 2001 - 10:24 pm: Edit

"As far as helping in the dust, I'd think one would have a hard time proving that - if I can't see out the windscreen when following somebody, there's more then enough dirt 12" higher to get sucked into that raised air intake."

I have to disagree. I have seen a tremendous difference in my air filter after fitting the snorkel. The difference is huge, much more than I thought it would be. After multiple runs on dusty trails (and basically all of the trails around in Southern California are dusty), my air filter still doesn't require cleaning whereas before it did. It was not unusual to have to clean my air filter even after one run if it was especially dusty. With the snorkel on, it's totally different. I would estimate that the dust collected on the air filter is at least half of the dust it would collect without a snorkel fitted, and probably much less than that.

And as to the argument that a snorkel on a petrol-engine vehicle is a waste, I must also disagree. While the electrics on a petrol engine are not waterproof and will short in deep crossings, the snorkel will at least prevent your engine from ingesting water and possibly resulting in a hydrolocked engine. A snorkel is cheap insurance against that.

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 12:00 am: Edit

A couple questions with respect to wading / snorkling:

• Is there enough pressure in the exhaust to keep the water from doing a back-flow thing? I've seen mil-spec hummers with the exhaust to roof-height for this reason.

• Are the British D90 Wolf editions all 300Tdi or are there V8i as well. These are the "amphibious" units used by SAS right?

• Any opinions on the forward facing ARB compared to the more protected Mantec (e.g. Nathan's) when it comes to dust - his looks like it pulls air from the back or is that a vortec-type system?

Cheers,

Erik

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 08:05 am: Edit

Dean:

Yes, that picture was taken in the Barrens.

By Simon E. Arenas (Simon) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 09:28 am: Edit

If you have way too much dust face the ARB backwards.. in moab is not like you are going 90MPH...

now for HWY speed... I like it Forward, my airbox collects rare insect specimen !!!!

Simon.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:26 am: Edit

Axel:

Can you remember where?

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:30 am: Edit

I was watching the dust levels last time in the barrens when following Carl. I was maybe 5 cars length behind. There was about a 2 foot layer of dust where I was, and the snorkel was doing wonders in that case. Of course, some dust gets up there, but it was MUCH less than normal intake height. Just my $0.02

Of course, for Larry and Kent up near the back, they were pretty much driving through the dust storm blind, so not much difference!

By Kyle on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:44 am: Edit

Its a little road the locals call "Engine block". It ate my front plate some time ago...


Kyle

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:45 am: Edit

"Can you remember where?"

Yes.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:53 am: Edit

Ok Axel,

What's the big secret? Private land? Closed road? Or was it the comment about jpegs being better then RMs?

Kyle - there are engine blocks in the rivers?

By Kyle on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:00 am: Edit

If you are going to take a group into there Dean Ax and I may want to observe,,,,lol And yes , there is some burried treasure here and there...

Kyle

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:03 am: Edit

Is that the spot where you have to drive into the middle of the pond, stop - turn right around a lump of concrete and then hope you get through the under water hole on the other side?

If so - that's always an interesting one!

By Kyle on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:12 am: Edit

There is something like that at the beginning of it yes. The hole in the pic that Ax was going through is about 100 yards long and atleast that deep the whole way...

Kyle

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:34 am: Edit

Its not around Toms River is it?

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:41 am: Edit

Dean:

I simply replied to your message, you only asked if I remember where the spot is, which I do....

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Axel:

Ok, where is it?

If its near Wharton State Forrest, I'm heading there this Sunday, that's why I was asking. Of course, at this rate, I might not have the answer by then

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 02:51 pm: Edit

You will be in a different area on Sunday, as it is not part of the State Forest. If you are not careful, you may end up on private, patrolled land. That's the reason for not posting the excact location publicly.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Axel and co,

Are you ever down in the barrens nowadays? I'm sure you could gather quite a group if you planned a trip, coz your photos of the place are always pretty cool. Gettin the ol' camp fire going after dark, sausages and pepsi, you know, might be a social thing. I can throw together a pretty darned good hotdog, such are my culinary skills But a few other members of the PBAS do know a thing or two about good eatin, and they'ed all be there

Just an idea, that's all.

Dean

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Haven't been down there in a while, and I had a previous commitment for tomorrow. Just got out of that though, so I'll be joining you. I'll meet up with you at Molly Pitcher tomorrow at 9am