By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 04:37 pm: Edit

After you comment on the SG exhaust tip post, I was checking out your site.

Your support of REI is very strange and upsetting. I guess you do not like taking your Rover off road!

Perhaps you didn't know that REI is a very large contributor to the Sierra Club.
http://www.sierraclub.org/benefactors/rei.asp

In my option , there is not a more dangerous group of eco crazy's than the Sierra Club! The Sierra club has done more to hurt the ability for the public to have access to public lands than all other Tree hugging groups combined.

Why do you support such a conflict of interest?????????

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Maybe he likes walking to those remote fishing areas. Hope you pack lite..

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 11:07 am: Edit

I agree the Sierra Club does not have a terrific agenda, but then again I do not support them directly.

Based on the logic from the first post, I have a question?

If you pay taxes, does that mean you support the myriad of programs the government purports to benefit you? I will bet you don't. If you don't then explain to me how you are not paying taxes and we will all jump on board of your bandwagon.

Granted that question is a little out there....

Also based on the logic from the earlier posts, I have another question.

Where do you buy your gas, groceries, and all the other necessities of life? Do you know the contribution history of those retailers? I bet you would be suprised to see who they are giving there money to, and those organizations could be much more dangerous than the Sierra Club.

If you would have looked at my site, wheeling gets me where I am going, but not always. The Hudson Bay Expedition next year will entail hundreds of miles of paddling and hiking.

I am also a very active member of Trout Unlimited. Does that cause any conflict for you?

Many of the groups I am associated with are based on the idea that some, not always all, of the efforts they support, support the different things I do. I don't always agree with there decision making, but I don't believe everyone will agree with me either.

If you own a Disco, have you fallen into the trap of buying any Camel Trophy items. Do I need to explain who that benefits?

I am glad you looked at the site, I am also glad you have an opinion to share. I just disagree with the conclusions you have come to.

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By Perrone Ford on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 11:45 am: Edit

But paying taxes is required by law. Shopping at REI is not. To each his own though.

-P

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Yes John, I pay my Taxes and I vote to keep my government headed in the "right" direction. Sure, I do not always agree with what there doing and I have been active it letting my elected officials know my mind.


You disagree with the conclusions?

Looks like fact to me. Your site supports REI> REI helps support the sierra club> the sierra club has done much harm in removing the publics ability to use 4x4 truck offroad on public lands.

If you disagree read on:
http://www.oceanodunes.org/index.asp

"Where do you buy your gas, groceries, and all the other necessities of life? Do you know the contribution history of those retailers? I bet you would be surprised to see who they are giving there money to, and those organizations could be much more dangerous than the Sierra Club."

There are many other choices better than REI when it comes to getting your outdoor needs.

How about a link to:
http://www.cabelas.com/

I haven't found any dirt on Cabelas, do you have any?

Sorry No Camel Trophy stuff on my rig.

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Cabelas is a good company, as are my other affiliates, but Cabelas does not offer an affiliate program that helps me pay my bills.

I would love to become a part of Cabelas, but that is not currently possible.

I am open to suggestions, because I do not know everything that is possible in this world we live in, but I made the choice to affiliate myself with REI because they sell a good product at a good price and I can earn income from the promotion and sale of their products.

Thanks for the opinion.

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Ahhh , so its all about selling out.... I got it.... DO you have any idea how bad that sounds Kruger?


Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:34 pm: Edit

i support you on this one john, i enjoy the outdoors on foot as well as in the rover.

over the years i've spent my fair share at REI and i am glad they spread there wealth to various orginizations.

being a member of REI i also get to vote on who is in charge of divving up the loot that is collected. if the sierra club want to shut down offroading then maybe i should see what they have to say, i personnaly think there are plenty of places that should remain offlimits to motorized vehicles. so i cant say i'm always against it.

if it came down to no more offroading or not more wilderness. i'd say fuck offroading.

the entire reason i got into this sport was so i could drive to far away places, get out and walk further.

as long as we are passing out opinions,
rob davison

By John Cinquegrana (John_C) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:36 pm: Edit

" ...and I can earn income from the promotion and sale of their products."

But at what cost? How about getting financial support from companies like Warn, ARB, RTE, RN, AB, BP, EE......

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:52 pm: Edit

I have been an REI customer for awhile. I use their products and in doing so I outfit my clients with the same gear, many of my clients enjoy the use of the equipement and many purchase similar items to use on their own. Now they have an outlet to do so through my website, big deal. Does REI make or sell inferior products? If so, then I would consider changing the vendors I use. Otherwise, I look for products that can stand up to my abuse. If you have some information on the inferiority of the products, please let me know.

I am always looking to improve, hell, that is why I visit this site.

The same is true for all of my affiliates, I use the products, they survive my abuse, so I recommend them to clients.

A little side question, just to stir the pot a little.

Kyle, are you employed by a compnay that always does what you think is best? Or does it purchase or supply companies you believe in? If not, should we not consider your employment 'selling out', so to speak.

yes, some days I like to stir the pot a little, and the board has been relatively quiet lately.......flame on

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Think about that for a second Kruger ? This website is an LLC the same as your little venture there..Is the answer to that question obvious now ? Do we appear to have sold out to anyone ?

Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit

kyle, i'm not following you.. seems he is asking if your 9-5 jobs is in line with your views. if not you should quit and get a job that is inline with your views.

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Kyle,

A two line response, I am dissappointed.

All kidding aside...

I was not talking about this LLC, but if this site is your main source of income, then I commend you. Yet, I don't think this site and mine have the same goals or purpose.

and yes, I was just trying to elicite a long winded response, and you didn't bite.

As I said, I use the products, they stand up to my abuse, I recommend them to my clients.

and Rob, I agree with you. If I had to choose offroading vs wilderness. I choose wilderness.

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Back when I was single and solvent, I spent most of my cash at REI on climbing gear, camping gear, bike stuff, etc...my dividend check could actually be used to purchase something other than a six-pack of environmentally-friendly beer with no preservatives or artificial flavorings or colorings. Then they seemed to get a little too heavy into the "modern hippy with a stylish fleece pullover, birkenstocks, and Sierra Club tattoo" mentality. I'm all for the philosophy of Sierra & similar "clubs" but I don't always agree with the execution. REI seems to be a little too eco-happy just 'cause it's cool. Sierra club passed that point loooong ago. REI name brand gear is top notch, though...

I really like Rob's quote: "the entire reason i got into this sport was so i could drive to far away places, get out and walk further."

Also, no matter how you look at it or justify it, selling out is selling out. Even if it's a necessary evil, it still burns 'cause it sucks.

...my Monday morning opinion...no offense to anyone with a Sierra Club tatoo.

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Kruger and Rob , I didnt bite on his question because it was a piss poor question. Somethings we can control , some we cant. He is in the same control there as we are of this site.. We have specifically avoided selling out here and we have the control to do that...If REI payed us to put up a link on this site wouldnt we then be selling out?

Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I'm in w/ Blue on this one....

Geology's always had this duality-thing going, sitting on the fence.

On one hand, we're studying nature, we're environmentalists, trying to protect ourselves and everything else. At the same time, though, there's no use in having a lot of ore sitting in the ground... if we can put it to use, but do it AND protect the environment at the same time, why not?

I don't agree with Sierra' extremism.... everything in moderation.... but I recall from Econ 101 some of Smith's ideas... essentially, do what is best for you, and it'll be what's best for the economy. Yeah, I want to buy American where I can, but I'm not going to buy a crappy American truck just because it's American if I find that this leaking British truck suits my purposes better.... If REI sells a product that you can use, at a better price than anyone else, then buy it from them if you want. If you don't want to buy from them for whatever reason, and can afford to buy it from their competitor, then do so.

It will all come out in the wash....

-L

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

John said"I agree with you. If I had to choose offroading vs wilderness. I choose wilderness."

Fine but there trying to close the wilderness to all as well!

The Sierra Club is asking for COMPLETE closure to campers, motor vehicles, equestrian, bicyclists and pedestrian use Oceano Dunes. It's a state park!

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Kyle, you are partially correct. Some things we can control, the rest just does not matter...

I can control my need for a 9-5 job,(right now it is more like 7-6) by working for my employer as hard as I can, or by taking my love for the outdoors one step further.

I choose to take it one step further. So, I promote products I believe in, and that is all there is to it!

When my life and the lives of my clients depend on the gear, then I feel I should be able to put some of my faith into the business that creates the products I am using. Granted REI and many other companies hit the 'eco-friendly' craze a little hard, but as times change and business learn lessons, they change their focus. Just as I will, you will, and many other will...

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By gp (Garrett) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 01:37 pm: Edit

i agree with most of what you are all saying. even rob!!! i don't go to the store and read up on a specific company to see if their products use kittens to test on or whether their executives have pet pandas chained up in their backyards. my company and myself belong to many organizations and clubs. sierra club being one of them. i may not always agree with what they do and say, but that does not mean i should not support a majority (or minority) of their causes and what they are ultimately trying to do. sometimes i agree with the hippy dippy earth bisuits and sometimes i don't. none of us always have all the facts and trying to find all of them is sometimes futile. maybe i don't dig deep enough to find out more about the issues, but i have my opinions and am willing to support people and organizations that fit the profile that best outline where i am coming from. i shop/buy at REI, Patagonia, Mt. Hardwear and so on. not because its cool or all the hot chicks on campus dig it. i use what i buy and if a company happens to support other organizations and people that i would then more power to them. most of this shit is all rediculously overpriced anyhow. and of those 3 REI is the more reasonable and their involvement with organizations that habitually are trying to preserve 'nature', then i see no reason not to be a part of that. but then there are times when i just want to drag some dread locked, stanky, freak show, cruncher and beat them with a 5 cell mag lite. oops. sorry.

peace

By William Turner (Wturner) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Hey Robert Mann (Oldscout)

Boooo Hooo Hoooo.


Life really isn't that big of a deal dude!

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I like my birkenstocks . . . a lot . . . I even wear them in winter

Other than that I am bad for the envirment. Our basement was an EPA superfund site. My trucks leak oil everywhere.

All and all though I have minimal impact.

So what I kill some plants. Much worse things happen than that.

If they would sort of figure out on a cost benefit basis the biggest way to help (stop foresting in certain areas where it is low yield) we (offroaders) could tear up all the land we wanted and have no issues

But that is to practical for the tree huggers

Ron

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Hey Will Turner enjoy your backyard it's all they will leave ya.

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Mr. Turner I guess you live under a rock and enjoy your mall crawler!


Start reading:
http://www.sharetrails.org/
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_82.html
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_51.html
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_13.html
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_98.html
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_95.html
http://www.off-road.com/press_releases/press_release_126.html
http://www.sharetrails.org/story3.htm
http://roadless.fs.fed.us/
http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/news/projects/environment/index02.html

http://www.sharetrails.org/roadless/Statesman.htm

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Robert , I dont think most realize that it isnt moderation that these freaks preach.. There is no gray area,,,the places are open and they want them closed...

Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Bingo, Kyle....

MODERATION


I realize that most of Sierra Club preaches such, and so I don't send 'em fundage. But, if I buy a Land Rover, and the salesman uses a bit of her salary to buy groceries, and then that supermarket's manager buys some produce from a farmer, and that farmer spends a couple of dollars he made at his local gas station, and the clerk at the gas station sends a buck to Sierra Club as a donation for a tax write-off... and I gonna not buy the Rover in the first place??

-L

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:58 pm: Edit

I think Krugers situation is a little different then that Les. I also think he runs more in Canada then the US and what the Sierra club closes wont affect him as much... Thats just my opinion of course..

kyle

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 02:59 pm: Edit

FWIW (nothing...), I stopped shopping at REI several years ago when I noticed the increasing connection between them and the Sierra Club. I think it was the election of a notorious eco-nazi, who's name I can't recall, to their board, that put me over the top.

There are other discount outdoor gear suppliers that have better prices then REI and don't seem to be as overtly 'green'. They are the ones who get MY biz. I also try to explain my position to others in my family and relative group if I notice they shop REI. If they wish to continue, that's their choice. But, none of my disposable cash is going to support an organization that directly or indirectly supports restrictions on my outdoor travels.

I guess I learned all this from my many years as a NRA member and 2nd amendment supporter.

keith
discosaurus

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:01 pm: Edit

LOL, Kyle....


Keith,
Hmmm......

Ya know, I'm thinkin', and....

I've gotten REI catalogs for years, but I can't think of one thing that I've actually bought from them, I usually bought elsewhere....


-L

Life NRA Member!

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Is serria trading post green or no.

Thats where I buy my stuff. Pretty much the best prices as they deal mainly in closeout etc.

Got my vasques pinacle boots for 50% off or so.

Good mud boots, but somehow I always wear my birks and I get crap about it from the other people with me

Ron

By William Turner (Wturner) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Hey Mr. Robert Mann (Oldscout),

I am not supporting any idea of closing the trails, it just seems a bit anal to be bitching about simply shopping at REI. So I confess, I bought a damn comfortable folding chair from REI for $35. I bet that the $5 profit really made a big difference in the budget of the lobbying Sierra Club. So am I going to also be cast to anti-4x4 HELL??

You seem pretty passionate about the idea, so focus your efforts on working against it rather than scathing REI shoppers, just because we don't do a complete research on the organisation to see what they do with there profits.

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Is serria trading post green or no.


That's the outfit that gets most of MY outdoor dollars. They may not have fancy stores like REI but they have brand name stuff, cheap.

Actually, their store in Cheyenne is pretty nice !

By gp (Garrett) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:13 pm: Edit

good place for sure Ron. ever in Cheyenne stop in their store. pretty cool. they have a little disclaimer in their catalog about their environmental commitment.......just about recycling and that happy stuff. no political agenda for them, so it seems. and if you get a duplicate catalog to your address they send you a $1 credit for every extra copy they send you.

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Good,
I will continue to purchase from them

Ron

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Les, now that is funny....

I run mostly in Canada, and have permits, licenses and permissions to do so. There are large areas of Canada that you just cannot go to, and not because you are not allowed to, it is just impassable terrain.

Also, in the Midwest(Wi, Mn, Mi) there is not a great deal of public access for OHV that is not already being used by snowmobiles or ATVs. Much of where I go is private, or done so with permission.

I still like REI gear, and a lot of other good stuff that is out there.

John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:21 pm: Edit

what about rei-outlet.com , ron you may be missing out on some good deals

kyle, there are plenty of moderates out there. just because YOU dont hear from them doesn't mean they arent there, hell i'd say the majority of tree huggers are modeates, like me.

not a member of sierra club or NRA.

i'll speak for myself thank you

rd

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Ok,

But everytime I buy from REI I will cut down a tree. That will even out the situation

Ron

By John Kruger on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Now, I see no issues with this, but this is from the Sierra Trading post web site (a decent site):

"Sierra Trading Post History
by Keith Richardson, Founder
People always seem to be interested in how I got the idea for Sierra Trading Post. They are usually surprised when I tell them, it really wasn't my idea at all.

Life Changing event: At 29, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. Instantly, I received the Bible's promise of eternal life and the promise that God would guide me in the major decisions of life. God has a perfect plan for our lives if we allow Him to reveal it."

Everyone has a background, beliefs and agendas. Some are just better at getting their message across than others.


John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By gp (Garrett) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:30 pm: Edit

maybe just limb it up a little ron. don't take the whole tree. or just pee on a sapling. should stunt its growth a little.

i use the rei outlet as well. good one. campmor is decent too. just hard to tell what some of their stuff is with that b/w catalog. www.livetoplay.com is a great site. sorta an auction for for sporting goods stuff.

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:52 pm: Edit

just for that ron i'm planting 2 every time i buy some thing.

garrett, i haven't seen this auction site before.

hope it's good !

rd

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Ok,

God or tree huggers

what happened to good old corporate profiteering . . . wait I usually shop at Wal-Mart for camp stuff and such . . . ahhh I feel better already

Ron

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:08 pm: Edit

You know what the worst thing about REI is? It's the damn fact that you pay for the membership, and then you get a dividend back on what you spend, but all the good (and really cheaply-priced) shit is up for grabs at their periodic fire sales, and fire sale shit does not qualify towards your dividend amount. I found myself thinking, "Hmmmm...this climbing rope is 99.9% off during this fire sale, but it doesn't qualify towards my dividend, so I'll just wait and buy it with the normal 110% mark-up on it so I can get $0.15 back on the purchase 11 months from now."

The best thing about REI is the customer satisfaction warranty on their item if you're a member. I returned a pair of climbing shoes after using them for a whole summer - the heat out here had melted the soles off. They gave me a brand new pair with no questions asked. Of course, you have to be a member to get the "no questions asked" treatment, and if you're a member then you get caught in the conundrum described above... Besides, their climbing wall is ALWAYS closed...I was kicked out of one of their AZ stores for climbing the closed wall - posuers!

P.S. about the Sierra Club...if all the hardcore believers truely believed what they preach, then they'd all just kill themselves.

Sincerely,
PC Blue & Teva man

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Where can I get birks cheap?

The best I can do is $70 for Milano in real leather

Ron

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Rob , we are talking about the Sierra club and REI and Kruger being an enthusiast and the conflict there in. Yes , I have no doubts there are some moderate level headed people out there . I havnt seen anything from the Sierra club thatwould suggest they have any amongst them. They talk about slashing tires on trucks and al that good stuff. How would you feel if you drove out to BFE , parked your rover for a hike , came back and the futuras were all slashed and you were sitting on rims ? THis is the shit you are dealing with when dealing with them... Dont forget that..

Kyle

By Ron on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Humm,

"if all the hardcore believers truely
believed what they preach, then they'd all just kill themselves."

"Slash redneck's mud tires"

I think I see the connection

Ron

By Mike on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Ron,

Don't worry. I'll pollute for everybody. One of the product lines I sell is EPS (Expandable Polystyrene) All of my green friends just about have a heart attack when I tell them that.

Mike

By Gregg Warnken (Gregg) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:20 pm: Edit

I admit I do shop at REI occasionally out of convenience (store 1 mile from my house), but try my best to always support my local mom and pop camping/kayaking/fishing/hardware store whenever possible. I don't do Walmart either. Superstores have indirectly closed down some of the best hardware, outdoor, etc. type of local stores in my area. They just can't compete with the corporate giants. I know my post isn't relevant to the Sierra Club topic, but I personally can't get a damn person to help me at Walmart, Home Depot, or REI for that matter. Noone who knows what they are talking about anyways. Now the mom 'n pop stores...they ALWAYS help...and are accessible...and knowledgable. Who would you rather call...$G or John at RTE for advice??? Get my drift??

On another point, shitheads like the Sierra Club are great reasons to wheel responsibly...tread lightly....coz they DO have some weight when it comes to politics...just a few careless off roaders will get these peoples' attention very quickly. If you wanna get political about everywere you shop, I think you are going to get frustrated at every turn. You can find something to bitch about wherever you want if you look hard enough. So John Kruger likes REI. Big fucking deal. He is trying to make a living for himself, and is proud of it. I don't see where it has any relevancy to his Discovery and his off roading interests.

Wheel on John, and good luck with your business.

Gregg

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:44 pm: Edit

"if all the hardcore believers truely
believed what they preach, then they'd all just kill themselves."

what I'm saying is the hardcore are so out-of-focus that they want total closure for humans so the bugs & bunnies can play in peace; if they continue and carry their logic forward, then they would come to realize that the planet would be better off without them. Of course, they would counter my argument with "we have to stick around to be the voice for nature, blah blah blah..." Kind of like the Hollywood liberal extreme that preaches for gun confiscation and then gets pulled over with a chrome-plated 9mm under the seat (and a bag of coke). "Well, I have to protect myself" is the standard argument. Hypocracy is the theme here....

I'm talkin about the hardcore crowd here, not Kruger or the average Joe & Jane who indirectly or even directly contribute to Sierra, Greenpeace, etc. On a side note, I wonder what the average demographic is for the extreme groupies....young w/ affluent parents perhaps? Long on time & short on responsibility perhaps?

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:03 pm: Edit

pyle, am i illegally in BFE ? or is ther an explicit right to be there with a motorized vehicle?


if i am breaking the law then there aint much i can do, sometimes vigalantism is the only way to get shit done.


i'd have to beat on them if i was say on Hole in the rock trail and i caught them doing that.

rd

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Bluegill here is a few for ya:

"We have got to share this planet with the other living creatures, and sharing means not merely preserving them in zoos or National Parks, but setting aside huge areas. Whole regions perhaps that will be free of human interference. Ideally, I would like to see certain large areas of the planet set off-limits to human entry of any kind, even aerial over flights."

-Edward Abbey-Deep Ecology for the 21st Century: The Natural Wonder: An Ecocentric World View. New Dimensions Radio, 1998.


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"The only hope of the Earth is to withdraw huge areas as inviolate natural sanctuaries from the depredations of modern industry and technology. Move out the people and cars. Reclaim the roads and the plowed lands."

-Dave Foreman,
Confessions of an Eco-Warrior


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"At first glance, a vision of North America with regained wildness and biodiversity seems unrealistic, even utopian. But when we consider that restoration at this scale is a process requiring decades or even centuries, it begins to make sense."

-Noss and Cooperrider, 1994, "Saving Natures Legacy, Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity." Island Press, Washington, D.C.)


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"Does all the foregoing mean that Wild Earth and The Wildlands Project advocate the end of industrialized civilization? Most assuredly. Everything civilized must go..."

-John Davis, editor of
Wild Earth magazine


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"The crucial paradigm shift the Deep Ecology movement envisions as necessary to protect the planet from ecological destruction involves the move from an anthropocentric to a spiritual/ecocentric value orientation...Humanity must drastically scale down its industrial activities on Earth, change its consumption lifestyles, stabilize and then reduce the size of the human population by humane means, and protect and restore wild ecosystems and the remaining wildlife on the planet."

-George Sessions, editorial advisor,
Wild Earth magazine


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"Furthermore, most attempts to use sustainability as a management paradigm have been anthropocentric, biased toward commodity production, and seriously flawed from a biological standpoint."

-Wild Earth magazine


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"Our vision is simple: we live for the day when Grizzlies in Chihuahua have an unbroken connection to Grizzlies in Alaska; when Gray Wolf populations are continuous from New Mexico to Greenland; when vast unbroken forest and flowing plains again thrive ans support pre-Columbian populations of plants and animals; when humans dwell with respect, harmony, and affection for the land; when we come to live no longer as strangers and aliens to this continent."

-Wildlands Project vision statement


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Many ecologist (myself included) would just as soon see huge areas of land kept off limits to human activities of any kind."

-Noss, R. 1995. Maintaining Ecological Integrity in Representative Reserve Networks. World Wildlife Fund Canada Discussion Paper. p. 12.)


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One American burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshis... This is a terrible thing to say. In order to stabilize world populations, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it's just as bad not to say it."

-Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier, 1991


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"it is clear that current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class, involving high meat intake, consumption of large amounts of frozen and convenience foods, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and workplace air conditioning, and suburban housing, are not sustainable."

-Maurice Strong


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"I believe that human overpopulation is the fundamental problem on Earth Today" [and] "We humans have become a disease, the Humanpox."

-Dave Foreman, Sierra Club, co founder of Earth First!

By Brian on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:30 pm: Edit

The thing that bothers me about REI are the stupid employees. There once was a time when there used to be knowledgable people there but I think they all work at A16 now.

Me: what's the difference btw these climbing boots?

dumb shit: this ones brown and that ones a little darker.

Then I fuck with them and ask some techinical questions and they start to bull shit...it's so funny.

Kyle would have a field day there...
Like Bluegill, I take advantage of the big clearance sales REI has. For new equipment I usually go to A16.

Brian

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Rob , if you drove your truck as far as you legally could and got out and left it... Thats what I am talking about and its not far fetched...

Kyle

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Oldscout:

How true. How selfless. How optimistic. How romantic. How idealistic. How altruistic. How unrealistic.

Do we forget that humans are not divine entities that created this planet? We're animals too. But the above arguments have convinced me that we need to thin out the herds quite a bit. So........who wants to volunteer to be first? No one? Hmmmmm....back to square one. OK, maybe someone needs to take control and conduct the killing campaign. Should we preferentially kill more Americans than Bangladeshis? Who decides? I called God and he's not answering.

My motto is: Evolution - ride the wave

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:48 pm: Edit

then i'd have to kick some ass kyle.

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Rob , that is their deal.... read up on em some and find out for yourself...


Kyle

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:01 pm: Edit

too bad that good-intentioned people send the extremists their hard-earned money because they think that it's a good cause.

p.s. you don't even need to be in BFE to be fucked with (remember the "sticker the SUVs at the mall movement?)

By Kyle on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:05 pm: Edit

I would laugh off the four flats if only I could catch a few of them doing it....Thats better then winning the Lotto..... damn...

Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:26 pm: Edit

kyle what tank would you reccomend for airing up my tires.

rd

By John on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:42 pm: Edit

They want room to run their rabbits,deer, woodpeckers, etc....we want trails to run our trucks. There is more tax revenues in trails for running trucks in the politicians eyes as well as revenues for local business, and our tax dollars bought the federally owned lands whick the govt does manage for money interests/revenue.The politicians will lean to the revenue side. Our population growth will prevent green belts from Alaska to Chili. The ideals are nice for these groups but land will always be availiable to wheel on unless the wheelers puts that off limits. Thats a bigger concern if you need a cause. John Krugers professional needs in his line of business needs to lean to the "ecology" right. Wish I had a business like his....damn...wheel and fish for trout.

By Brian P. Luse (Brian95disco) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 06:48 pm: Edit

oldscout:
Just what areas did you have in mind? How large? What about current residents? non-native species? This is not the United States of the World (yet?). Many countries do not have the luxuries we have in the U.S. If I (or you) lived in the third world and my famiily was starving, I would have no problem eating a (insert favorite endangered species here). The fact is humans are here to stay. Sure, we should not abuse the environment, but there is nothing wrong with using it.

I shop at REI. why? simply because I hate mail ordering a jacket, pair of shoes etc and it not fitting. what a pain in the ass.

Additionally, the only true way to change a groups philosophy is to join it and vioce your opinion within the group.

later,
Brian95disco, the mean evil environmental attorney who works for corporations who are polluting and ruining this world and oh yeah, provide the products we use daily.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit

ummmm....I don't think Oldscout is really on the same side as those he quoted....I think he posted that as an example of more extreme environmentalism....sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

-Blue, the mean evil environmental consultant who works for the same guys Brian does

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 10:02 pm: Edit

LOL!

So, I'm the gov't type who regulates coal-mining, ie. make sure that the company's mining plan abides by the regs... then let them go at it!

Hey, I like hitting a switch and getting light...


-L

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 10:41 pm: Edit

I had some Sierra Club mid-life lesbian (not that there's anything wrong with that) bitch come up to me and tell me that "it isn't fair" one day while my dog was digging after a gopher on some county park trail. She ruined my walk and was grossly underinformed about everything on the planet.

There are many things that aren't fair [to me]:

• The U.S. propagating its democratic assertions over anyone who gets in the way.
• The killing of innocents in New York and Washington by people willing to die for their idea of a God.
• The Sierra Club's destruction of our State and National Parks with ill-advised piss-poor forest management and fire suppression to the point of un-natural and dangerously high fuel levels never before seen. Look at what happened to Yellowstone as evidence of the dangers they've single-handedly introduced to our parks.
• Want to really get eco-nazi? How about the introduction of the European Starling to the United States and the irrepairable damage it has done to our natives or the same scenario in Guam where the Brown Tree snake has all but taken over.
• I can't buy a Defender 110 without taking the shit apart and reassembling it here and calling it a kit-car because it doesn't meet NAS air-bag standards.
• People drive 40 and 50 miles per hour down my narrow residential street while I sit watching - hoping my kids or pets aren't unfortunate victims under their tires.
• We took all that land from the Native Americans and kicked their fucking heads in with our boots - still claiming that we discovered the place in the 15th century - W.T.F.?!

I could go on all night here - the point is I reeally wanted to kick her f-ing teeth in for bugging me on my walk. My dogs dig for gophers and she and all of her SClub friends create a hundred-thousand-million pounds of waste every year eating organic f-ing food that still has to be packaged in something. Fuck all those SClub fuckers. Insofaras off-roading - go ahead and close all the parks to the people who care about the land and just want access. Go ahead. Terrific. I'll just have to start off-roading in your eco-friendly-Birkenstock-wearing-shop-at-REI-Banana Gap-organic granola-stuck-in-her-teeth-backyard. Oh yeah! Can't do that because she's playing host to all the gophers that have taken up residence there. FU

Oh, shit I better start drinking decaf...

-Erik

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 11:30 pm: Edit

erik, life ain't fair...

so why not make it more unfair to someone else and preserve the things you like? thats all was saying.

i know i am pissing people off because i am getting my way, but thats ok, cause i'm sure somewhere down the the road they'll do something i don't like.

rd

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Monday, December 03, 2001 - 11:42 pm: Edit

I wasn't actually responding to anything but my minor disdain for the Sierra Club organization proper. I would add that "life isn't fair" was the central thematic element of my previous post.

Some people do what they want within the confines of decency and common sense - I count myself as one. I feel that the most significant (and quickly eroding) freedom we have is to live a life of self-determination. My point was that I really didn't need (or solicit) that woman's opinion. I suppose that she was excercising her own ideal of freedom calling me to task!

Cheers,

Erik

By Kyle on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:58 am: Edit

Hmmm , should have asked that if she was given the choice of the dog nibbling on her or attempting to nibble on a ground hog,,,,which would she like better ?
For the most part these are just bored individuals that need a hobby , everyone needs a god damned hobby...


Kyle

By joeblanchard on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Not to change the subject.. Christmas is coming up and I was wondering? Has everyone killed a tree for jesus yet?

just curious?

Joe

By Anonymous on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit

I am suprised no PETA people have jumped in here yet. If anyone else is bored at work goto: www.petlo.com (people for the ethical treatment of living organisms)
Funny (only if you have a sense of humor)

By gp (Garrett) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

just did last night!! got a nice fraser fir. smelled good. trimming the thing tonight with asbestos and polystyrene ornaments. hehe nah......just pine cones and old milk cartons from gradeschool. then we are going to sit around in our hemp clothing and birks and smoke so much damn *@#%!!!!!

ps: i have not been baptized, so i am going to hell either way.....tree or no tree

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:03 pm: Edit

sorry for the double

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Family and I went and bought a tree that was killed for Jesus after I got done off-roading on public land Sunday (I pay the capitalist giant Home Depot to do my dirty deeds for me):

Garrett, can I sit around your tree with you and smoke your clothes?

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:07 pm: Edit

In an "Iron Chef" shirt!!!




-L

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:10 pm: Edit

That's my Sunday best.

By John Kruger on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:28 pm: Edit

I think it may be time to start a new thread, call it The Sacrifice of Conifers for Religious Beliefs of something similar.


Thanks
John Kruger
97 XD with $tuff
Adventure Outfitters, LLC

By threadhead on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:45 pm: Edit

but this one works fine

By Roverine on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Just now caught this thread ... Damn, I didn't know REI was a big supporter of Sierra Club ... I've only bought a few things from them recently (only things that I cannot find anywhere else when I want them - their stuff is ridiculously overpriced).

I used to work for the largest manufacturer of disposable food packaging products in the world. Made just about everything for everyone from Disney to McDonalds, Starbucks, schools, hospitals, stadiums, offices, you name it, whatever ... If they wanted paper only, they got it. Also manufactured plastic and foam products. I actually had to help give lectures at an enviormental exhibit building one year with a bunch of other manufacturers at the LA County Fair (never saw so many toothless people in my life, it was weird). Through the 10 years I worked with this manufacturer, I ran into all types; What I found was the typical: The more fervent and green they were, the more narrow minded and uneducated they were. Especially the idiots in Hollywood on "Earth Day", 1990. Like with coffee cups - My favorite was the fact that paper cost almost 3 times as much to produce, the process in which it is made uses far more energy (most of them still have no clue about what it takes to produce any type of energy) and the manufacturing process was far more contaminating than what is is to produce the type of foam products that we produced; I always wondered, ... just what the hell did the people that HAD to have our paper products think that paper is made from?? (trees). None of these people had a clue about the reality of landfills, and other real facts about recycling and other means of disposing of "non toxic" byproducts. For example, few of them ever thought twice about using twice as much water and detergents (and the sewage and saniationn issues) to wash dishes. What mattered was public image to most of the businesses. The cost drove some of them almost out of business. I have to say that my own observation about the demograhics on the "extreme eco groupies" fit in with Blue's above pondering - I would say that a majority of them that I had the displeasure of having to try to educate were either ignorant, young, had affluent parents with too much time and little real responsibilities or experience in the real world.

Well, I'm rambling. Too many sheep out there in our world ... Oh well.

Kim
(and get this, in our family as far as the X Mas tree goes, "Dad and Lad" actually go out to the tree farm, pick out their victim, tag it, and then later, go kill it and pick it up )

By Pvt Joker on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:22 pm: Edit

I have to go with Kyle and Blue Gill on this: The enviro-wacko crowd is OUT TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHT TO DRIVE OFF-ROAD! Make no bones about it, this group of sniveling environeosocialists are out to make all of the US march to their convoluted drum beat. I live in Minneapolis/St Paul and the town is full of these assholes. There is a group here for protesting everything American and fun! It is also THE CAPITAL for Women Against Military Madness.... http://www.wamm.org (I think). Ther is no place to go offroading here and these freaks look at your Disco like it was a hunter killing baby seals. These people are so lame....they have no real idea of how the world and industry works and thus have no basis in reality for their opinions. So fuck REI and fuck the Sierra Club

By Rebel Rover on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit

umm...the last link (www.wamm.org) is pretty cool, kinda ties in with the whole hemp theme going on here. As America progresses more and more towards the socialism we see in Europe, the closing of public lands to offroading will be the least of our problems. We all know that the Bill of Rights is'nt a guarantee of anything anymore....Vote Vote Vote

By ken on Monday, December 10, 2001 - 02:52 pm: Edit

I got "birks" on ebay for $50