By hadaz on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:55 am: Edit

To: lrownerrelations@landroverna.com
cc:
bcc:
Subject: Parts Quality
April 20, 2001

To: Land Rover North America

On April 6, 2001 I brought my 99 Discovery SD into Land Rover Scottsdale for service. The problem was a leaking power steering box. My Discovery had 43804 miles on it at the time and is still covered under the factory warranty. The service department found additional leaks in the area of the rear main seal and the cylinder heads. All together they did approximatley $2300 in warranty repair. While at the dealership being repaired they replaced the original steering box with another steering box, but when the mechanic went for a test drive that steering box malfunctioned and locked up. So they replaced that steering box with another. I picked up the vehicle on April 11, 2001 from LR Scottsdale. That night I drove the vehicle home from work and after approxiamtely a twenty minute drive I lost all power steering fluid. The power steering box that they had replaced broke and was leaking at the seals. I returned my Discovery to LR Scottsdale on the 14th of April for the above problem. I stopped by on the 16th of April and spoke to my Service Advisor John Thomas. I explained to Mr. Thomas what the problem was and showed him exactly where the leak was coming from. Again LR Scottsdale attempted to fix the problem. I picked up my Discovery on the 18th of April. Again after a short time frame the power steering box was leaking but now from another location. Again I returned my Discovery to LR Scottsdale on the 19th of April for the leaking power steering box. Again I showed my Service Advisor where the power steering fluid was coming from and again for the third time LR Scottsdale replaced my steering box with another. At this time I found out also that Land Rover has a policy of using used/rebuilt power steering boxes on their vehicles that are being brought into the dealerships if the vehicle has more than some magical number of 24000 or 25000 miles. I find that policy to be detrimental to Land Rover. As a first time Land Rover owner that practice and or policy gives me great cause and concern about Land Rover and their products if all they do is use used/rebuilt parts to fix their vehicles that are under factory warranty. The trust and confidence in Land Rover and their products has been hurt and is being hurt by such practices. Luckily for my service advisor and the mechanics at LR Scottsdale I am not going to give them a bad rating for the work that has been done on my vehicle. I understand that they have no control over the fact that Land Rover forces them to use used/rebuilt parts and that they have no control over the quality of those used/rebuilt parts either. But still in the long run it will hurt the dealership and Land Rover because I will tell others of this practice by Land Rover of using used and rebuilt parts on their vehicles that are under warranty. I am sorry to see tha a company that touts there vehicles as the BEST 4X4 in the world cannot stand by their product and use quality parts and material. I still want to thank John Thomas and the mechancis at Land Rover Scottsdale for the work that they have done on my vehicle. They have done quality work each and every time that I have had my vehicle serviced by them.

respectfully,

Allen Hale
LRNA'S Response

Dear Mr. Hale:
Thank you for contacting our office. Allow us to first apologize for the inconvenience and frustration you undoubtedly experienced while dealing with this issue. All warranty repairs made by an authorized Land Rover dealer in North America will be made free of charge for the duration of the warranty period. As indicated in the Passport to Service warranty booklet, the dealer will repair the defective part or replace it with a new or remanufactured genuine Land Rover part. Replacement parts will be covered for the balance of this warranty or 12 months from the date of installation, whichever is greater.

We again apologize for the negative experience and assure you that all repairs made by Land Rover Scottsdale are in accordence with our Land Rover Manufacturer's Limited Warranty. Should you ever need assistance in the future, please do not hesitate to let us know.

Thank you,

Land Rover Owner Relations

By Jon on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 09:19 am: Edit

So what they're saying is, it's cheaper for them to give you a new steering box every couple days than it is for them to buy a new one from ZF and install it as would be done at the factory? Gee, the labor for one replacement should equal the cost of a brand new steering box. Sounds like LR is shooting themselves in the foot ...again, and again, and again - at least every time you get a steering box replaced!

By mrbieler on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 09:47 am: Edit

I'm not really sure if I see the problem.

Remanufactured parts have been around and used successfully for a long long time. There is an assumption that the remanufactured part is up to snuff, but that's a different issue. The steering box is what it is, a "box" with seals and internals. If the box is in good shape, it makes sense to rebuild with spec internals, new seals, etc.

If LR is having problems with their remanufactured parts supplier, that's one thing, but using remanufactured parts is not evil. Yes, it's a cost saving measure, but when done correctly, you're not using a "lesser" part.

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 11:44 am: Edit

You're not really sure if you see the problem??? Are you kidding me? Open your goddamn eyes! Four total steering boxes and four total visits to the dealer. Have you ever heard of QA/QC? And I'm sure that hadaz is confident that the current steering box is a real f#$@ing gem that will never have similar problems. How can you have confidence in the company, the product, and the service when they operate this way? They just grab a "remanufactured" box off the shelf, slap it in, and let the truck go. If it comes back the next day with the same problem, they scratch their heads, grab another POS off the shelf, slap it in, and let the truck go. Etc. etc. etc. ad absurdum...

We all have better things to do than make daily trips to the dealer for "warranty work". Don't know about you all, but my time is as valuable to me as money in the bank. Too many of you are happy if you pick up your rig from the dealer and it doesn't happen to actually be on fire. "Hey, It ain't burin this time...I can drive it off the lot, must be perfect!"

my two cents, no personal offense intended mrbieler.

By Alyssa on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Actually, rebuilt steering boxes ahould be better than new. The old boxes use bearings that wear out. The fix for the problem is only available in the rebuilt steering boxes. I understand what you're going through, and it's terrible that you had to deal with 4 bad boxes. However, your dealer, and LRNA were trying to make your vehicle BETTER by putting in the rebuilt box. I can tell you that almost ALL warranty repairs are new parts, EXCEPT in circumstances like above where the rebuild is the fix.

By Leon on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:26 pm: Edit

LR did not even focus on the issue that you raised; the ineffectiveness of using remanufactured parts for almost new vehicles, and the detriment it causes to their reputation. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE for them to use remanufactured parts in vehicles that are still under original factory warranty. IT IS a problem and it is a ripoff and terrible inconvenience to have to put up with that crap. I might be more forgiving with a remanufactured part being used after the original warranty has passed. But remember, someone is paying for this shit every time they break. A company like LR should have the decency to provide honest goods/services when they charge top dollars like they do.

By Leslie on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Alyssa,

You said that the old box uses bearings that wear out, and that the rebuilt doesn't. If the new box doesn't use bearings, what does it use? Or, is it that the rebuilt boxes use a different bearing that doesn't wear out? If that's the case, is this something that should be taken in and replaced by a dealer as preventative care?

But this leads to... are the NEW boxes still coming with bad bearings?? Do all Discos have the same problem, or is it just before a certain build date??

Educate us!

-L

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Leon is right - All LRNA said is, "LR Scottsdale is doining things right. Sorry for any inconvenience. We're not charging you for this 'service' so quit complaining. If you need help again in the future please call. We're always here to help. Have a nice day, Sir."

Alyssa, I was not aware of rebuilt being "better" than new due to mechanical aspects you highlight....but....that's pretty pathetic in it's own right, isn't it? Is that any defense for LRNA?

By Alyssa on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Hey, I'm not sticking up for LRNA, I'm just providing their side of the story. I definately think that they try to screw everyone over-- including the dealer. You have no idea the ridiculous prices they charge the DEALER for things. Backorders on crucial parts are common. Even OIL FILTERS were out of stock for over a month. Back to the PS: The new boxes use upgraded bushings. It is rebuilt by Meridian. ...and I don't know if they started building it right the first time around yet.

By mrbieler on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Bill,

I meant about using a remanufactured part. The fact that they are failing is total BS and someone needs to find out why. My comment was directed at the first two posts upset over the use of a remanufactured part.

The jist of the 1st post's complaint seems to be in regards to the use of remanufactured parts. The 2nd post supported that. My point is that the use of a remanufactured part IS NOT THE PROBLEM AND IS NOT A SIGN OF LRNA BEING CHEAP. There are many many parts on vehicles that are commonly rebuilt and reused and continue to perform well after the life expectancy of the parent vehicle.

It's possible that Scotsdale, while being very helpful, isn't doing a good job of diagnosing the problem. Perhaps something is causing the box to fail repeatedly. I don't know. What I do know is that a properly remanufactured part does not mean it's 2nd rate. A properly remanufactured part that performs as expected could even be transparent to the consumer. If it hadn't leaked and he drove away happy for years on end, he'd never even know it was remanufactured.

That's what I was pointing out. Getting pissed at the use of the remanufactured part will not solve the mystery and will bring no one any closer to a real solution.

Jeff

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Yeah, I've used reman parts in all my vehicles. A steel box with bad gaskets can be made as good as new with good gaskets (provided integrity of steel is OK). I'm not questioning you there - my point is that there is ambiuity in the term "remanufactured". Obviously, LR Scottsdale has poorly reman steering boxes, and hadaz sufferred for it. LRNA says "Too bad, that's the way it is." They don't even address the real issue, which is inferior parts, reman or not. They just shoot out a very polite stock form letter and think they've solved another problem. In the meantime, hadaz has power steering fluid flowing down his driveway. If LRNA continues to operate this way, they'll never overcome the English "quirks" that some people seem to adore. Personally, I associate English quirks with lost time and money and an overall unjustified pain in the ass. Alyssa brought up a few more points that highlight LRNA's poor philosophy.

By hadaz on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 06:13 pm: Edit

My letter was addressed to LRNA for the purpose of expressing the disappointment in the fact that they use rebuilt parts in the vehicles and that the rebuilt parts seem to lack any type of quality. There was no justification that I should have brought my vehicle in that many times for in that short of period to have 3 rebuilt power steering boxes placed into my vehicle.I was not complaining about the fact that at only 43000 miles that they had to R&R the transmission to fix the oil leaks coming from the rear main seal or the fact that I had to have the gaskets replaced on the cylinder heads due to leaks. The dealer fixed them the 1st time wiht no problem. I would not have complained either if the 1st power steering box worked properly or maybe the 2nd box worked properly. But to have to replace the original with 3 rebuilts to finally get one that worked properly and did not void itself of power steering fluid with in a 1/2 hour of picking the vehicle up. That is sad and I wanted to express such to LRNA. I know that they were not going to do anything and I was suprised to see that they even responded to my e-mail.

By Leon on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Hey guy's. Let's assemble this thread and send the damn thing to LRNA.

By Alyssa on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Let's not and say we did... they're the one's writing out my paycheck each month & I kinda sorta love my job.

By Ron on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 02:14 pm: Edit

"A steel box with bad gaskets can be made as good as new with good gaskets (provided integrity of steel is OK). "

This is the catch, its not. The shaft wears and then the seals don't seal right, at least not for long. I am not sure if LRNA uses meridian rebuilt boxes exclusively, but I know meridian boxes are the fix, in fact one will be going in the rangie soon. For 270 exchange including shipping it seems like a small price to pay to eliminate a major headache. I would be willing to bet that new ones off the line do not have the same bearing arrangment as the meridian ones. As for the problem, did you look at the boxes? They should show some sign of being rebuilt. It is possible that they just stuck used ones on there with new seals and called them rebuilt. Or a supplier other than meridian rebuilt them and just replaced the seals.

Let us know how it works out.

Good Luck
Ron

By hadaz on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 12:23 am: Edit

They appeared to be rebuilt. So far no leaks in this box, yet. Does meridian have a web site or a web site that I can find information on them?

By Ron on Wednesday, May 02, 2001 - 09:55 am: Edit

Look down on discoweb.org to meridian power steering boxes I posted info a couple weeks ago.

Ron