By nadim on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 02:41 pm: Edit

As promised, I was to share my initial design with you guys concerning a rear mount for 2 jerry cans, a high lift, a 35" tire, and maybe a shovel...

well, please go to http://www.landroverunion.com, browse the whole site (i'm the PR officer of the union...), and then go to garage, and it will be there!

enjoy!

By mrbieler on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Nadim,

Nice site and interesting design. Lebanon must give you a wide variety of terrain options and weather within relatively close driving distances.

Two questions:
1) How confident are you that the original mounting points alone will support all the extra weight of the rack, larger tire, jack, and two full cans?

2) Have you considered adding a 3rd hinge to the rear door for support?

Jeff

By nadim on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Jeff,

This is a strictly theoretical design, to be implemented in August.

I am sure that a third hinge will be very hard to add, so I will keep that as my last resort.

By moving the 2 cans towards the hinges and to the lowest position possible, and by putting the high lift closest to the door, and the tire closest to the hinges, I think that it would be just right (I may be very very wrong though!)...

As for the 6 mounting points, well, we can always have a beefy back plate to help distribute the weight...no?

nadim

By mrbieler on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Good luck with it. I'd prefer this solution versus a roof rack. The PITA of getting bulky items off the roof can be a hassle at times.

Mostly, I am curious. I have not taken a hard look at the rear door myself. The load on the mount and the hinge can/could be excessive, but someone has to be the guinea pig and try! ;-)

Jeff

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Those rear door hinges are pretty damn beefy, but the door, glass, tire, subwoofer magnets, etc. are pretty damn heavy. I wonder if Nadim could design the rear mount so that it barely rested on the bumper when the door was closed? A wedge design with a somewhat elastic material would ensure a permanent contact (non-rattling while supportive).

By nadim on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:02 pm: Edit

I thought about that Bluegill, but it is way too complicated...

This is what I think should work:

If we are able to put all the heavy loads as close as possible to the hinges and to the door, we are set...i mean, when the rear door is closed, there is no "hinge" problem...however, when opening it, there might be, so better put the weight as close as possible to the hinges...

Another thing is the strength of the door skin, well, after seeing how the structure looks like, I think that if we manufacture some sort of thick plate that will distribute the weight of the whole thing, we'll be safe...

well, this remains to be seem from my side, since the practical part will take shape in august...

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Isnt this whole kind of thing much better done on a bumper as opposed to a door. Why not attach that carrier to a Kaymar, or custom bumper? Then all the weight can taken off the door and moved to the frame via the bumper. Then we dont have to worry about hinges and what have you. Im not a scientist, but it seems to make sense.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Your'e right The question really is, "How much can the rear door handle?" It's obviously easier to add onto the existing mounting system (tire/door) rather than design a new one (bumper/frame), but it's probably better to make the jump to the bumper for a lot of extra weight...how much is "a lot"?

By mrbieler on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit

I'm thinking of the forces slamming downward on the rear door as you step off a rock ledge, etc. Add a larger tire, the weight of the new mount system, two jerry cans full of water/gas, and a few tools and you could see a lot of pressure on the door.

I'm not an engineer and my mechanical ability is shade tree at best, but...

Certainly not trying to rain on a parade. This is a direction I would like to go myself. I'm leaning towards a bumper based system as I should be picking up a Classic in the next few weeks and a design that works for both vehicles would be awesome. This Disco will become the "mom" mobile, but will still get dirty regularly.... ;-}

This was posted on the Rovers North page. It's a custom design. The shape of the bumper looks like $G, but is not:

http://www.zing.com/picture/p3c9fccbbb3920d699fba734bd7cb6498/fe87f4e0.jpg.orig.jpg

Jeff

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Nice design - notice how the entire load is spread out across that nice steel bumper?

Have you ever seen a huge monster tire rip the puny little toy tailgate off of a Wrangler? People buy a $14k Wrangler, add on $1,200 worth of rims and rubber, and just slap the spare back on the matchbox lid tailgate. All that weight gets shakin on-road and really gets rockin and rollin off-road until "whammo" off comes the tailgate or the sheet metal just shears away.

Same thing could conceivably happen to the Disco tailgate (it won't come off, but metal could eventually fatigue and fail). Nadim's idea about reinforcing with a metal plate to spread the load is a good start - better to sandwich door with two plates, even better to go to bumper/frame mount. Nadim's talking about 35's, 10-gallons liquid, hi-lift, and maybe the ubiquitous cooler full of beers.

By mrbieler on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:34 pm: Edit

More pics. I would like to see mounting pics and views of the underside, but...

side view:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p8281aa66946bc793e18e36935f5fc570/fe87f4c0.jpg.orig.jpg

view of hinge:
http://www.zing.com/picture/pec27da9e9c16d205532db3d20e6d5f5c/fe87f4cc.jpg.orig.jpg

Per the owners comments, the hinge is two pipes with a teflon hinge. No need to grease. You could also go brass I guess.

By Michel on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:05 pm: Edit

It's not bad, but it takes up the whole bumper. I use the bumper a lot for standing on when stuck in mud/water, cooking, etc., plus access to the load bay is again restricted and looks like a bit of a pain to get into.

Nadims design doesen't have these drawbacks, but strenght is an issue. Tough call, but I'm also looking for something to mount these things on the back, some very good ideas here.

Michel

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Load bay is not at all restricted - that hinge (second photo) lets you swing the entire attachment away (to the left) for complete access to the back of the Rangie. The only "issue" is the extra step in the process (you don't simply open the tailgate - first you have to swing away the attachment).

Teflon friction surface is a nice touch. That friend of mine who fabs equip for the space station made his Wrangler rear carrier hinge out of molybdenum - steel alloyed with molybdenum is very strong, thereby requiring less material for the hinge mechanism.

By al hang on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Mr. Bieler, may I ask if the rangie owner in the pics has a site? I was curious because he's running the same tires I'm considering, the SS Trxus. Do you know his opinions on them? Noise, handling, tread life?

Thanks,

-Al

By mrbieler on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:23 pm: Edit

His name, I think, is Larry Grubbs. He goes by LarryG on the Rovers North board. I pulled those pics off the Rovers North page and I don't know much else. He did mention that it weighs about 120lbs for the bumper and rack.

If you post there asking for him, I assume he'll pop up and reply.

I do know that the Xterra folks I know that run the Inter Co TrXus are happy, but they've only had them a month or two. Most are running the 31x10.5 R15's.

Jeff

By Michel on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:28 pm: Edit

I understand the swing away thing, a must, and this one is very nice, but the extra step is too much for some situations in my case. Hey, hold on, if it swings away in one step only, meaning it's attached to the door, and opening the door, also swings the bracket that would work better. But still have the issue of it taken up the rear step on the bumper. I think I like nadims design with a wedge on the bottom like you said so it can rest on the bumper. Less stuff, less room, easier to open and close when it really matters.


Nadim, get to work :-)
Michel

By nadim on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Michel...

I will not be showing up on the bboard for some time now...back to the drawing board to consider the bumper system...

I am by no means protecting my initial design, since I intend to get the best quality from what i do, so I hope to see which is the best bet, bumper system vs door system...

see you guys soon...

nadim

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Good luck man, Im looking forward to seeing what you come up with. If you can make it work, Im sure there will be a huge market for it. Tomken makes a similar system for the Cherokee, I used to have one and it worked very well. The NAS D90 system is a good design, as the door opens, the tire swings out with it, and then it locks together at the point of full open, but the entire weight of the tire is on the body mounts (which Im not advocating either). Not that would work the same on a Disco, but they are decent aspects to consider. Doesnt the Kaymar bumper already come with a "swing" attachment point?

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Check out Gerry Elam's pix in the Tech section ("Kaymar rear bumper"). There is a pivot point on the right hand side (and another mounting point on the left). There is one obvious drawback to the Kaymar, however, that precludes use by me - you can no longer set your beer bottle on the end cap

By nadim on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Ok...

As I see it, we have 2 rear choices:

1. A mount that only depends on the bumper. This will surely be strong enough. However, it may be not handy, and difficult to use. Plus, I feel that the bumper as is helps owners in many aspects (table, cutting surface, workbench...).

2. A mount that hooks to the door skin ONLY. I will elude a mount that is combined with the bumper and the door since it will link the chassis and the body in a bad way (i.e. without the use of rubber mounts). In my opinion, as long as we are sure that the door itself (and not the hinges, which will be assumed to be strong enough) can withstand the weight of the system, we are safe. We can use a thick baking plate on the iside part of the door that will spread the force, and thereby have the whole door support the 6 bolts, and not the washers alone. If one thinks of the weight of a 200lbs (add 75!) man on the ladder, then a combination of 150lbs with 6 bolts (vs. 4 screws of the ladder), and a huge backing plate will do. I cannot say that I am 100% sure, but I am now even more convinced that the initial system will work.

Needless to say, I will continue looking into it, as I am not too keen on having my fuel, tire, high lift, and rear door fly off on an expedition in the desert!...I remember a Disco owner in hte photogallery who added a lot of equipment to the stock puny mount, I will see who it is, and email him/her for more answers...

Nadim

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:05 am: Edit

Just last week, at my dealer, we had to replace a rear door on a Disco. The reason being, it had a ladder that the owner actually used. He was a 200 lbs+ man. The use of the ladder over the last 5 years caused the rear door to sag and not close properly. So, the door is not designed to carry that much weight, and over time it will have an effect. Not trying to spoil the party, just thought you should know.

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:10 am: Edit

Nadim,

I don't think the door will hold long-term, especially the way you wheel hard core and all. I would have it mount to the door and to the back of the vehicle with a triangulated mount system similar but stronger than a NAS D90.

Cheers
Ron

By SmokinBro on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 10:14 am: Edit

nadim;

It sounds like a great idea but...
a 200 lb. man climbs up relatively passively. And usually only when the vehicle is stopped?

150 lb. of gear on the back door, whilst rock climbing is a lot of mass to throw around. I think that over time there will be damage

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 12:04 pm: Edit

But Nadim takes it easy off-road...it's not like he goes airborne or anything!

By nadim on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:36 pm: Edit

What all you guys are saying is very true, and I will take it into consideration, but I was thinking that for 2 years now I have had a hi-lift and a spare tire on the puny stock mount with no problems, would the addition of ~80lbs add to the whole sherade?

Right now I am seriously considering a 1/2 bumper, 1/2 door mount, but will see what will prevail...

nadim

By Tc on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Nadim,

I have already sent your design to a fabricator. Once it is made, I will let you know how it works. I will not put the tire on it because I have a roof rack. I think it will work out great for me. Thanks.

By nadim on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 04:40 pm: Edit

TC...

great news man...good luck, and please tell me what happens!

thanks again...

nadim