By Ryan on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:07 pm: Edit

I am new to the world of Land Rovers, I recently traded my 2000 Jeep TJ for a 1995 Discovery 5-speed. The car is kind of customized with a front skidplate, new lights, battery and K&N filter. I plan to use this vehicle off-road, but it will also be my daily driver. What items should I buy for it that amounts to less than $2000?

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Oh boy, ryan, you have opened the hornets nest! Some would say lift it up, some would say buy a winch.

Assuming that the rest of the disco you bought is stock, if it were my 2 grand, I would put on a lift and more aggressive larger tires. Depending on the size of the lift, you can do this with $$ left over, or still need more $$ to finish!

For more insight, join groups.yahoo.com/group/lr-discovery and do some searches on things like "lift" and "winch". You will find the heated debate which should be insightful.

Tom

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:14 pm: Edit

RTE 2in springs 275
Detroit Locker 400
Alloy shafts 600
X9 superwinch 575
Plate to mount winch 75
Some mangecore wires and new plugs 75

Of course 2000 will also be about right to cover the first 6months of maintaince and repair. You might also want to think about tires instead of the winch or locker. Or you could buy a beater series truck for 2000 and save the disco for the commute.

Cheers
Ron

By Joe Kennedy on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:17 pm: Edit

First, I'd put sill protectors on it - check Rovertym Engineering for this - @$575 for the extreme duty ones. I'd also invest in some recovery gear if you don't already have it - Hi-Lift Jack, shackles, tree protector, snatch strap, Master Pull winch extension line, etc. Check out Bill Burke's 4 Wheeling America site for some suggestions. Diff guards. Consider changing tyres or maybe different shocks and springs?

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:21 pm: Edit

I would like to change my recomendation of plugs and wires to a SG front dif gaurd. Good point Joe. I assumed he would have the stuff from the jeep but if not get a high lift, strap, shackles, and maybe some 3/8 hi test chain.

Ron

By mrbieler on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:25 pm: Edit

- $650 gets you shocks and 2" springs and steering damper
- $650 gets you 5 better tires out the door
- $700 gets you Rovertym sliders (shipping is too much not to be added in!)

Throw in a few extra bucks for JATE rings (take off the front facia while you're there) and you've got front and rear recovery points to boot.

There's your money. Lift, tires, reovery points, and sill guards that are also proper hi-lift points....

That's the plan of attack in my world as approved by SWMBO. Streetable by any standards and good to go for most trails.

Jeff

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Hopefully Ryan has a good set of tools and can do all of these suggestions himself. Otherwise...

Tom

By ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:33 pm: Edit

The only thing that is not DIY by any trained monkey, actually any monkey should be able to handle it no training required, would be the locker, but you can usually get someplace to do it cheap if you pull the pumpkin yourself.

Cheers
Ron

PS I also like the Warn reciever shackle ($32) as a nice thing to have.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Come, on, Ron. I would say the same thing for taking a computer out of the box and putting in the power cord, but some folks need a technician for that.

If someone doesn't have a good set of tools, jack, jack stands, etc, etc. and hasn't worked on cars or trucks before, doing all of this is a daunting task. This is especially true if it is a daily driver and can't sit in the garage in pieces as someone learns as they go....

Anyway, sorry I got off the subject and am about to cause a totally different topic. I'll shut up now.

Tom

By Ryan on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:41 pm: Edit

for a rear detroit locker wouldn't you have to change a lot of the stock components in the rear?

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Alloy axle shafts (600 from GBR, 475 or less from Ashcroft) for the detroit would be all you would need. The stock Ring and Pinion is plenty strong. Nothing else would be really effected.

As far as DIY. I have seen people do everything on the list w/o major amount of tools (a set of jack stands and some basic hand tools) that have had little or no experiece with working on cars. Maybe I am a bit jaded (I decided to buy a rover in parts having never changed my own oil) but it is not complicated. Sure it might take you a while but installing springs or a winch is not that tough to understand. As far as daily driver that is what weekends are for. If you feel like you need help, look around as there is usually a club or something that will have someone who will help in exchange for beer.

Cheers
Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

No Ryan , you wouldnt. I agree with damn near everything Ron suggested. The sliders are definately a need but you can drive accordingly for awhile and avoid them. Give John at Rovertym a call. He will probably have the same things to say...

Kyle

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:58 pm: Edit

I agree with damn near everything Ron suggested

Thats a first. You must be in a good mood Kyle.

LOL
ROn

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:00 pm: Edit

I ve been out in the back yard driving around on the rocks

Kyle

By garrett on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:01 pm: Edit

First thing I did was buy an aftermarket warranty......maybe this is not really upgrading at all, but it sure beats paying for a new transfer case a year from now. You can get a good warranty for under 2G. But certainly the items listed are great suggestions. Tires, shocks and springs were my priority for sure. The stock shocks really don't seem to last long at all. Mine are toast and the truck has 52K on it. Making sure everything works good to first is a good step......exhaust, plugs, wires, intake, driveline, etc. Make sure everything is working well before you start adding all kinds of stuff.

Most importantly......have fun with it and do as much work yourself you can.

Cheers.

By John on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Learn to drive it stock first...wheel with rover owners and local clubs and learn the basic capabilities first. Dont let ego damage the truck, do whats possible and let the bigger guys do the hard stuff...observe and learn, then with a little knowledge in your billfold the course you set will be of your own choosing as opposed to 37 different opinions. Thats Johns opinion....enjoy.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Ron,

Is there a picture of this $75 winch plate somewhere? I am intrigued...I thought it would cost me at least $400 to get anything to mount a winch to.

Tom

By Ryan on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:14 pm: Edit

by shafts...do you mean I have to replace the front and the rear ones? Yes, I have worked on cars before. Mainly Jeeps, but now I am expanding my horizons. I must admit, Land Rovers do seem to be much better built then Jeeps. The stock suspension on a 4-door "family" type Disco seems to flex more than the "rugged" Jeep!

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Tom,

The plate to which I refer is the Ramsey RR plate. 75 from BP. One guy there has a couple left. PK has one on his disco with an REP. The other one that i think will work is the Bearmach plate. I and a couple other people are dealing with this now. It will mean a couple a drill holes and probably a bit of reshaping. I am trying to score a brownchurch 8274 mount for the rangie. If you look it is pretty obvious how the winch can be made to fit under there.

Ryan,
You have to replace the ones in the axles left and right rear (axleshafts). The prop shafts (drive shafts on jeeps) will not need to be changed unless you lift high enough to cause angle problems.

Ron

By Chris Browne on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:31 pm: Edit

$500 to fix POTS $40 for receiver shackle
$200 for Front end receiver $40 for recovery strap
$40 for local club membership $40 for AAA membership $15 for 3/4inch shackle $700 for rock sliders.
I'd like to see you with taller springs and tires but the budget is too small for both assuming the POTS cost is accurate. Also I assume you'll do you own work or get help from club members.
So keep the rest of the cash in the bank until you have spent several months with the truck and figured out what really matters to you.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Does PK have a photo gallery on this site that shows it?

Tom

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:35 pm: Edit

If he does that John he might end up wanting to buy alot of "Cool" shit....

Kyle

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Tom,

www.discoweb.org/paulk

Not ideal but I think if you wanted you could get the winch a little higher if you are willing to cut the plastic grill.

Ron

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Thanks, Ron. No problem on the grill, I ripped mine off long ago.

I see the drawback is a lower mounting than with a winch bumper, though. There is always something!

Tom

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Tom,

Yes that is true that it is lower, however I think that you could take the plate and move it up. I have not tried it yet but it seems like it would work fine. Then you just cut a hole in the bumper for the fairlead and you are ready to go. I have seen this plate that I was told by the owner came off of a defender (maybe the genuine kit for a 110?). It is a tray really, a plate with walls on all the sides. I think if you put it between the frame rails and drilled through the frame 4 times (or used existing holes) and mounted it with 4 1/2 grade 8 bolts it would work spectacularly, but since the owner of the plate does not have a winch yet we have not really taken everything apart to see if it could be made to fit.

Ron

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Thanks, Ron.

I think it may be worth the $75 to buy the thing and give it a try. The only thing I am looking for in a new front bumper is some stregth and the capability to ride up obstacles that are steep. I am really happpy with the clearance of the trimmed disco bumper. I can do w/out the other features in the terms of price/performance do mount a winch sooner than later.

Tom

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:07 pm: Edit

do = to

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Tom,

Here is the technical drawing of it:

http://members.mint.net/rovah/Images/Winch%20Instructions/winch1.JPG

Make sure what ever you buy will fit.

Cheers
Ron

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Thanks!

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Tom,

Try to follow me on this. If you buy a CJ plate it will look like the main part of the Ramsey one only it will be longer. If you take that and cut it so that the bottom sits flush with the bottom of the frame then you could drill through the top of the frame all the way though to the bottom of the plate with four 1/2 bolts. You could insert metal tubes to reinforce as the front of the frame is open on a disco That would be plenty to keep the winch on and it should fit nice and you would gain the area that the brackets take up on the sides.

Ron

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:32 pm: Edit

followed and saved in a text file.

thanks again.

tom

By Ryan on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:16 pm: Edit

ok...I have a 2" class III receiver in the back of the rover, can I make it a recovery point? Will that winch cradle fit the stock(trimmed) front bumper with a brush guard?

By Ron on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Yes,

Rear reco point:
Use a warn reciever shackle $32 from four wheel parts. It goes in the reciever.

Winch plate:
Yes if you look at the pic in the photo gallery for Paul K that is the set up he has.

Cheers
Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit

I have one of those Ramsey baskets sitting in the garage floor....


Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Ohhhhh really? The Blue Bus needs a winch, and a tray in which to set said winch...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Damn , aint you the dude that was busting my chops earlier?

Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Goddamn right! You said bring it on!

By Peter Matusov on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 06:22 pm: Edit

don't listen to them ryan.

it's all bs.
for $1.5k you can buy yourself a nice beater jeep
(just don't buy a wrangler anymore)
and have $500 left to put dinner-platter-sized hella lights on a factory cool-looking brush bar.
or have your rims gold plated.
everyone around here puts some ugly looking suspension or drivetrain parts, and nobody shows any passion for what really matters - THE LOOKS.

besides, you can stensil "safarigard" on your
plastic rocker panels, and they won't be much
worse than original bearers of that name.

peter

By Mike–crack head according to Kyle on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Kyle,

Isn't the full story more like out in the driveway on a rock with your mom's Disco? Thats what it looks like! ...Your buddy the crack head. "Out West at the gateway of the Rubicon Trail."


Ryan,

Odd that you would post your $2K question today. I was just thinking to myself the biggest visual change I made to my 97 SE was a full Brown Church roof rack ($650), American Racing wheels (black steel $240) and MT tires ($ky is the limit). With that said, the biggest change I made that I really feel off road was adding lockers. I did front and rear ARB and I love them but I would stop with the rear ($550) if I were you. Same cost for the front and 20% of the rears impact. The other top off road addition was a winch ($600 and up). Have fun, the cash won't last long. I have put over $1000.00 a month in my Disco for twelve months in a row (not repairs). I just cooled it for a while to stay out of divorce court!

By Jill on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:39 pm: Edit

It's his dad's.

Get lockers.

By Ryan on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

how about this combo guys:
1)OME suspension-$560
2)Great Basin Rovers alloys-$600
3)Detroit Locker-$400
4)Dunlop Radial Rover RT tires-$100ea
or:
1)Rovertym suspension-$1100
2)American Racing Steel wheels-$61ea.
3)Dunlop Radial Rover RT tires-$100ea.
4)rear Detroit True Trac

just a note...I already have an assload of recovery gear.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 12:00 pm: Edit

I think the 1st option will call for axle shaft upgrades. I think the TT is OK stock, but I don't have experience with it.

Are you planning on having a dedicated set of off-road tires/wheels (the second set mentioned in both options)? If so, why not 15" wheels and give yourself a LOT more agressive tire choices. Otherwise, the RT's work on stock wheels.

Since you asked for opinions, I have always been a very big fan of jackable rock sliders/sill guards on all my trucks. Not only for sheet metal protection, but for hi-lift points. Except for the rear receiver shackle, there are no usable hi-lift points on the vehicle.

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Go with #2. I would go with RT suspension over OME. I know of two Rovers that have had problems with OME springs. I like the black steel, it looks less prissy and will bend not break. I don't know much about the True Trac. I have ARB and LOVE them. You might think about a mud tyre. I was just on a mud trail trip with a Disco II and a 110 with AT tyres. I had MT tyres and they could not follow my Disco I on some trails.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 01:18 pm: Edit

If cash is the concern, then I'd forgoe the new rims (you already have a set that works, right?) and dedicate cash to things you DON'T have, like suspension, tires, lockers, racks, winch, etc. (in that order). I think someone said in this thread to maybe do suspension and tires and drive around for a while to see what else you think you might need - that's a good plan. Just installing more aggressive tires would be good for now (and relatively cheap), but you can go a little bigger if you do the suspension BEFORE tires. Better shoes will get the already-incredible stock disco just about everywhere a sane human wants to go. Lockers, winch, etc etc. get the rest of us a little farther! I just have OME, 245/75/16 knobbies, ARB rear locker, and I dig it the most - don't have any personal experience with Rovertym, but sounds like RTE suspension and other products are great, too.

For what it's worth....
-Blue

By Ryan on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I would like a new set of wheels because the stock ones are alloys. Alloys are not good for off-roading. Alloy wheels fracture and steel only bends. I also like the 4.25" backspacing. Lockers are a good thing to have too, but i think they are costly.

By pk on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 10:58 am: Edit

Ryan,

If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that alloys fracture and therefore are no good, I would be a rich man!

Anything will break if you hit it hard enough. I have yet to break an alloy, see one break or ever hear of one breaking. My experiance has been that factory alloys are a great wheel for off road. Has anyone ever broken an alloy?

Let's just admit that you guys all want steel wheels because they give your disco a military look.

pk

By Ryan on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Actually I have had alloy wheels fracture on several occasions. The first one was on a 1995 AM General HUMMER, they actually fractured on a paved road because of the massive load the HUMMER had. I also had alloys fracture on a 1997 Jeep Cherokee, off-road. The Hummer was ok because it just cracked the wheel and I inflated the tire to keep all the suspension components above ground. The Jeep wasn't as fortunate. It completely cracked the wheel which put pressure on the solid axle and bent it(breaking the rotors too)

That would be $2, please.

By Mike on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Besides, alloys look like mag wheels, prissy and polished. The black wheels set you apart from the housewife mobiles (altho Kyle's mom's truck looks cool).

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Yes, nothing more prissy then knocking through Moab in alloys. I don't know how I will ever be able to do Diablo Drop-off with those polished 5-spoke wheels. How posh.

Heaven's forbid one should notice the leather and wood interiors. Whatever would they say at the country club or the AYSO meetings!

As for cracking alloys, I've seen more steel wheels fail then alloy wheels fail in Anza Borrego. When either goes, you're SOL. You might be able to salvage the steel wheel later, but not the ones I've seen go. And I've seen morons break steel wheels on curbs at the mall so you'll have to do more to convince me. I'm not going to knock your purchase of them, but I'm not jumping on the phone to place my order either.

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 03:23 pm: Edit

mrbeiler, as rare as it may be, I agree with you on this one. Alloy wheels are posh and prissy?? what planet are you from? if all you are doing to set your truck apart from the "mommobiles" is adding "black" wheels then I hope I never run into you off-road. Steel wheels, alloy wheels, who gives a shit, if you prefer one over the other, then get what you prefer, but alloys making a Disco look prissy is ridiculous. Does this look like you moms disco? It should, its got alloy wheels.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 03:33 pm: Edit

"mrbeiler, as rare as it may be, I agree with you on this one."
-> I do protest! We'll have none of that "agreement" going on here!

It's good to keep things interesting and a bit mixed up. You should throw out dis-information periodically as well. Just to keep it lively.

What/whose skid plate do you have up front?

Jeff

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 03:44 pm: Edit

its an atlantic british, its looks a little funny because its bent to hell. I wouldnt recommend it. If were to get a new one, Id go with Southdown, Safety Devices, or Roversnorth, they are thicker and stronger.

By Matt Milbrandt (95discovery) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 06:38 pm: Edit

I don't think that most people buy steel rims to look cool, but because they're half as much as wheel spacers.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Matt -- You got it. That is only reason I bought mine! That, and since steel are cheaper than what i sold my alloys for, the extra $$ went to help out on the tires.

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Gil,

That truck would look so cool if it only had steel rims. They look lost, out of place, in the wrong neighborhood. If they could talk they would say HELP, how did we get on this truck with this wacko young guy, where is the old fart that use to own us, where is the valet parking, HEELLPPP!!! Thats what those rims would say if they could talk.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 12:28 am: Edit

Mike , I dont seem to remember there being a gallery for your vast excursions... However , in the trails section you will notice (If you put down the pipe) that I have been all over the damn place in my Grand mothers Disco...

Kyle

By MTB on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 08:10 am: Edit

Ryan
Putting toys on your Disco can and will be costly. So if your $'s are limited do the most important first I personally would start from the ground up (unless you come across a deal you can't pass on.) A house is only as good as it's foundation, So start with your shocks & springs. Pending on how high you go you may need to change things. Then protect your underside, set some $ aside you may need to replace something if you have to much fun and you will. Good luck and get muddy.

Michael B.
96 Disco

By Ron on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 10:07 am: Edit

If you want an OME suspension I will sell you mine. RTE does not cost more (well maybe 25 more) as long as you stick to 2in and don't go nuts getting radius arms and rear links. As far as the TT v Detroit if you crawl on rocks I think you will be better served with the Detroit if not TT works pretty well.

Cheers
Ron

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit

Kyle,


Why don't you repost the photo of you and your Disco (I'll give you credit that it's yours) humping that rock in your driveway, I love that photo! Why did you remove it from your "Photo Gallery"?

As far as travel, I might have you on that one. I'm that professional nature photographer you were picking on a few months ago for my Muli Mount Warn, but you did like the photos. And yes I think I have you beat on travel.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 10:29 am: Edit

Mike, you've got smoke from your pipe in your eyes.

While they seem to forever haunt and troll message board lists, I have yet to run into the off-road fashion police when 4-wheeling.

You'll never save up enough money for steel wheels if you don't quit spending it supporting your habit.

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 10:35 am: Edit

Jeff,

Don't you love the "if rims could talk" a few back. It's a Disco Web classic!!

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 10:38 am: Edit

Ahhhh , Mike thge crack head Photographer. Well Mike , send us some pics of you conquering something other then a dirt road and we will post em for ya. As for the ones that were in my gallery. I have to get them back up. Its nice to have the whole time line. As for my driveway , if I had a rock in it I would probably drive over it... We get bored down here in my neck of the woods from time to time...

Kyle

By ZF on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 11:15 am: Edit

Yes, the "If wheels could talk" line was pretty good, I'll give you that..

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 11:27 am: Edit

Kyle,

Come out and see us sometime. We can run the Rubicon! www.norcalrover.org


What do you guys think of this, they should have bought a Disco, or oh no they just bought Land Rover!?


AP
Ford Recalls 50,000 Explorers. Ford's latest recall is due to a conveyor belt that may have cut the tire tread on the 2002 models.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 11:38 am: Edit

"Alloys are not good for off-roading."
Bullshit!

"Alloy wheels fracture and steel only bends."
Alloy is light and strong, steel is heavy and soft (relatively speaking). I've had my Jeep steel wheels bend and, yeah, I bent them back to hold the bead, but the soft steel rims become out-of-round and then tire tread doesn't wear properly. Bent and re-bent steel rims also look like shit. I've seen steel rims bend in the mall parking lot, for God's sake! If you're beating your rims hard enough fracture the alloy, then you're a little too dependent on the idiot pedal, and short on smart driving. The biggest advantage of steel is the fact that they're CHEAP, you can get your choice of backspacing for those wider tires, and did I mention that they're CHEAP?

Here's my Dad's prissy, polished Disco...he lets me drive it on Sunday, definitely on Sunday in the driveway, on Sunday, definitely Sunday after Wopner:

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Hey Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle ,

Go to the thread titled: "A photo that REALLY needed a caption!"

Holy Sh*t! I've never seen a truck so tuff! I'm about to run out and buy me a set of them there steel wheels and go popping over curbs! You can get a great looking set of steel wheels, go mall-wheelin' and never get dirt or mud on your ride! I could have saved myself a whole lot of grief if I'd had known that.

What do those wheels say? "Help, I've fallen and can't get up."?

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Hey Blue, nice alloys. Your very lucky that your dad lets you drive it. My mom didnt know I took hers in the mud..hehehe, shes goin be mad...

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Why do they build the frame out of steel, why does the army use steel rims, why did all older work horse Land Rovers come with steel, why is your Disco's roof made out of steel? IT'S STRONGER!

If rims could talk; Alloys on the trail: We are lost, where in the F**k is this nut taking us. Wait! Watch out for that rock.....HELP US.We made a wrong turn, call the valet!! The mall is back the other way! If steel could talk: Got mud? Got rocks?

By Mike–crack man-according to Backyard-Kyle on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 02:04 pm: Edit

"A photo that REALLY needed a caption!" I can't find it.

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 03:49 pm: Edit

its in the general section....

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Hey Crack head? You need to look around more. You will see many many alloys in the rocks/mud/sand/ whatever... I have yet to see one tanked as well. Stupidity can bend a steel rim just as fast as it can an alloy rim. Ya dig?

Kyle

By Mike on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:48 am: Edit

Kyle,

Did you see my invitation a few posts back?

About rims, I did break an alloy rim on my BMW a few years ago. I don't want to break one on a trail.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:53 am: Edit

Invitation? You mean to the Rubi? DIdnt someone drive a minivan through there?

Kyle

By Mike on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:59 am: Edit

Not a chance.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 10:06 am: Edit

I don't know, but a stock ML320 did....

http://www.4x4abc.com/ML320/ML320_RUBICON.html

By Mike on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 10:30 am: Edit

The rest of the story,


Can a ML320 tackle the Rubicon Trail?
Yes, it can - but it should not! None of todays SUVs has any business to be on the Rubicon Trail. No stock SUV will escape the trail unscathed. During the summer I am on the trail every day and I have seen them all:
Buggies, full size pick up trucks, ZJ and WJ Jeep Grand Cherokee, Kia, Hummer - you name 'em, I have seen them. The all made it, but the price was high. Most of them had damage - ranging from a few Dollars to several thousand Dollars worth.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit

Yeah , thats what I thought , a Mini van ran it. You want me to drive 3800 miles tor un a trail that a mini van drove through? Is the scenery that good?


Kyle

By Tate on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit

He doesn't mention Land Rover...
The article seems to imply that the ML was more often "dragged" by the g-wagen than driven.
Hehe. It was an interesting thing to do.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:00 am: Edit

Ugh! It had alloy wheels!

The horror....

The horror....

By Peter Matusov on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Blue Gill,

are you a mechanical engineer or something?
I loved to see so much authority on the subject of alloy vs. steel wheels.

Degrees aside, in my limited experience I've seen a few dented and leaking alloy wheels, and many more dented and leaking steel wheels.

It normally takes a whack or two with a sledgehammer to fix a bent steelie, and is normally a royal pain in the ass to repair an alloy wheel. In reality, only forged alloys are repairable nearly to the original specs.

Rover steel wheels are by large margin stronger than the common-as-dirt American Racing wagon wheels. I have the former on my Rover, and the latter on my jeep. Never bent or dented or even incurred a deep scratch on a Rover steel wheel.

On a side note, if someone bends or cracks wheels in Anza-Borrego, he should get a dune buggie, not a rover. I don't know of a single trail in anza-borrego that is capable of serious vehicle damage (with reasonable driver's skill).

Peter

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 01:50 pm: Edit

"(with reasonable driver's skill)."
=> no there's an assumption begging for problems!

I don't think any claimed steel was inferior (and it's not). There are certainly applications where steel is the only way to go. The debate was over the issue that you can't run alloy wheels off-road successfully which is bullsh*t.

Good alloys are very strong. They have also gotten better over the years. Yes, alloy failure usually means the end of the wheel, but the forces necessary to kill an alloy will also kill a tire and steel wheel. You can SOMETIMES fix a steel wheel wacked back into shape, but not always.

And yes, I have seen idiots break steel wheels in Anza, and as I said, I got to watch an idiot break a steel wheel on Bronco in the Vons parking lot at Sepulveda and National. Off a curb and into a pot hole. End of story. No soup for you.

By Peter Matusov on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

"(with reasonable driver's skill)."
"=> no there's an assumption begging for problems! "

hehehe... Jeff, you seem to live in SoCal, so I guess you know that the problem is not to bend the wheel because of impact, but tear its face against the rocks. And that's where alloy wheels don't come close to steel. Most of the stuff in SoCal is decomposed granite, steel breaks it apart, aluminum gets scratched.

what's the going price for disco's alloys? something about $250 a pop?

Peter

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Actually, I got to see a FJ40 on Coyote Canyon break a steel wheel. We couldn't really help and the wheel was cracked. Offered to drive him out, but he refused and we went on to play and hike. Also saw an old Bronco break a wheel when he rolled the truck and the rim came down and flattened on a rock. With enough beer and encouragement, people can do amazing things....

Sidewall impact is the bigger problem out here. You're right. Scratching good alloys does suck. With steel, hit it with paint when you get home. But they do weigh more and that weight adds up with the larger tires.

Steel is great if your miles and miles from no where and you are completely on your own for support. That's why you see them on expedition vehicles. However, for the weekend romp, the spare on your rear door will get you home. I am not convinced that you're cutting your 4-wheeling short by running alloys.

I used to live in San Diego and spent many many days in Anza tooling around in a'69 Kaiser Jeep and a 1972 IH Scout II. We used to always try to go in July, August, and September as the heat kept people away and we had the place to ourselves. I lost interest when the trails started getting closed. On a good note, Los Coyotes might not get closed after all. The Indians are working out a "fee" deal beginning in October. Organized clubs (with the assumption that they police themselves better) will get a lower rate then single vehicles. That's a great trip. Now I live in Santa Monica. Fighting traffic to leave the city and go South can be a major PITA. We're playing at points further North now and I'm learning what goes on up here.

Jeff

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Peter - I'm a geologist, but I'm unfortunately forced to hang around with engineers on a daily basis (my staff is both geologist & engineers).

I agree that steel has it's applications, and so does alloy. If I were to habitually run 35"+ tires at 4 psi on the rocks, then I'd be looking for steel wheels (with beadlocks). If I wanted to stick with stock wheels, and still be able to tackle anything off-road, then I'd keep my alloys (which I did). If I do bash an alloy, I don't have any misconceptions about the fact that I will not be able to repair it. That's one reason I have a fifth alloy as a "spare". I've already done the steel wheel repair routine on my Jeep, and it cost me 1 shredded tire when the steel originally failed, 1 shredded finger when I was repairing the rim, 2 irregularly-worn tires resulting from rim being out-of-round even though it could still hold the bead.

I agree with you on the quality of steel - if I were to run steel wheels, I'd shop around for a full set of 5 Rover rims (already have stock steel as my secondary spare). I see no reason, however, to give up my good looking, fully functional, strong, light, stock alloy rims. I entertained the idea of putting mudders on a set of 15" steels and keeping "road tires" on my alloys, but then I remembered that I live in Arizona which is a desert that happens to be short on water which is an essential ingredient for mud. Besides, I know myself well enough to know that I'm too damn lazy to jack her up and change her shoes before I run to a trail. I also frequently find myself off-road with no prior planning, so I have to ask, "What's the use of "road tires" on a Disco?" That's kind of like "mudders" on a Ferrari, isn't it?

By Jon on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 02:32 pm: Edit

I have a cracked and bent Castor alloy wheel if anybody would like to have it.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 02:35 pm: Edit

post a picture of the failure - I'll dig up pictures of my jeep rim. I'd like your castor, it would make a nice endtable for my garage (since my wife makes me keep all my "cool" stuff out there)...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Oh no , not the "Cool" stuff..... Damn...


Kyle

By Peter Matusov on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Jeff -
a pass to Coyote Canyon may be one of the hardest trails in Anza, but I haven't so much as scratched my paint going there (in an SJ cherokee).
Maybe it's one of those FJ40 things that I wouldn't understand.
BTW, I did the El Hill two weeks ago.

Blue Gill -
sounds like the issue of steel vs. alloy depends greatly on where you live and wheel. if it's mud or sand or snow, why bother with anything besides stock alloys. if it's rocks, well, depending on where and how you drive, alloys will get damaged beyond retaining any value.
in the SW US, rocks don't get enough water to make them round and smooth like Moab or Rubicon. sooner or later, you'll wish you spent $300 for a set of four steel wheels from Rover Accessories (a price of one alloy wheel).
It is a bit of a menace to swap four wheels every time you plan to hit the trail, but with a good shop jack and air ratchet is bearable.

Peter

By Mike W on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 08:32 pm: Edit

i am going to add my 3.5 cents, next time you see ironman ivan's rig tell me what kind of wheels is he riding on.... its been awhile but the last i saw they were ALLOY...enough said!!!!!!!!

By Peter Matusov on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 08:36 pm: Edit

ironman ivan may ride on whatever he pleases, for two reasons -
(a) he's got all the money in the world, and
(b) there's nothing left in baja to scratch your wheels. you don't even need four wheel drive to do the baja 1000.

dammit, there's not even tequila left over...

peter

By LILREDROVER on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

PLEASE STOP...........

By Roverine on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Hi, kinda new here ... (I posted once before a few weeks back - "ACE REVISITED").

Oh Peter, (wistful look on my face) please don't knock Anza ... holds many a fond old memory for me (and a crappy new one too - that's where my dh wrecked the 2 right tires on our brand new '01 SE7). I will admit though, as far as Coyote Creek Canyon goes, that's where I took my (then new) 1989 Isuzu Trooper (with exception of brush bar, all stock) for it's first 4 wheel test drive - No scratches (that actually took the paint off, that is). Well, terrain changes ...

...And then you had to mention the Baja 1000 ... more OLD memories (no wisecracks please about my age, I was just a teen in those days ... dirt roads through Ensenada and all)

Thanks all, I've been "lurking" around, to glean as much as info on the Disco as I could, and you're all great with your responses. ... Now I'm driving one ... (and not just to Vons or AYSO meetings, but actually off road!)

-K
P.S. Thanks to those who (intelligently) stood up for the Alloys!

By Mike W. on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 08:07 am: Edit

hey pete i take you recommend steel over alloy!

By Mike W. on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 08:11 am: Edit

oh i forgot, there is another reason he runs alloy, unsprung weight and the fact he finishes!!!!but hey what i know i've never rover'd in the desert.

By Mike on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 10:48 am: Edit

Backyard Kyle,

If you don't want to hurt you Disco on the Rubicon with me this summer you can do what this guy did!

From the link a few back;

The ML's limited ground clearance and the marginal wheel travel make it very difficult to negotiate the Rubicon's nasty boulders. On more than one occasion we decided to TOW rather than to gun it. Forcing your way through is neither an elegant technique nor is it healthy for any of your vehicle's components. Note, that we used the super capable Mercedes Gelaendewagen for support. Since front and rear bumpers of the ML320 limit approach and departure angles - I took them off. Since the rocker panel has very little ground clearance - I carried wooden ramps with me.

Don't get me wrong: I have no intention, to badmouth the Mercedes-Benz M-Class or it's abilities. This short photo report is only to show the limits of this revolutionary new SUV. The ML's strength is definitely on pavement.

Kyle,

Just bring some ramps and I will tow you over the nasty stuff.

Your pal, Mike

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit

LOL , look man , the fact that the damn ML could get through at all , towed or not says something about the trail. I realise thats big time shit for you but cmon man.. A damn Mini van went through that shit....

Kyle

By Mike on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 10:57 am: Edit

Go to the link and look at the j**p on it's side, that could be you!

By Mike on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 11:03 am: Edit

I guess I'll have to come to MD and we can run the super tuff trails??????? And what trail would that be?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 11:04 am: Edit

That could have been me many many times. I say again , send us some of your pics. I am sure the Disco world would be in awe of the terrain you have conquered. Dont you have a site with some pics? You are a Crack head Photographer after all...

Kyle

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 11:33 am: Edit

I did some wheelin in MD a while back, and it was pretty challenging. Whats up with that MD "mud", it seemed more like cement to me, red cement. That was over a year ago, and I still cant get that shit off my boots....

By Gabe Isham (Jet992000) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Hey Ron do you stiil have an OME suspension you want to sell if so email me

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:11 pm: Edit

Yes , I dont think Mike here knows what its like to wheel in a mine field.

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Amen to that.

Try tellico or even uwharrie after a heavy rain. a foot or two of mud and you know there are sharp rocks underneeth. In VA and MD the rocks are a little smaller but red clay mud will even cake up swampers. Anyone ever done the trails in GW near Goshen? Thought about trying but I was not that advanced when I was still there.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 12:53 pm: Edit

No Ron , how much info you have on the place? I am game....

Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Kudos to Mike W. for being the first to mention "unsprung weight" as regards the alloy vs. steel debate which is intermixed with the "photographer Mike vs. Kyle debate" and, of course, the original "What to buy for $2k" question.

In addition to unsprung weight, there is another important concept, rotational weight, which I think supports alloy vs. steel.

By Ron on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Kyle I sent you an email.

The way to go is to get a set of RR alloys for cheap (200-250 a set) and use them as beater wheels if you want alloy, of course the one downside is the offset as only steel wheels are readily available wide offset.

Ron

By Collin M. Stacy (Diesel) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Ron,

If you are setting up a GW trip, count me in. I am in Roanoke, VA.

Diesel

By Peter Matusov on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 01:42 pm: Edit

to Roverine -

yes, Anza changes. A month or so back, I couldn't get through the bottom of Rodriguez Canyon truck trail (with stock tires on the Disco), which used to be a nicely graded dirt road. At the same time, once scary Oriflamme Canyon trail is now a nicely graded dirt road.

I've found a few short spur trails off Fish Creek Wash that are very very decent, making Coyote Canyon pass look easy, but those are rather "obstacles" than trails.

Speaking of Baja, it used to be more of endurance rally, like Dakar or CT, than technical wheeling. It still is, but now it's a big bucks sport, crowded with two-wheel drive sky-lifted pickup trucks. Of course, if you can make it to Cabo in a single shot, why bother taking a station wagon like a Disco...

to Mike W -
not that I am all in favor of steel wheels, it's just my broke ass cannot afford to buy a new set of alloys every year :-)

Peter M

By michel on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Common, lets face it, the steel are for poseurs who need to look good with the alloys when they get back home. Why else would you break you back with changing wheels? I've had the alloy's for 3 seasons now, been through all kinds of shit and abused, and so far they are great, no leaks but hey they have a scracht...so beware.


Michel

By Roverine on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Peter, regarding Anza:
Interesting about Truck Trail ... I was disappointed I missed that a few weeks back when our trip was cut a little short (guess now I'm not!). Okay, I shouldn't get myself going again, (.. not fair to dh ..."There but for the grace of God go I"..) but we were just coming back up the trail from Pinyon Drop (near Split Rock) back toward Fish Creek when he wrecked both tires (we camped off of one of those "spur trails/washes" in there the night prior). As far as Fish Creek and surrounding areas, it's all lovely there that time of year, (early April) and yes, I really did see a mini van (!!) on a trail to Font's Point (hate it when that happens) when we first got out there.

Kim :o)

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 08:28 pm: Edit

I do believe that you are a bit confused, as Im not so sure that changing wheels is about looking pretty. I think it may be more about changing the tires. If you had a 75 mile a day commute, would you want to do it on Swampers or M/Ts. Probably not.....

By Peter Matusov on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 09:07 pm: Edit

damn the tire and wheel threads never die :-)

Michel and Gil -
it is about swapping tires and wheels. My wife puts 50 miles a day on the disco, and besides the fact that michelins are ways nicer to have on the highway, my mudders wouldn't last me a season. And it isn't that much of back-breaking to swap four wheels, about 30 min with a floor jack and air tools. Speaking of being a poseur, I admit that, though the common (here) response to seeing black steel wheels on the disco was "why did you put that shit on your land rover?"

Kim -
check out Rodrigues Canyon, you wouldn't be disappointed. Speaking of wrecked tires, were tires wrecked or wheels? It could be both, but in these spur canyons you go so slow that a wheel failure is not very likely. And yes, those are the canyons that I had in mind.

Peter

By Roverine on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Thank God, tires only. When we got back, my guys at Land Rover also put it up on the rack and checked the under carriage for me - they really were pretty nice, considering the mood I'd been in when the coolant hose had to be replaced (at less than 1,000 miles) the day before I left. Getting home: long story behind how & where we found another tire & got it on the rim ... needless to say, it involves a well meaning and very inebriated gentleman that sells tires, trees, and rattlesnake venom, out of his junk yard (offroad) in the middle of Ocatillo Wells. A large hammer, ether, and matches were also involved ... the rim is now scratched, and used as a spare ... But, generally okay; I'm not complaining ... Hey, WE MADE IT HOME (and for "only $20.00!")!!

Kim

By michel on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 12:00 am: Edit

I'm not that confused, although some might dissagree :-). That is the story I hear all the time, if you...blah,blah,blah. I put plenty of miles on the disco to the tune of about 40K a year and my mudders (BFG)lasted longer than stock michelins and of course are less expensive to boot. Second, the mudder again BFG are very smooth up to 85MPH (unless badly worn from bent track rod).

Now I aggree that maybe not everyone simply does it so they can look pretty on monday, and even if you do, that is OK to, but stop blaming the wifes :-).

Michel

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 01:47 am: Edit

Michael, there is truth to the ol' wheel switch. I have steel black 16x7's with AT's on them for street use, then I have steel 15x7's with Bias Ply swampers for off-road use. No pretty stuff here.

I don't care about noise, but Swampers are not smooth at 85 mph, and cause mileage to drop a lot. 3-4 mpg less than AT's. Sometimes less.

I have a 90 mile non-highway daily commute. I ain't doin' it to be pretty, just to be safe and save gas money. The AT's will pay for themselves long before they are no longer useful (Chicago gas pricest are highest in the nation, last I checked).

By the way, the wife stopped driving the rover a long time ago...

Tom

By Peter Matusov on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Michael,

I might have mentioned my broke-ass approach to things. I have BFG M/Ts on my ***p, as an only set of wheels that I drive on and off the blacktop. They are fine, but reasonably noisy.

The stock Michelins on the disco are one of the best tires I've come across; I had a set of Michelins XW4s on a 4WD Aerostar that needed replacement at 118k miles. The 4x4 XPCs are an even better tire.
About BFG mudders lasting longer than stock michelins - both brands belong to and are made by Michelin, from very similar rubber compound. So the only reason for mudders lasting longer than stockers I can think of is thread depth - yeah, it will take longer to wear 17/32" down to 1/16" than it would 11/32". But - while there's little value in hiighway tires with 1/16" thread left, there's just none in mudders with the same thread. Put it this way, mudders practically lose their value as mudders when their thread depth is what highway tires start with. Mudders simply cannot be balanced as good as stock michelins can, and they are by no means designed to run at 80+ mph.
Using them a lot on the highway is just waste of money.

Speaking of price, BFG mudders cost nearly exactly the same as Michelin 4x4 XPC.

Both are the reasons I keep a set of steel wheels wrapped with dead-cheapest Futura Enforcers.

Peter M

By Ryan on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 07:42 pm: Edit

ok...I decided not to get the AR steel wheels, but instead, I will get a rear Detroit True Trac. I have had a lot of experience with the True Trac and I love it. It will keep up with a Detroit Locker anywhere.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 07:57 pm: Edit

yeah, traction device instead of wheels.
good move.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 08:48 pm: Edit

You think it will keep up with the full locker? tsk tsk tsk. In mud maybe yes but slow controlled crawling? Hell NO....

Kyle

By Ryan on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 09:00 pm: Edit

I could keep up, but with a lot more wheel spin. This was in a HUMMER meating in Texas. I had dual TTs and my friend had a DL in the back and a ARB in the front. My HUMMER kept up with his on the trail and in the 2' mud(I also had 37" swamper tsl's, he had the Goodyear Wrangler MT's). I also had the same experience with a couple of Jeeps.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 09:11 pm: Edit

Well , in mud it may as well be a locker. One is as good as another at that point.

Kyle