By AZJeepRecovery on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Does anyone know what red top model fits my D2?
Pep Boys sells them for 110!!

By Milan on Sunday, May 27, 2001 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Any one should fit as far as I know as the "standard size should be no bigger than your stock battery. Then they make a smaller size.

If you're going to replace the battery, use the Yellow Top. That'll give you deep cycle capability for use with your winch or other accessories.

By Jeremy on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 02:12 pm: Edit

So, you can use a yellow top battery in place of the red top model? Is there any disadvantage of using the yellow top over the red top then? It seems like everyone should convert then.

By Milan on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 05:43 pm: Edit

The difference is that Red Top is for starting applications only. It does not handle long, high-current draw as well as the deep cycle style Yellow Top. It is also not warrantied with winch use. The Yellow Top has more than enough CCA to start your engine and is much better suited for 4x4 accessory use, including winch.

Yes. Everyone should convert.

By Ross on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 06:57 pm: Edit

According to the local "4wheel parts wholesalers" rep...The yellow top is not made for the high amp, short cycle, strain that using it to start the engine puts on it. Over time it supposedly will degrade the yellow tops performance significantly.

This is according to the rep and I don't have personal experience with it. I chose the red top and will be adding an yellow top with the winch install. This is the setup that the Previous Owner ran on my D90. The dealership in it's infinite wisdom removed both batteries b/c it was cheaper to replace just one...hmmmmph.

Ross
97 Disco LSE
94 D90

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Why not do this the easy way.

Contact www.optimabatteries.com and ask the guys who make the battery what the best choice is.

Jeff

By Milan on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 11:50 am: Edit

That's what I did. I emailed optima. I got my info from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The only thing better than one Yellow Top are 2 or more Yellow Tops. I would use the Red Top/Yellow Top combination only if I needed really high CCA to turn the engine over on a really cold morning. The 750 CCA Yellow Top will do that just fine and with dual YT I have the option of hooking them up in parallel to get twice the power. You can't really do that with different batteries like RT/YT combo.

I also feel that a winch running at full power drains the battery more than a starter trying to turn the engine (even if it's cold outside).

By Ross on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Below is a copy of the email and subsequent response I got regarding this subject. I hope this helps to answer any questions.

"I have an 97 Land Rover Discovery with an 12K winch and other accessories. I'd like to buy one of your batteries to use. My local dealer rep told me that I wouldn't be able to use the yellow top in a single battery setup and he suggested that I buy a red top. I'd use it as a starting battery and for the winching etc... What do you recommend?

thanks in advance,"



Hello.

To be technically correct, you would need a dual setup with a redtop for starting and with a yellowtop isolated for the winch use. most people are not cycling the battery enough to use just a yellowtop as a one battery setup as they do not use their winch frequently enough (at least 2-5 times a week), so then the battery is used for starting and the yellowtop does not like this....I do not know how often you use the other accessories so, my recommendation stands...your dealer informed you correct....The redtop would handle your starting and could handle the infrequent use of accessories, just make sure your alternator or charging it with charger get it back to full charge.
Thank you for your support of Optima Batteries.
David Willman alias Willy
Customer Relations Coordinator
Government and Military Sales Coordinator
303 340-7486 direct phone
800 292-4359 x 486 toll free
303 344-9905 fax
303 995-0097 cell phone

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:32 pm: Edit

I been saying all along that those deep cycle batteries dont like that shit....

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Yes but the red tops are not really any better than a normal battery as far as full discharges. Or do like me and buy a normal battery and take it in under warantee every time it takes a dump. 50 bucks at Sam's club. Then again a yellow top would be cooler.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Who is completely discharging these damn things? If they are getting completely discharged something aint right....

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:17 pm: Edit

All it takes is to pull yourself out of a really big mudhole or have to winch several people over an obstical in succession (seen it, the truck will stall from the lack of juice when the winch is engaged). Alternatively you could just leave the lights on overnight or decide to run all your accessories (you know the 800 watt stereo, ARB fridge, AC, and the 8 hellas) and go for a long trail ride. Do it a couple times with a red top and it is junk. Do it to a yellow top or blue top and they laugh it off. Moreover anything more than say a 50% drain will hurt a red top and that I could see happening with moderate winch use.

Ron

So the question is: Are you a flake or a heavy winch user? If so get a yella top.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Hmmm , I have winched and winched and winched some more , hard pulls. If you are seeing it something aint right I tell ya. I have also killed the red top numerous times and it never seemed to mind much.
Hell week end before last Ax winched maybe 10 times back to back without a problem. I winch all the damn time with the truck turned off and dont have a problem. I wonder about the crowd you are running with Ron

Kyle

By Wesley on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:22 pm: Edit

What is the difference between the blue and yellow top deep cycles?, and will either work in a Disco?
Thanks
Wesley

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Thats just it , you dont want a deep cycle battery. Just get the regular old Red top if you want an optima...

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Well Kyle,

I dunno. Maybe it was because the guy had 4 big hella's on top and they were on all night or maybe his battery was on the way out. But doing the math it does not take long with a heavy pull to drain a battery.

"I have also killed the red top numerous
times and it never seemed to mind much."

Sure it still will start the truck but I bet the capasity is way down I bet.

Blue is marine. It has an extra set of terminals which is nice to connect accessories (read winch, lights) without making the terminals look like medusa. It would fit on a DII or a DI fine. Otherwise it is just a yellow top in design.

Ron

PS I don't necessarily "run" with these people but I do tend to stop and watch a lot of stupidity when I am out.

By Milan on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 06:00 pm: Edit

FWIW, I have been using a regular starter acid batery for heavy winching and no problem so far. Yeah, they work but when they take a dump it happens fast and usually it's the first winching that goes well and on the second one you find there's no juice. Then your truck dies. No thanks.

As Ron mentioned, winching will kill the Red Top as it discharges it more than starting. Optima does not even warranty Red Top if you use it for your winch, so I'm kind of surprised Willy even suggested it. He's the gent I talked to.

Blue Top and Yellow Top are the same except for the terminals (even though the web site has them with different recharge rates, they're identical internally).

Either Yellow or Red Top will not allow you to use the GM-style terminals for a winch (or you will burn the internal connections). This just confirms that winches draw more power than starters.

The only deep cycle batteries that don't like starting much are regular RV/marine batteries built for long low current draw (trolling, lights, radios, etc.). Winching or starting is not good for these as it discharges them quicker and deeper.

Maybe these are the batteries Kyle is refering to.

I still say get the Yellow Top or Blue Top and you won't be sorry. I'm sure that even if the Red Top is not warrantied for winch use it will handle it better than regular acid starting battery but the deep cycle YT/BT is just better for such use.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Hmmm , I guess I should tell my red top that it really isnt doing what it seems to have been doing. Seems I have a damn pouser battery...

Kyle

By Ross on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 09:57 pm: Edit

The true story here is get them both(good for optima). Again, according to the local rep, using the yellow top as an starting battery will void the warranty. So here we have an Optima factory rep saying to use the red top for occasional winching etc...and definitely not recommending the yellow top as a starting battery. I think I'll take the factory rep's advice and not worry about it...Two optima's are in my future.

Ross

By welder on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 12:48 am: Edit

Was that factory rep a salesman as well?
With some fancy title like Top Dog Tech Master?

By Moe on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:14 am: Edit

Kyle, let me know when you will be tossing that pouser red top out your window. From what I hear Kyle's trash is another man's treasure. Anyone looking for $G products?

By Milan on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 11:14 am: Edit

Like I said,
I think the Red Top (just like your stock battery) is fine for winching use but the Yellow Top is better. Ask the rep what he would recommend for a single battery setup with lot of winch use in its future. I bet he won't suggest the RT. And he won't say that YT is not good for starting.

You believe the rep and so do I. Same guy, different recommendation for different use.

Also as far as dual batteries go, if you use a RT&YT combo, you do have to use an isolator. With dual YT, you can use it also or you can hook them up in parallel for more power and reserve.

Anyway, you guys do what you want. I'm sure your battery will be fine for the occasional winching.

By Milan on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 11:16 am: Edit

Ross,
I just realized you mentioned local rep. I was refering to Willy from Optima above.

By Jon on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 01:54 pm: Edit

I use a single Duralast Gold battery for starting/winching. Its rating is 1000 CA/900 CCA, and it's a pretty strong deep-cycle battery. I also use a manual throttle lock to high-idle the engine when I'm winching a lot (or any at all for that matter). Never have I had a problem draining the battery significantly or whatever seems to be the problem people are having with these Optima batteries. Maybe I'm just lucky?

By Jon on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 01:55 pm: Edit

P.S. It was about $80 or something at AutoZone, and has a 3-year replacement warranty I think.

By Ron on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Champion 4x4 $45 at Sam's club 1000CA 900CCA 72 month warentee 24 free replacement
Champion Titanium 900CA 750CCA $45 at Sam's 90month warantee 30month free replacement really long reserve capasity (why I got it)

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Champion batteries are pretty good stuff. They seem to have faded in popularity over the years though. I gues they just werent "Cool"....

Kyle

By ron on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit

http://www.antiqueautobattery.com/g27l.htm

Disco's next battery. It has 780CCA

Ron

By Crack Head Mike says backyard Kyle on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 02:26 am: Edit

I must go with Kyle on this one. I love my red top, but I do keep my engine running when winching to help keep it from getting low. Check out sunnbattery.com (or batteries.com) for Optima. Sunn's price is about $40+. less than 4 Wheel Parts.

By Milan on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 11:34 am: Edit

So how many Yellow Tops have you seen killed by being used as a starter battery?

Just wondering...

While your RT will be fine for winching, repeated deep discharges will shorten its life more than that of the YT.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 11:39 am: Edit

Optima needs to make an "Orange Top" battery to satisfy all you anal retentive winchers!

By Ron on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 11:45 am: Edit

They do make an orange top. I forgot what it is for though.

Ron

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 11:51 am: Edit

oh, I was just being a smart ass I see a red top for main battery (start-up) and blue top for all the extras in my future...

By ron on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 11:57 am: Edit

oh, I was just being a smart ass

and so was I.

Ron

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit

damn! you got me

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Yes Milan but I havnt suffered any battery drain at all. Just a few week ends ago I had the RE running while I was in a hole full of NJ poop. A few of us wanted to see if I could break the pull pal so I got stuck up to my ass and hooked it up. I winched and winched and winched all the way up until the RE stalled even. Then I reached over and hit the key and turned the truck off almost imediately after. I got out and looked at the wall of mud that was up to my headlights and decided that I wasnt going out that way. Ax came around behind me to winch me back and I got in , hit the key and it started right up , no drag , no lag , just spun right up and started. I aint seeing that its getting cycled that deep... You dig?

Kyle

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Actually, intermittent high-rate pulse discharge (ie periodic winching) is fine for the Red Top. If you're using accessories all the time, the Yellow Top is the way to go.

One of the key issues regarding the choice of the Red Top versus Yellow Top is the charging system. As the battery will be subject to constant/immediate charge (your vehicles charging system) under almost all conditions, the Red Top is fine. If you use the battery with the vehicle off or in a condition where it will not be immediately recharged, the Yellow Top is your battery. The Yellow Top is frequently called for usage in applications where a number of accessories are running at a rate that the battery charge system cannot adequately cope with. If you're running for hours on end with lights blazing, GPS on, and then winching over obstacles, you're over taxing the charge system and need a deep cycle cell (the Yellow Top). If you go out for weekend runs, don't have 4~6 high power driving lamps running, and only use the winch infrequently, the Red Top will be able to cope just fine. Neither battery is subject to "battery memory".

I'm sorry. I spent 7 years in the rechargeable battery manufacturing industry. I've heard more rumors and myths then I care to remember at times. Batteries are a science, not black magic. It's also a marketing dream land full of BS, mis-information, and general ignorance.

By Mike S. on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Thanks for all the info. I am going up around that wimpy little trail (says Kyle) called the Rubicon. I am taking a canoe and a 12v trolling motor. I have a red top in my truck but I am thinking about getting a yellow for trolling. I will charge it with jumper cables off my truck every evening, what do you think? Should I get the Y top for this use?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Yes , yellow top for the tolling motor. Try not to get hit by any mini vans while there...


Kyle

By Milan on Thursday, May 31, 2001 - 08:41 pm: Edit

Yeah, Kyle I dig. It is when you do stuff like that repeatadly (i.e you also winching not just yourself but your buddies). Even this will be handled by the red top gracefully but it will shorten it's life. The question is how much. Will you only get 3 or 5 years out of that battery instead of 6? Or only 7 instead of 10. Who knows?


Additionally, what's important is how the re-charge is handled (basically what Jeff said, thanks Jeff).

Ron and Bill,
They do make an Orange Top. It's reverse polarity starter battery.