By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 10:39 am: Edit

What is the general public opinion on the warn HS9500i?

Tom

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit

FAST

By Ron on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 10:54 am: Edit

REALLY FAST.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:14 am: Edit

is that BAD?

By Ron on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:24 am: Edit

Use one and you will see. It spools in like 4ft after you take your finger off the controller. The new 8274-50 is the same way. Hard to get the wire on right. Too fast for me, I am uncordinated. RE is too slow. Husky 8 is my happy medium.

Ron

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:26 am: Edit

what timing, hehe...

this unbiased test clearly shows the facts.


http://www.winchtest.com/test.html

-rd

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:50 am: Edit

Rob, I am not defending the Warn winch at all, but unbiased? Come on! Obviously that test was paid for by MileMarker. That is a private organization out to make money. I hope they test every winch. They will probably be able to fail them with hanus results.

Registrant Information for winchtest.com: Milemarker, Inc.
725 Kalama River Rd.
Kalama, Wa 98625
US

By Mike R. on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 12:38 pm: Edit

Tom, I put on a Milemarker 9000 lb. winch about a month ago. Next weekend I'll have some time to try to get stuck. I'll let you know my opinions. I know most people have had good luck with Warns, but my brother's XD9000i started smoking on an easy pull - winding up the cable. It was only 1.5 yrs. old and used 4 times. Go figure.

Mike

By nadim on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 12:45 pm: Edit

I have used a HS9500 warn, on my freinds' D110, and to tell you the truth, it is fast, very fast...as the winch controller of that recovery situation, i was not comfortable with that, and the cable did still spool in after i took my tumb off the trigger.
I am currently inclined to get the RE10,000, or the Platinum 9,000. Unfortunately, there are no Huskys in my country, sisnce I wanted to go for the 10,000.
The best winch for the Discovery in my opinion is the superwinch X9.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 01:03 pm: Edit

What a nice time for a winch talk. The RE is the leader Ron must I force you to admit it? THe little warns are ok if you dont need the thing to do as advertised for any period of time.. The HS spools nice but its just anohter little smoker. Yes I think the mile marker tests will be bullshit but it will give you an idea of what does what. They have to atleast do that..

Kyle

By Alex on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 01:10 pm: Edit

I have a Husky 10, and while it's still new and I have used it only a couple of times, it has performed very well. Pulls strong, speed is very nice - not too fast, but fast enough that I don't have to wrap the cable around my brushbar so as not to hold up progress on the trail. Oh, and it doesn't sound like its about to explode when it's working like every warn I've ever seen. Downsides: big, heavy, expensive.

-Alex

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit

did i say unbiased? i meant to leave the "un" off of the that...

hehehe

it does make you wonder though

;0)
rd

By nadim on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 09:01 am: Edit

Any one has any complaints on the Superwinch X9?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Yes , it always sounds like its about to blow up. I aint buying that 11.9 K stall rating. Thats crap. THe speed aint bad. I am waiting to see how it fairs in the milemarker test... I am guessing the most of the planetaries come in about the same.. accept the mile marler ofcourse

Kyle

By Mike B. on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 04:00 pm: Edit

I have the X9. I haven't used it enough to tell how durable it is. The plug in for the controller seems a little weak. I emailed SuperWinch and they got right back to me with a few suggestions. He told me to call him if I had any more questions. Seems like customer service is pretty good.

I always try to run the winch for a couple of minutes after I submerge the winch (deep water crossings, etc.). Apparently, the motors on most winches are not sealed and will corrode quickly. According to what I was told, the key is to get the motor hot to burn off any mosture after getting it wet.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Mike B. on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Make that moisture, not mosture.

I miss spell check!

By Chris Browne on Sunday, July 01, 2001 - 12:38 am: Edit

I have the Ramsey Plat 9500 - it and the HS 9500i are virtual clones -
these are fast probably too fast - be nice to have a slow speed when re spooling the wire.
Very important to run a winch on a regular basis to check its operation -
Good idea to have it serviced periodically to remove all the gunk

By Ron on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 03:11 am: Edit

The RE is the leader Ron must I force you to admit it?

Too slow for me Kyle, like watching astroturf grow, otherwise fine winch. staying out of this one.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 04:00 am: Edit

You are correct , astro turf might grow a little faster. The poodles have some issues though that I dont really like. All in all a decent winch I think but some key things that make it weak. Certainly better then the planetaries out there...


Kyle

By Ron on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 04:06 am: Edit

The poodles?

Huh?

Ron

By Ron on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 04:06 am: Edit

Nevermind I figured it out

Poodle=husky

Both are dogs.

ROn

By Alex on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 07:56 am: Edit

Such as what, Kyle?

By al hang on Monday, July 02, 2001 - 06:41 pm: Edit

I think that the Warn is one of the most overhyped winches of all time and if you plan on getting a warn, get the M12000. The little ones seem to buckle under pressure. The Ramsey RE's are awesome, save your money and get the best. If I could get a Ramsey for the price I got my Warn, I would have. The Superwinch is the worst (excluding the Husky) winch of all electrics. As far as speed, I don't think it should be a factor when purchasing a winch. Anything is faster than pushing, using a Hi-lift, or hand winches. You want good weather resistant solenoids, worm gears for strength, easy servicing, plenty of THICK cable. Cheap winches are expensive to fix. I think the best winches when you factor in everything are as follows:

1.Ramsey RE - Used by tow truck operators, and I've seen Kyle winch all day (3 trucks) with no problem.
2. Husky - Only reason it is second is because it usually costs more than the Ramsey.
3. Warn - Standard winch, can be found cheap but don't believe the ratings.
4. Superwinch - a joke. Bad easily corroded solenoids, thin cable and not enough of it.
5. Milemarker - really high cost when you factor in the adapters for a disco. plus gas engines cut out too easily in the wet stuff. (this was actually my number one choice for a while, till a friend help me see the light)

By Mike R. on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 03:15 am: Edit

Al,

What do mean high costs for the Milemarker? I bought mine for $800 including the fittings. Unless you mean the PTO system & pump setup, I don't know what you're getting at. There are two downsides to the Disco / Milemarker setup:
1. The power steering pump is weak. This gives the Milemarker about 7500lbs pull.
2. Like you said, If the engine isn't running, no winch. But how much time do you get with an electric if the car isn't running?

The nice thing is the reliability / confidence of the Milemarker. They can literally run all day. Warns (9000) sound like they are getting ready to explode. The idea of a winch getting so hot that you can barely touch it scares me.
All things considered, If I knew the advantages of a worm electric, that is the way I would have gone. It ticks me off that I bought a 9000lb. winch, but I only get a 7500 lb winch. I dont want to have to spend the $700-$1000 for a PTO system/pump/resevoir/hoses,valves to make it a real winch.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 04:02 am: Edit

THats what Al is talking about , the extra cash you have to spend to make the mile marker a contender.
As far as the poodle is concerned. Pull a brand new one right out of the box and remove the back brace and fairlead. Once you do that the winch will fall apart into multiple pieces. It has no back bone. Having a main shaft running through the drum is key to having a stable system. The Husky does not have this and therefore is demoted to poodle...

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 04:40 am: Edit

The mount is supposed to hold it together. I don't see that is particular as a major weakness, but to each his own. I did freak me out when it happened. I will be happy to pull anyone out with the Koenig on my series when all the electrics fail and the hydraulic lines burst or the engine dies (and don't give me any crap about the series not running that puppy will still run in 3ft of water). I don't see Al's point about the X9 being crappier than the warns. X9 seems to be a tad better than the XD9000i when we compared the two (and I have the warn so I am not biased). I am happy with the winches I have now but I have a line on an RE(ally slow) 10000 with a bad motor so maybe I will get that to play with too.

Ron
Superwinch Poodle 8
Koenig
Capstan
XD9000i
Bellview
Old Warn

Yes I have a problem, no I don't want to sell any of them

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 04:53 am: Edit

Ron , it is a majior weakness , the winch will not remain true in its mounts. And the load isnt distributed very well at all.

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 04:59 am: Edit

the winch will not remain true in its mounts

The poodle mounts front and bottom. You telling me a bumper is weaker than those stupid chrome bars on top of the non-i winches? Being that most winches mount with 4 7/16th grade 5 bolts, I think the husky has a one up. Never heard of any problems related to it, but you do hear of bent mounts not allowing free spool on the planetaries.

I dunno, if it breaks I have spare winches

Ron

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:24 am: Edit

Take a look on the rigs at a ARCA event and Warn will have the most by a longshot. These guys play for keep$ . The warn 8274-50 and the HS-9500 are on 95% of all the rigs . Your winch can be the difference between going home with the prize money or going home in last place. Yes I'm a happy HS-9500I owner.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:25 am: Edit

Oh no , as I stated earlier , I think the poodle is much better then the planetary options out there and not just for the reasons you mention there. And yes , I know it gets the job done. I am aware of its mounting . Think about that mounting. You are relying on the tightness of those bottom bolts to keep it true. You think you can tighten those four bolts in an aluminum case enough so that the winch doesnt move under the strain of its advertised stall? I dont think so. Look at the mounting points on the RE , they are very simple. It doesnt have to be very complicated cause the winch has a rigid back bone going through it. I aint saying the Husky is a bad thing. I am just saying that for the money it should be built better . The ramsey is built better and is cheaper. Figure that out...

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:27 am: Edit

Those guys run those because time counts and they are the fastest winches. I like the 8274 (I have two early winches that preceded it).

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

The little warn winches are toys. They get smoked constantly. The boys in the events need speed and thats what they get with those two winches. They dont really need to last long now do they? Again comparing apples to oranges...

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:41 am: Edit

You are relying on the tightness of those bottom bolts to keep it true.

Its not like the holes are oval. The holes are exactly the size of the bolts, there is no play there, and if you include the front mounts it is plenty strong.

I am not sure exactly how an RE mounts but I can tell you everything else I have seen mounts like crap compared to the Koenig and to a lesser extent the husky. Koenig mounts with 8 1/2in bolts to a full cage type frame which then mounts to the bumper via about 4 1/2 bolts two giant clamps and some smaller bolts. That makes me feel good. Even the foot forward ones I worry about.

The poodle costs more because it has a better motor, and IMO a better quality case, although the gear housing looks stronger on the RE. It is not that much of a price difference either. An RE(ally slow)10000 goes for about 800 and a Poodle 10 goes for about 1000. Now if you want a 12k worm then you have no choice.

Ron

By wbsa on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:49 am: Edit

How about the M15000?
I think it's got all of the above beat?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:49 am: Edit

Yes the Gear case is really pretty!!! But how many gear case failures have you seen? None... The Husky is mounted just like a planetary . Its mounted that way for the same reasons and can suffer the same problems. The fairlead and back brace prevent this to some extent. But these are patches for the lack of rigidity engineered into the winch itself.

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:55 am: Edit

As far as Cost Ron , you can get the RE 12 for under a grand and you can get it right now. Ho and I waiting for quite a long time to get this poodle that I have for disection...and it was well over a grand all said and done..

Kyle

By michel on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 06:51 am: Edit

Al, if you changed your mind because of cost, fine. As far as engine cut out in the wet thats bullshit. If you get an electric for that particular scenario you are going to be dissapointed. The warn is useless under water. A friend got his d90 stuck with the nose down under water winch half submerged. The thing wouldn't even start. On messy trails, were wading, mud and the likes is part of the trail, the electrics just get all full of crap, and by the time you need it, it's already dead or dying.

The only winches I've seen that survive all situations are the fully sealed units. Like the stock 101 winch, the capstan series winch, and the milemarker hydraulic winches.

The RE sounds like it can pull, but I've had no direct expericance with it maintance wise, so I'll give it the benifit of the doubt.

Michel

By al hang on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:10 am: Edit

michel, for a gas engine I think the electric is the way to go. The engines do cut out too easy when wet, now if you are in a country that gets the diesel engine than forget what i just said. The milemarker is a great winch, if you got an engine that won't cut out on you. But it gets really expensive when you add the Winch+fitting kit+all new lines+heavy duty pump and bracketry. About your friend's 90, have him check the way the solenoids are wired, a lot of them came wired incorrectly like Axel's and mine. If you have to you can winch pretty far on battery power alone.
Anyway, i'm not trying to bash anyone's choice of equipment and most of what I think works comes from experience on the east coast.

-al

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:14 am: Edit

Micheal, have you ever tried to use a capstan? They are about as effective for vehicle recovery as a bowling ball and a piece of string. They are also only good for 4000lbs and take skill and coordination to use or else you melt the rope. Try making one work with water on the drum.

You can hot wire an electric and it will work under water. The RE husky and 8274 all are lubed with oil (not grease like the planetaries, so all you have to do is drain and refill after wheeling in mud/water and you get most of the crap out). You can waterproof the motor housings with a little RTV but I am not sure if it will do much good. MM are fine its just w/o the PTO pump it is really at or beyond the operating limit of the p/s system. It also make it really slow (like the RE). The PTO pump is cool but it is expensive and hangs down where it can be damaged.

Ron

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

Al and Axel - please elaborate further on the winch solenoids coming mis-wired. I'm curious because I know Axel has the M12K (as do I) - but I've had no real chance to test it's mettle yet but am concerned if it was done incorrectly.

Thanks,
Bill B

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:24 am: Edit

its just a matter of rearanging which wires got put on top of each other on the main lead coming in. I fixed Als but cant remember exactly which stud it was...

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:31 am: Edit

Now Thumper is trying to make me feel like I am old and My memory is bad,,,,

Kyle

By al hang on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:38 am: Edit

Just check the way the solenoids are wired, pay careful attention to the way the positive wire is attached to the solenoid. The way mine and Axel's was wired, current had to pass thru a couple of plates and washers before getting to the solenoid. I know of 3 M12000's bought within the same month that had the same problem. You wouldn't think something as little as this would cause problems but Axel's winch could barely pull a person when he first got it. It pulled fine after moving that crap around.

-al

By michel on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:43 am: Edit

Please, somebody tell me who has actually winched with an electric while it was submerge completely under water. And wich winch it was.

The PTO pump is cool, yes indeed, very cool. But it does NOT hang low where it can be damaged. You have more luck tearing out the transfer case than even touching the PTO.

The gas engine is quite good under water. In fact, this weekend the Disco survived a water crossing that a diesel died in. So far, anything short of hydroloc has been good. So, if water is in your territory, more the reason for not going electric.

Al, no bashing here, and same experiance from the east cost. You are correct about the cost...it adds up.

Ron, the 109 guy I wheel with has a mechanical PTO winch, not a capstan. I aggree the capstan would get old real quick. It's nice that the winches you mentioned can be drained of oil and refilled to get the crap out, but that gets old too, expecially when doing a multiday trail, and you find out it needs this maitenance has you try to use it to get out of a mud bath....

Michel

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:50 am: Edit

Michel , have you thought that if its sealed enough to keep the oil in then its sealed enough to keep everything else out?

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:57 am: Edit

"the 109 guy I wheel with has a mechanical PTO winch, not a capstan."

Ok now I see. Yes, I would put my Koenig PTO series winch against anything. Put the tranny in first and you get about a 35hp winch. The crank driven one is ok but the one with the real PTO off the back of the T-box is a beast.

It is preventiitve maintainance, drain and refill. No biggy maybe takes 5mins. Not everytime but once in a while. Can't do that with a planetary. And if you get mud in grease it turns to a thick paste a little water/mud in the oil is no biggy.

When I was looking at the Maxi drive PTO I was told by maxi drive that it hung off the back of the Tbox and extended a few inches down. What this looks like in real life and if it is in any danger I dunno.

ROn

By michel on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:58 am: Edit

You would think :-)

But everyone I wheel with, end up having to service their winch after a trail. It's always full of grit, mud and water. The superwinch lasted one outing and needed a new motor...the warn caught fire, the other warn died and was useless, again another warn had solonoid problem...hehehe this is one trail. pieces of shit I tell you.

Now there was worm drive winch one time, I think a small ramsey that lasted a whole trail, but that is inconclusive to me until a couple of years from now and lots more trails.

Michel

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 08:01 am: Edit

Michel , have you thought that if its sealed enough to keep the oil in then its sealed enough to keep everything else out?

Keep believing that. Put a hot winch in water and it will suck it in. The oil I drained looked like greyish brown mayo. The stuff out of the 8274 looked like mustard, non-detergent motor oil (brass bushing or something) prevents that from happening.

Ron

By michel on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 08:02 am: Edit

No danger whatsoever. Look at the cover plate on the back of the transfer case. It's way upthere, it clears the floor with only a couple of inches from the top. The best possible location. The PTO is the same size has the cover plate, just thicker.

Michel

By Mike R. on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

Ron, here's a picture:

By Ron on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 08:15 am: Edit

So it angels up not down. Guy who responded to my email question must have had it wrong. To bad it is expensive, although with the exchange rate now it might be cheaper.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 08:16 am: Edit

Mine hasnt been contaminated at all Ron and its been submerged completely more then a few times.. The RE does have little ball bearing type breathers on it that could possibly let some in if it sat there long enough I suppose. But as you stated , a little water in the oil is no biggie at all...Who knows about the 8274 I still dont like them , the only run ins I had with them left me unimpressed...

Kyle

By Nadim on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 10:26 am: Edit

Kyle...
How DOES the RE mount..thinking of getting the RE10 for me...
Thanks

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 12:36 pm: Edit

HAs four bolts acrost the front , two for the fairlead and two that are 2.5 " furhter out..

Kyle

By Moe on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 12:45 pm: Edit

For the RE, there are four along the front and four along the back. Nadim, take a look at my write up on the RE and ARB bumper in the tech section.

By nadim on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 12:48 pm: Edit

I was just doing that MOE...wish there was a clearer picture though...very good write-up...thx!
nadim

By nadim on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 01:00 pm: Edit

so in total 8 bolts?
wow that is alot?

By Alex on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Kyle - ever seen a Husky fail? Has anyone else?

By Milan on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 03:07 pm: Edit

A great discussion as usual...

I would just like to add a few comments:

1) I have an old M8000 (predecessor of 8274) XD9000 and my buddies have XD8000i/9000i. We all had run these winches completely submerged on more than one occasion and they did work without a hitch.

2) I service mine on regular basis and while it's more complicated than draining oil from the worm gear ones, it's no big deal. I think keeping planetaries greased and clean is a key to reliable winching when needed.

3) The spur gear Warn M8000 (predecessor of 8274) never needed an oil change in 4 years of running through rivers and mud. I did grease the bearing on the side opposite to the motor.

4) On both of my winches I have sealed the
motors. On the XD9000 crud still gets in around the shaft inside the drum.

5) Warn, here in Canada, is cheaper than anything else, so it's the most widely spread brand. Their customer service is second to none. The planetary Ramseys don't seem to last as long as the Warns here. On the other hand the Warn planetaries seem to be unsuitable for synthetic ropes while other brands, namely Ramseys, seem to do just fine. Or so I'm told.

6) We use electrics beacuse we have had quite a few cases of dead engines in deep water/mud and the electric usually has enough power to pull the vehicle out saving us from major repairs due to water damage.

7) Gas better than diesel in water? Well my Disco just croaked today after I washed the engine. I had to get towed. And yes I know not to spray watter under high pressure directly into any of the plugs/sensors. Does it mean I can't wash the engine at all. Probably but I find that a complete BS on an "off-road" vehicle.

All that said, I just picked up a used Ramsey worm gear winch without a motor today. I'll take a very close look at it before deciding what to do with it.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Alex there arent that many Husky,s out there really. How often do you see a truck with one on it? Then , think about how many actually use/abuse the thing. I say abuse becuase you never judge anything in life when conditions are perfect. Always judge how they perform when everything has gone completely wrong..
Again , I dont think they are bad winches , I think they are far better then the planetary options out there right now. My problem is the price tag that comes along with it and what you are really getting for that. Ron says it has a better motor. Well , Ron read that somewhere , one winch motor is pretty much the same as the next.They will all fry at some point and the cost of replacement then comes into play. You can get the prestolite motor for the Ramsey for under 100 bucks if you shop around. How much is that very special motor that comes on the Huskey Ron? It has to carry a very special prica tag ...
Another thing is parts interchangeability. All the model ramseys have the same shit in them. You can take most of the parts (Aside from gears) out of any other rated RE and stick it in another of different rating. THe 8 has the same 1" mainshaft as the 12 does and the housing is all the same. Thatsa nice thing. I recently took parts out of one 20year old RE (An RE 12) and put in an RE 8K.That is a beautifull thing...

Kyle

By Alex on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Problem with the RE--besides the speed -- is finding a bumper to put it on. I'm not aware of anyone in the Rover aftermarket that makes one. I read Ian Moe's writeup on installing an RE12 on an ARB bumper - expensive and time consuming--but then again I guess we're not into this shit because it's cheap.

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Maybe RoverTym's new bumper will be able to fit this winch.. I hope so as from what I hear I would rather have a slow working winch then a non-working winch. Better to take a while to get there then to not get there at all.. Not trying to get anyone going just my opinion.. And you know what they say about opinions..

By Ross on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Well,

I have the Ramsey RE 12 and bought it because of the worm gear. I found it brand new on ebay for way less than a grand. There is a problem finding bumpers for it to go into. But our dear friend Kyle is putting an end to that. His new bumper should be out soon so that all of us Ramsey folks can have a bolt up option. I'm not sure of the details yet but the winch bumpers are gonna be available through another site. Stay tuned... Oh and by the way my RE 12 is holding down my garage floor waiting for the right Disco to go on.

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 05:34 pm: Edit

"Al and Axel - please elaborate further on the winch solenoids coming mis-wired. I'm curious because I know Axel has the M12K (as do I) "

I'm a little behind on my posts here, Bill...
Anyway, I have the M12K, mounted on an ARB. When I installed it, and tested it in the driveway, everything was fine. However, the first time I put a slight load on it, it would overheat and stall almost right away. It turned out that in the solenoid box, on one of the solenoid connection studs, one tiny control wire was put on the connector stud first, then one of the thick wires was connected on top of it. They were both connected to the same stud, but the small connector being put on the stud first was enough to prevent sufficient current to go through the big wire. Undoing the bolt on the connector, taking both wires off, and then attaching the thick one first, then the little one on top fixed the problem. Now I can pretty much winch all day without a problem.

This verbose explanation is somewhat confusing, maybe I need to take some pictures...

On a separate winch realated note, I was watching A&E's Investigative Reports on Chappaquiddick earlier tonight. Interestingly, Ted Kennedy's car was actually recovered by a Land Rover, there was a photo of a red 109 winching his car out. I couldn't tell what kind of winch it was though, since the picture was taken from behind the 109.

By Ali on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 04:14 am: Edit

I think someone mentioned the Ramseys on tow trucks...aren't they PTO winches? I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples. Even the MM winch with a large pump and reservoir will kick ass on an electric all day long - provided the engine is running.

I s'pose winches, like wenches, are based on personal taste. We're all scarred with the past experience of some type of winch/wench. Sorry, trying to lighten things up a bit!

I have a M10,000 on the ARB. Considering most of my pulls are less than 5', having a 125' cable is a waste. I'm thinking 75' is sufficient. I bet most winches would work better with a shorter cable on the drum. The extra cable can be stowed n the back for those really long pulls. I used to have a Warn 5000 on my pickup that worked for years. I did have to replace one of the solenoids due to corrosion on the 5000. Warn does seem to have a good service dept. Ultimately, which company has the best after the purchase service would be my first choice. You can rebuild a Warn youself with parts from the factory or just send it in for a rebuild. If I could've fit the 8274 on my ARB w/o hacking up the grill I'd have done it years ago. I don't have any experience with other branks unfortunately.

Just another opinion.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 04:19 am: Edit

Ali , the version on tow trucks is just a Hydraulic RE , thats the only difference , the motor. THey also come in two speeds as well. Ramsey also has an RPH which is a hydraulic planetary like the Mile marker , I have a feeling that wont be getting tested on that winch site.

Kyle

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 04:28 am: Edit

Good point Kyle,

Once you have the hydraulics all setup, you can choose from any hydraulic winch on the market. No need to restrict yourself to the MM. Although, I've been very happy with the abuse taken by the MM, same with the aftersales service, and now with the new "military" valve that handles 8GPM well....

Michel

By Moe on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 05:04 am: Edit

Here is a little write-up on a winch comparison test. Unfortunately the RE was not there to contend. Seeing all this shit fail at less than half capacity is a bit of a worry.

http://www.fte.co.uk/Mile2.htm

Alex, I agree that right now without an off the shelf compatible bumper, the biggest hassle with the RE is the extra time and money involved in an install. But it’s a trade-off. Put the effort in now and save the hassle and $ of trouble on the trail.

By JEEPETR on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 05:25 am: Edit

Not to incite a riot or anything, But as far as your comment on used and abused Kyle,

"Alex there arent that many Husky,s out there really. How often do you see a truck with one on it? Then , think about how many actually use/abuse the thing. I say abuse becuase you never judge anything in life when conditions are perfect. Always judge how they perform when everything has gone completely wrong.. "

You have heard of and seen the Camel Trophy Series, right? You belive you use and abuse your Ramsey Re harder than those guys did the Huskies? I don't buy it, sorry...

~Scott T.
'95 D-90 (JEEPETR)
'96 Discovery (New addition to the Addiction!)

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 05:32 am: Edit

Michel , it flat wont run with the engine off and that is a huge black mark on it. I know the argument that the electric also wont do much with the engine off and I have proved it wrong plenty of times. You atleast have to admit the possilbility that the electric offers a form of mobility even if the engine is off. THat is enough to turn in its favor.The hydraulic will outwinch the electric over and over in ideal circumstances but how about a test with the engine off? How about I went through a creek and the engine stalled right on the opposite bank leaving the nose up and the ass end submerged deep because of it? THe Mile Markers superior qualities are going to leave me with one wet ass passenger compartment that will sit and soak in it until I can get the truck running enough for the winch to work. How about I stall in the creek , the winch and all are under and I need to move 5 feet to get the nose up. If I dont get the nose up I aint getting shit. Is there any possibility at all that the Mile marker can save me from this situation? Now , is there any possibility at all that an electric can save me from this? NEXT!
I have flopped my disco on its side , I am in the woods alone and I have a mile marker winch. Can the winch solve this problem for me? How about an electric? I think those reasons should suffice..

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 05:39 am: Edit

LOL , Scott how long did they use the winches? How many days was that? Yes , I have used mine much longer... HAnds down , Harder? Yeah , that too.. THey had a winch for each truck. Many times I have to winch me and several other trucks.....You rate things on how they perform over several days? Is that good enough for you that your winch will last several days?


Kyle

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 06:14 am: Edit

When all chips are down, you electric boys always come up with the "hey I'm in water and the engine is dead" argument. hehe, If their's one thing on that rover that dosen't seem to break it's the damn engine. I've never been stranded because of an engine related problem, so for all intents and purposes, since it's the most reliable part of my rover, why not use it as the power source for the winch?

You think I wheel in the dessert? I do plenty of wading, and too often, deeper than is recomemded :-), but still the engine plugs away.

So here we are, choose between something that will only run when the engine works (99.997%) of the time, and something that will only work when the electrical system works ... and hope that the thing will actually work under water to boot when the engine does not...usualy the engine stalls because of the electrical shit. The situation that is more familiar, is the stupid winch wont work/or pull you out when you need it the most.

So lets assume you are dead in the water, for example this litle water crossing I just did over the weekend. The thing is about 60 yards accross, and just about the limit of the wading if done right. So the diesel d90 goes in and dies 1/3 in. Can he winch himself to the other side with is warn...forget it. If he had a ramsey whatever, could he make it throught? I dont think so, if the ramsey or whatever still works ( I would have to see it :-)) I doubt it will pull you out of there 80' on battery power...

So, in reality, youre talking about a .0004% chance of drowning your engine in a 4' accross puddle, that your setup can handle. hehe I much prefer the odds of mine pulling me through the 80' of waleshit totaly submerged everytime.

In the end, there's the possibility that whatever winch setup you have will not work, and a backup is required. In my case, it's less often.

Michel

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 06:26 am: Edit

A picture of the crossing in questions



Michel

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 06:35 am: Edit

The other scenarios you did not address Michel. There is another that did happen to me on yellow hill , the truck was leaning so hard to one side that the coolant ran away from the pick up in the rad. Truck went red line hot. I shut it off and winched the truck till it was flat enough to pick the coolant up again. Yeah it was low and shouldnt have been but those are just little things that the mile marker wont do.
AS far as the engine running gos , one little splash of water in the right spot and thats it. If it hasnt happend to you yet I wouldnt worry , IT WILL!
Now as far as the strength and reliabilty is concerned , I would go head to head with you winching and winch till that Mile marker of yours , the mount and the whole damn works ripped from your truck , help you repair and then do it again..
Yes in the water submerged with the engine off the winch might not pull to its capacity. I can just rig a block to ease its pain a little and be on my way..
I know the benefits of hydraulic but I am smart enough to know that it takes away "Possibilities" that may need to be explored one day. YOu cant get creative with the mile marker or any hydraulic winches. THey are much better in predictable enviroments like the ones used in their tests.
As far as electronics go , dont hand me that shit man , you are just as reliant on them as we are. You have a remote that plugs in? COrrect? It operates solonoids? I am sure you dont have a hydraulic valve body plumbed in there to use it..

Kyle

By Mike R. on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 07:43 am: Edit

Guys-

I hate to add more to an already beaten-to-death argument, but check out http://www.sabreforce.com/prod82.htm
They are making an electric back-up pump for the Milemarker. The other nice thing is that even if the engine is dead, the power steering will work assuming you aren't using the PTO setup.
Provided this works as advertised, would you concede that this would be the ideal setup, Kyle?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 07:58 am: Edit

Hate to add more? No way man , thats what this forum is for...
I like that thing allot and it certainly does make the mile marker more apealing to me.
Cost is getting a little silly though after you get all the stuff to make the thing work right..
Cost aside , I like it.. I am still more fond of the worm gear train...Hydraulic worm with that electric back up would be ideal..

Kyle

By Milan on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 08:05 am: Edit

Michael,
Did you read my comments above? I'm with Kyle on this electric vs. hydraulic argument exactly for the reasons he and I described. Those are not made up theoretical ramblings but actual experiences.

Mike R.,
I guess an elecrical backup for the hydraulic pump would be great. I'd have to see how well it works first but the idea is sound.

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 08:13 am: Edit

O contraire mon amie,

The hydraulic is much better in uncontrolled environments. That is were it will outlast the other jewelry, in and out of the shit all day, it performs, day in, day out. -45C no problem, swamp water same thing. Always there when you need it.

I do concede the point that when you turn off the engine, the winch is not working...but they are back ups around that. Manual pump, other recovery gear around, etc. So the one time this trick came in handy for you, is not worth the many times you had to rebuild, maintain, and hope the stupid thing would work in other situations.


Funny you should mention the electronics...with 2 amps, I can wire a flashlit battery to get powers, heheh try that with the ramsey...
Michel

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 08:24 am: Edit

Milan,

Where in Canada are you?

I never thought for a second Kyles ramblings were theoretical. I simply don't aggree with him on this debate. In the end what really matters is knowing what you got, and not having any illusions that it will do things that it wont. Hearing somebody say there winch pulled them out of deep water with a dead engine is not the same as doing it yourself. I've seen to many people get stranded BECAUSE they had a winch, but the thing didn't do what it's supposed to. I believe what I see.

Michel

By Milan on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 09:07 am: Edit

Michel,
I'm in Calgary. Where are you at?

I agree about knowing your equipment and the environment you wheel in. Things also boil down to how you wheel.

I find that when I saw an electric winch not working it boiled down to the setup or maintenance. Either the electrical system was too weak or shot (that maintenance again) or the winch was never maintained and the connections were either loose or corroded or the winch was full of rust and other crap. The one electric we killed a motor on was mine and it was due to operator error. If you have the right winch the extraction is performed correctly even an electric should not blow up on you. If it does you probably have a small winch to begin with or you should have doubled up the line. This goes back to a discussion we once had about the winch sizes.

As far as working submerged electrics or stalling while in the middle of a river crossing - I also believe what I see. I even have an electric backup for my A/C OBA, so I can air up the tires if my engine dies and I can't get it going again.

I think a backup for the hydraulic is a good idea and while I use electric winches, I like the hydraulics and am thinking of setting one up. However, at this point the setup is too expensive. I also doubt a manually operated pump will be good enough as a backup.

By Alex on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 12:12 pm: Edit

I once hydrolocked my engine - an electric winch would have made the difference between standing in waist deep water and fixing it or doing it on dry ground -- or, the choice I made, get it out with the high-lift.. what a pain.

As far as the electric pump for the MM, seems like this setup getting expensive AND very complicated--lots of thick electrical wires and thick hydraulic lines running all around the truck. And, don't forget another (or larger) reservoir for the fluid, too..

Kyle, I'm surprised you'd endorse something like this knowing what a simpleton....errr.. no...minimalist you are.

Alex

By Alex on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Oh, and as far as a backup, I'm sure all of you who have winches also carry a high-lift and some chain as a backup for the winch, right?

Alex

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 12:24 pm: Edit

Well , they asked me if I thought it would measure up. Yeah , I think that would. I still dont like the complications and I dont like the planetary setup as a whole.I am out taking apart an old ass RE right now laughing at how big all the parts are inside compared to the little planetaries.. Nice Bronze gears and bushings as well..


Kyle

By Milan on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Could not agree more. I like beefy, industrial strength things also but not at the price of complicated systems. If you think Kyle is Mr. Simpleton, you should meet me. Diesel on an ox cart would be my thing. And it should not have any idler pulleys.

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

The key word here Milan is industrial strenght. The phrase industrial strengh is typicaly meant for a piece of equipment that will be used all day, day in, day out. That's why it costs more, last longer, and does what it's supposed to. The rest is recreational, meaning light duty, once in a while, if it don't work, no big deal, it's recreational. :-) (I'll figure out that happy face eventually)

BTW, I'm in toronto, but will be moving to BC in several months, maybe will hookup and you can show me some trails in your neibourghood.
Michel

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 03:42 pm: Edit

The "Industry" uses worms for everything.. Not those girly ass planetaries...


Kyle

By michel on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 03:49 pm: Edit

This isn't a fishing rig...and if it was, it would use a hydraulic winch, not electrical :-)

Michel

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I wanna tear that Mile marker down and check its guts. Anyone willing ??

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

How come you aint on Yahoo Michel?


Kyle

By al hang on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Just to add fuel to the fire... I think Scott mentioned Camel Trophy. That crap sucks! It's a bunch of yuppies driving full blast thru mud. No finesse, off-road driving prowess, or anything close to resembling the real thing. Half the teams can't perform the simplest of tasks, trucks are loaded so heavy with equipment and people they look like school buses, and everyone's got 30 inch tires dragging their frames everywhere. Don't believe the hype, I've seen better driving from the guys I know on the discoweb.

And yes that was a compliment to all you crazy MF's out there that take your trucks in the middle of nowhere and make it home for dinner.

-al

By Milan on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Michel,
You're more than welcome to hook up with me and my buddies. When you're blowing through here, let me know via email and we'll show you some neat trails.

Al,
You slay me! My thoughts exactly. Well maybe not as harsh but you got the jist of it. While I think there's some finesse involved, I'd love to drive somebody else's truck and not give a damn about braking anything. Especially with support vehicles. Also, many a vehicle could take punishment like that for only 2 weeks. On the other hand those Discos are pretty stock. I'd like to see other car manufacturer put their vehicles through something like that. I bet many would not hold up very well.

By LR Max on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Hmmmmm... Now kiddies, what have we learned from these messages from our friends?

Kiddes: Always use a Hi-lift and about 3 chains, and a extra long chord and a tree saver. That way we can save $1,000 and our dignity

Very good!!! See what happens when you go to Nathan with a big wallet?????

Well, as far a me and winches go, I don't think I will ever be in a situation were there isn't some other guy in front of me with HIS winch and a rear recovery point. If I am ever in a situation were I am alone (happens about once a month) in a possible (only got stuck there once driving a 2WD chevy, right after it rained, was able to get it out with 2 people pushing) then there are trees close. Thus, I can pull out the gear and go at it. Besides, where am I gonna go anyways??

By Ron on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 03:36 am: Edit

Diesel on an ox cart would be my thing. And it should not have any idler pulleys.

Milan you need a series diesel. Run completely w/o electrics (two lantern batterys will get the glow plugs going and after that you can unplug everything). It will run on vegitable oil. Will run in about 4ft of water. All you need to get one going is a hand crank and a really strong arm. Series petrols are not too far off. I can't think of one engine that did not run after sitting (some for upwards of 30 years) when gas was poured down the carb and one will run off a couple lantern batteries for a good while. The more you look at one the more you realize that everything about it was designed to function under the most adverse conditions and is repairable quickly easily and cheaply. Oh and it does ride like an ox cart. hehehe.

In the same simpliton spirit, old winches used to have hand cranks in addition to primary power (hydraulic or PTO) this to me would be ideal as you could turn it even under water.

cheers
Ron

By JEEPETR on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 04:36 am: Edit

Okay,

I know I'm a Defender guy in a Disco World (Though I have one of them too), so that probably puts me at 2 and a half strikes already, but...

I'm sorry if I make people mad, but I just Don't buy it. I Don't buy that you Kyle, or anyone else here has pushed their trucks or their equipment (Winches for one) to the extremes that the Camel Trophy Teams have over the years. Sorry Guys...

And Al, as for your comments about, "I think Scott mentioned Camel Trophy. That crap sucks! It's a bunch of yuppies driving full blast thru mud. No finesse, off-road driving prowess, or anything close to resembling the real thing. Half the teams can't perform the simplest of tasks, trucks are loaded so heavy with equipment and people they look like school buses, and everyone's got 30 inch tires dragging their frames everywhere. Don't believe the hype, I've seen better driving from the guys I know on the discoweb."

Why don't you call up Bill Burke and feed him that Line, especially since you believe so many others here are by far his superior (Are you More skilled, talented and able to perform the simplest of tasks too?)....

I should have know better than to post in this thread in the first place, it long ago departed from helpful to anyone....

~Scott T.
'95 D-90 (JEEPETR)
'96 Discovery (New addition to the Addiction!)

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 04:50 am: Edit

Scott , aparently you arent following. The trophy lasted how long? Yes , in the years I have had the Disco its done a hell of allot more work then those trucks did in that little time. Why is this concept difficult for you to grasp? It has nothing to do with what you own.
Maybe you dont get out in the woods much but allot of us do. That adds to much more of evreything miles , stucks , wear and tear.the whole 9. You are saying that some brand new Camel trucks with brand new gear saw more action in a few weeks then any of the trucks have seen here in years of use? LOL ,JUST SAY NO! Yes , contact Burke and ask him the same question , he will give you the same answers...You seem to praise him and his ability...

By Ron on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 04:52 am: Edit

I sense bitterness Scott, and bitterness is the enemy of joy. I have to agree with Al on CT though. Ya maybe Bill Burke knows his stuff and so do some of the other CT vets I have met but some of the people I have seen on the videos definately get the special team award (as in specail ed). This opinion of mine has been confirmed by people who were actually there first as competitiors and later as support crew (mechanic). And why not put lockers in them? I mean come on no one would know and it would make life a lot easier. Some of the stuff that they were stuck in was a joke. Put some lockers and lift on there and there would be a lot less winching, I mean the poodles can only take so much.

Ron

PS a poodle is a strong dog.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 05:03 am: Edit

Hmmmm , a water dog too......hadnt thought of that...

Kyle

By chrisvonc on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 05:22 am: Edit

Your reasoning is way off base Scott and I think Bill Burke of all people would disagree with you. I am pretty sure that Bill doesn't pound his personal trucks they same way they did in the CT events. Camel Trophy is not an event to promote the longevity of the Land Rover vehicles. It show cased the ability of the truck in hash conditions. Yes the trucks are beaten pretty good but that's only for a few weeks. After the event the trucks are sold off to the public and rarely spend the remainder of it's life performing hardcore CT event type driving.
The CT drivers DON'T OWN those trucks and also have no financial obligation to their repair nor do they really have any concern what will become of the vehicle after the CT event. That is HUGE difference in how that truck is going to be treated. A truck handed to you by a manufacture for the sole purpose of finishing a grueling event, hopefully in 1st place and with the best times/points, is never going to be treaded as good as anyone on the list treats their personal trucks. It's a lot easier to do your best in a race when you don't have to worry about replacing panels, or getting the water smell out of the truck after you just hand towed it under 10' of water with the front windshield busted out.

By Milan on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:02 am: Edit

Ron,
Thanks for the tip. You may sleep easier knowing that that's exactly what I was considering (50's, 60's technology) after I got stranded at the carwash. Apparently it was the crankshaft position sensor to ECU connector and I dried all the other connectors but this one.

BTW, biodegradeable is the way to go. I belive in Europe they use corn oil.

By JEEPETR on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:10 am: Edit

Chris,

Are you sure you intended to respond to me? You make excellent examples, all of which support my position. I never joined the “which winch is best debate”. I joined the debate over DiscoWeb members using and abusing their trucks and equipment more than the camel trophy guys did. And I still don't buy it.

Kyle, you may have used your winch over a longer period of time, but I still find it hard to impossible to believe you have abused it to the same extent. Contrary to your belief I have indeed been following your threads. As for Bill Burke, I made mention of him because he would fall into Al's classification of Camel Trophy guys being (and I quote) "It's a bunch of yuppies driving full blast thru mud. No finesse, off-road driving prowess, or anything close to resembling the real thing." Ron, it is this attitude that frustrates me (I'm not bitter), and I doubt Bill Would agree that so many Disco Webbers are so much more accomplished in the world of off road than he (I certainly would not).

And on a final note, to add something that may actually be helpful to someone on the topic of winches. Kyle, you ask people to look to the professional towing industry for what winch they use. Ramsey overwhelmingly. Though they are overwhelmingly hydraulic winches, not electric, and a vast majority are planetary (I use to be in the industry). AW Direct is one of the largest suppliers to commercial tow operators out there. Head over to their page (www.awdirect.com), and read their descriptions for the Ramsey RE-12 and the SuperWinch Husky 10. You will find they remark that the Husky is stout enough for everyday commercial towing and recovery use. The RE on the other hand, they remark is Not intended for commercial towing or recovery work.

“The RE is the leader Ron must I force you to admit it?” Whether it is or not, you seem determined to make sure everyone does. At Least one Major Professional Towing supply company seems to disagree….

~Scott T.
’95 D-90 (JEEPETR)
’96 Discovery (New addition to the AddictioN!)

P.S. – You guys can respond however you want, I really don’t care anymore, this will be my last post on the topic, so enjoy yourselves…

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:24 am: Edit

So you want me to refer to one web page for info? And then you say you dont want to respond anymore cause maybe you will be forced to back your opinion up? Look out there Scott , Hydraulic worm ramseys are what you get , shit loads of them. Anyone reading the board can simply take a peek at the roll back sitting next to them in traffic to see this. Husky on a roll back?? Never seen one.. never.. and I have been around plenty. so you still think that a few days of wheeling amounts to more use and abuse of a winch then years of it? Silly boy... you need to get out more...

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:45 am: Edit

Bill Burke knows his stuff but the average competitor does not. Ask someone who went. Ask one of the support mechanics. I'll take a compitent US LR owner with a few years of offroad experience over the average CT competitor. I also have to agree with kyle about the abuse the trucks take. Most of CT is driving on a dirt road or track (some events excluded). Now could I hack the CT, hell no. But do I know how to fix my truck, do I know how it keep it largely in one piece, yes. Given the choice which winch would I rather be on the end of. Damn skippy I want to be on the end of my PTO winch. It is driven by 1in solid steel shafts. The chain in the housing looks like it came off a Harley and the PTO gear diameter is like 3-4inches. You just can't touch that with an electric or hydraulic. Cables melt, hydraulic lines burst, gears sheer but when you have the capability of 35 hp off your PTO and everything in line up to the winch cable is built to take it is not going to fail to get you out. Do I feel like my 9000 warn is going to explode everytime I use it, yes. Do I feel like the Poodle is not, yes. Do I think the RE is so slow as to be intolerable, yes. Do I think its any better than the husky, I dunno.

Ron

I am exiting as well

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:53 am: Edit

Perhaps Scott should start a topic of interest... Yeah , thats it.. Go ahead Scott...post something worthy and insightfull..

Kyle

By wbsa on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:08 am: Edit

I think Scott is busy eating jeeps.

By LR Max on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:15 am: Edit

Hmmmm... An idea has occured. What about Discoweb Winches??? We could have Electric, and PTO, specially designed to preform wonderful on a Disco, but cause a Jeep to explode on contact. Also, we could have like 3 different speeds, so If we have to go fast (like when double backing while using a snach block) or really slow for those slow processes. What do ya'll think? Axel, willing to take the job?

Oh yea, sitting here bad mouthing Warn will not help us a whole lot!

P.S. Kyle, do like the Series owners do, when you run low on colant, put more in!

By LR Max on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:17 am: Edit

Put more water in (oops, everyone makes mistakes!)

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:48 am: Edit

Ron said:

"Now could I hack the CT, hell no."

I think you could, Ron. Think about it, an all expenses paid trip to some exotic location where you are given a Land Rover you can beat the crap out of for two weeks. You have a support crew to help you fix the stuff you break, and you walk away from the truck afterwards. Sounds kinda fun...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 08:02 am: Edit

Anyone check out Scott's site there? LOL That says quite allot...


Kyle

By al hang on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 08:03 am: Edit

This is a great debate, hope the server has enough hard drive for all this...

To scott: There are some great drivers that frequent this site, most of which would easily beat out any camel trophy driver. I have never seen Mr. Burke drive so I will not comment on him specifically but I have watched several camel trophy tapes where guys are just acting like maniacs. The point is when you have nothing to lose and a support team ready it's really not going to be a contest where the most creative individuals will take the time to pick the best lines and conquer an obstacle. Those contests are all about speed. I can actually vouch for some of the drivers I know. Kyle's been all over the east coast and out west, builds stuff on his truck and has installed the majority of equipment for his friends. 2 years ago, a lot of us didn't have winches but Kyle did and he has used it to winch out our entire group before (5 or 6 trucks at an outing). Those camel trophy guys winch themselves out, but do they help the 4 or 5 guys driving behind them, and have they done that for a couple of years? Of course not. John Bradley-Smith also frequents this board, this guy was so into his truck he started Rovertym. And I can say he is one of the best drivers I have ever seen. Ho Chung is another, first and only disco I know of to have a coil over suspension. He's owned 2 discos 4 different suspension systems and is co-owner of expedition exchange. I have great respect for the everyday guy that makes it out to an event, wheels all day, and is still able to drive home in one piece. To me that's what 4 wheelin is about.

-Al

By chrisvonc on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 10:02 am: Edit

"Kyle, you may have used your winch over a longer period of time, but I still find it hard to impossible to believe you have abused it to the same extent."

Just what extent do you think the CT teams are using them for? Its not like they are winching the aztec ruins to new locations. They are just pulling their own truck out of mud. There is no differance in being stuck in 4ft of mud in South America or being stuck in 4ft of mud in Jersey except that the Jersey mud smells worse and eats thought your carpet faster.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 06:59 pm: Edit

ummmmm...has anyone but nadim actually seen the Warn HS9500i, or should I start another thread?

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:31 pm: Edit

tom, it's a decent winch.
real fast though.
you have to learn how to control the remote.
it's real touchy.

do you have any particular reason you are interested in the 9500?

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Well, only that I ordered one! In reality, I want a strong, compact winch. The 9500i seems to fit the bill and I was considering either the Warn or Ramsey. In my limited exposure to Warn and Ramsey (I have none to Husky), I have just been more impressed with the Warn. I have seen an old 8274 caked with mud working all day long pulling full size rigs with no issues. Also have seen a Ramsey pull a lot of stuff and was the guy doing all the unspooling and hooking up, while it handled the jobs, working with it just seemed more difficult. These are just my unscientific observations.

I am not worried about being able to control it. Reflexes are fine thanks to many years of video games and trail-biking.

Tom

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:57 pm: Edit

all i can say is that the quality of finish and built of warn is superior when compared to other planetary winches.

since you ordered one already, none of the above discussion mattered to begin with, did it???????????????

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Nope, but I could have cancelled or even sent it back if I saw anything really compelling. Had a chance at a good deal and took it w/out my usual bevy of research.

Tom

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 02:57 am: Edit

Its a little smoker . You will see that soon...

Kyle

By Ron on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 03:07 am: Edit

Just be prepared when it reels in the first time. Doubt you will smoke it unless you abuse it, keep an eye on the motor temp. If you can touch it let it cool. XD9000i I have works fine but gets hot pretty quick.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 04:07 am: Edit

In all seriousness I think the little warns are fine out west in the rocks. Out there you ussually just need a bit of help to get out of he jam you are in. IN most cases the winch is really just putting some pressure back down on the tires so that the truck can work itself up/over what ever. If rocks are what you are mostly in I think you will be happy with that little HS. If you have run ins with deep mud though thats where it gets issues. They just cant take the heat. Yes the RE is painfully slow. On some of those times that Al is mentioning where I had to winch myself then turn around and winch the others I was about to pull my hair out . But it always gets the job done no matter the enviroment. Even though I see things about the Husky that I dont like , I feel it will perform the same. The difference will be in longevity. I just dont see it built to last as long as an RE will.


Kyle

By John on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 05:07 am: Edit

Hehehe, a winch thread is surly to open the door for Kyle and Ramsey RE...its a losing war of words...Personally I think the RE is overall slow but superior to the others. I think Warn sells more new winches because its fast, compact and looks like a nice package. Thats why I bought mine. When I replace I will get an RE and a winch side chair when using it. RE's are big,ugly,heavy and slow...but a 1 time investment. Ohhh, and thanks AL...hehehe

By Milan on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 05:19 am: Edit

Hey Kyle, did you get my email?

The overheating danger may have something to do with where you wheel. Being out west with no rocks, I have never seen an overheated winch (except that one we smoked on my truck due to operator error). We do avoid mud but the mud around here is unavoidable so we end up winching in mud a lot. When the winch is submerged in water it probably does not get all that hot either as the creeks and rivers are very cold. We seem to strain the winches the most when pulling trucks out of mud and out of/over the ruts and up steep hills. That's where we sometimes run into stalling the winch but never due to heat. It's always the battery that can't take it. So we stop, double up the line, this lets the battery recover by the time we're finished rehooking everything and then it works again. Slower but a bit easier. We run XD8000/9000/i's almost exclusively but keep in mind this is on lighter vehicles. On the Disco I think I'd be doubling up the line more often, so that HS9500 might actually be a pretty good choice.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 05:50 am: Edit

kyle, even out west, depending on how heavily you pack the disco, you could really beat the winch up.

you know damn right how that goes.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 06:01 am: Edit

Yeah , I know Ho. My opinion on what winch to get is set in stone I think. But , everyone dont like to travel as heavy as we do and they can probably get by with the little smokers....


Kyle

By Discosaurus on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 06:02 am: Edit

Tom...

Ask Alex S. about his buddy with the Xterra we
dragged around Attica a while back. He has a
HS and has used it a bit...you might get some info
there.

When I saw it work, it was scary fast on spool-in.
Watch your fingers.

My little 'ol crappy X9 Stupor-winch is just fine
for the occasional times I've used it. I've got
the solonoid pak remoted inside the engine bay
with 2/0 AWG cable runs so it doesn't get near as
hot as stock.

With ALL these toy winches the major issue is
voltage drop with the shitty small power leads
that come from the factory. Put some REAL wire
on 'em and they work a lot better. They get real
overworked when you're trying to run 'em on 10V !

keith
discosaurus

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 06:20 am: Edit

Amp draw is more of a concern with the fast winches as well. Not free spooling but when you lug it down to pulling speed.

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 07:19 am: Edit

Milan , I mailed you at the address in your profile , did you get it?


Kyle

By Milan on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 09:52 am: Edit

Kyle, I did. I hope you got my question. Thanks.

I think Keith has a godd point about the wires too. I always use bigger guage than stock and thus never suffer that much voltage drop or heat. But I do like the low draw of worm gears. That's why I want to try one.

By jcw on Sunday, July 08, 2001 - 10:19 am: Edit

Sorry to say I don't have a winch, and as yet don't do enough off-roading to really need one. Have to work on that. But, what about this idea? There seem to be advantages of hydraulic vs electric winches, except that they need the main engine to run. What about carrying a small gasoline engine with a hydraulic pump, similar to what's used for wood-splitters? Then you'd have hydro power even if you had to run it from your roof rack. Go ahead, shoot it down. I'm sure there are problems with that idea...too heavy, etc?

John

By Mike R. on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 03:20 am: Edit

I finally got a chance to use my Milemarker in a real situation. I made a trip to southern Indiana this weekend. I made a couple of pulls. I made a short pull over an obstacle and a couple of long pulls in deep mud.
Overall, I'm happy with the winch. It is not a fast winch when powered by the PS pump, but the winch just keeps pulling, never moaning and groaning like others. I had to pull my brother out because his Warn XD9000i burned up and he couldn't get a replacement part quick enough (he ordered it three weeks ago) to get it ready for the trip. I'll concede that Warns pull quickly, but if it isn't on the truck, what good is it?
I just feel more confident going out with a hydraulic winch than an electric. I know that many of you have had great success with electrics, but I think that having a reliable winch is the most important concern. I know the winch will always work. I still don't buy the argument about the winch not working when the car is not running. First, can anyone tell me how far they were able to pull their Disco with an electric without the engine running? Second, shouldn't you have a backup if you're going to attempt to go into deep water or mud hole where you have the possibility of stalling.

I think that everyone should realize that there is probably no perfect winch, but a couple of good winches and some not-so-good winches. I think that if you're going to be making some short pulls, and electric planetary might work adequately. But for long pulls in mud, I'd stick with worm drive electric or the Milemarker, but I'm partial to the Milemarker.

By michel on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 06:30 am: Edit

Also remember Mike,

With your setup, you can upgrade....

I had to use my winch a lot this weekend, some really messed up trail we were pointed to by some local guy's. They all run 44" swampers and really chewed up this insanely tight and muddy trail. Anyway, the thing is now with my setup, speed is not a concern anymore. Just dial the speed you want, so recovery is controled and fast. Hell, I can even spool the cable in low gear and it's ok.

Michel

By Mike R. on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 07:07 am: Edit

The PTO setup will be in my future, budget permitting. First things first - tires, lockers & axles & gears, etc.