Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Anyone else gettin 400hp?	1		07/14 11:12pm

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 02:21 am: Edit

I read the archives, but there is little there. I want to know if anyone recommends a snorkel on the Disco II gas engine? I guess it helps with stopping hydrolocking, but what else can happen in deep water?

Thanks in advance

Dean

By gil on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 02:43 am: Edit

id be more concerned with all those wires under there....a snorkel will not do much more than make your rig look cool....

By SIMON on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 02:52 am: Edit

not true

it works much better than your little pansy airbox, if done right it will work fine... and it looks cool too.. ;-)

Simon.

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:38 am: Edit

Ok, so what happens when I get all those wires wet? When they dry out after I tow it onto dry land, and let it dry for a few hours, will it start?

Also, has anyone out there actually been hydrolocked in a gas Disco? Please tell us!

Dean

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:50 am: Edit

I would not be too concerned about those wires. You are more likely to get stuck in deep water if a few drops of water gets past your air filter and hits your Mass Airflow Sensor. In that case, the computer will in most cases shut the engine down and you are stuck, with water slowly starting to seep troght your doors, damaging your carpets, CD player, whatever.
Another thing to consider is your breather lines, sucking water into your automatic transmission can cause some serious damage.
Other long term effects is of course corrosion, on electrical connections, frame etc.
Personally, I hate deep water and won't go through it unless I absolutely have to. The potential for damage is just too great in my opinion.
Now, with an old diesel series truck it's another matter.....

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:43 am: Edit

Haven't hydrolocked a Disco (yet - thankfully) but did do it to a 96 Exploder - 2 bent rods, etc, etc - short block was toast. At least it gave me an excuse to get rid of the POS and buy the Disco!

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:46 am: Edit

So, did you try to start the engine, or was it already too late? And tell us what happened in the next 24 hours - I take it you couldn't drive any more?

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:47 am: Edit

I saw and recovered two hydrolocked RRs, ok I recovered one and lent my strap to a j**p to yank out the other. Both had serious water ingress into the engine (the amount of water that came out of #6 on the NBS had me convinced it bent a rod/valve) but both were fine after removing the plugs and blowing out the water with the starter. They idled like crap for awhile but were ok after all the water dried out. It was a weird pit and what happened was they went nose in a popped back nose up or else they would have been really SOL if they had stayed nose down. With a snorkel they would have made it, but if you stall in the middle and water comes in your ecu is toast. Water is a bad thing.

Ron

By Jeff on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:52 am: Edit

Speaking of water and electronics, have many of you moved your coil? from behind the headlight, just waiting for a bath.

The way I see it, you can greately increase your chances of not stalling if you relocate the coil to the firewall and silicone the distributor shut.

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 03:55 am: Edit

Listen to Axel.

Petrol series are fine in water too.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:10 am: Edit

Thats not true Ron , any time a truck goes into the water with the throttle blade wide open (Exageration)you are playing with dissaster. Engines get hydrolocked because owners mat the pedal. If you keep the throttle openings to a minimum the engine will stall long before enough water gets in the cylinders to lock it. The more RPM the engine has achieved the more dissaterous the results. This is true on any truck that the intake is positioned low enough to be a problem. You can lock a series just as well as a Disco , RR , Defender , whatever.. Crossing water safely over and over is an art , there is no doubt. The "bonzai!" tactic will catch up to you in a big way sooner or later..

Kyle

By MTB on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:17 am: Edit

Some people will have the urge to do it no matter how many people tell them NO. I say do it the grasshoppers will learn. It will be good for LR parts dept. Or sadly we will see a dead Disco coming out of Kyles window.

Michael B

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:17 am: Edit

Yes, petrol series are fine in water, too. I have seen them do some amazing stuff: (Not too deep in this picture, but there were a couple of inches of water inside )
Of course a series can be hydrolocked like any other vehicle just like Kyle says. I think Ron's and my point is that the series is less likely to stall because of their nonexistent electronics, and if they do, there is less expensive items to damage.

By Jeff on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:21 am: Edit

Beautiful Series!

Man I miss mine!

By gil on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:25 am: Edit

..but will having a snorkel really lessen the risk of water damage? Ive been under the impression that on a gas engine with an ECU it really would not. Also, wouldnt the air temp at the roof be cooler than behind the grill, therefore making a touch more power. educate me...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:27 am: Edit

Yes it will. I am sure Ron is about to post and tell me that you cant make some water crossings if you go slow. Thats where the snorkel helps. It allows you to then get a little more throttle and speed going to overcome mud... The snorkel is a good idea if you want to play in the water...

Kyle

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:34 am: Edit

A properly installed snorkel would make it harder for water to reach the Mass Airflow sensor, which would make it less likely that the computer shuts the engine down because of erratic signals from the MAF.
If all you add is a snorkel, you have not increased the depth your Rover is capapble of going through. The ECU, breather lines etc are still at the same height. Water is for ducks, stay out of it...

By fritz on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:38 am: Edit

Now I tend to keep the disco free of water since im not too keen on the idea of messing up the carpet and stereo system, but I'm building a frame off defender 110 at the moment with a 200 TDi (supposevly takes the v8 mounts) anyhow i was under the impression that with this and a snorkel I can pretty much wander wherever i please water or not. Does this caution hold true to such a vehicle as well? because i see the the camel TDi discos go through water with no sweat (but theyve mastered the bow of water in front of the truck thing as well)

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:41 am: Edit

Nope , not true at all. You have increased the depth of water that you can successfully cross. If something stops you you are hosed , yes. I suggest tha if real deep water is your thing that you do some water profing along with the snorkel. Ax , you have been there when we all crossed water up to thw windshield. Wouldnt you have felt a bit better if you had a snorkel? And you and george would not have stalled that time either if you had a snorkel.

Kyle

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:46 am: Edit

Axel - How do you post a picture in the message?

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 04:55 am: Edit

Of course I would have felt better with a snorkel. And as I said, a properly installed snorkel would make it less likely that water would reach the MAF, stalling the truck.
So, allthough a snorkel will give you slightly better odds of making it, you have only improved one area. It still does not guarantee that you will make it across, so I will not agree with your statement that the water depth you can safely cross has increased. If something stops you, you are just as hosed as you would be without the snorkel, all else being the same.

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:03 am: Edit

Kyle,

The design of a series air cleaner allows you to go really deep (its far back near the bulkhead with the intake on top and its an oil bath filter), that combinded with the fact that all the electrics that are water susceptable (coil) are high on the bulkhead and the cap seals very well (especially with hylomar) lets you wade deep. I shall have to get a copy of transcanada 92 for you. Not only do series run in deep water put a 109 took a dive in Lake Erie up to the middle of the windscreen. Yes it stalled but they yanked it out and it ran fine afterwards. Slow is the way to go (why did you think I would think otherwise?) as long as you keep a bow wave, however if you stop your screwed (at least in a disco) as the water comes in and gets the ECU CD player etc etc. the other saving grace of series is that without anything that can be damaged by water below the dash you can stall and have little to no damage. Full throttle is bad for the reasons mentioned but after having seen the RR take on water (I mean a lot) I think the LR V8 might be better adept at drinking than some others (look at the way the plenum is designed). In any case ECU gets wet you are SOL so don't play in the water.

Cheers
Ron

(supposevly takes the v8 mounts) Nope. I know that for sure.

2.5 n/a, 200TDi, 2.5 P all have the same, 2.25 P and D and 2L diesel are another, V8 is different, and 300TDi is another design as well. Don't know about Mpi hehehe

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:05 am: Edit

Oh and where discos tend to float a bit and lose traction series take on water and the wheels get more traction back.

Ron

Stay out of the water

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit

Dean - it's described in detail under "Formatting" in the tool bar on the left.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:09 am: Edit

Yes , but thats an "if" that we strugle with on any obstacle. There are two resons for having it.
1: To feel safer at the depths you are crossing stock.
2: To attempt deeper crossings.

I think that in both cases its far better to have the snorkel then not have it . And other items should be addressed as well. I have seen far more trucks srewed up cause they sucked water and stalled then I have trucks that got stuck and then the water creeped in..
If you have checked the crossing like you should have before hand you know what you are getting into and you can adjust accordingly. If its rock and there are large ones that can hang you up ,avoid them. If its mud you should find out how deep it is. Obviously if there are 2' ruts or 3' of mud its a bad idea with or without the snorkel. The Snorkel isnt there to solve all your deep water problems , its just another tool. A great one.

Kyle

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:09 am: Edit

The linkage arms between the frame and the axle have holes in them that can take a 3/4 " shackle. Since this arm can be used for jacking, can it not also be used for recovery? You could put one both sides for added strength.

I have a photo of this - but how can I get a photo into a message?

Dean

By DeanBrown3D on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:10 am: Edit

Sorry - wrong conversation!

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:11 am: Edit

Fritz, with a 200TDi and a snorkel that is properly sealed you can go really deep. Make sure to get extended breathers and think about your fan selection if you are building it.

Ron

PS Design makes 200TDi mounts you can just weld on.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:12 am: Edit

tsk tsk tsk , so if I am on a trail with you boys 30 miles out and we get to some deep water you boys will turn the Disco around and tuck tail? Damn...

Kyle

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:19 am: Edit

Ok, in the Pine Barrens there are two Swamp Roads. I am not sure which one everyone talks about, there is one on a few miles west of Atsion, and another several miles east, both in or near Wharton State Park.

My question is: Is the snorkel only useful for rivers, or are roads like this also too wet for a stock disco?

Dean

By Anonymous on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:29 am: Edit

Don't forget dust. A snorkel helps with dust big time. Even if you don't go wading it's worth it to have a snorkel just to breath cleaner air.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:40 am: Edit

Dean thats really hard to say. We have been through some pretty deep stuff in the barrens and the following month there was nothing. I know the roads you are talking about and have talked to some owners that have run them. These were lifted trucks , not stock. Maybe they went through when it was low , maybe its rutted really bad now , as I said , its hard to give any advice on something like that.

Kyle

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 05:47 am: Edit

"There are two resons for having it.
1: To feel safer at the depths you are crossing stock.
2: To attempt deeper crossings."

Kyle, I'm not saying a snorkel is not an improvement, and I will most likely add one, for reason #1.

As for #2, I'll let you go first.....

Axel

By Steve (Steve2) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 06:12 am: Edit

i have a snorkel on my series 1 disco, with two air boxes. the 'city box' is 'swiss cheesed' out with approx 35 30mm holes with a kn filter inside. the snorkel head faces rearwards as it is not active. for desert travel - i swtich to the sealed box connected to the snorkel. and swing the snokel head forward. to switch out the boxes takes about 15mins.

in a recent lrm or lro - according to them, very little is needed to prepare a petrol motor for wading. i still would waterproof as much as possible and run brather tubes from the diffs and trans.

best of luck
steve

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 06:26 am: Edit

Water is bad. remember that it's not bottled fresh water that you're playing in - it's usually muddy whale shit water, with rotting vegetation and stinking, rotting animals. The first guy in the convoy may have relatively "clean" water, but once it's churned up, it's nasty stuff. Plus, if you drive in and get stuck, all that churned up mess will surround you and seep in.

Trust me, I know from experience - tried to skirt a cattle-watering hole late one night and just barely had right side tires in about 6" of water when the rear end completely lost traction on the cow shit/mud and fishtailed into the deep. Luckily the front end stayed relatively high, but I couldn't get out. It was a big bowl-shaped watering hole with slick sides; I could reverse into deeper water and then bolt forward up on the edge, but just didn't have the traction. I stopped trying when one of the front worn stock Michelins started bubbling air from torn tread. I got up as high as I could and parked it with the ebrake on, but the damn thing slid, wheels locked, backwards until the tailights were completely submerged (but headlights were barely wet). Water water everywhere... I had to hike through the desert at midnight until I found a jeep to drive me back and pull me out. I was pulling jumping cholla spines out of my skin the next day. When we got back to the disco, there were little minnows pecking at the illuminated tailights. I had to go diving to hook up my chain. The interior stunk for weeks afterwards, but I dried everything out and there's no permanent corrosion or other damage. The ARB air compressor was completely submerged (installed in rear passenger cargo storage bin), but still works fine (thank you very much, Kyle ), but there's a permanent oil slick in the rear cargo carpet. I was really surprised that, other than the stench, nothing was wrong (no short-circuits, no blown bulbs, etc). Had the diffs and tranny serviced shortly after, but no ingress of fluids there, either.

For the record: I wasn't really out wheelin solo, the wife and I (girlfriend at the time) were only a few miles off-road on graded gravel roads watching a meteor shower, drinking wine, testing the rear springs, etc. I was merely taking a short-cut home (she was very impressed). There would also have been no anchor for a winch, if I had one. A snorkel wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference.

Water is bad. Water made me suffer the indignity of being recovered by a jeep...the horror....the horror...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 06:33 am: Edit

No , lack of a winch made you suffer there my friend...

Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 06:49 am: Edit

unfortunately (or fortunately), my wife is not big enough to serve as an anchor for a winch. No trees in the desert, a few big boulders here and there (but not anywhere near where I was stuck), and the ground cover is precambrian gruss (granitic gravel) with fractured granitic cobbles and pegmatitic quartz all the way down to competent granite bedrock - in other words, too damn hard to drive an anchor in. Real tires would have made all the difference in the world. So would have a little common sense...

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 06:58 am: Edit

axel ,

i couldn't agree more.

-rd

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 07:01 am: Edit

PS Design makes 200TDi mounts you can just weld on.

Should be designa

designa chassis or some such thing. Used to be arrow designa

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

Dean - to answer your question way up there - the Exploder locked up right away - all damage occurred essentially instantly. The water was deep, but I wasn't anywhere near WOT - but water in an engine is water in an engine no matter how it got there. That short block never turned a crank again......Later Ford did admit to having an intake design that would take water in easily - not to mention I was a dumb-ass for going in that deep! (course it was funny to watch my Newfoundland jump out of the back of the truck and swim to higher ground and then proceed to look at me with a WTF expression)

Bill

By Leslie on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 07:50 am: Edit

Ron,

Designa Chassis are made by Arrow... I'm under the impression that Arrow would be the "umbrella" company, with Designa as a sub-set or a name-brand, so-to-speak.

-L

By Ron on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 07:51 am: Edit

L
Arrow was their parts business. Which has since closed. I think

Ron

By Leslie on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 08:04 am: Edit

Gotcha.....

-L

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Friday, July 13, 2001 - 12:10 pm: Edit

nice pic of a series totally underwater, still driving. no snorkel.

No, he did not make it all the way across.

Alex

By Steve Clarke (Stevec) on Saturday, July 14, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Come over to the land of Australia we regularly ford rivers of up to 4 feet I've floated mine in snow melt at least 3 times the water invasion is minimum if you follow the golden rule get out of you truck and walk through the water first.You will save hours of stress and money if you get out and walk it.My truck runs on LPG(LIQUID PETROLIUM GAS)as well as gasoline it runs another computer to regulate the gas mixtureIf its possible to be more fragile than your trucks this is ,but I always set up a blind and I've got a safari snorkel.If you need to see if they work go to www.safari.com.au and download the video of the isuzu trooper (holden jackaroo)

By stevec on Saturday, July 14, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Sorry the site is www.safari4x4.com.au
steve,