By david b. on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 05:42 am: Edit

Ok, If I get RTE 2" springs, I will lose 2" of down travel and gain 2" of up travel, right? If I get those same springs with OME Nitrocharger shocks, then what would happen? Are the shocks longer than stock? Lastly, is the OME suspension more flexy than the stock one?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 07:27 am: Edit

Hmmm , complicated. You actually dont loose or gain anything from the the stand point of the trucks body. The shock is the same and will still do the same things. Its just starting out 2" more extended then it was when the body was riding in its stock location over the wheel. Now , if you are judging wheel travel from where it is after the lift then yes , you just lost two inches of down travel. To offset it you will need a shock that has a stroke that is 4" longer and you will need to raise the upper mount 2". You need to raise that upper mount 2" because the shock is now longer and you are in danger of bottoming it out. Did I just confuse more or clear anything up?


Kyle

By Mike B. on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 07:17 pm: Edit

The OME shocks have about 1/4 to 1/2 inch less travel than the stock Woodheads.

Like the earlier post said, flex is a function many things; including shocks and springs. The OME springs have more turns, so they will bind up sooner than the RoverTym ones. RoverTym springs use the same diameter wire and the same number of turns as stock so they bind at the same point as do the stock springs.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By david b. on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 04:12 pm: Edit

oh, ok I got it. Does anybody run just RTE springs? How's the handling on and off-road?

By John Lee on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:31 pm: Edit

David,

I'm afraid there's no simple answer to your question. Assuming arguendo that the RoverTym springs raise your vehicle exactly 2", how much travel you get will depend on numerous things.

The RT springs are stiffer than stock, so they will compress less and reduce uptravel in both front and rear. If your shocks are too short, then you will lose extension in conjunction with the loss of compression, resulting in loss of RTI.

For extension, whether you run cones or retainers in the rear will add more variables. If you run cones, your rear extension is basically unlimited and dependent on the length of the shocks. This assumes the shocks are long enough to unseat the springs. With retainers, the stretch of your springs will determine how much rear flex you get if your shocks are long enough. With both cones and shocks, if your shocks are too short you will get less extension than your suspension is capable of.

I hate to use such nebulous phrases such as "too short" or "long enough", but the proper length of your shocks will necessarily depend on your springs and their characteristics. Obviously, there is no magic length of shocks that works with all springs. Taller springs will generally require longer shocks.

Yes, OME shocks are longer than stock. I don't have my databook with me right now, but I've measured the factory shocks and the OME shocks, and the OME shocks definitely have more travel than the factory shocks. Compressed lengths are almost identical for both shocks, but the OME shocks have almost an additional inch of extension compared to the factory shocks. If you're really interested, shoot me an email to remind me to look up the lengths of the factory shocks. You can look at the OME lengths on the EE site at: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/shockguide.htm

I don't know if the OME suspensions give more flex than stock. I've never bothered to measure my RTI and the RTI figures I've seen on the web had variables such as removing the swaybars after the OME suspension was installed. If we keep all other factors constant, I'm not sure which system would have more RTI.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Man , throw RTI out the window . Your point about uptravel with stiff springs however is valid. That would limit your travel if you didnt load the vehicle to compensate. Aside from that the wheels still retain the same travel after the lift as the shock length and mount geometry dictate that and those havnt been changed.


Kyle

By Mike B. on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Yes, there are people who are running the RTE 2" springs with no other mods with good success. The stock Woodhead shocks are fine. A good friend and I did his 96 Disco and it really handles just fine. Also, for some unknown reason, we actually increased the cross-axle capabilities (more travel at each corner). Go figure.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 11:54 am: Edit

"Go figure."

We did that ahead of time...lol

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:00 pm: Edit

I dont remember the thread this subject was on, but we replaced the OME medium dutys on a RR'er today, and the rear springs were the same height, but there was 1" difference in the front spring heights. Now the motor/trans is offset to one side for the TC/driveline thing for the reason behind this I think, but it sure puzzels me. Any other explanation?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Its for the Euro models and just causes a pain in the ass for us..

Kyle

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:10 pm: Edit

So are you saying that euro springs get shipped to the states? I know Bill sorts his...does anyone else? These springs were 2 years old, maybe the system has changed..

By Ron on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Springs are the same everywhere, John. Euro spec get sent here. Bill sorts and so do some other if you ask. You can get PS or DS if you request but the DS are in more demand as they are longer.

Ron

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Thanks

By John Lee on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 12:24 pm: Edit

"I know Bill sorts his...does anyone else?"

At EE, we sort them. If you want, we can sell you the DS/PS, but we customarily match them DS/DS and PS/PS.

The difference between DS and PS is very small. Something like 0.3". If a vehicle is fitted with all DS or all PS, I highly doubt that anybody can tell the difference.

John

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Then the older springs(2 years old) arent an indicator of the differences, as they measure 1" difference in the front springs, as todays newer springs? I realize they were used, but my very first set of OME's had that same descripency as well and I never questioned the difference. Also when matching springs to customers wishes, I guess that may explain the difference's that occur in new spring heights,as some customers get the talls, and some get the shorts. Again this is just questions I have and just looking to understand todays springs.

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

My interest in this is strickly because many first time buyers call me about springs, and if their criteria(needs) is not my springs, I recommend OME as thats the only other choice, and I want to offer them good infomation or good questions to ask so they get what they need. And we all know LR'ers in general vary somewhat in the area of what spring gives what lift.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit

"Yes, there are people who are running the RTE 2" springs with no other mods with good success. The stock Woodhead shocks are fine. A good friend and I did his 96 Disco and it really handles just fine. Also, for some unknown reason, we actually increased the cross-axle capabilities (more travel at each corner). Go figure.Thanks,
Mike B."

Mike , this aint rocket science. This is exactly what I am talking about in the other posts in this thread. You wheel is starting lower in its stroke and its held there by spring pressure. If the oposing side stuffs like it should then the truck is unaffected by the lift. It will actually get better cause that dropped tire has more pressure on it..
I aint even gonna get into the "Go figure" part,,,,lol , its a damn spring...

Kyle

By John Lee on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Mike,

"Yes, there are people who are running the RTE 2" springs with no other mods with good success. The stock Woodhead shocks are fine. A good friend and I did his 96 Disco and it really handles just fine. Also, for some unknown reason, we actually increased the cross-axle capabilities (more travel at each corner)."

Did you actually measure the RTI on a ramp/forklift, or did you eyeball it? The reason I ask is because my guess would be that you lose RTI compared to stock with the RoverTym 2" springs in conjunction with Woodhead shocks. Were the swaybars fitted with the stock springs and then removed on the RoverTym springs?

The reason I think this is because the the taller and stiff RoverTym springs would cause you to lose some uptravel, but your downtravel would be the same because your shocks are unchanged. With equal extension and loss of compression, your RTI should go down, not up.

Not trying to attack you or anything. Just trying to figure out what I'm missing.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit

LOL , I guess those "RTI" nubers were thought up "Ahead of time" anyone have the stats on that? JJ? God damn RTI..... lol

Kyle

By John on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 04:40 pm: Edit

"Go figure."

We did that ahead of time...lol = expressing humor

By Mike B. on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:53 pm: Edit

"Did you actually measure the RTI on a ramp/forklift, or did you eyeball it? "

We put it up on some home made ramps before and after the spring install. Nothing scientific, no RTI index. Wheels simply stayed on the ground longer.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 04:08 am: Edit

John , you know I aint no more worried about RTI then the man in the moon...Seems all that has gone to FLTI (Fork lift travel index) anyway...

On a side note , the official word from ARB enginering is that there is a 10 MM difference in springs heights left to right. They are marked DS and PS per Euro trucks, meaning that the DS spring is the right hand side and the PS is the left. Peter is saying that the springs are made that way because of inconsistencies in the LR and with the difference you can move them side to side and get the truck level. That makes sense to me. More so then anything else I have heard about it. Anyhow , that was from the horses mouth..


Kyle

By John on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 04:25 am: Edit

From the perspective of ARB Engineering and what works in the field is it better to match up springs or go with the ARB recommendation and furnish the PS and DS sets? But I guess that gets into the personal opinion thing.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 04:30 am: Edit

What he is saying is that if you have all springs even lengths your truck is going to lean. If you have them all one length per side , your truck is going to lean. But , if they make one each front and rear 10mm taller then you have some tuneability and you can get the truck sitting level. Yes , he did say to move them around to get the truck sitting right.

Kyle

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 04:32 am: Edit

john, not only it's a matter of personal opinion, but matter of butt size.


therefore some will lean more than others.
LOL

By John Lee on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 04:43 am: Edit

Kyle,

The differences between DS and PS are very small, something like 0.3" on average. I usually see slightly less than 10mm difference in the springs we receive in the shop from ARB. The spring heights listed on the EE site are taken from actual measurements of the springs we receive and sell. Here's a link to the actual spring heights: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/ome.htm

This isn't the first time that ARB's nominal measurements differ from reality. OME's Application guide lists spring recommendations with various weights and gives the resulting lift. But these figures are often inconsistent. For example, the Application Guide lists the 751 (front HD) as giving the Defender 110 1.4" of lift, while the same spring is listed as giving the Defender 90 only 1.2" of lift. If anything, the Defender 90 should stand taller than the 110 with the 751's installed. Also, the Guide lists the 762 (rear HD) as giving the Disco 2.0" of lift, while the same spring is listed as giving the D90 only 1.4" of lift. This second measure is completely off as anyone who's seen the rear of a Defender knows that there is almost no weight back there. On the Milk Truck, the 762's raised the rear big time and I had to substitute 764's to level out the vehicle.

As for whether to match or follow ARB's recommendations of DS and PS, EE permits the customer to choose. It is our custom and practice to match the springs, but we will ship unmatched springs if that is what the customer desires.

Frankly, I think matched is the way to go. I see a LOT of Rovers listing to the right with the DS/PS springs fitted. I think the matched springs give a more level vehicle.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 05:03 am: Edit

WEll John , I think most people are putting the springs in the wrong sides to start with. I know I did. I think what the guy was saying is that he is aware that trucks differ and springs differ. The only way you can insure that the springs you have shipped someone will get their truck sitting level is to make some different then others. I know how that sounds but if they are all the same length you will have to tune with spacers. And that aint part of what you bought.

Kyle

By Michel on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 05:39 am: Edit

I find it easier to simply pack more on the side that is higher, water and shit goes on that side, end of story. Next thing you know you will be mesuring the truck with a macrometer and a level :-)

It only leans in the driveway, in the trails it's perfect.

Michel

By John Lee on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

"I think what the guy was saying is that he is aware that trucks differ and springs differ. The only way you can insure that the springs you have shipped someone will get their truck sitting level is to make some different then others. I know how that sounds but if they are all the same length you will have to tune with spacers. And that aint part of what you bought."

I can see the view of shipping springs of different heights in an attempt to level out an otherwise uneven vehicle. But it seems to me that the best way to achieve a level vehicle is to start out with springs of equal height.

Sure, you will likely have to fit some trim packers to achieve a perfectly level vehicle, but I would think that you would have to fit less trim with equal-length springs than with unequal-length springs. I've seen dozens of Rovers listing toward the right because of the shorter PS springs. This is especially bad when there's someone sitting in the passenger seat. I notice it whenever I'm driving behind another Rover on the way to a trail ride.

Whatever. If the customer wants DS/PS springs, that's what I'll give him. I still recommend matched springs though.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 06:04 am: Edit

as if it's a breeze to start yanking springs off and move them around to get it tuned "just right".

I load my 50lb chain and/or rocks on the high side to get the damn thing level.

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 06:12 am: Edit

If you ever do get it level, is that w/ or w/o a driver? Or a passenger? Or gear? Once you get it dead-on level empty, then it'll be thrown off once you get in, or someone else or you throw Blue's chain in the back (and rocks! Columnar- jointed basalt isn't light stuff... speaking of, I don't have any... anyone out west got any handy??)

As long as it's close, then get used to its slight variations, IMHO....

-L

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 06:22 am: Edit

well , you would do that if you need to Blue. John , even the ones with all the same length springs lean. I have all one length and they lean. You gonna sell springs and say that you need some other shit to make them work? The variances in these things is unreal some times and I see the guys point. Its the easiest way to cure the problem in one package.. no extras

Kyle

By John Lee on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 07:04 am: Edit

Kyle,

We don't guarantee a level vehicle with the matched springs. There's no way we could guarantee that. My Defender lists toward the DS, even though it has DS/PS 764's in the rear with the DS spring on the DS. As everyone knows, all Rovers are different. It did the same thing when it had DS/PS 762's in the rear.

I said in my previous post that trim packers would likely be necessary if a customer wanted a perfectly level vehicle, even if he fit the matched springs.

The reason we match the springs is because we think it gives a MORE level vehicle than the DS/PS springs, not becuase it gives a PERFECTLY level vehicle. All we are doing is trying to improve an already bad situation.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 07:05 am: Edit

used to have some nice columnar basalt, but it made the disco lean, so I pitched it. actually, I dump tons of rocks every time I move, and those samples were jettisoned to make room for the great Ohio to Arizona migration.

what's a little side to side lean matter? I understand benefit of spacers to lift that front end back up a bit, but side to side is relative to empty, driver, driver+passenger, driver+passenger+fat chick back right, etc.

high margin of variance in OME is a bit unsettling, so to speak...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 07:35 am: Edit

John , I understand what you are doing and I have been all for it. But , I am noticing more and more that trucks are leaning with any springs. Therefore what the guy had to say made perfect sense to me. It aint the only way to cure the problem but it is the only way to cure it with just springs. They sell springs ,and what kind of mess would they be in if every set of springs they sold did not have the abiity to make your truck sit level all by themselves without any additional purchases. I think by moving the springs around a little you can get that done with the OME. You cant however do that on all trucks with just installing equal length springs. You will have a lean that has to be fixed with some sort of spacer.

Kyle

By John Lee on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:41 am: Edit

Kyle,

That's why OME sells the trim packers. I believe they are 5mm and 10mm widths. Just throw in some trim packers and they'll help to level out your vehicle.

That's pretty smart of ARB. First they sell you unequal-length springs which cause your vehicle to lean, and then they sell you the trim packers to even things out.

By Ron on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 10:03 am: Edit

Would you like to know the history of all this?

Well with the first Series Is (real series I not discos) the fuel tank was under the Right hand seat which also happened to be where the driver sat so this combination necessitaed heavier springs on the right rather than the left (of course LHD trucks still got the heavier duty springs on the RH side so they all listed badly when someone was driving). Yes it is still a hold over, in fact until the TD5 all D90s (not the US ones) had the same set up with the tank under the drivers seat.

ROn

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 10:10 am: Edit

Yes Ron you are correct..


Kyle

By Marc on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit

OK - here is my question - I have OME MD kit - gonna install soon - when it says PS and DS, are they talking American or Euro PS/DS? Which side do I put the short spring on?

By milan on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:13 pm: Edit

It does not matter. DS is where the driver sits. More weight on that side means that's where the longer spring should go. That is until a passenger sits down on his seat.

I think any vehicle should sit level to begin with as you can never predict how many people or what gear it will carry. It is also the driver's responsibility to distribute any load evenly to prevent odd handling. Maybe they assume that most vehicles have a driver only. I think I'd prefer a level vehicle (just like those made by other manufacturers) and live with it leaning to the driver side when it only contains the driver. This way if you take the road "crowning" into consideration it will actually sit level going down the road.

By Milan on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Marc,
Read my reply to your other post if you want to trade springs.