By Emilio 98 Disco on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

I nearly rolled my Disco today trying to climb a STEEP hill. I got three quarters of the way up when I completely lost traction. I decided to ease it back down to the bottom. I let go of the brake slightly to begin the decent. The truck started to pick up speed so I applied more brake but the damn ABS system prevented it from locking up. This caused the truck to keep accelerating down the hill (backwards). On top of that I found that I can't steer (I think that the front wheels might have been locked up due to the weight of the truck being on the back mostly). This caused the truck to begin sliding towards the right side.. in effect turning it so the it is traversing the hill. Now ..thank God the truck stopped moving because I was about to begin a nasty roll to the bottom. So the question remains 1. Do you have to put the auto transmission in either neutral or reverse? or will the wheels turn backwards even if in first gear in 4 low. 2. What do you guys do to prevent a reverse acceleration down a hill?

By nadim on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:01 pm: Edit

First, thank God that you are safe and sound...

Second...YES, you should NEVER decend with the brake pressure...NEVER...you should ALWAYS use the engine compression...that is what is called a controlled decent...

If you are going forward downhill (very vrey steep), you lock the center diff, and put it in 1st, then if for any reason the tires start to skid due to the fact that the Disco is going faster than the wheel can, then you ACCELERATE...but NEVER use your brakes...

If you are recovering from a failed hillclimb, you immediately put it in R, and use the engine compression to go down!...same theory, only pain is for your neck!

I would HIGHLY advise you to join a club and/or offroad driving school in order to get certain things right (a book will not hurt either).

Good luck,

Nadim

By Emilio 98 Disco on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:05 pm: Edit

Thanks...I just bought this truck 2 months ago and today was the first time I ventured off road. I used to drive a Trooper (5 spd). I found that I have less control of the truck with the automatic ...but I think I just have to get used to it.
P.S...I will join a club to hone my off road skills because I never want to experience that again!!!!
Thanks for the tips!!!

By nadim on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Emilio...
Actually, with the automatic, you have many many advantages as far as control is concerned...

1. you have one more free hand and one more free foot.
2. you can use your left foot to gently brake while accelerating (helps you "fool" the diff and make it act a wee bit like an LSD)
3. don't over-run your clutch...

and many many others...but since i have a 5speed, then i do not know all of them..

By Troy on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Emilio-
Just a couple of other points-

Always know which way your wheels are turned. Just because your going in a straight line doesn't mean your wheels are pointed straight.

And, secondly, Nadim mentioned a key technique. When you start to get sideways on a hill like that (going forward or reverse) your tires have ALREADY lost traction. Hitting the break is just going to make things worse - faster. Instead, lightly hit the accelerator (making sure you're not turning the truck perpendicular to the hill!), thus letting the tires regain traction and bringing the truck back in line with the hill. It's counter-intuitive and will get you white-knuckled the first couple of times, but it will work.
Troy
-& definately, the club thing is a good idea

By Emilio 98 Disco on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 05:52 pm: Edit

If my knuckles turn any more white than they did today , its because the bone is showing through!!
Thanks again guys !

By MTB on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Ok for most of that I would say your 100% correct. I don't think I would say that if your going down a steep hill with some nice size rocks on the path. Back in June I was at a R.O.V.E.R.S. event and at one trail that only a few tried it.
It had some nice rocks the 2/3 way down and about 3/4 the way down it had a sharp and very tight turn to the right. Everyone who ran it had their brakes on. So for most hills no you don't want to brake but there are those times you will need to brake.
The last thing you would want to do is apply the brakes on a steep decent at full speed.
Emilio I was in the same situation as you were but the trail I was on was only wide enough for my Disco the mountian was staight up and down on the sides. after getting everyone out of the Disco then I could piss myself without anyone seeing me (It scared the shit out of me) they were able to sweep the wet leaves on the one side and I made it up.
Good Luck on future outings and always get out and scout the trail out before making a run.

Michael B

By Moe on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 07:46 pm: Edit

"then if for any reason the tires start to skid due to the fact that the Disco is going faster than the wheel can, then you ACCELERATE...but NEVER use your brakes..."

I disagree. This can be very bad advice. Use the brakes early and often. Most of our rigs do not have the necessary engine/gear braking for hill descents. Controlled skidding and releasing and then reapplying of the brakes will be far safer than acceleration. If anything when already in downhilll skid, back of brake, reorient the front wheels, and gently reapply the brake--or coast down if possible, but don't accelerate unless there is big field below.

In Emilio's case he had to back down from a failed climb. His problem, I believe, was not keeping on the brake right from the beginning and edging slowly off the hill. He let the rig get away, it built up some speed and he lost control, so the brakes became ineffective.

By MTB on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 08:46 pm: Edit

I think what they are try to do is get the engine braking back in order.
To someone new they can get a false impression on a descent by NEVER brakeing.
As for Nadim he runs a 5speed so his gearing in first is lower than a auto and he did bring up a gently brake in his second post and that is the key word GENTLY.
I don't know how steep Emilio's hill was. I bet he had his foot on the gas(steady) and did not gradually accellerate while going up the hill. Damn that the fun in it no one was hurt, you find out what your limits are for now we have all been there way or another.
His best bet is to get offroading instructions from a club or a professional instuctor.

Michael B

By Chris Condon on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 03:15 am: Edit

Nadim

"If you are recovering from a failed hillclimb, you immediately put it in R, and use the engine compression to go down!"

I too have a 5-speed and was wondering if you have ever had a problem getting it into reverse once you start to head back down the hill? The first time I ever went off-roading this happened to me. I got 3/4 of the way up the hill before I I lost traction and headed back down. I immeadiately tried to get it into reverse but could not get it in. I ended up lightly pumping the brakes and that seemed to keep going straight, back to the bottom--although not quite slow enough for my liking
Do you have any hints on getting it into gear while sliding backwards? I have not had to do this in about a year (thank goodness) but should it happen again I would be interested to know if there is something else I should do in order to get it into reverse.

Chris Condon

By nadim on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 03:18 am: Edit

Guys...
I am SURE that engine braking is the Technique to use, However, Michael was right in saying that my gearing is lower (with 4.7s as well)...
Let me rephrase then:
"You should DEPEND on your engine braking, and Gently apply Brake pressure when needed"
How does that sound?
hehehe
As always, great to discuss this with you guys!
cheers

By Troy on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 04:23 am: Edit

MTB you are right. There are a few instances going down hill where brakes may be needed (like dropping off a rock, etc.). But they are few.

I'm in total disagreeance with the "brake early and often" & "Controlled skidding and releasing and then reapplying of the brakes will be far safer than acceleration. If anything when already in a downhill skid, back of brake, reorient the front wheels and gently reapply the brake-".

To practice this technique is dangerous (though, the dryer the conditions the more effective it is). You can't steer with a locked tire and you can't control a "driving" skid without throttle modulation (on or off-road). You're assuming you'll be able to regain lost traction (& thus control) by merely backing off the brake. There are slick hill descents where backing off the brake doesn't do anything with regards to the slide that you're already in. If you're already getting sideways, letting off the brake will not do anything to "pull" you back in line -- you're just going to keep going further into a sideways slide & thus, potentially, a rollover. Lightly getting on the gas allows the tires to regain traction which allows you to steer, keep the truck in control, and take advantage of compression braking (& yes, if you go to bigger tires, you'll need to lower the gears; but in stock form (auto or manuel) Disco 1s are pretty awesome for compression braking). Just don't stay on the gas once the tires have regained traction!

So Emilio, as everyone has said, check out a club or instructor. You may also want to check out www.bb4wa.com and even the LR owners manuel - there's some good off-road driving tips on there for beginners.
Troy

By Simon. on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 04:42 am: Edit

Chris I think your gear box is not working properly.. It should Always go in reverse.. smoothly.. is either that or you did not press the clutch pedal good enough.. sometimes that could happen if the shit gets hairy...

maybe PK could help you better here he knows the inside of the gear boxes very well.

PK are you out there?

Simon.

By Chris Condon on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 05:11 am: Edit

Your probably right Simon, I most likely did not depress the clutch all the way. I have never had any problems with shifting other than that. Your also right on count two, It was hairy! The hill was extremely steep and when I stopped moving forward, I started moving backwards really fast! I doubt it is a problem with the gear box---all my problems tend to be operator error

Chris

By Moe on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 05:36 am: Edit

Now I know why Nadim was offering the engine braking technique--he has the gears for it I completely disagree that stock Discos (US autos) have decent engine braking. It sucks even with the little tires.

"There are slick hill descents where backing off the brake doesn't do anything with regards to the slide that you're already in."

I agree there are situations like this, but regaining any control from a full sideways slide is not likely if there are any trees, drop-offs, or rocks. If you can accelerate out of that problem, without a clear field below, I would be impressed.

The sideways slide example begs a question: what got you into the slide to begin with? A little too much momentum at the start?. Maybe you were relying on that awesome engine braking power and it got away from you

By nadim on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:03 am: Edit

Moe,

My 4.7s are due to my 32" tires and soon to be 34"..so I am not really that low geared (the disco that is, I AM)

Anyhow...even with the 29" and 3.54s...engine braking MUSt and WAS and WILL always be the backbone of the decent...braking is only used SELDOMLY and with the right amount and timing...

Cheers

By mike w on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:14 am: Edit

being i to am somewaht new to two track off road vehicles i will add this and please all correct me if i am wrong... but my single track experence was that if you are in doubt gas it out! never failed me!

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:38 am: Edit

first gear, low gear range, and center diff locked is the way to go (or selecting reverse gear if you have to back out). Sit back and enjoy the ride, giving gas where needed. If you're so damn steep and there's rocks that you may not clear, then brake carefully as needed. You're going so slow in 1-low that you are not likely to break anything if you hit rocks/bumps/ruts. Furthermore, bent steering links or scuffed rim are better than rollover any day.

Hitting the gas to regain traction may seem counterintuitive if you're new, but it's the way to go with controlling traction downhill or in high-speed cornering.

By nadim on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:41 am: Edit

Preach it Bill!

By Mike J. (Mudd) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 07:56 am: Edit

Amen!

By Discosaurus on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 08:01 am: Edit

Failed ascents should be the NUMBER ONE item you practice when you're off road. You DO use your time off road to practice, don't you ??

Failed ascents can be deadly (just read Emilio's posts again and imagine this taking place on a canyon wall road, 1000' above the Colorado River in UT). That whole forward to reverse gear change should be second nature for anyone doing serious offroading. With an autobox it's pretty simple but, those of us who choose to shift for ourselves need to practice that wrist movement. I own gearbox equipped vehicles with THREE different reverse gear locations and need to concentrate on which one I'm driving - the LR gets driven the LEAST of the three.

Here's a test for you - what would you do ? Act it out while sitting in your office chair right now.

Climb steep rocky loose hill...
Stall engine (gearbox equipped...) 5 feet from crest because you're a bonehead and used 3rd instead of 2nd (pulling an example of my own )...
Start slowly sliding backwards with stalled engine and truck in 3rd gear...
OK - start test !

Did you pass or are you now a bleeding mass of pulp trapped in your crushed toy

I feel so alive! hehehe

keith
discosaurus

By nadim on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

Passed..

1. 'double declutch' into reverse
2. take left foot off clutch while 'slowly' going downhill backwards
3. engine is on
4. use engine compression and left foot 'slightly' on brakes IF needed
5. get to level ground
6. change underwear

By Simon on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 09:02 am: Edit

Chris I actualy did have a problem with reverse before I changed my gearbox the damn reverse did not work at all...

but I completely agree that a hairy situation would do things to you.... we all been there or will be there...

hehe

Simon

By Milan on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 11:18 am: Edit

I think some of the confusion on whether to accelerate or not comes from the fact that Troy's talking about going forward whereas the original post referred to going backwards. Going forward, accellerating seems to work well. Going backwards it seems to make matters worse unless you can straighten the wheels before you accellerate.

I, too, believe in braking early and keeping the speed under control as the autos don't allow for taking much advantage of engine compression.

As to not being able to shift into reverse with a manual, it does happen even with properly working trannies. Reverse gears are rarely synchronized and so once the truck starts moving, you can't shift even if you have the clutch to the floor. Locking up the wheels with your brakes and then shifting while the drivetrain is not moving would work. However, if you have gathered up some speed already it might not be a good idea to lock them up. Also by the time you release the clutch you better be on the gas as well as the reverse would just lock up the wheels anyway at that point.

Try what Simon described and imagine you're not on loose rocks but snow and ice. Things happen in a hurry and the need for diper changes comes just as quick. Especially if instead of reverse you find 4th (this is on a Jeep) and stall the truck again, now going backwards with no power steering, no brakes and the wheels locked. Hehehe.

By Troy on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 06:10 pm: Edit

We're on the same general wavelength -- the technique works on a failed hill climb or a descent. But, as always, like I and others have mentioned, know where your wheels are pointed.

Moe,
I'm not referring to full on sideways slide. I'm referring to that point where the tires lose traction and the uphill side of the truck starts to come around on you. If you use the throttle correctly, you'll never get to the "full sideways slide" you mention. . The quicker you catch it, the less throttle you'll have to use to drive it out. If all the wheels are pointed straight when the tires lose traction, then it'll only take a "blip" on the gas to regain traction. If the rearend (or front, whichever is uphill) is starting to come around on you when you lose traction, it'll probably take a little more foot.

Sure would be nice if we all were having this discussion around a campfire after a good day of wheeling . . . 8^}
Troy

By Moe on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 08:18 pm: Edit

A campfire would work well, as there is no single method or science for driving off-road and it is more about intution--sometimes sticking to the rules, sometimes breaking them, and sometimes inventing new rules.

Troy, thanks for the clarification. You are right, just a 'blip' might pull you straight and get the rear end back behind you so you can control the rig. Your most important point is about knowing where the front wheels are pointing. In the situation you mention, just by backing off 'all' foot controls and steering might offer the same control.

As Keith alludes to, when you start sliding of a failed climb with a stalled engine, all this shit is out the window.

By Troy on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 03:51 am: Edit

Agreed -- especially in an auto-
Troy

By Simon on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 08:49 am: Edit

agree with the campfire..

now Milan you got me confused and I went and tried it and my gear box does the reverse thing perfectly no grinding no nothing..

disclaimer: I did it in the parking lot ramp


Simon.

By Milan on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Simon,
It only applies to unsynchronized gears which I think most reverses are but am not sure about rovers.

You also have to have some speed before it becomes hard to put in gear. You could rev the engine and match the revs so the gears would mesh but normally, when you roll back you usually move to fast to be able to match the revs anyway, especially in low range. At least this has been my experience.

It also becomes more pronounced with deeper gears. I.e. My fullsize Bronco has 6.69:1 first and 7.1:1 reverse (I think), both unsynchronized, and it's pretty much impossible to shift into first or reverse with the truck moving at anything but creeping pace.

Discussions by a campfire are right on.

By Jack C. on Saturday, August 04, 2001 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Moe

Have you had "Physics" class ever? Go to review it before getting on your magic rover's seat.

Jack

By Moe on Saturday, August 04, 2001 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Jack, do you ever off-road?

By Jack C. on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 10:18 am: Edit

19-yr rover experience. currently series III, disco I and 99' disco II owner. living in North England.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 10:43 am: Edit

Jack , I see your point but to some that just comes natuarally. I think those end up better then someone who needs to be taught it.. Geometry comes largly into play as well..


Kyle

By Moe on Sunday, August 05, 2001 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Ok Jack, so you owned Rovers for some years and I hope you have made use of them in Southern Scottland My reaction is to the 'never use the brakes, use the engine braking, and just accelerate our of danger' line. This can be the correct advice in only a few situations. My Disco does not have good engine braking. With this thread in mind, yesterday while descending a moderate trail I tried to let the engine brake for me. Low 1 is fine for the easy stuff but the rig would bounce and get out of control as soon as 1' boulders starting getting in the way. Through the washouts, the only way to control it was to keep on the brake early, edge the rig up to the point where the tires are about to shear and then drop in and give a bit of steady fuel out. In the gravel pit, on a wide open hill, accelerating out of slide became a luxury--just pointing the wheels in the right direction did the job. The problem here is that at the bottom lay a huge crossaxle that wcould roll the Disco if it entered with too much speed. Sorry no degree in physics here, but I do handle the Disco well off-raod.

By Simon on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit

ok.. did it again.. (parking ramp) accelerated in reverse, got it to neutral let off the clutch pedal, let the revs go idle, pressed clutch pedal put it in reverse , let go the clutch pedal... no grinding.. no nothing just engine brake...

I think in a hairy situation "anyone" could easily fuck up experienced or not...

in my home country we have deadly steep shit as a normal driving... now here in miami... the only hill you see is a land feel full of vultures flying around.. hehehe

Simon