By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:19 am: Edit

When I took my 96 Disco into local LR center regarding rust they pulled the vehicle's service record and...voila! It had NEVER been taken in to LR for a service after 7k miles. Since it was a LR lease vehicle but never serviced there, I'm pretty sure the POS owner blew off maintenance beyond basic. I'm guessing no fluids were EVER changed except the oil. I bought it at almost 60k and have put about 10k on it since November.

Anyway, the truck came home and got parked. I've picked up the full 60k service lubes and got to work. Here's some of what I found and what I'm worried about. I'm not in front of my book now, so please ignore some minor errors w/ capacity numbers.

-Front Swivel mounts: These are supposed to take about .34 L each. When I opened them up and drained them, I got out a dark black sludge and only enough to fill a shot glass each (at the most). There was also some build up of a rust colored film on most of the internal surfaces I could see / get to (including the back of the bolts). I added the new lube until it reached the fill valve on each side. Per the book, I'm using a GL5. A synthetic GL5 is the only one I could find (PepBoys).

-Front & Rear Axel Diffs: The mess that poured out of these was closer to the expected amount, but still a dark grey color and thicker than whole milk in consistency. Same fluid as the diffs.

-Auto Trans: Consistency and amount looked about right, but the color was serveral shades darker than the new stuff. There were also a lot of tiny metal shavings stuck to magnet on the drain plug. I have not changed the filter yet (see below). Dexrol III. Tried finding Dexrol IID from six stores (PepBoys, NAPA, VIP and some "locals"), but all said it was no longer available and I verified in some DiscoWeb posts that others are using Dexrol III.

-Grease Lubrication: In a seperate thread... please take a look there if you have advice.

I am taking the truck up to Rover Fest this weekend and when I get back I'm going to re-do the entire fluid drain / refil again (I will be doing the Trans filter at that time). I will probably repeat the fluid change again in about another 10k (but not the trans filter), hoping that these additional changes will flush the components pretty well.

My worry is that I do not know what damage might have been done as a result of the previous owner's neglect. I do not have the tools or facilities to open these components up myself. Are there any warning signs I should keep an eye out for beyond the obvious (sever leaks, smells, etc.). I am so paranoid of noises now that I don't even know which sounds I should be worried about and which ones are acceptable. I am considering taking it down to my local dealer in the near future and have them look it over, but I'm sure they (being a business) will find many things wrong...it's just an issue of which are REALLY wrong.

If anyone has some additional advise on what I should do, please let me know. I'm trying to handle most of the work myself, but will take it for service on anything beyond my scope.

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA

By Ron on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

How much fluid went into the swivels? Are you sure you used the right holes to fill and for the level plug? The sludge could just ahve been the grease that they use (10 a tube from the dealer).

Difs I would not be too concerned as longs as there was something in there (I have seen series difs run with almost no oil and they are usually fine when you refill them).

Main thing I would look out for are bearing noises, general slop and also problems where you get increased drag from the drivetrain when it heats up (ie on a long trip if feels like something is dragging and you have a perceived loss of power).

Other than that enjoy.

Ron

PS don't bother taking it to the dealer, try an indepentent, plenty in your area

By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:36 am: Edit

Thanx for the quick input, Ron.

I filled the swivles thru the the larger (13mm?) bolt at the top. I cannot attest to the exact amount since I had to use a small hand pump due to the fact that there's not enough clearance to tip a bottle up there very well. I filled them to the level where the fluid reached the "level" hole (11mm bolt located in a very piss-pour location about midway down the swivel chamber, partly behind large mounting bolt). I have a copy of the maintenance section of the service manual and use it as a guide thru this process.

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA

By Ron on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:58 am: Edit

If it had the grease in it would not drain well (if at all) and you would not have been able to put much in. This would be great and mean no problems as the grease is a fill a forget proposition. In any case, if it does not leak I would not worry as that probably means it had enough fluid in it when you started. If it does leak then you should worry but there is nothing you can really do about any damage incurred other than to fix the leak and fill with grease of 90wt.

Cheers
Ron

By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 06:13 am: Edit

The fluid that came out did drain well and if it started it's life as grease it didn't seem to end it that way (it was no thicker than a McDonnalds shake). There was a grease-like substance on the exterior of the housing, where the ball meets the housing, but it didn't feel anything like what came out of the unit. The fluid I put in was a 90W GL5 synthetic gear oil (PepBoys recommendation based on the discription in my service manual). If this initially had a grease in it and I'm now running the oil, could this be a Bad Thing? I would happily drain the oil back out today and filling it w/ grease if that's prefered, and someone can tell me exactly what type (brand, what stores carry, etc).

I have not taken the vehicle out and run it yet since the change, so I don't know of any leaks. I wouldn't be surprised to have some show up since I switched over to a synthetic (I have a little more leaking around my oil pan since that went synth two changes ago). If it starts leaking bad, how hard is it to replace the seal around where the ball meets the housing?

Any other suggestions or points of interrest? I'm just a little paranoid... maintenance is cheap and I enjoy doing them. Repairs are expensive and a PITA.

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA

By Chris Browne on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 06:37 am: Edit

Cheapskate PO put on those junk tires too didn't he....

By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 06:49 am: Edit

:-) You know it, Chris!!! :-)
I ditched those the day after our ride. I didn't go "all out" but did put some Mich XCLTs with a much better tread pattern. I've been able to play with more confidence since then. We have a few other additions to make, but I hope to pick up a set of "serious" tires next spring.

Will we see you up at RoverFest this weekend?

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA

By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 06:55 am: Edit

BTW, Chris, what do you run in the swivles on Baron?

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA

By Moe on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 07:07 am: Edit

"If this initially had a grease in it and I'm now running the oil, could this be a Bad Thing?"

I don't know if it is a bad thing, but I have not had a problem with mine. Under warranty, the dealer replaced a swiwel ball seal but ended up putting grease back in instead of 90wt oil. So I had oil in one housing and grease in the other About 5k miles ago, I drained the grease and replaced with oil. I have since changed it 3 times to try and flush the grease out, but it still looks a bit contaminated with grease--maybe a few more flushes will do it. I believe the proper method is to dismantle, clean, and reassemble, which might be a good idea for you as your seals could be shot.

There is a good chance that if you had grease and questionable seals, that the new oil is likely to leak some.

By Ron on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 07:26 am: Edit

Grease and oil mixing is not a problem. The "grease" is actually a heavy wt oil with moly particles or some such thing. Only available from the LR dealer or LR parts place although I here some other manufacturers make it as well (Tractors or something) I like it better, some like 90wt better, whatever no sense in starting a fight. You can mix the two fine and you can run them interchangably. Changing seals I am not sure as I have not done it on a coiler. Not too tough I imagine. Grease leaks a lot less and you can usually just get away with switching to grease from 90wt if you leak a little.

Cheers
Ron

PS don't use regular grease of LR grease or 90wt (140wt works ok too I guess)

By Chris Browne on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 07:30 am: Edit

Its grease on both sides, there is no harm as far as I can tell running a mix

By Tom P. on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 07:53 am: Edit

L Tilly,

I would drive it a bit, then change the fluids (trans, swivels, diffs) again BEFORE Rover Fest. Mostly it's just extra work, but I strongly believe that you should change your trans fluid once more before your change the filter. Then after you change the filter, maybe change the trans fluid 1-2 more times. It's cheap ($) to do.

I change my trans fluid every 9-10k miles, and the filter every 30k. That ZF runs better than new...

Tom P.

By Redsrover (Redsrover) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit

When filling the SPH make sure to turn the wheel on the side you are filling all the way out to completely open the fill hole. If you try and fill them with the wheel straight, you'll never get them full.

Ron

By L_Tilly on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 09:29 am: Edit

Ron,
There's a nice tip that's not in the book!!! Thanx!

By Chris Merritt (Smokinbro) on Thursday, August 09, 2001 - 04:19 am: Edit

Took mine into a quicky lube place yesterday for an oil change. Also had them do the swivels. ($ 7.50 each) they also asked me to turn the wheels all the way to the sides for access.

By Daniel on Thursday, August 09, 2001 - 11:59 am: Edit

I'd like to know what the 60k lubes are and, if it's not too much to post, where exactly you have to apply them. Also, are these garden variety greases/oils/whatever, or do I need to get something special? If so where from? I have ordered (won on e-bay rather) the LR shop manual, but I'm still waiting for it to come in. This story makes me worry that I might run into the same problem with my lease returned truck. It's at about 70k now, too.
Thanks in advance,
Daniel

By Perrone Ford on Thursday, August 09, 2001 - 01:11 pm: Edit

There are no worthwhile shortcuts when it comes to maintenance, especially lubrication. Using synthetic greases and oils is better from both a protectcion standpoint and a friction standpoint. Using Molybdenum grease in high stress parts is expensive but well worth it. There is no magic grease or oil.

I use Mobil 1 EP grease with Moly additives in my grease gun. Its one of the best off-the-shelf greases you can buy. I use it for wheel bearings, U-Joints, and anything else that requires grease. It doesn't wash out as easily as white lithium grease and contains pressure additives that lithium grease doesn't.

I am converting my truck over to synthetics in a month or so when it turns 100k. I intend to use Royal Purple oil. Its a full synthetic and as such it's expensive. Amsoil (full synthetic) or Red Line are similar but this is easier for me to get.

I will still maintain the same lubrication schedule since I use my truck off-road and I wade. Just because you use synthetics doesn't mean you wont get contamination. Thats why the LR grease for the swivel housings is a joke. When you're diff oil gets nasty, the same contamination is in your swivel housing, only now, it has to be disassembled to clean it, instead of draining out the 90wt oil. Foolishness.

-P

By Rico on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 04:59 pm: Edit

When doing my 60k service I noticed that the greese I was taking out of the swivel housing was alot thicker the the 90w. I only changed the one side until I could go by the dealer to find out what greese they used. People that I talked to said the 90w that I put in the one side would be O.K. About one month later I had oil coming out that side.Maybe it was just coincidence,but I think I'll stay with using greese. Luckily I had an extended warranty.

Rico

By Perrone Ford on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit

Rico,

LR sarted going to grease because the seals on the swivel pin housing are a pretty poor design. They DO leak and the seals need to be replaced periodically. The grease doesn't flow out as easily, so dealers see less warranty work (better for Rover). The are really two big problems with this:

1. The heavy grease doesn't flow that well until it gets hot, so you are spending a lot of time with the metal parts in the housing NOT getting proper lubrication.

2. Just because the grease isn't getting out through worn seals, it doesn't mean that water and dirt aren't getting in! So what you find is that the weak seals are allowing all kinds of crap into the swivel housing unknown to the owner. That crap is getting into your CV joint and other bits. And guess what, since you have grease, you can't flush it like you would 90wt. The entire hub assembly has to be dismantled, cleaned, re-fit, and then filled with grease again. All so that LR can have less warranty claims.

You use grease if you want. I'll keep my 90wt and replace the fluids regularly and the seals when needed. By the way, I have 96k miles on my truck, have been religious about the maintenance, and my seals do NOT leak a drop. NONE.

-P

By L_Tilly on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 08:32 am: Edit

I was able to do two flushes of my swivles and diffs before Rover Fest. I'm going to do the flush again this weekend and see how things are looking. My second flush w/ 90wt still had particles coming out of the swivles, although the diffs were looking better. I have a follow-up question I hope some one can help with, but since it's pretty involved, I'll post a new topic.

L_Tilly lnctilly@mediaone.net
96 Disco "Beowulf" - NH, USA