By JCabrera on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Hello I picked up my car from our local LR mechanic. I had the rotors and brake pads (front & back) replaced. I noticed the brake pedal “mushy” and it requires more pressure for it to brake (more pressure to apply). Please help and tell me what the problem could be. I need to call the mechanic first thing on Monday. It is 96-Disco

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 03:01 am: Edit

You may want to start by just doing a simple bleed. They may have gotten some air in them some how during the precess..

Kyle

By Perrone Ford on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 05:23 am: Edit

Hola Jose!

It sounds as though a bleed may be in order, but unless I miss my guess, you guys have ABS brakes. Bleeding the whole thing is the best route, but requires some equipment. You may want to take it back and have them "pressure bleed" the brakes. If you were closer you could do it at my "garage".

-P

By Steve (Steve2) on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 05:29 am: Edit

jc-

not sure how long you have had your disco1 - but
1: they do require longer stopping/harder pedal pressure than most other cars. some of it might be normal. (perhaps go drive another like car and try those brakes out?)
2: i have found that some brake pads are overly hard and do not grip the rotors as well as the factory ones do.
3: definately check for air in the hydraulic system. if the fluid has not been renewed in the last 24 months, with the hydroscopic (sp?) nature of the fluid it should be done anyway.
4: most unlikely if you keep adding brake fluid, show no leaks and the level is dropping - might have a faulty brake booster.

best of luck
steve

By Chris Merritt (Smokinbro) on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 06:18 am: Edit

if the mechanic did the brakes - make him fix them- you paid good money for a brake job. If the job is faulty....don't you think that he would want to fix it, so that if/when you have an accident you don't sue him to the poor house?

By Rico on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Jose,
Did you put on the vented rotors? That shouldn't affect the braking. I was just wondering if you had them put on.
Did you go with the Kevlar pads? That could be part of the problem. Mine have been "mushy" since I put them on. I even bled the brakes again and it didn't help. Have the brakes bled again and if they are still mushy then its probably the brake pads.

Say high to the family

Rico

By Milan on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 04:40 am: Edit

If the brakes are mushy right after rotor and pad replacement, that's normal. They do need some time to seat. Give it a week or so fo driving in traffic. You should not brake too hard until they seat either or you may glaze the pads or rotors.

If they are exessively mushy (and I'm not sure how to define that for you), you should take the truck back and have the mechanic check it out. It could be any one of the above suggested problems or a master cylinder gone bad.

By Perrone Ford on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 04:55 am: Edit

Milan,

Are you familar with the term "burnishing brakes"? You may want to check it out since almost every racing vehicle in the world on 2 or 4 wheels uses a technique of VERY hard braking followed by periods of cooling to prep new brakes.

If you use gentle braking for extended periods on new pads and rotors, you WILL glaze them. This is the reasoning behind cross drilling brakes. It allows for constant scuffing of the brake pads to eliminate brake glazing. Slots are typically cut in rotors to handle off-gassing by the pads.

Also, kevlar pads have almost no use on a street vehicle. I'm surprised they are sold. They aren't even used in most forms of racing unless braking temps are consistenly over 700F. Kevlar doesn't reach adequate temps on a street vehicle to even become effective. In fact, the Castrol brake fluid we are supposed to use in our trucks boils at lower temperature than the effective heat range for kevlar pads. Almost all racers using kevlar pads are running Castrol SRF at ($80/liter).

But as usual, don't take my word for it, go look it up.

-P

By Milan on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 09:38 am: Edit

All I can say is that for racing apps you have the rotors and pads that can take the heat of hard braking and you most likely have a person behind the wheel/brake pedal who knows what he/she is doing when bedding the brakes.

On a street application you should not stomp on the brakes right away beacuse if the pads are not seated properly, the brake pads surface area will be smaller than normal and the surface will glaze. You may also warp the rotors in the process. I have always seated my brakes by using light then moderate pressure. I would not ride the brakes but rather brake progressively. I.e. apply brake and keep increasing the pressure until full stop. I would brake hard a few times after that and then again refrain from braking hard for a while. This may be done in one outing but I would usually repeat the procedure for few days (on a daily driver) as the process of bedding/seating brakes is also progressive. If you note, the "not braking hard for a while" serves the purpose of cooling the brakes.

I also noted that brakes usally get better after about a week of driving even with this procedure which is what confirms my theory (at least for me) that under normal driving conditions the brakes do need some time to seat.

I agree that if you "ride" brakes or if your pads drag, you may glaze them as well and you don't have to brake hard. Glazing is a direct result of heat buildup and so it can be done by either light pressure at speed and/or over extended period of time or, in my opinion, by hard pressure when pads are not seated.

Racers also break engines in in about 30 mins to one hour after the cam shaft has been broken in. Would you suggest this expedient routine to a regular driver and his truck?

By Perrone Ford on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 01:59 pm: Edit

The procedure of burnishing in brakes encompasses all that you described in your message. I did not mean to imply that you simply go out and go 90mph and stomp on the brakes. This is why I suggested the poster read up on it.

My point was simply that if burnishing procedures are followed the brakes can be seated and the finish brought up to maximum spec in one session provided it is done properly. In fact, the procedure calls for doing exactly what you described including a set of progressively stronger stops followed by a good period of cooling. Usually for street cars, it's done on the highway between exits.

I would suggest to anyone who has a new enigne or a camshaft to break it in according to the manufacturers specifications. Edelbrock, Crane, Comp Cams, and Isky all suggest running the engine at around 2k rpm for 20 minutes to allow the cam and lifters to seat properly, and to burn off the assembly lube. If you have some method that is superior to the procedure they find works (and they warranty to) after millions of dolalrs of research, then by all means let me know. I've got a chevy 350 build up to do in a few months and I appreciate all intelligent advice.


And just to finish on topic, I have never had mushy brakes after a brake swap. But I tend to use top quality pads and rotors, and always do a full bleed afterwards. Your experiences and preferences may differ.
-P

By Milan on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Perrone,
I think we're talking about the same thing though from a slightly different perspective. All I was saying is, that unless you take the time to actually run the vehicle for just the brake seating, it will take a few runs. In my case about a week of normal driving. If you do take it on a run to seat the brakes and go through the motions, I'm sure you can do it in one afternoon, though I still think some additional seating will happen afterwards. BTW, I do not like mushy brakes and mine seem to be OK (factory feel) so far which is actually rather soft for my tastes but functional nevertheless.

As for braking in engines, I used that as an example of race prep versus factory recommendations. I do not have any special procedures. What I meant also applied to a break-in period after the camshaft is broken in and the valves are seated (the 2000rpm run you mentioned). I was strictly refering to seating the piston rings and all the engine bearings. It can be done with few progressive (that word again) runs where you gradually apply more load. It involves complete cooling and change of oil between the major stints (be they on a street or on a dyno). But again, while it can be done, I will let time work for me. I break my engines in a bit slower i.e. almost as per manufacturer's specs.

Same could be applied for breaking in new gears. You can run them at moderate/progressive loads for 20 minutes, then let them cool off, then repeat. Then when done change the oil. Or you can just go relatively easy on them (not towing) for 200 miles or so. Then change the oil and you're set.

I think it's just a matter of approach and the principles stay the same (and they should).

I've beaten this to death now, so that's it for me but if you have more input, please respond. I enjoy intelligent conversations.

By JCabrera on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 07:36 pm: Edit

ALL IS WELL!!!!

Thank you very much to all of you. As I started my journey to Hungry Valley Saturday morning, I was very concerned about my brakes. But after reading all your postings and after a couple of very steep down hills and some work on the new brake pads and rotors, all seem OK now. Stopping power is back.

Rico: Yes I did put the vented rotors and Kevlar pads.
Perrone: “Garage”? Is this a new business venture?

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 03:03 am: Edit

Milan:

I think you're right. We were probably talking about the same thing from two different perspectives. And in any event, Jose is out of the woods now!

Jose:

My Garage is just that. I am slowly turning the garage of my house into a service facility. Not professional by any means, but with most tools to do real work. My shop press goes in sometime in November, and hopefully an engine crane and stand after Christmas. I can't fit an electronic lift, so I just have a large trolley jack, stands, ramps, etc. I am thinking of renting warehouse space with some other members of the club to pool resources so we can have welding, a lift, paint booth, etc. Who knows what 2002 will bring.

-P

By JCabrera on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 07:11 am: Edit

Perrone,

The best of luck to you (make sure to post some pics on your site, going to see your garage from California in kind of too far now). You are a very knowledgeable person and it is very nice of you share that with other Land Rover owners.

By Rico on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Perrone,
About siping tires. I can find anyone down here in Tampa that seems to know what siping is.If you know of some place in Florida that does it please let me know.

Thanks
Rico

By Jason94Disco on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:22 am: Edit

Ditto on Kelvar pads, my brakes become mushy, and I can't even lock the wheels (before the ABS react) in the rain. My old LR stock can lock the brake in the wet (for a split second before ABS takes over). I bleed it few more times, still mushy.

I had complain to the vendor about the Kelvar pads, and was able to switch to Factory LR pad. With nothing else change except the pads, the brakes have firm pedal feel and graps better.

my2cents
Jason94Disco

By Pvt Joker on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Good God....I thought Perrone ONLY forced his overdone opinions on posters at the RN BBS. Whats the matter, getting bored over there? As I remember, you don't have much good to say about Disco owners: something like "Disco owners tend not to be able to afford to maintain their trucks like Range Rover owners do" or some such BS. Give us a break and go back where you came from.

By Perrone Ford on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:49 pm: Edit

That's strange, as most people I wheel with either have discos or D90s since most RR owners are too pompous to take their expensive trucks off-road. However, if you only came here to criticize, you can forget it. I've had quite good experiences with many people on this board and hope to have many more.

If you've got RR envy keep it to yourself. And to clear the air, I said many disco owners that I have met to have bought down from RRs to get into a Rover cheaper, but have skimped on the maintenance. Most enthusiasts (like the one frequenting this board) tend to be fanatical about maintaining their trucks which is terrific.

If you have nothing to add but giving me a hard time, take off. I don't need the bother. And why can't you guys who have sh*t to talk EVER manage to post your name. Are you scared?

-P

By MTB on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Well said Perrone They were one of those kids that would wait until they got a block away then called you a asshole.

Michael B

By Gil Stevens (Gil) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:45 am: Edit

why does it seem that where Perrone goes trouble seems to follow? The RN BBS is now a mockery of what it once was and Id hope that this board doesnt turn into the same thing...is the "elDave" clown coming here as well. "RR envy"...cmon buddy, you have a 91 Classic, great rig, and Im sure it treats you well, but there isnt all that much to envy there.

By Perrone Ford on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:59 am: Edit

Gil,

I wasn't implying that my RR was all that much, everyone knows it and so do I. I guess I pissed someone off some coward along the way and rather than confront me they try to make trouble wherever they find me.

Sorry to the rest of you.

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:44 am: Edit

LOL , a "A 350 chevy build" lol , just leave it dead where it lays , the world will be a better place...

Kyle

By Ben Gott on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:56 am: Edit

thats crazy... 91 classic, i don't think anyone here is like "damn, that guys got ALL the doe..."

haha..

oh here is my name and my email address!

Ben Gott, BenGott@peo.com

By Wont tell YOU my email address on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Oh yeah, a RR 91 is not something that most people would envy, considering that you can buy them all day long for less than 10k. DON'T BE PRESUMPTOUS THAT WHEN SOMEONE CRITICIZES YOU THEY ARE ENVIOUS OF YOU! I just don't want you to ruin this board like you have the RN Board. Your condesending remarks are unwelcome here: nobody likes an "expert" who is mainly tooting his own horn. People come here to get good advice, not getting a lecture from you and your million questions that you ask posters. As far as I can tell from your comments, you don't even have a Discovery, so why bother us? By the way, I don't think that the previous poster was cowardly, just didn't want you harrasing him on his email. What do you want, a password for everyone like on RN so that you can snivel to someone about the "abuse" you are taking? GO AWAY.......

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:28 pm: Edit

man, who gives a shit either way? everyone taking things personally. This is supposed to be informative (& at times entertaining). everyone chill out - you'll live longer.

By ben gott on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:37 pm: Edit

i'll go with blue gill on this one.. i just can't pass up a chance to roast somebody!!

thanks to all who have helped me!!!!

ben

By MTB on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:28 pm: Edit

Anytime you have a BBS like this there is always someone that thinks they know it all. My way is always better than your way and I bet I can piss farther than you can BLAH BLAH. If you don't like or think it is right than dispute it you don't have to attack people. That is the quickest way to make this Great Site like RN BBS. Although this site says Discoweb I am sure they want every Land Rover owner too enjoy the site.
So lets get over the little kids games and enjoy. So far no one has ever come across I'm better than you becuase I drive this lets keep it that way.

Michael B

By Andrew Vick (Afv) on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:07 am: Edit

If this site turns into another RN BBS, I'm selling the Disco and getting a Caddy-PIMPIN! (The fastest SUV in the World)

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:13 am: Edit

I liked someone's comment about pimpin farm animals with the Caddy pickup (or was it that dumb-ass Lincoln Blackwood?). Hmmmm....a vehicle even more luxurious than a Disco that is capable of hauling.....cow shit. Wonderful. I bet they sell a handful of these mutant vehicles to rock stars and NFL players. They will all be used for pimping, buying crack, and drive-by shootings. Hey guys, check out my garage - a Lincoln Blackwood, Pontiac Aztec, and a Pontiac Fiero...ain't I the coolest?

By Milan on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 06:25 am: Edit

BG,
You have a Fiero? You ARE the coolest! Hahahahahaha