By Curious on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit

how hard is it, and what do I need to buy other than the gears?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Gears and install kits. Diffs are a good idea if you dont already have traction diffs. That ofcourse leads you to HD axles....

Kyle

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:01 pm: Edit

The easiest way to do it is to buy prebuilt third members. Just drop out the old ones and install the new ones. Send old ones back for refund. Also gives you an excuse to put in a set of traction diffs. About $2000 w/o HD axles, about another $700 with. This is with detroit diffs. ARB is more expensive. Hard pill to swallow, but the benefits are tremendous.

Alex

By Perrone Ford on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:09 pm: Edit

doing a ring an pinion setup is NOT a DIY job. the tolerance between getting it right, and toasting your diff is about .003 of an inch.

-P

By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Perrone, please enlighten us on how to install the diffs and set up the gears. By your posts on this board and the numerous posts on several mailing lists, you seem to be an expert on everything.

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Man, we really seem to have attracted some assholes here lately. Maybe its time to make user registration mandatory for posting?

Alex

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Perrone come on here! That's true on a Dana axle but not so true on a rover third member. Yes the skill level is high , but can be done by many on this board!

There is some good tech on the how to here:
http://www.d-90.com/tech/arb.html

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Someone say asshole ?? They are kinda touchy Robert but I would say .020 or so could make or break it. Probably less on new ones.. That pinion depth is the real bitch..


Kyle

By greg on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:04 pm: Edit

what are the benifits of doing all this? just wanna know before i drop the cash..
greg

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Reagaining power after bigger tires. Enging breaking. Basically all that was lost when the big meats went on.. and then some.

Kyle

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Anyway you guys could add the IP address to a post to stop the BS from Mr Anonnous types? Just a thought Would the Mr Annonnous care to step forward and discuss this like a man?

By Troy on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 05:23 pm: Edit

One word -- TEDIOUS. I'm in the middle of it right now with the help of an experienced friend. I wouldn't recommend a go at it alone until you've done a set or 2. It's not unreasonable, you just have to know what you're doing inside and out -- literally.
Troy

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Oldscout - good idea.. You don't see these dicks just ducking in for a cheap shot and then skipping out on email lists where you have to subscribe, etc.

The moderators know the IPs of all the posters on here, so they can track them down if there is serious abuse.

I say make 'em register to post. Don't wanna register? Then just read, ok?

But its not my board so its not my call.

By ericrat on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 05:55 pm: Edit

It is as old as electronic communication at least, I used to run BBS systems in the dark ages when you could know everyone online in a good sized city. People type things they would never say in person.

For what it is worth everyone here has treated me well even though I am "new" around here. I have had an offer of help installing springs and a compressor, all is well.

I have assisted on several gear changes, I have never done one alone and probably could. The last was at the track last minute rush job that didn't leave much time for instruction. If .003 between success and failure, perhaps a conservative figure, doesn't bother you than go to it.

I am sure you can find someone trustworthy to assist. I have seen it done in less than an hour, and there are pictures on this very site of SOMEONE doing it a parking lot balanceing on a tow ball. As with all of it, if you take you time in a reasonably equipped garage you can build anything.

At least, that is what I think!

By Perrone Ford on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 06:27 pm: Edit

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across as an "expert" on gearing because God KNOWS I've not done one yet. I made a call to Steve Johnson at Dixleland Rovers today because he is the only person within 5 hours drive that I trust.

I got that figure (or maybe it was .030 and I screwed up) from Bill at Great Basin when I enquired about adding an ARB. I'd say he probably knows a couple things about diff setup.

As for making people register to post, I really don't care. I post my name to everything. If I screw up then so be it. I get corrected. In truth, my rover is the first vehicle I've turned a wrench on and everything I know I've learned in the last 14 months from enthusiasts like the ones here and from my manuals and books. I am most appreciative.

-P

By MTB on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Is it easier to change your gears if you are adding lockers at that time. I have never done one before but it does not look hard if you are adding lockers.

Alex was that price for front and back or just for one. And is it before refund or after.

Thanks
Michael B

By Moe on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 07:47 pm: Edit

From my understanding Great Basin Rovers (and maybe sometime soon Expedition Exchange) will swap a single third member with 4.11 gears and locker/traction diff starting around $1100+ for a TT and then a bit more for the DL and more for the ARB. Above the gears and traction diff, the cost includes labor, bearings, and seals. GBR offers some refund $ for the return of stock carrier and ring and pinion gears in good condition. HD axles start around $600--so a complete swap, front and rear, with hd rears comes close $3k--ouch. Maybe, not too bad considering how many $ in accessories are hanging on the outside of our rigs.

You could save money and have someone throw it together locally, or maybe even do it yourself, although getting it working might be easy, but getting it right sounds difficult.

Did the Anonymousphobes notice who this thread was started by

By MTB on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Thanks Moe I assume you started this thread. I find it funny that people would be afraid or embarassed to let them know who they are.
I know I am a asshole so it never bothered me putting my name down. E-Mail different story

Michael B

By Moe on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 08:54 pm: Edit

No, I was curious last week and now I am almost satisfied

By MTB on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Moe
Are you one of us working vampire's (nightshifters) or are you just addicted to the Discoweb

Michael B

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 04:07 am: Edit

What are the signs you messed it up?

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 04:43 am: Edit

Messed what up Ron ? The pinion depth is the most crucial part. That bastard has to be pretty much dead on. What is dead on? Well , it changes with everyone you do. There is no specific number of shims that go under the inner pinion bearing race. As far as back lash is concerned. Technically it should be around .004 for strength. Its pretty common to back it off when you have a noise issue. I have done it myself on cars that I was having problems with after a setup. As that back lash increases the pinion and ring gear contact decreases therefore making it weaker. I keep the rovers as tight and as close to that number as I can. As far as what you can get away with noise wise? Well , I did a Defender last week end that had around .025 back lash when I took it out and it had been running quiet. I put it back in at around .005 or so and it was still quiet. So there is your margin of error I suppose. I wont run a truck with a wide back lash as you are just asking for trouble... For cars that stay on the road and dont have allot of strain put on them its not such a biggie...Setting up the gears is not an easy thing. You can luck up and blindly get one right but it was just luck. In the end it all comes down to reading the pattern that you have and adjusting as neccisary.

Kyle

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 04:48 am: Edit

assholes?
with name or without name... are still assholes.

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 04:48 am: Edit

So it can be messed up and sound/act ok.

Ron

Dif in pieces now

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 04:57 am: Edit

Yep . What you working on?

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:30 am: Edit

I am putting 4.7s and an RD10 ARB in a Range Rover housing (so I don't have to use the adaptor bearings for the ARB and so I get a better/fresher housing) for my series.

I have the longer bolts and ring gear spacer.

Ron

I think it will be ok but I can't seem to get all the "wobble" out and I don't know if my ring gear is messed up or it is something else

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:33 am: Edit

wobble? You mean the run out? Ring gear isnt running true in the case?

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:35 am: Edit

Yes run out. I tried messing with the toque on the bolts but can't quite get it right and I made sure no nicks or such on the space or ring

Ron

Special ed-ing on this one.

PS forgot to check runout before I took it apart.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:38 am: Edit

Well , start by installing just the unit and check the run out on it. if its fine then add the spacer and check again. if its fine then you can have that ring gear trued if you know a machinist with the right shit...

kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:42 am: Edit

Ok,

I got some spare difs so I can get another R&P if I need it.

Maybe I can try installing the spacer orientated differently too. Was not off by much but I want it right.

Ron

PS how tough is it to do a locker on a Salisbury (Bill tells me it is the same as a D60).

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

LOL , well some of those can be a sonofabitch. I have had to use a case stretcher in the past on some . Aside from that its not a whole lot different. Just uses shims in place of spanner nuts to set the back lash. A little more time consuming as you can imagine..

Kyle

By John on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:59 am: Edit

The chamfer in the hole on the spacer should go down so it doesnt get caught on the shoulder it lays against. Is the spacer parallel(miking it), but it should be(GBR's I assume). I assume you are using a dial indicator for backlast, use it on the face of the gear as well to see runout after assembly. I have had to disassemble then reassemble to get it right on several occasions, once a couple of whacks with a lead hammer on the high spot got the last .002 runout.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 06:09 am: Edit

Good point John , ring gears are ussually chamfered on the side where it mates against the unit. All ring gear spacers have that same thing on one side.

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 06:11 am: Edit

Thanks John,

Whacking it was the next step.

Yes I am using a dial indicator. I did not bother to check the spacer (GBR, yes) I am betting on the Ring gear as it is 42 years old or so

Ron "cheapskate DIYer"

PS on the salisbury Bill was saying something about having to set it up in the case? Oh well I will worry about that later.

By John on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 06:18 am: Edit

Bill has had 2 kinds of spacers, some that were ground to be parallel, and some lazered out of the right thickness plate. The lazered should be parallel, maybe harder to pull down flat. Also a 40 + year old ring gear may just be simply warped after a 40 year grind. Lay on a flat surface and see it it rocks.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:12 am: Edit

Yeah Ron it doesnt have a removeable third member so setup has to be done in the housing. I have sene a few old ones that has covers on the back and a removeable third member but cant remember what they were out of.Because there are no spanner nuts the case is spread to get the right backlash and preload on the carrier bearings. These are 60s that I am talking about. I have never messed with the salisbury but from what I see its the same thing..

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:16 am: Edit

Kyle,

What are the odds of the average redneck DIYer (me) getting it right in under a day of work (assuming I find a manual)?

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:23 am: Edit

I would take those odds. You already basically know what you are getting into and by not having to mess with the pinion you are cutting complications down. Just get a shim kit for the thing before hand.. Drilling and all that other ARB crap will take the most time I am betting. I am not sure if you know this but all caps need to go back where they came from you should mark them before taking them off..

Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:59 am: Edit

Right,

Everything back the way it came out. The salisbury is getting a DL. The Series got an ARB because it gets flat towed.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:10 am: Edit

Hmm , then thats a quick job.... not bad at all..

Kyle

By quaddrive on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 08:22 pm: Edit

The salisbury and dana 60 centres are the same save the diff gears which have a different spline count, but bearings, ring gear etc are all the same so if you have a salisbury and find a cheap dana 60 locker see if you can buy the axle gears for the salisbury as spare parts and there you go.
Or get some custom 35 spline 1.5" axles and spindles.
Just ramblings.
Giles Lilley
[email protected]

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:52 am: Edit

Good to know....

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:33 am: Edit

see if you can buy the axle
gears for the salisbury as spare parts and there you go.
Or get some custom 35 spline 1.5" axles and spindles.
Just ramblings.

And good ramblings they are.

To fit 35 splines you need new hubs and you have to machine the case. However, I am not going to break maxidrive 24 spline shafts (which are only 400) and I am not going to break the 24spline Salisbury detroit either which is not a real savings from a D60 locker.

Cheers
Ron

Now who wants to put one in a disco?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 03:59 am: Edit

Only thing that bothers me there is ring gear Diameter.Because of the increased diameter its not as efficient and its will reduce a little ground clearance as well. A good Rear no doubt but not sure that I will be breaking what I have ever... Someone going to the Big fat tires would benefit though...

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:56 am: Edit

I just bought it because it was only $200 and otherwise I would have needed a custom rear driveshaft.

Ron

Terra something makes a shaved D60 housing which restores all of the ground clearance but I don't like the idea.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:02 am: Edit

I wonder how the hell they are "Shaving" it. There isnt allot of room in there under the ring gear.. You have a link?

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:14 am: Edit

I saw it in Petersons a couple months ago. I will look for an on line pic.

Ron

By Ron on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:23 am: Edit

Kyle,

Teraflex D60 scroll down to see it.

http://www.tennesseeoffroad.com/whatsnew.htm


Apparently a common DIY thing to do among jeepers is to just cut it and weld 1/2 plate on the bottom.

Ron

PS who makes D60/salisbury diff gaurds/rock rings that are not a fortune but work.

By al h on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit

Ron, http://www.fourxdoctor.com/ $64.95 I think Ho knows the shop too, maybe he can vouch on the quality. Might want to try Boyce Equipment for parts or advice too.

here's a review of one of their 60's http://www.coloradok5.com/boyce.shtml

By pk on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 10:34 am: Edit

Look now,

Let us be clear. Changing a differential is one (easy) job. Changing gear set is another, entirely different (and critically difficult) job.

The average shade tree can do the diff with ease and likely success. The gears require expert tools, knowledge and experience.

pk

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:23 pm: Edit

al, all i can say about four x doctor is that i used their ramp in my ramping days.

By quaddrive on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 04:37 am: Edit

Actually there is only 1.25" difference in ground clearance between a rover diff and a salisbury/ dana 60 diff, shaving 3/4" inch is easy and then only 3/4" less than a rover but far far stronger diff/ringear and the availability 5.4:1 r&p from 101 fc from Craddocks in UK for 27 UKP.
Then salisburys front and rear, mmm, can we say 40" tires.
The only problem is the cv's but, there is always a but, if you can source 101 fc front and rear diffs complete then you pick up some track width, salisbury diffs and wait for it 115mm diameter cv's rather than the stock 93mm, yes we can say 40" tires.
You only need to weld on bracketry and change hubs back to 5 stud.
Also the cv's are available very cheaply should you manage to break them.
Just more ramblings
Giles Lilley
[email protected]