By Perrone Ford on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Ok guys,

I have a 3" lift with no vibration. I need to correct my steering so will be going to corrected radius arms. For those who have had no vibes after a lift and corrected their steering, did you get vibrations AFTER the correction?

I'm really concerned that I will cause a vibration problem with the correction, but I can't drive for hours at highway speed with this steering uncorrected.

Thanks,

P

By Steve (Steve2) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 06:07 pm: Edit

p-

i'd tru a set of the ome caster correction bushes before going to a radius arm. just my $0.02

steve

By Perrone Ford on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Thanks,

The bushings are a little thin in my opinion and since I'm really at about 4" of lift and on my way to 5", I don't think the bushes are going to offer enough correction. They are generally designed to offset the 2" of lift from the OME lift.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 02:46 am: Edit

Perone , you should be able to answer yourself. By the way , I checked out that website you keep plugging . You got some issues in the tech section you should consult a professional to correct.
I would also be more worried about those cupped ass tires making it ride like shit . Provided you are wearing the same shoes as the 8" cinder block ramping...

Kyle
(Yep its Monday)

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 04:12 am: Edit

Kyle,

What issues in the Tech section are you referring to? HTML issues or otherwise? I wish I could answer this one on my own, but its pretty uncharted territory for me. Honestly, I am surprised I'm not having vibration issues with better than a 3" lift. I don't know of anyone else who has lifted this much witout vibration issues.

As for my tires, I am still shod with those. I spent a lot of time riding with them grossly underinflated. I had expected to have them off by now, but they'll be gone in 6-8 weeks for 33" or 35" swampers or goodyears.

Thanks,

-P

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 04:28 am: Edit

Peeron,
i have about 3" of lift on my disco and no vib's

seems like those of us with no vib's and 3" experience absolutly terrible steering. for me it is bumpsteer on the highway and brake steer at slow speeds / bumpy side roads. it must have something to do with the pinion anglke as it was sent from the factory.

you are going to get a CV/double pier cardan drive shaft up front? i can imagine your stock one lasting too long with 5" especially after you correct with new arms.

your pal
rob

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 04:41 am: Edit

Rob,

My intent is to get a corrected radius arm set from RTE. I have heard opinions that I will and will not get vibrations. If I do get vibrations, I will either get a custom CV driveshaft, or attempt to fit one from a Disco II. I've been assured that they fit fine, although I may have to change the pinion flange.

I'll know in a couple of weeks where this stands. But I MUST agree with you. The steering is terrible when you go up 3". I've been driving with mine this way for about 4 months. It's ok around town, but I am VERY uncertain about getting on the highway for a long drive. I did a 2 hour drive with it like this at about 70 mph, and don't want to do THAT again!

-P

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 04:56 am: Edit

Perrone -

I think the radius arms will rotate your pinion angle upward, therefore changeing the geometry to point it more towards the transfer case than it is now. Therefore, you will be closer to CV territory shaft than stock. My theory (guess) is that it will bring on the vibes.

Do you still have your front sway bar on?

Tom

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:13 am: Edit

I removed the sway bars a LONG time ago... And I tend to agree with your theory. But like I said, I'll have a definitive answer in a couple of weeks!

-P

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:14 am: Edit

I think the radius arms will rotate your pinion angle upward.

Rotates it down.

Ron

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:19 am: Edit

On second thought, Ron is RIGHT! Sorry for the misinformation. From now on, no more input by me on Mondays until I finish my coffee. Sorry.

Tom

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:22 am: Edit

The arms are going to rotate it down if the objective is to correct castor. And Perrone , the issues are not HTML but the info , starting with using a press to put in wheel bearing races...


Kyle

By Per Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:25 am: Edit

Just call me Per ron

Ron

By John Lee on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:27 am: Edit

"I think the radius arms will rotate your pinion angle upward, therefore changeing the geometry to point it more towards the transfer case than it is now. Therefore, you will be closer to CV territory shaft than stock. My theory (guess) is that it will bring on the vibes."

I agree with Ron. The caster-correcting arms point the front pinion downward, not upward. If the front pinion were pointed upward, even more caster would be lost.

My prediction is that the caster-correcting arms will bring on added vibration, whether or not you fit a double-carden driveshaft. If you're using the standard driveshaft, the angles on the U-joints will be just too much and you'll likely get vibes. If you're using a CV driveshaft, the angle in the forward U-joint (and the consequent speed changes in the driveshaft rotation) will not be cancelled out by anything on the driveshaft and will likely cause vibes as well. That's just a prediction. Realty sometimes doesn't fit theory.

For the loss of caster problem, I much prefer the Truetrac solution than the offset radius arms. The TT makes the vehicle steer very straight (if your front tires are balanced and your front alignment is good) and gives a very stock steering feel to lifted vehicles. You won't have to hack up your radius arms this way. Collateral benefits are that you get more traction up front and a stronger front diff to boot. Cost is only slightly more than fitting offset radius arms.

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:37 am: Edit

Kyle,

Feel free to email me privately about any corrections or issues you have on the web page. Much of that info has been either my experience from doing things, or has come from a variety of "professional" independents like Bill Davis, Bill Burke, John Robision, etc.

John Lee,

I don't know about where you shop, but here in N. Florida, the cost of adding a tru trac is double that of doing the raduis arms. The tru-trac is something I'll keep in mind though. I'll likely shim the arms just enough to to get the feel back where hopefully I won't get vibes, and then install the front tru-trac to get the rest of the steering back.

Thanks for all the great input everyone..

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:43 am: Edit

Shim the arms? You have some arm shims there in FLA ? if you are going with the Jeeper tires your steering will go to shit anyway. Well , maybe no more then riding with those cupped bastards.. WEll , for starters instead of sending people looking for a press to do thier wheel bearings. You can knock them in and out with a hammer and a race driver. of you can use the old bearing cone as a race driver. Which one of them said to use a press , I am curious..

Kyle

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:49 am: Edit

I'll likely shim the arms just enough to to get the feel back where hopefully I won't get vibes

Perrone,

I don't think you get it. Correct it how much it has to be corrected, not less. Get out the friggin protractor and figure it out. You will only be improving the situation.

Ron

John Lee,

I am not sure how I fell about the TT as a steering correcting device. I would say you could achieve the same thing by increasing your swivel ball preload to max spec (Perrone do this as well).

Cheers
Ron

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

When I fist did wheel bearings, I tried to hammer them out. I couldn't get it done. I took it to my local machine shop, and they had a proper size block to knock them out. When I spoke to John Robison about it (and my local BMW/Mercedes shop) he mentioned using a press. This seems to be common thought as I have heard of many others using a press to get bearing races in and out.

My experience may not have been typical, but at the time, many folks on the D90, RRO, RN, and those "experts" I talked to mentioned the use of a press. To be fair, many people also mentioned the hammering method too which is why I tried it first. The machine shop only charged me $20 so it's not like it was a big deal to me...

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

Not true Ron , the TT causes a litle more even drag on the wheels making the thing center better...


Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:54 am: Edit

oops , I am sorry , I mean Per ron..

Kyle

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:59 am: Edit

Not true Ron , the TT causes a litle more even drag on the wheels making the thing center better...

Ya I guess. I just don't know if saying install a TT to fix your steering is the answer unto itself. Since we really did not have an issue beforehand I can't say it made that much of a difference.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:03 am: Edit

Well , think about it. You can lift and not change a thing and wonder all over the damn place. or , you can lift and get the offset arms , then go down the road vibrating. Or , you can lift , install a true trac and get back most of the feel it had... I think its the lesser of all the evils..

Kyle

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:08 am: Edit

Kyle,

Where are you at? I mean where in the country?

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:11 am: Edit

Maryland....

Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:18 am: Edit

why not lift, install corrected arms, double pier cardan driveshaft and a TT.

i'm thinking that even though there arent vib's yet ... it's only a matter of time.

rd
having done none of the above and learned to drive like a drunk to keep the disco straight.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:19 am: Edit

Because if you do the corrected arms you are technically out of the range of a DC shaft...

Kyle

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:23 am: Edit

Which means you should really be looking at a double double shaft.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:32 am: Edit

Yes lol , but I am not really sure how that would swing... scares me.......


Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:37 am: Edit

damn,,, i did not know that.

hey John @ RTE you have a big lift + your corrected arms. whats you secret?

rd

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:39 am: Edit

4" lift...3" corrected radius arms...open diff...
stock lenght DC drive shaft...drives great caster wise(some bumpsteer of course),80 MPH following Axel to RoverFest, no vibes at any speeds....comments? Am I lucky?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:42 am: Edit

Seems like the senses are the first things to go with age.... Either that or you are very lucky....

Kyle

By Perrone Ford on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:43 am: Edit

John

As soon as you get those arms to me.. I'll give you my comments!

Hopefully I'll be as lucky as you. If not, I'll be driving to SOLAROS without my front driveshaft, or I'll drop back to a 1.5" lift and take extra springs!

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:52 am: Edit

I actually have about 3 1/2 and no correction. Same bump steer issues but otherwise good (With a TT). I still have some vibs in the back using the stock shaft that came out of Johns Disco but the front is smooth (DC shaft)... All in all I think its a crap shoot. Thnk about all those damn joints we are spinning all the time. Its a feakin nightmare...

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 06:55 am: Edit

Its not luck really...we can theorize it to death I guess on cause and effect, but as we all know tolerances of error do apply and work. I have a 4 deg error in my drive line/pinion and as I have posted several weeks earlier I dont expect 100,000 miles from my u joint brgs but 2 years on them and solid as ever. Drive shaft lenght had increased 1/2" with a 4 " lift but I am sure thats not critical as it has shown nothing different. We run a std lenght DC shaft on a 5" lifted truck with no problem. I am sure these have tolerable errors in lenghts built in. Every one doesnt use TT's so caster needs to be addressed for those who dont. I am not sure how TT drag masks caster angle but you who have tried it know more than me about that. So overall theory of cause and effect has room for error I believe and have experienced that myself. There are also 3" lifts out there w/corrected radius arms with stock u-joints.....Its a Rover thing.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 07:02 am: Edit

The TT dosnt make castor John , you know that. And castor is just a fancy word for what? "Toe" exists to make your truck track right and not "Hunt" all over the road , castor is the thing that makes this effective or not. The TT is simply simulating what "toe" does , just doing it in a different way...

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 07:11 am: Edit

Like I said I havent experienced the TT feel in the steering wheel..so I am dumb as to that imitation toe feel in the steering wheel...I guess its a transfering from side to side drag thing going on. It doesnt show up(the lack of toe) in turning or going thru that 18 wheeler slip stream? Like I said, I've never steered a TT.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 07:17 am: Edit

Well it doesnt work miracles thats for damn sure and dont let anyone tell ya it does , atleast on anything over 2". As I said before , I just think its the lesser of the evils.. Mine only gets freaky when I take away the affects of the TT. IE , transitioning from decell to accell. Its a little squirmy then but I will run it up to 100 without being worried.. I still feel that modifying the flanges on the ball portion of the front end is ultimately the way to go. That should be filled and redrilled to correct caster leaving the right pinion angle in tact..

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

On that we agree, I would offer correcting the ball flanges but thats too big a hassel on cores or people providing their own, but thats the ultimate cure. Its not hard to do, but people would also have to provide accurate dimensions and that in itself could create problems when their stuff doesnt work as expected.

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:14 am: Edit

I have the RT link, CV, TT combo w/out vibes in the front. Guess I am lucky.

Anyway, I didn't really notice any difference from a tracking perspective with the front TT. Didn't really get any more or less straight tracking or bump steer. Guess I am unlucky there...

Tom

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:27 am: Edit

Its a Rover thang....no set standards, theory be damned...forge ahead...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:40 am: Edit

Yes John , I am going to correct mine that way in the future and I think you would have to be very conservative in doing it. Because of the variances we see all the time it could be a royal pain in the ass for everyone involved.


Kyle

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:49 am: Edit

does anyone know how much correction rotating it one bolt hole would give.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:54 am: Edit

Too much.....


Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:54 am: Edit

Instead of welding the holes, think of slotting or elongating the holes in the right direction to the correct point angulary, then drill and ream from the outside radial dia. a 3/16" hole at the right point to create the new hole/position. Pressing in a hardened dowel pin to re-create the neat fit needed with the bolt against the dowel pin for positioning. It all requires an indexing vise to be accurate and consistant. Welding may warp bearing dia's or crystalize metal...Either way,its a one shot fix, forge ahead..

By al hang on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 08:59 am: Edit

are you sure you guys are rednecks??? if i checked your mullets would i find a slide rule?

hehe,

-al

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:01 am: Edit

Hmmm , I am thinking more along the lines of just making up a drill guide that uses one of the old holes left intact to drill the new ones. once you have the guide portion figured you can actually do a few for different amounts of castor. Also , you can also get away with having just 4 or so of the holes welded back up. That along with the tigtness of the remaining will keep it from spinning...

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:14 am: Edit

Sounds a s good as any....the 4 link will definately need the fix to set the 4 link up right with the normal higher lifts used w/4 links. With the casting I would worry about the metal hardening from welding, but choose the right rod I guess. I dont know about "multible choices" as a 4/5 deg fix is only about 1/8" on the bolt circle you are working with in relation to the ball itself.

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:22 am: Edit

are you sure you guys are rednecks???

Thats spelled ...RNX...my slide rule says so...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:27 am: Edit

Yeah John , it aint much movement but its gonna have to move...Hmm
Now that I think of it , you could just slot the holes and mill small sections of exact dimms to fill that back space.. that I like....That would get it exact and take the heat factor away all together...

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:31 am: Edit

"mill small sections of exact dimms to fill that back space".

Thats my thought with the radialy inserted dowel pins...kinda hard to hold and mill that small shit.. Ron,
1 hole would give you a 60 deg fix...helloooo...

By Ron on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:33 am: Edit

1 hole would give you a 60 deg fix...helloooo...

Ya I figured that out after I said it. Somehow I was thinking there were 12 bolts but even that would be too much.

30in of lift and it would be perfect though

Ron

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:35 am: Edit

"30in of lift and it would be perfect though"

32.6 says my slide rule...

By kyle on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:36 am: Edit

Shit man , you dont need the ends of your fingers anyway , itll grow back....

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:41 am: Edit

My little finger hasnt....and the rest are too knarly to hold the small shit anymore. My fixes are tuned to my knarleys and eyesight...
Of course if you get the one end of the slots positioned right for the new caster angle you can lay a spot of braze in the backside of the hole and file to fit the bolt( how I use to do it before I got a slide rule).

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:53 am: Edit

Ahhh that ancient art of brazing .. man , My mind was all set and you had to intrduce this different method.. Damn , I love being closed minded to avoid these brain twists....
I am liking the file thing though , that does happen to by my favorite tool...
I cant think offhand if there is enough meat there to drill all holes out 1/2" bigger in dia and then making a cam shaped plug to fill the air therefore pushing the bolt to the correct end of the hole....

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:08 am: Edit

Plenty of meat, you just have to drill the correct oversize hole so the leading edge is correct caster angle wise(slide rule shit). The making of a cam shaped plug is challenging, 6 of them even, the brazing is quick and will hold if you get the metal to a good "tinning" temp, and will hold as well as anything(use to braze and file new gear teeth in broken gears)and you get to use a file as well.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:09 am: Edit

Same thing you are talking about John but making the peices a little bigger and easing the sloting deal somewhat..

Kyle

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:12 am: Edit

Now if you drill oversize, then make blank slugs to fit....then in the slugs drill eccentric holes offset the right amt and then press in the slugs in the right position(like offset rad arm bushings)you also have a fix.

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:16 am: Edit

But I keep forgetting....you are "stock" and dont need this king of stuff...LOL...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:21 am: Edit

Yes
Exactly , just theorizing,,,,you know , if that day ever came....

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:23 am: Edit

After all , we are just talking about a little more stock , in this case its round stock...

Kyle

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:56 am: Edit

Here's an idea for a bolt-on caster correction kit along the lines of what you guys have been talking about.

1. Machined spacers to go between the axle tube and swivels (like wheel spacers), hardware
2. Extended HD front axleshafts
3. Matching rear wheel spacers
4. Extended drag link & tie rod (these may not even be needed)

As a bonus you get heavy duty axles and a bit more track width.

just a thought. don't flame me

Alex

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:00 am: Edit

And the projected price tag that makes it more apealing then a .02 cent brazing rod? thats gonna hurt.....

Kyle

By Alex Schubow (Alex) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:01 am: Edit

gotta pay to play, right? And from a marketing standpoint, its a lot easier to sell stuff that doesn't have to be welded. Most of us here don't have a welder in the garage, not to mention the skills to use it and trust your life to the bead.

Besides, I'm sure John could find a way to make it affordable

But seriously - if you add the cost of the following bought seperately:

HD draglink & tie rod
HD front axles
wheel spacers or new offset wheels

it don't seem so bad.

The only major downsides that *I* can see are your front axles and steering linkage no longer interchange with other rovers. OTOH, who the hell is changing front axles on the trail? No fun.

Anyway, like I said, just a thought.

Alex

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:18 am: Edit

hmmm, seems like the braze would be too soft and would deform and erode out.. maybe i am too used to working with carbide. i can't relate anymore

i like the idea though... makes much sence to just rotate that mammer-jammer and screw it back on.

rd

By John on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:53 am: Edit

"seems like the braze would be too soft and would deform and erode out".. Not if nothing is moving, and braze is pretty tough. Of course a carbide head would think different.......

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

ok , hows this . You take some round stock the size of the hole that we are going to determine. You gun bore it offset to one edge the size of the bolts as needed. Then you cut some slices off for slugs... Damn , you should be halfway done...

Kyle