By Ron on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 11:25 am: Edit

96 disco:

Symptoms: "soft" pedal that gets very marginally better on second pump

stops but not very well.

Ron

Please don't say abs pump

By Ron on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 11:27 am: Edit

Checked obvious (bleed) and no idiot lights on.

Ron

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 02:35 am: Edit

Ron
Mine is has similar right now, though doesn't sound quite as bad as yours. I changed fluid - actually ran about 36 ounces of new fluid all the way through to be sure and switched to braided teflon lines - still kindy mushy and low to the floor.

I know this is no help, but I'm stumped also - I too hope it's not ABS pump (maybe we can get a deal on 2 ) Hopefully Trevor will be checking out a couple things for me when he gets back.

Sorry - no help here, but at least we can commiserate (sp?)

Bill

By Perrone Ford on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 04:33 am: Edit

If your braking system is anything like the one on a RR classic, the ABS system has nothing to do with a mushy pedal on normal braking. How did you bleed? Usually pressure bleeding gives the firmest pedal.

I understand that as the rubber seals go at the maaster cylinder, the brakes get more spongy. Also the pads add or detract a lot from feel. The "passport to service" mentions replacing the entire rubber seals and hoses every 3-5 years or something as preventative maintenance. Sounds like a good idea to me.


-P

By Ron on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 04:48 am: Edit

Bill,



P,

I don't just want to rebuild everything as it is $$$ for the kits and a pain in the a** and it might not be the issue. If the abs pump is toast I think it is supposed to give the symptoms I have , do you know otherwise?

Ron

By Perrone Ford on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:26 am: Edit

Don't know otherwise for sure,

But usually the accumulator goes first, causes the ABS pump to cylcle longer and longer, and finally cycle on all the time. Remember the ABS pump is ONLY cycling to pressurize the accumulator.

Does this sound like what happened to you?

-P

By Ron on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:33 am: Edit

Does this sound like what happened to you?

I dunno. I don't drive it I just am exspected to fix it. Never noticed the ABS pump to be honest. Bill let me know what Trevor thinks.

Ron

By Bill Bettridge (Billb) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:48 am: Edit

Different system in Disco - no accumulator as it is in the RR - the pump can cause problems in the normal braking circuit (I'm told)

By Perrone Ford on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

Thanks for the correction Bill. I wonder if anyone has the circuit diagram of the Disco braking system. I published the RR one on the Spanish Trail site a while back. A disco one might be a good addition to the Discoweb.

-P

By Ron on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 05:53 am: Edit

I hate brakes! Next to OBD II they are my least favorite. If I can't figure it out I am retrofitting 97 D90 style brake to the disco.

Ron

By Jose A Cabrera (Jcabrera) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 06:47 am: Edit

Ron, I am still having problems on my 96 Disco. Something that fixed it temporarily was to disconnect the front (left and right) ABS sensor and reconnect them. I did that and it solved the problem. Then I went wheeling and the problem came back. Someone suggested checking the wiring leading to the sensors. Apparently, they had it replaced and no problem since. I will have mine check next week. Good Luck!

By Ron on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 06:59 am: Edit

Thanks!

I will try anything now. How about pulling the ABS fuse? Good idea? y/n?

Ron

By Scott H on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 07:24 am: Edit

My ABS has been a huge pain in the ass on my 95 Disco...it goes of and on and off and on, I have replaced sensors twice. Finally I disconnected it about 2 weeks ago. (I pulled the fuse in the engine compartment). I kinda would like to keep it working, but this thing has been the bane of my rover ownership, if I don't have ABS, so be it. I plan on leaving this off, all it does is give me regular brakes....no biggie

By Steve (Steve2) on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 07:36 am: Edit

from my experience with cars over the years (7 years as a service writer with european high group) - a soft pedal that gets better with second application sound like a master cylinder to me. if you do alot of wheeling - i'd renew brake fluid annually or especially after a good fording. brake fluid by it's nature - draws moisture into itself causing problems with the rubber. if there is a rebuild kit for the master that might be your first step - but i'd check with a knowledgable garage first to be sure.

most master cylinders are dual chambered with an intial pressure and secondary. perhaps the seals to the primary are weak and the secondary come into play on second applicaiton - makes sense to me.

but first renew and bleed fluid - if still there then i'd check the master - there should be a pressure tool to check this.

best of luck
steve

By Joe Casey on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:05 am: Edit

Ron,

what about the calipers. is one pad more worn than the other? it sounds like a sticking caliper. to check the master cylinder, start the truck and depress the brake pedal(hard, with 2 feet) for sixty seconds. if the pedal goes completly to the floor its a master. my 97 has the same issues and i noticed when i changed the brakes a month back the passenger rear caliper was wearing one side more than the other.

JC

By Wanna know on Thursday, August 30, 2001 - 09:06 am: Edit

Some one posted that they have removed the fuse for the ABS. Can someone tell me the pros & cons when doing removing the ABS fuse (please, no ABS is obviously a con)

By ROVERFUN on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 02:21 pm: Edit

CHECK THE WHEEL BEARINGS TO SEE IF THEY ARE LOOSE , IF THEY ARE IT WILL PUSH PISTON BACK IN ON TURNS OR ON LONG HIGHWAY DRIVES.

FIRST PEDAL APP IS SOFT SECOND IS HARD.

JUST A QUICK CHECK , THERE ARE OTHER REASONS BUT INVOLVE MORE DIAG. BESIDES BLEEDING.

ROVERFUN( ROVERFUN 4 [email protected])

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Wanna Know,

ABS has good and bad points depending on who's driving!

ABS is designed so that if you slam on the brakes, it won't lock up, thus allowing you to continue to steer. It is designed for the driver w/o finesse. It will quite often increase your stopping distance, especially in the wet or in gravel.

Good driving techniques should prevail. Back when I learned to drive, you were taught to pump the brakes yourself, and not to slam them. Actually worked pretty good...

By pulling the ABS fuse, yes, you disable the ABS system, and end up with the 'older' style of brakes, that you can lock up if you're not careful.

When off-road, or on wet roads, or snow, or gravel, you'll have a much better system w/o the ABS. On dry pavement, the ABS would help some, but good driving can match it. Only on ice does ABS REALLY help, and with practice you can do okay w/ non-ABS brakes on ice, too.

IMHO, YMMV, yada yada yada, etc.....


-L

By Paul Miller (Millerp) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:12 am: Edit

Leslie

I persoannly feel your ABS advice is ill-informed or inexperienced. ABS has saved me from two bad accidents in the past - both on wet roads. In the wet, ABS drastically REDUCES your stopping distance and most importantly still allows you to steer around an obstacle. I take your point about extremes of weather/off-road and agree that proper observation and anticipation is key, but for the wet it is a must.

Paul

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 03:09 am: Edit

Paul,

Twice on wet roads I've had my ABS let me roll out into the middle of an intersection whereas any non-ABS car wouldn't have. Only luck kept it from being an ugly incident each time. Personal butt-cheek clinching experience speaking here.

I'm not suggesting that someone should disable their ABS system - that's for each person to decide on their own - I'm merely pointing out the reasons why someone may choose to do such.

I myself have not dissabled my ABS, but I have had to adjust my driving to accomodate the ABS, by braking far ahead of where I would have otherwise. Sometimes it earns me a ribbing from any buddy who happens to be riding with me, but it's the only way to safely keep the ABS from letting me get into a dangerous situation.

Read your manual (pp.81-82 of the owner's manual)... and the experiences of others here, too. "...braking distances with ABS may be greater than those achievable with a non-ABS system..." right from the manual.

The only purpose of ABS is to keep the wheels from locking, so you can continue to steer. Period. That's it. It does not offer shorter braking distances, only the same at best, and longer at worst.


Regards,

-Leslie

By Larry Harrell (Harrellee) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 03:16 am: Edit

Leslie is right Paul. The ABS is defintely not for off-road and is barely good for on road use. I know of alot of people that have pulled the fuse for the ABS and just forgot about it. Does not change anything except better breaking on and off road and you have an anoying ABS light on for the rest of your life. So you decide!!

Larry
95 Disco
www.roverclubhouse.com

By Paul Miller (Millerp) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 08:52 am: Edit

Guess I have to stand corrected!! So are you suggesting the all LR ABS fitted to Discos is rubbish, or ABS in general? Leslie, roughly how fast were you going when you started braking for the intersections? I accept all your evidence, but don't understand (from the physics/momentum side) how you managed to skid so far with the ABS firing compared to a four-wheel lock-up skid. Or are you saying that with the ABS disabled you can put more foot pressure on the pedal before the lock-up than you can before the ABS starts firing. If this is the case, then surely the ABS system is not set up right?

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 10:47 am: Edit

Paul,

All the ABS does is modulate the brake pressure to keep it from locking.... ie it 'very quickly' releases the brakes and then puts them on again...

I wasn't going fast at all, they were in-town intersections, so I was under 25mph.

Skidding would actually stop faster, you just can't steer, since the wheels aren't rolling.

It's not a LR thing, it's the nature of ABS.

Does that help?

-L

By Mike Beiergrohslein (400mcs) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I'm sure this ha already been posted but how do you dismantle the ABS again??

By Paul Miller (Millerp) on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Leslie

It helps a little. For sure ABS controls the brake pressure, but it takes its input from the speed sensors on EACH wheel. Only if a wheel is deemed to be slowing too quickly does it fire on THAT wheel's circuit only. Am I still missing something?

Paul

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 03:04 am: Edit

Driving straight and braking, the ABS would have been acting upon both of the front brakes at slow speeds... the back maybe too, but they don't have a tendency to contribute as much to stopping you as the front at those lower speeds.

If the wheel had been allowed to "slow too quickly" - whether or not it was a total lock-up at that low speed wouldn't have mattered - the vehicle would have been sitting still well before I reached the stop-sign. Since the ABS 'intentionally' prevented the brakes from holding tight, the vehicle continued to roll until I was half-way into the intersection the second time it happened. The first time, I was going a bit faster, and actually was entirely into the intersection, so I just scooted on across... I'm sure the other fellow who missed me was thinking "Damn 'Range Rover' drivers think they own the place since they drive those $100,000 vehicles! Idiots!"

Having it fire on one wheel can be bad, too...
If, let's say, you're pulling off onto the shoulder of the road, and the sensor on that side fires off as you reach the gravels, but the sensor that is on the wheel that is still on the road doesn't, maintaining the same braking rate... you'll find yourself suddenly swerving back into the traffic lane. NOT good. I've again had to adjust my driving style to accomodate the ABS doing what it's designed to do.

-L

By Daniel on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 03:59 am: Edit

Mike,
This is a summary of what I've learned about what you are asking. Note that it's taken from answers to questions I've asked on this BBS and I have not disabled my ABS yet, as I seem to have corrected the problem I was having (my fingers are still crossed that it will stay "fixed").

There are a couple ways to disable the ABS.
1 The simplest is to remove the fuse, but this will cause
the engine light to come on in newer Discos
(96 and up I think)
2 Disconnect the module under the hood. It's a
square black connector on the passenger side in
front of the washer fluid tank. This is
supposed to prevent the check engine light.
In either case you will want to remove the light from the ABS indicator so it doesn't irritate the pi$$ out of you. It's should be easy to do by removing the two screws holding the binnacle in place. This should help and I'm sure someone will point out anything I forgot/mis-stated.

By Gregg Warnken (Gregg) on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit

I agree with Leslie. All ABS is for is to keep the yahoos on the road who don't know to manipulate their brakes from locking and skidding. If you know how to modulate your brakes effectively, you can ALWAYS stop faster than with ABS. It is more of a hindrance than a help to me. Yes, in the rain, with a big, heavy vehicle and a soccer mom behind the wheel, yes ABS is a good idea. My Audi actually has a factory switch on the dash to disable the ABS. Obviously some German engineer thought it would be a good idea to let the driver choose.

My $.02

G

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 12:35 pm: Edit

why not wire in your own ABS module interrupt switch? Switch it off, and the ABS light comes on, reminding you that it's off. Switch it back on, and no more light...I'm sure I'll get around to it with all my extra free time I have (NOT!)