By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 01:15 pm: Edit

If they could be magically installed, and irrespective of any cost:

A. You can have any SINGLE locking diff (front, back, center) which one would make the best choice, and why?

B. You can have any TWO locking diffs (front, back, center) which combination would make the best choice, and why?

This is a serious question; please also state your reasons and whether or not you are including ETC in your argument.

Thanks for your insight,
Dean

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Me? I would exclude ETC all together and go detroit rear and True trac front. The ARB front is a nice option but a little unreliable for me. If you can live with it being unreliable the Detroit/ARB combo is pretty damn decent. The true trac will also change the way your truck handles a little so its not without its down sides. I disregard that like most ARB owners disregard its unreliability. The only thing is,,,,,the true trac wont quit on me...that ARB will...
Center diff locked ofcourse

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Me? I would exclude ETC all together and go detroit rear and True trac front. The ARB front is a nice option but a little unreliable for me. If you can live with it being unreliable the Detroit/ARB combo is pretty damn decent. The true trac will also change the way your truck handles a little so its not without its down sides. I disregard that like most ARB owners disregard its unreliability. The only thing is,,,,,the true trac wont quit on me...that ARB will...
Center diff locked ofcourse

Kyle

By Perrone Ford on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit

A. Rear Detroit. Almost unbreakable, simple, reasonably transparent.

B. Maxi-Drives front and rear. Have all the benefits of the ARB, with none of the drawbacks. They are vacuum operated so don't rely in an air compressor, anything stronger than a interconnected pixie straws can provide a field fix in the lines, locker is damn near bulletproof (same system is used on Unimogs). So no electrics, and no compressor.

I would not fool with ETC as its practically useless. It doesn't start working until you are slipping, and then you must keep providing more gas to combat the brakes being applied. Not only that, but it exacerbates brake wear, rotor wear, and makes it impossible to maintain momentum un deep sand and snow.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

-P

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

You have tried these maxi drives Perrone ? Vacume is the exact opposite of copressed air so the exact same problem exists. Just cause its in a mog dont mean its the shit... Air has a habit of escaping , thats its nature... If they run off vacum there still has to be a pump , its just doing the opposite thing.


Kyle

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:34 pm: Edit

The Vacuum engagement is total bullshit! There are many Jeeps with Vacuum locked frt axles and when the driver steps on the Go pedal all the way the frt diff disengages. Wide open throttle = 0 vacuum. The sudden loss of traction causes the driver to let off the pedal and the loc tries to re engage at 3-4000 rpms and Wham Blam the frt axle is broken.

I have a ARB with 36" tires hooked to it and I drive the piss out of it. NO problems no disappointments.

By marty amedeo (Marty) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:40 pm: Edit

I like ARB's both front and rear. Nothing like having the option to run open diffs on those slippery side slopes. I orignally had a Detroit in my truck and after 5 months had it replaced with an ARB and had one installed in the front and never regreted it. Kyle, you mention that the ARB's are unreliable, I've had mine installed over two years now and they still do the job when I need them.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:41 pm: Edit

LOL , dont get me started on the jeep system,,,lol. Robert , I have actually had a guy say that the ARB has no problems as he was working on it trying to get them working again,,,lol I just shake my head when I hear it...


Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Marty,,,lol,,,read that last post.. The people that have em never want to admit that they break. They carry spare shit with them and still refuse to say they have any problems. Man I am serious , I was talking to a guy on a trail with an ARB failure and he was telling me while he was turning wrenches that they are no problem,,lol As for side slopes ? Give me a break. You saying that on a slippery side slope your trucks ass wont walk down it at all with the ARB ? Thats a crock of shit there. Its slick!! You will still walk and you will have to adjust.. I get sick to death of that statement.. Its the ARB line.. I guess the shit I have run just has never had any side slopes. The other night I was up on a 30-35 degree muddy slope with trees on the down side. I did get in a bind pulling on another disco to get them up it and shit did get a little freaky. After the disco was unhooked from my ass I was able to move around up there with little problem of sliding sideways. You are gonna slide no matter what. Its called gravity boys , we all have to fight it...I will admit that the ARB when its unlocked may slip a little less but you still have to drive the damn truck and keep it under control..I acknowledge the things that are nice about the ARB , but lets all agree that they cant be counted on..

Kyle

By marty amedeo (Marty) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Kyle What I'm saying is that on a slippery side slope, if I don't need to be locked up and I have the option to run open, the risk of ass end walking down the slope is less. With the rear locked in the same situation you will slide down if you loose traction, ARB or Detroit.

As you said, the key is to keep the truck moving and under control, but shit does happen.

I do admit that the compressor and air lines are a weak link in the system. Just this weekend had the fuse blow on the compressor while using it to air up. Had this happened on the trail when I needed my lockers, I would have had a problem. As far as the air lines go, you just have to tuck them up as far a possible and check them every once in a while.

I know with a Detroit you don't have these issues, just drive and go, but it's a trade-off that I accept and live with.

Marty

By Perrone Ford on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 04:49 pm: Edit

A few notes on the vacuum system.

1. Unlike an air compressor system, the vacuum system only needs a few psi, like the cruise control, In fact, that's where I would "T" off the fitting.

2. The jeep application is COMPLETELY different than ours. The vacuum is related to manifold pressure and that is COMPLETELY different on fuel injection and carbureted engines. In fact, even on the carbureted Unimog, their are no vacuum issues. I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER heard a Unimog owner coplain that their vacuum lockers ever need any servicing and these are 40+ year old trucks. I have complete confidence in the system.

And Kyle, there is no pump. Take some time and read up on the system. I have been reading up on the ARB, Detroit, Maxi, Kam, and spools for the last year or so, and I'm probably going to run a detroit rear and a Maxi front. You are correct that air has a way of escaping, but at 10-20psi you could use a bicycle innertube with duct tape to do a trail fix. But again, I have spoken to over 150 unimog owners over the past 3 years and have not heard of a single failure. That's good enough for me.

-P

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 05:09 pm: Edit

"vacuum system only needs a few psi"

Shaking head LOL!

Pressure is expressed in PSI ,Vacuum is mesured inches of mercury or inches on h20

By Joe Casey on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 05:27 pm: Edit

i also love it when peeps put lumpy cams in cars/trucks and they don't have any brakes due to the little or no vacuum due to the overlap that the cam has. you know i was just thinking about it, you might be able to operate a vacuum lock with a pump if used right. just a thought.

JC

By hehe on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 06:07 pm: Edit

So, in other words... the vacuum thing sucks, and the arb thing blows?

By Perrone Ford on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Yes, Robert

You are of course right about correct measuring. But given that I wanted a direct comparison to the ARB, I felt that expressing the force necessary in PSI was good enough though technically incorrect. I probably should have just said the equivalent pressure of only a few psi.

-P

By Pointless on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 02:51 am: Edit

Perronnee,WHAT is your ACTUAL hands on EXPERIENCE with ANYTHING you comment on. Book reading and talking to other people SEEMS to make you the Moses of ALL knowledge.I am ASSUMING you have spent the money and the time to KNOW what you speak of, INCLUDING 350 engine building for Rovers...and do you have SHAKEY hands or a CAPS KEY that has a mind of its own? Again looking for your POINT...can you answer the question on your ACTUAL experience or are you just PHONY PERRONEEY...

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 02:55 am: Edit

GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS!

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP!

I appreciate all the views here, but I am asking for a THEORETICAL view of what is best here. NO MENTION of Detroit, ARB, MAXI, TRUE TRAC please.

My first question was: IF YOU COULD HAVE ONLY ONE LOCKER, would the center one be better (alone) than a back (alone) or a front (alone). WHICH would give you the better traction?

Same for the second question. ANY TWO locks (un-named please) which two should you get.

The penalty for mentioning even one more brand is to buy me all the beer I can drink in one evening. And repeat violations just make me more happy!

Thanks,
Dean

Kyle - shhhhhh. No more brands, remember! Just theory, which I know you are very knowledgeable.

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 03:19 am: Edit

When climbing a hill,rock ect, the time you need the most traction. The rear diff is doing the most work. That's is the place to put a locked diff. L.S. do not even come it play and are in a different ball park when it comes to real traction.

By Perrone Ford on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 04:39 am: Edit

Pointless,

While I won't be goaded into another argument on what I know and what I don't I am quite happy to say that I have assisted on rebuilds of Chevy 350 engines with a gentleman named Rich Curley who did it for a living for US Customs in Miami.

I have done all modifications to my vehicle myself including electrical, suspension, waterproofing, axles, CVs, hubs, driveshafts. I have not opened my Rover engine yet as I have not had the need. I have not installed a locker because as yet I have not changed to 24 spline axles. But, I've been inside every other system in my truck.

I have noticed that both here and on the RR list, you seem to have complete disdain for people who read things to learn, instead relying solely on hands-on experience. I don't know if the problem is that you can't read, or you can't understand things you read, but billions of people have learned things they didn't know from reading. None of us would know crap if we had to learn EVERYTHING by doing it ourselves. All of us walk on the backs of others accomplishments. And maybe, when I give advice to others on things I have not done hands on, its because I am offering it from the work done by 10 other people that I know. That's the benefit of the list.

But the one recurring theme in all of this bashing and flaming you seem to enjoy is that you aren't big enough to use your name. So until you do, the name you have chosen fits you well "pointless".

-P

By ZPukajlo on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 04:48 am: Edit

Since I have a D1 I am not entering ETC into my answers. If I could only have one locker which one would it be? I love my CDL, but I would go with a locker in the rear. I climb too many mountains out here in CO. Some are pretty steep. The extra traction and push that it would give would make a tremendous difference.
Any two lockers. An easy one for me. Rear locker with the CDL. Now I have the back pushing while both axles are turning at the same speed. PLus, the torque is now split up evenly. Need I say anymore.

Zane

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 05:21 am: Edit

Perrone, yes you can learn a lot reading books, manuals, etc. However, going around stating "facts" when they are actually opinions you have either read, emails you have seen, or conversations you have overheard without actually experiencing any of it yourself does not count.

A Detroit is not "unbreakable" if you've never owned and operated one. A Unimog vacuum system is not infailable if it't only based on 2nd hand info. Maxi-Drives don't have "all the advantages" if you've never had to live with one in your truck.

In an earlier post, you closed with, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it!" Unfortunately Perrone, it is just a story. You haven't experienced any of it.

It's fine to have opinions and it's OK to base decisions on the experience of others, but you consistantly try to stand on a soapbox you haven't earned.

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 05:39 am: Edit

Perrone after reading your posts here and on Rovers North board, is there some prize for making the most posts on every LR board on the net?

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 06:08 am: Edit

By Perrone Ford on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 06:32 am: Edit

Thanks guys, you're right. From this point on, when commenting on the discoweb, I'll be sure to add a disclaimer that I have no real experience with anything and these are all just my opinions or that I am quoting what I have heard from others.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 06:35 am: Edit

Damn , I am liking this Robert more and more. Its actually not perrones story its someone elses he is always telling. Perrone , people can look at your rangie and see that there is nothing there. You surely have to be cautious when posting cause people are gonna call you on it. Dont get all uptight about it. Thats life. The fact is you have nothing to back up anything you say. Your freaking tires are even cupped to shit on the damn thing and you are telling people it rides smooth. I know god damn good and well it aint riding smooth with those cups and so does anyone else that knows what they are looking at. So where does that leave you credibility wise? Think about it man... You following me?

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 06:44 am: Edit

And dont give me that pouty bullshit either. I have seen you do that on too many other boards and lists. You spew a bunch of theory and when people call you on it you do a pouty post..


Kyle

By Perrone Ford on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 06:57 am: Edit

Kyle,

In your style, I am going to ask you if you have ever RIDDEN in my truck? Since you haven't you have no idea how it rides or feels. You have NO DIRECT EXPERIENCE with my truck. And I'm glad you and Robert are cozying up. And just because I've made most of my truck mods internally, doesn't meant there is nothing there. Although certainly I don't have the mods you and others here do. Gimme a year or two and then lets see how it stands ok?

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 07:02 am: Edit

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 07:06 am: Edit

Perrone , that was a dumb ass statement. Cupped tires vibrate. You wont even get a decent set of tires on the thing and you want others to listen to all this crap...But I suppose you have the key to running square blocks for tires and having them not vibrate...350 chevys were what the guys talked about when I was in high school. After high school we all found out what a hunk of shit it is.. It cant take any abuse , but you dont know that yet do you ?

Kyle

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 07:07 am: Edit

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 07:08 am: Edit

Perone , man , guys like you just wont ever get it...lol Keep up the good work!! Get some hole saws and go to work on the interior of that rangie...

Kyle

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 07:50 am: Edit

Ho, I had no idea you looked good in a skirt. ;-)

Nice pom poms!

Jeff

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 08:13 am: Edit

By Mike B. on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Hmmm. Sounds to me like we have a knowledge vs experience debate going on here. I don't think that anybody ever really wins these things.

However, it is very comforting to know that there are people out there that monitor the posts on this board to make sure they are correct and accurate.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Man,

Nothing but 'shit you' and 'dumb ass' and 'freakin this and that', and now we even have cheerleaders! (Ho, can you get a larger image?)

At least there were a few useful answers in there. Thanks to you know who.

Kyle - I enjoy your bantering loads, honestly, but lets give these penises a break and leave them to themselves.

All I was asking was which theoretical diff lock combos would be best (no brand names). Now I am owed at least 150 pints of beer.

Since this is too much beer for one night (some may say even for two) I would prefer theory from now on.

Gracias, and looking forward to my beers,
Dean

By Mike B. on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 02:10 pm: Edit

One more thought:

I think that computer jocks are the worst when it comes to the 'Knowledge versus Experience' debate. (By the way, I am a computer jock). I guess that it stems from the fact that there are thousands of programs and litterally billions (yes, billions) of different configuration options on the current operating systems (Windows 2000, Linux, etc.). There is no way to humanly try all of the different configuration options on an operating system. So, we have to leverage off the knowledge of others in order to do our jobs. In fact, knowledge is often times valued much higher over experience in the technical industry. That is why it is not uncommon for an inexperienced rookie who knows the latest technology to make twice or three times more than someone who has experience in a slightly older technology.

For me, this principle of valuing knowledge over experience definately tends to bleed into other aspects of my life. So, if I ever come off sounding like a pompous (I misss spell check!) ass-hole, please cut me some slack. Its a work-related injury!

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Mike , the funny thing here is everyone is free to post as they like. Well , they post and get shot down and imediatly its a big deal. I hate to tell everyone but getting shot down on some things is just how it is. Get over it. DOnt start posting some pouty shit. The way I look at is this "If you step off the curb into traffic , dont whine about getting hit by a bus". You dig?

Kyle

By Milan on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Or thrown out Kyle's window...hehe

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Dean --

An answer to your question:

1. Only one diff allowed: The center. This guarantees that you will at minimum always have two wheels churning. If you only locked one end w/out the center you could still end up w/only one wheel spinning.

2. Two diffs: Center and rear. Guarantees minimum of three wheels going at any time. Rear is more valuable than the front. If you locked up only the ends, you could end up with front or rear wheel drive only - 2 wheels.

I left out ETC because I really don't know what you want to compare ETC to. You asked about locking diffs, and I stated what I thought about that. ETC is not a locking diff. Do you want to know thoughts about ETC + lockers vs CDL + lockers? Can ETC even be used with lockers???

Tom

By Scott OZ on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 05:11 pm: Edit

I've got Detroits front and rear (10 Spline). Great don't have to worry about lines being snagged,leaks and the like.

Driving on the road doing slow, tight turns vehicle tends to "shudder" but is stoped by puting the clutch in.

Me, like the detroit's you don't have to think to turn them on. Granted they dont have the full lock on the front.

By Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) on Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Mike,

It's not an issue of knoweldge versus experience. It's an issue that the emperor has no cloths.

Oh, and given a choice of difs, I'll go with Tom's choices.

If only 1, I want a center dif lock (essentially traditional 4wd). If allowed 2, I want a center and rear dif lock.

I've never played with ETC so I don't have a clue about it.

PS- I miss the spell check!!!

By Ali on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 02:43 am: Edit

Er, back to the discussions at hand. Hey Discosaurus, what's your opinion about having a front locker along with the rear Detroit after Saturday? I know you were wishing you had one up front so less go juice would be needed on the rock climb.

The Jeeps have the OX Locker, basically a mechanically engaged locker. This is not a bad system since it relies on a heavy duty cable not air or vacuum. I have no real experience with this but ask a Jeep guy. You will have to route a rather thick cable through the floorboard/firewall though.

As for me, I'm very happy with the ARB setup front & rear. Pixie sticks and all.

My $.02 worth.

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 04:19 am: Edit

Thanks Tom and others,
Kinda obvious after its explained.
Now, where's my beer?

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 04:06 am: Edit

I'd like to make a comment on knowledge vs. experience. I used to believe that by just reading as much as I could on a topic would give me the best solution, but as I found out, that usually isn't the best way to approach an issue.

For example, After reading a ton of info on winches I decided to buy a Milemarker hydraulic winch. The problem is that I didn't talk to anyone that had experience using it on the Disco. I found out after installing the winch that the ps pump is too weak, and as a result it is underpowered and slower than it is rated. Now I have to spend probably another $500 to get it to perform as expected.

The same logic can be applied to the locker discussion. Just because some locker works great for the Mog doesn't mean that there won't be some unforseen problem using it on the Disco. I'd rather take the advice of someone that has installed an upgrade on the Disco and has some knowledge of how it performs in the real world. Things that work well in theory don't always work well in practice.

By Ron on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 04:18 am: Edit

Tom has got it.

Center then rear then front. Sure there are some situations where that might not make the most sense but 99% and in your case it is the way to go.

Ron

PS I like TTs. Wish they made one for the salisbury, I was thinking about a maxi pad locker for it but I guess I will just get a DL (gearless BTW)

By curious on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 03:20 pm: Edit

OK maybe this is a new topic but ,after checkung out GBR's site and reading what everyone else has read , waht are everyones opinions of Maxi drives and JMD lockers , Anyone with any real life experience ? Written up a couple of months ago in LROI , seems interesting , and after contacting JMD they quoted a price of around 1100 US$ for locker and axles . Kind of pricey but you are getting HD axles . Opinions of all are entertained but those with experience tip the scales . Maybe some folks from OZ can chime in .

By Username on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Has anyone welded thier spider gears...cheap and easy and if they break you will know what it is simple you dont have to change anything and its always there