Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Since we have never experienced such numbers...	7		09/22 05:03pm

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:23 am: Edit

hope you are all well, and away from twin towers when the planes crashed.
fucking clusterfuck....

By Horness Spencer (Horness) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:31 am: Edit

real tragedy for all involved. passengers, public, and those working there.

Reports of two planes at the twin towers, plus one at the pentagon, and an explosion at capital hill.

very sad when people have to resort to this to try and make a point.

By mongo on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:16 am: Edit

UNFUCKING BELIEABLE...I WAS LEAVING FOR EUROPE, TOMORROW...

FRANK

By gil on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:18 am: Edit

you had to know it was going to happen sooner or later..

By Brian on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:25 am: Edit

I hope all your family and friends are safe and well and pray for those that aren't.

Brian

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:32 am: Edit

perhaps it's time to load the disco and head to moab...

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:41 am: Edit

How about you Maryland and DC folks... or anyone in Pennsylvania and New York... ARE YOU OKAY???!!!!


-L

By gil on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:01 am: Edit

ho i was thinking more like canada...

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:05 am: Edit

canada is good too.

By John C. on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:08 am: Edit

Downtown Manhattan is filled with sout, no more WTC, we cannot leave the building, there is no transportation, can't leave....

By John C. on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:10 am: Edit

Watch out...some planes still missing...

I was outside when the second plane hit, it was amazing, almost knocked me off my feet.

Looks like three planes were involved.

By Steve (Steve2) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:25 am: Edit

this really really sucks- and is pointless - i feel so sad for all those people. this is worse than pearl harbour.

i'm staying home today. good luck to all - and take care

By KJ on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:30 am: Edit

I live between two air bases in Maryland, Andrews and Pax River Naval Air Station. I'm hearing some distant air traffic which I'm guessing is the Military scrambling. This is a serious, f-ed up mess. Hold tight everyone.

Karen

By JEEPETR on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:33 am: Edit

Maryland is okay for now. Reports of a plane down in western Maryland near the vacinity of Camp David. I Work next door to an FBI building. They have men in body armor on the roof with m-16's, entrances blocked off, and armored personel carriers out back.

Thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved, this SHOULD NOT HAPPEN here at home, but I wish I could say I am suprised. Heartbroken, and Uncertain, but not suprised. I do hope that the US takes action to show that this kind of thing will not be tolerated on our soil, otherwise it will continue to happen with increasing frequency...

~Scott T.

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:36 am: Edit

Borders to Canada and Mexico are closed now.

I'm trying to not be rash, but if we don't hit back hard and fast, it'll just be an invitation to more.

-L

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:39 am: Edit

yeah, time for some major ass-wuppin.

By Lynden on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:41 am: Edit

I say hit back hard w/ calculation but hit back hard. If Afghanistan wants to protect these guys then hit targets w/out concern for casualties. We need to be pretty tough on this to show that you will not win!!!
Lynden

By mongo on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:53 am: Edit

We should turn Afganistan into a parking lot!!! Hit'em hard, hit'em fast...I was at the airport in syracuse, ny, we have a Squadron of F-16, scrambled, with long range tanks and missiles on the hard points...another report on the news that Binland threatened the US 3 weeks ago...
this is un-real

Frank

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:06 am: Edit

Heather and I work acrost the street from the Pentagon. We are home now. We saw the plane hit it on our way in. Its the biggest act of cowardice I have ever seen or heard of..

Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:09 am: Edit

Lots of people are goin to hell. I'd like to personally volunteer to help them get there quickly. YOU DON'T FUCK WITH MY HOME.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:09 am: Edit

All of DC is now a no fly Zone. F-16s and 18s buzzing around like bees..

Kyle

By Andrew Roane on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:11 am: Edit

Time to spend some major tax dollars on hitting them harder than they have ever been hit before. If not this will continue to happen. This is so screwed up. The world is now a different place.

I hope everyone is praying for all the innocent people involved.

Take Care.

Andrew

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:16 am: Edit

No Andrew , its the same world that it has always been. Everyone would just rather turn their head and make believe that it doesnt happen.


Kyle

By gil on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:23 am: Edit

no fly zones within our borders, collapse of the world trade towers, terrorism at the pentagon?? did i wake up in a different world this morning? we are not invincible...and now everybody knows that..imagine 110 stories of concrete and metal dropping onto one of the most densely populated cities in the world...at this point we still have no idea of the magnitude of what has occured..

By Diesel on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:27 am: Edit

Whoever is responsible should be nuked til they glow, so they can be shot in the dark. The sands of the Middle East should be turned to glass.

Hopefully, our counter attack hasn't been weakened too much by budget cuts over the last eight years.

Diesel

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:28 am: Edit

Kyle,

I think Andrew was saying that a lot of people just lost their rose-colored glasses.... a big pot of extra-strong coffee just got brewed...

-L

By mongo on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:29 am: Edit

Great point Klye, I've been a lot of places on this planet and it's unfortunate that we had to learn this the hard way. Terrorism should be dealt like a disease. Eliminate the cause. We've tolerated these people for way to long. We need to kick some ASS. Drop the gloves, forget about political correctness. Find the fucks and not worry about world thinks for a change.

Frank,
Glad your Ok

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:35 am: Edit

Yes , maybe now the peace lovers will see that we are where we are today because people bled and died. Cutting budjets and calling your military killers is rediculous at best. These are the men that dealt with things much worse then what happened today and did it for you. Today we just got to see the cowardice that runs rampant in the world up close and personal. It makes me sick..

Kyle

By Garyk (Garyk) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:40 am: Edit

I pray for the hundreds of innocent Americans who lost their lives this morning. I hope retribution will be swift, comprehensive and of mind-boggling proportions. We are the one country in the world that has the real ability to strike back with an unprecedented ferocity. The citizens, who died this morning, deserve to be avenged!

By gp (Garrett) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:46 am: Edit

one plane down in PA. about 80 miles from Pittsburgh.
got lots of friends in NYC and just waiting for them to check in.
heard from a few and they are in just plain shock. i could hardly imagine what is going on. kinda stuff that makes ya sick, sad and incredibly angry at the same time.

By lynden on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:51 am: Edit

I agree with all the sentiments expressed here. I fear though that there will be little done about this. The bleeding hearts will say we can't lash out and injure innocent people. I hope I am wrong and we attack the town, city or country housing these people, but I fear little will be done. It is a very sad day for our country.
Lynden

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:56 am: Edit

You are correct Lynden. If you want someone close to blame for this today. Blame them.. fucking ignorance.......


Kyle

By Charlie on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:04 am: Edit

Hit them hard and fast.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:10 am: Edit

Hit who? There is no one to hit. Cowards dont take ownership of their actions as they fear the consequences. We fly over and drop bombs on civilians there and we are no different.

Kyle

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit

Oh, there ARE people to hit. We just "can't" do it because it's politically incorrect to go into another country and actually hit them THAT hard.

Yeah, we had that 'little raid' back after the embassy bombings, trying to send Bin Laden a message, but it obviously didn't help.

We know within a reasonable area where he is, he and other leaders. You have to take of the snake's head. As surgical as possible, yes, to prevent unneeded bloodshed, but those cities need to be hit. FAST.

-L


(my days in the Marine infantry really trained me to let my blood boil over things like this... )

By Garyk (Garyk) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:23 am: Edit

The Taliban has officially denied Bin Laden's involvement in this attack. No pun intended, In a pigs eye!

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:27 am: Edit

I doubt they want to take this one. They might find themselves in the middle of a self lighting parking lot...

Kyle

By John Kruger on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 08:53 am: Edit

I find it interesting that they deny involvement, but state they expect the courts to find justice. This statement being made a day before the last Trade Center bomber is to be sentenced.

In this country, if I harbor a criminal, I am punished. Should we not begin to think similarly to those who harbor such people?

By wisker on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:24 am: Edit

I don't want to interupt this discussion, but I hope everyone has a full tank of gas. Rumor is it just hit $5.00/gal here.

wisker

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:27 am: Edit

Yeah , we filled on the way out of Arlington.

Kyle

By wisker on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 09:40 am: Edit

I thought everyone could use this . . . I know I needed to hear something like it about now.


At St. Vincent’s hospital in Greenwich Village, people waited in long lines to give blood. They were taken according to blood type. Hundreds of donors — perhaps as many as a thousand — looked like a tapestry of New York citizenry.
“There are all kinds of people — young and old, black and white, students and professionals waiting to give blood,” said Harry Barandes, a graduate student at New York University.

By artt on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:01 am: Edit

Prayers maybe good, but blood is better.

Kyle, that sounds like a real close call for you. Good thing you guys are okay.

Watching the Trade center towers hit and crumble was surreal and made me sick. The burning fuel dripping down and melt/weaken the steel was the likely cause of collapse.

The news is the US dollar is down and oil price is soaring; the day ain't over yet..., sigh...

By Daniel on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:22 am: Edit

I'm downtown in Chicago. I heard it said that the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was headed for Chicago and the pilot put it down in Pennsylvania rather than in Chicago.
This has been an eye opening day for our country.

Daniel

By Murray (Cdnrvr) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:30 am: Edit

I encourage everybody to give blood - gift of life. We have set up donation centers in Canada ... I am sure it is the same way in other countries so regardless of where you are give. Off to give a pint ...

By chrisvonc on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:37 am: Edit

I say it's time to take the gloves off, stomp the shit out of these terroist friendly nations, and claim the oil fields for ourselfs.

Chris

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:46 am: Edit

Yes , the oil is only theirs cause we let it be so. I think maybe they have forgotten that....


Kyle

By gil on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 10:55 am: Edit

gas @ 5 bucks a gallon?!?@#?# is that for real?

By wisker on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:20 am: Edit

False rummor . . . $1.60/gal It went up, but not that much. I went and checked for myself (don't tell my boss) Keep an eye on it though.

wisker

By Carl E. Cedeholm (Cederholm) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:28 am: Edit

I work at Standard & Poor's, about six blocks from the WTC, at the end of Wall St. Today was the second day of meetings I had uptown, so I wasn't at my office... at 10:15 we were permitted to leave the building we were in (it was locked down for security) and I started my trek home.
Looking down 6th ave from the 50's you could see the thick smoke at the end of the island.I walked from 49th st to delancy (below 1st street) to get my wife, and walk home to Brooklyn, the view from the bridge almost made me sick...this is my home...that's where work.
I live over the Brooklyn Bridge and can clearly see the smoke, and the missing towers, from my window.
When I got home, my Rover was covered in ashes...it will be days before I find out about all my friends.

By Glenn Guinto - glenn on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 11:39 am: Edit

Just got back from work. Suddenly, the issues that we have at work (lost internet connection since friday) became irrelevant. Man, this is un-fucking believable! Everybody at work just got glued on the TV and shocked by the turn of events. My father works in the city (NY) and has been there since this morning still trying to get out!

They can't do this to us!!! I say bomb the shit out of them. Kyle, i have relatives and friends in Crystal City that we've been trying to get a hold of - how's the situation there?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Well Glenn , comunications is hosed there and when we left around 11 it was still a disaster.The whole area was filled with thick black smoke like a war zone. If you contact them advise them of the age of the pentagon and the use of asbestos in its construction. In other words , tell them to stay the fuck inside or leave the area all together for the evening.

Kyle

By jim on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:30 pm: Edit

something going on in afganistan right now.

By marty amedeo (Marty) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

something going on in afganistan right now.


It's called retaliation....................or a taste of it!!

By jim on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:44 pm: Edit

not From the US though

By Jake on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit

KILL THEM ALL..... WE KNOW WHO DID THIS SHIT....DON'T FUCK AROUND ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!

Jake
US Army
Desert Storm
Somalia
Bosnia

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:11 pm: Edit

No , it wasnt the US , we wouldnt do such a thing... Isnt that kinda what they been saying all day ?? thats the first funny thing I have seen all day..

Kyle

By Jake on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Glad to hear that you are all alright. I moved and have not been on line for a while. This is truly a tradgedy that must not go unavenged. Any country,any organization, anybody who had a part in this MUST be taught a severe lesson in what happens when you screw with the US. I spent most of my time in the Army involved with the Middle East and this act is indicative of what the fanatics over there are capable of. Please keep your eyes and ears open, this may not be over....

By chuanchen on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Be calm, folks! This is what we need to do now.

I hate terrorism. And I know we'd better not simply do the same, or more, back to them because by doing that we'll lose more of our loved ones.

Hoping us government will do it right this time!!

God bless all of us on this planet!

chuanchen

By Steven Henry on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit

I was on my way into work in Manhattan, sitting on the Queens midtown tunnel approach this morning when the first plane hit. This was then followed by the second. How many other Discoweb users were in Manhattan today? I was at 22nd and 6th on the west side later on in the day.

I think everyone should take a few minutes to think about the people in the towers when they collapsed, and those below them.


Steven

By chuanchen on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:57 pm: Edit

I agree, Steven. This makes me totally sad.

How come such things have happened to those people? I still feel it's unreal.

chuanchen

By mike w on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:21 pm: Edit

God Bless America!

By Jake on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Amen, Mike W.! Now it's time for payback! ALL Americans should rally together to kick some terrorist ass!

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:48 pm: Edit

I think that the new splash page really sums up the best action for the American public right now - support and prayers for the victims and the thousands left behind in this act of absolute cowardice and hate. My family, it seems, has been spared directly from this tragedy, our thoughts are with those so much less fortunate than us.

America has grown soft in these past fifteen years since the Berlin wall fell, and we have known that eventually we would be called to task like so many of our allies by those who would wreak havoc on innocents.

The time has come to make a stand, and I truly believe we will see retribution unlike the soft courtroom drama we have grown so accustomed to this past decade. If this is indeed a holy war against America, I know that we will pull together across all of our racial and religious differences to put this evil down in a most decisive way.

God bless us all.

-Erik

By Garyk (Garyk) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:06 pm: Edit

I agree with Erik. Across all racial and religious differences, terrorists understand only one truth. Power! We demonstrated it in the liberation of Kuwait and now it's time for the biggest and swiftest demonstration possible. I feel sorry for those unfortunates who we come up against this time. They will go quickly to their God which I believe is what they want anyway. What kind of God would condone their type of barbaric violence anyway? Muslims I have met don't believe in this type of terrorism but they all believe in power. God bless America.

Gary

Ps: The news tonight reported the price of Gas hit $5.00 in Kansas!?

By Justin Dermody on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:14 pm: Edit

As usual, this board and its creators do us all proud. Well done, and thank you. Now, if our nation's decision makers can just stand up and live up to the President's promises. The (no word powerful enough for the emotions) must be brought to justice. And end has to be brought to this maniac and his dedication to terror.

I applaud you, Kyle, Ho, & Axel. And the exacting comments of so many. The "banner" is what we all feel. Thanks.

Justin

By Garyk (Garyk) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:32 pm: Edit

"I applaud you, Kyle, Ho, & Axel"

Me too. Thank you for the banner. It provided a small lift on an otherwise terrible day. One of my son's friends from college who worked in one of the towers, remains unaccounted for at this late hour. It feels like my own son is missing. Our prayers go out to all the victims and their families and loved ones.

Gary

By KJ on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Kyle, Ho and Axel, thank you for the new front page. Everyone, it's one foot after the next time. We had riding lessons tonight, as planned. I felt we all needed to be among friends, relieve stress and otherwise carry on as normally as we could. It was tough, very tough, but successful and important in our little corner of the world. If living well is the best revenge, let's not give the bastards the satisfaction of being thrown off our stride. I know justice will be sent down, and in the meantime I'm going to continue to make a safe haven for my people as best I can. My gut is wrenched but no one will ever see me sweat. Steady on everyone.....

Karen

By Anonymous on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Jake you are an idiot. That sort of retaliation "kill em all" is just what they want from us. We are not a 3rd world country. We have to react hard and fast I agree, but we must let our intelegence and maturity as a country shine more than our guns.

We need to hit ALL those responsable, but ONLY those responsable (and there mothers, wives, and dogs).

By Kent Westbrook on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:42 pm: Edit

I appreciated the opening banner too. It was a rough day here as my wife was up in NYC today. She normally works in the WTC, in the tower that was the first to collapse. She wasn't there today, thankfully, as she had a meeting in midtown. But I didn't find that out until later; spent the day on the phone to faraway family and friends, first having to tell everyone I didn't know anything, and being very worried then, when I finally heard she was OK, calling everyone back with the good news. All of the people she works with got out safely but I know in the morning there will be more news, and likely some of it close to home and tragic.

It's hell when you don't know what may or may not have happened to someone close to you, and the helplessness I felt earlier today still hasn't quite gone away. And it leaves me very frustrated and angry over today's events, that a few misguided, petty and cowardly individuals can do this to us. My heart goes out to all of those who still don't know about their loved ones.

By nonameman on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Yes, be mature and strong.

what's the difference between you and those terrorists if you "kill'em all"??!!

By Jake on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:12 am: Edit

Well, nonameman and anonymous, I am glad to see that you two are so mature... When I refer to "kill them all" I mean the terrorists that did this UNSPEAKABLE ACT. Get your head out of your ass: if you think that we should do anything but swift, and yes, violent retaliation to these bastards, then your weakness in making tough moral decisions is one reason these cowards think that they can strike us with impunity! There is a clear moral difference when you perform military action against one who is so wrong. I guess you might have spoken out against the bombing of Tokyo or Dresden too in WWII, but thats how EVIL is dealt with. And, gentlemen, if you don't think that we are confronting evil here, you are FOOLS. One does not become a cockroach when you stop on it.........

James Hartley (Jake)
US Army veteran,commissioned officer
20 years of service to my country dealing with people like this and proud of.

By ryan on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:02 am: Edit

I hope everybody is okay. Yesterday truely was a scary day, but this just makes it a lot more scary. I found this link in another message board(www.bmwm5.com.) This is damn scary:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...anset.com#link1


Pay attention to the subject name and dates. I believe that this message has already been forwarded to the proper authorities.

By Anonymous on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:06 am: Edit

whether he did it or not Bin Laden should be taken out now. The fact that he could and potentially would do something like this is enough to justify his death and the deaths of ALL his followers

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:07 am: Edit

That sort of retaliation "kill em all" is just what they want from us.

They want us to shut down and be scared. Seems it worked.

By Daniel on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:06 am: Edit

Ryan,
That page has been removed. What was it?
Daniel

By Anonymous on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:37 am: Edit

Yes we should retaliate HARD and FAST against those responsable, but we MUST know who is responsable. In the OKC Bombing, all fingers pionted toward foreign powers, just to find out it was a crazy %$#@ing American.

If we were to blow up all of Afganistan tonight, and find out two weeks from now that it was not them, that would be nationally embarassing, and could spark more retaliation of those sorts from their pissed off supporters.

We must show CALM, and intelegence, or we will be no futher from animals than them.

P.S. I am the 1st Anonymous that Jake doesn't like.

By mongo on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 04:59 am: Edit

I've been listening to local radio and watching the news and it MAKES ME SICK to think that poeple are concerned about making the right decision on when and how to eliminate thease ASSHOLES who did this. If we take out the wrong group, TOUGH SHIT. They shouldn't have threatened the US in the first place. Look at Isreal, these stupid f@#ks mess with them, they take out the ENEMY. That's what all these radical groups are, THE ENEMY. Don't you people get it, THEY WANT TO KILL YOU, if flying planes into buildings doesn't send this home, I don't know what will.
This was a ATTACK agaisnt everything this great country stands for. We've lost part of our FREEDOM yesterday when these assholes did what they did. BE CALM, yes, But I think we should elminate all the groups and governments that support actions like that were taken yesterday.
I also get a kick out of the fact that some of the post about this were posted anonymous, grow some balls and put a name behind what you say. If not, be a pussy the rest of your life and whine about how we deal with this. Make a stand for what YOU believe, but don't do it as a faceless whimp.

Frank

By lynden on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:34 am: Edit

I agree w/ the post above. TAKE OUT BIN LADDEN!!! If he didn't do it then at least he won't copycat, and DO NOT be affraid to strike innocent bystanders. Bin Ladden hides amongst the people and the government allows this. We should not be worried about who else we take out besides him. This will show every other group of fanatics that we are serious and that we will exact revenge regardless of the costs to the other side. Other countries do this all the time w/ no reprisal, its about time we get off the moral high horse and show the world that we are the only remaining world power and that you don't mess w/ a world power!!!
Lynden

By Andrew Roane on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

I agree with Frank and Lynden and we need to hit every group that could have possibly done this and we need to do it now. Every faction and every country that is harboring them should pay and pay dearly. The terrorist have changed the USA and we need to make it known that we will not stand for this.

Andrew

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

Debora and I are fine. Debs was on her way to Chinatown in NY. When she went into a toll there was still one building left. When she came out there was none. I hope every one of you and your families are safe.
Dean

By wturner on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:00 am: Edit

Frank,

I support everything you are saying.

I have in no way said that we shouldn't kill all invoved with the threat of our American soil. I am just saying that "kill em all" is not the attitude to hold, because "em all" ain't who did this, it was a group, and if you read my first entry I said...
"We need to hit ALL those responsable, but ONLY those responsable (and there mothers, wives, and dogs). "

I am NOT concerned with making the right decision on how to eliminate these ASSHOLES who did this. As far as I am concerned we could tourcher (spelling?) them all with boiling oil, and hot clothes hangers until they beg to die.

But we can't just go "kill em all", because "em all" is a lot of people, and doing that could lose some of the mid east and other international support that we now have. A lot of our allie nations have given support to the U.S. and have condemed the actions taken yesterday. If we jump the gun and kill some of their "friends" that may have had nothing to so with it, then that will piss them off and we could lose their support.

We are the most powerfull nation in the world, YES. But so were the Romans! Where the hell are they now? Tuesday, it was proven to us that we are penetrable and are under a threat, even from a little Saudi millionare crazy fuck.

I do, however, agree that sense he has made threats in the past, and even followed through on them, that he and his followers should DIE. More and more evidence is already pionting toward this freak, and we have now received green light from the United Nations to retaliate. So now would be a much more appropriate time to "kill em all" than yesterday.

Once again the first "Anonymous" a faceless whimp.

William J Turner III
20 years old of Austin, Texas.

wturner3@hotmail.com

By KJ on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:05 am: Edit

Kent,

I'm so glad to hear you had a happy ending yesterday. It must have been terrible not knowing.

We all have a long road ahead, that's for sure. I hope everyone works on holding up their little corner of the world. If we all do that, then we're doing our part. Give blood, comfort a child, help out a friend, whatever you feel up to contributing makes a difference. If you need help, accept it when it's offered. I can't control what the higher-ups do, but I can control what *I* do. I'll continue to do my job, and I might even get around to reading my Owner's Manual.....

Karen ;)

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:47 am: Edit

Now maybe the airlines will allow their pilots to carry guns. None of yesterday would have happenend if the pilot and co-pilot were armed. What gets me is that these guys used knives and every body on the plane let them do it. Sure one or two people would have gotten stabbed while the rest of the people beat the snot out of the hijackers.. 20 - 40 people against a couple guys with knives.. Sure, know one wants to get hurt but, some times you have to do what you have to do. I feel sorry for every one that was killed, hurt, or had a loved one taken away or even saw some one hurt. However, this could have been avoided. I hope that they find out who did this and kill everyone of them slowly and publically. And then kill everyone else they ever knew. Then bomb their country for the hell of it. Off to give blood even though I would rather be shedding it at this point.

By ryan on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:47 am: Edit

Is seems that the link has been erased. This is basically what it said. This guy, named xinoehpoel started a thread called 911 on 9/4/01. He said he will be going, but he will be back. Earlier today he posted this(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:tesnal%40psl.moc&hl=en&rnum=5&selm=3b9e2300%40monitor.lanset.com) on a different board:

By Daniel on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:52 am: Edit

I do agree that we need to retailate with swift and decisive action. I do also feel as though the U.S. must be accurate in it's retaliation for two reasons.
1.The individuals or groups who are responsible for this need to be punished for this.
2.We need to send a clear message to any other groups that if they take this type of action, they WILL be found and the response will be severe.

We would not be well served if an unrelated group is condemned for the actions of another.

Daniel

By mongo on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:00 am: Edit

Hey William,
Do you really think we have the support of ANY country in the Middle East? Short of the Suadi's and Kuwait's. We don't even have thier full support for eliminating the threat from Hussien, and he tried to take over Kuwait. The reality of this situation is that unless we take out the emeny, we will always live is a world of fear. I fly every week, and I travel internationally, I've seen first hand counties that HATE AMERICANS's and we as a country support them with aid in many forms.
The bottom line in this thing is forget Political correctness, stop worring about what the world thinks and PROTECT OUR ASS! Did the people who did this worry about the lives they took? No f@#king way, and should we worry about the innocent people invovled with these groups? Are they innocecnt? The problem is that we have taken such a complacent attitude toward terrorism that these animals think they are safe. I think these animals need a f#@king wake-up call, ALL OF THEM, Kill people in the US, WE WILL TAKE YOU OUT.
I'm glad you put a name with the comments, it shows you have the guts to take a stand. That's what the US has to do now. TAKE A STAND AGAINST TERRORISM, DON'T LIVE THE THREAT,ELIMINATE IT. There is no reason why anyone should have gone through this. STOP worring about the world and take care of our own. If that means we piss off some of our Allies, then be it. Let them recken with the fact that if you harbour murders, then pay the price.

Gotta get my off Soapbox...and William never be afraid to speak your mind in any way,shape or form. It's what makes this country great...

Frank

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:32 am: Edit

it's great to see people come in the soap box and all.
sharing our frustrations and things.
and seems like we all differ on how we feel things should be taken care of.

i'll just leave that to bush and the gang.

but, one thing i am sure we agree on is that we should go to NY and help people out.
but since thats' just not fisible, let's just pray that we get as many survivers as possible.

By lynden on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit

I actually contemplated going to NY to help yesterday, but by the time I got there (from WA) they probably would've had the trials over and new buildings put up.

I will echo the sentiments above that we cannot worry what our allies will say. If they want to continue to suckle from the US tit they won't say a damned thing while we clean house. I think we should target 5 of the biggest terrorist organizations and destroy them, their training grounds, along w/ their homes and families. This calls for retribution not pussy-footing around the issue!!! Otherwise we will never again be safe in our own home!!!
Lynden

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:36 am: Edit

Lower Manhattan is still closed off, and is best left to the professional rescue workers. The best thing the rest of us can do right now is to go to the nearest hospital and give blood - no matter where in the country we happen to be located. We can worry about who did this and how to retaliate later, right now there are more urgent needs.

Axel

By wturner on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:49 am: Edit

Well said Axel.

William

By KJ on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:06 am: Edit

And if you want to donate money online to the Red Cross, here's the URL. The site is VERY busy, so it might not work the first time you try.

https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp

Karen

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:13 am: Edit

Did you all check out Ryan's second link? THAT is the kind of skewed mentality that we are dealing with. THAT is the kind of mentality that just killed how many thousands of our fellow citizens. These whackjobs think WE are all satan. Did you see those dark-age motherfuckers dancing in the streets? Men, women, and children. Paint a big crosshair in the middle of that street and plant a cruise missile there. These people would shoot you, your wife, your kids, and your damn dog right in the face if Allah "blessed them" with the chance. They'd pilot an airplane into an occupied building if they got the chance...oh, wait a minute....

We are still trying to "bring to justice" the dipshits who perpetrated the first WTC bombing from 1993! When the shit hits the fan, you need men like Jake to take the helm. I think we're all in agrement that the shit just hit the fan. Jake, I'm with ya, good buddy.

Wilfrid M. Gill III
Proud son of Wilfrid M. Gill, Jr. MD, Colonel US Army (Ret)

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:33 am: Edit

While I agree with most here is saying that all the groups should just dissapear. I however do think that our country wants and needs closure and retribution. That wont come if you just go wipe them all out first and ask questions later. I feel we should do what it takes to find out who it was first so we can put some faces to the crimes. THEN , wipe them out slowly after dragging them back here. After thats out of the way I think the US and the world would benefit greatly if our policy and budget towards terrorism was changed drastically. If a threat is made, the cell that made it should very simply be erased from the planet. Each and every time without pause or question. If there are sympathizers they too can suffer the wrath of what their brothers started yesterday. We have given way too much lee way to rags over there in the sand that like to talk allot of shit. I think its time to deliver them a little humiliation , in the doses it takes to stop it ofcourse. Peace only comes through violence. Its the way it has always been. Denying that or turning your head to it is just plain ignorant... Thats my two cents..


Kyle

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:37 am: Edit

Peace only comes through violence

well said.

Ron

By John on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:52 am: Edit

We will survive, we will learn and we will give the appropriate retribution...thats what makes our country great. We stumble, we get bloodied, we learn and we kick the proper ass. Bless the people we have lost and bless the will of the American people.

By Jake on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:58 am: Edit

Peace will only come when we eliminate these vermin: I have friends unaccounted for in the Pentagon and 1 hair from their ass is worth more than ten thousand of the assholes that would do this to us. It is time to live free or die, and those assholes want our freedom AND our lives

James Hartley
Major, US Army retired

By Moe (Moe) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:13 am: Edit

---Peace only comes through violence
Yeah and peace only comes when violence is in a abeyance.

One thing I have grown to admire about Americans (aside from a few stragglers) is that they can live in a completely divided and contentious society, but when hit from the outside those divisions disappear and what is left is a physically and spiritually powerful nation. Awesome to see and be a part of.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:20 am: Edit

Thats why the US was so united when the enemy was always there and was always visible. When threats dissapeared so did unity and focus. I think the type of animal we are is always waring by nature. When we dont have an outside enemy we then fight each other within... Thats how it seeems to me...YOu are right however in stating how great it is that those little battles get dropped like they never happened and focus swings on the ouside target.... I hope we never lose that ability..

Kyle

By Moe (Moe) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:24 am: Edit

.... I hope we never lose that ability..

Yeah so do I. Like you said its about maintaining an external enemy . . and when you start believing the world is a peace loving place that's when it fall apart

By Moe (Moe) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:29 am: Edit

As a side note, in the NATO agreement an attack on one is an attack on all. If enough evidence is collected, Europeans will enjoy and by treaty agreement be compelled to take part in the necessary response.

By ryan on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:37 am: Edit

Good job guys, none of you said "we should just nuke the middle east." That's the sort of shit that I've been hearing. It's funny how people steerotype the Middle East. Just because some crazy motherfucking group from the Middle East hates America, every Middle Eastern should die...that's a bunch of shit!! I think that we should just find the bastards who did this and kill them. I think we should first torture them like the Middle Easterns torture their accused. Barry them in a desert with their heads sticking out of the ground, cut out their eye-lids and make them stare at the 2:00 sun. They'll first go blind...die...voltures take care of the rest.

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:42 am: Edit

Yes, I was reading the Norwegian news this morning, and the Norwegian government is already saying they are prepared to assist with military assets if requested to do so by the US.

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit

Ask the russians how they did in their war against Afganistan.

conventional war is a waste of time and lives

The real question is whether finding the few who directly were responsible is enough or whether we want to go to war with the country(s) that support(ed) them.

Popular opinion I think would favor the latter, although the longer it takes for the govt. to tell us what we already know the less furver we will have in calling for war.

Cheers
Ron

PS while other countires military support is nice only their political support is really necessary

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:09 am: Edit

>"Ask the russians how they did in their war against Afganistan.

>conventional war is a waste of time and lives"

you're right there, Ron. Rather than march on Afghanistan, I think we'd be taking the "smart weapon" approach here. Jake, I am sure, could comment...

Also, throwing out the nuke card would be a dangerous ice-breaker on our part. You don't need to be a superpower with a fleet of B-52s to engage in nuclear war anymore............................

By John on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:28 am: Edit

The smart weapon is our calling card...of course the middle east is split down the middle(muslum stuff) so if Afganistan is targeted that means all the Muslum radical nations would unite even though they have had their former wars against each other. This time go all the way to Bagdad while we are at it. The middle east has always been the ground for the next big one....oil and religion is always warred over it seems. Bring back Norman...

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:31 am: Edit

You need to look at coventional in the very narrow sense of the word and not necessarily as impling unconventional (ie nuclear etc.).

One of my hobbies has always been this polical/military/warfare/CIA read some very interesting books on the subject, took some good classes, learned from some experienced people.

The one thing that has been proven over and over again is that it is next to impossible to overthrow a government by anything OTHER than a conventional occupation. Iraq, vietnam, cuba all prove that point. So unless the US is willing to forcibly occupy whatever country we see as the guity party then we will lose.

Unless, (as someone mentioned) we are willing to attack the leaders of that country. This has historcially been taboo as the general response to the killing of one country's leader is the killing of the offending country's leader. So far no pres. (or for that matter other leader) has been willing to risk it (excluding 3 world nations and their basically interal struggles). I think this may change if the cards play out as I suspect they might. It is, of course, very much dependent on the occupant of the white house. Had John M. or Pat B. won and been in charge there probably would have been action already.

Of course the problem with all this is that the larger the retaliation, the more people will dislike the US, then the more terrorists there will be, then the greater need for retrabution, the more people will be upset, so basically it boils down to you either take out everyone against you or you do a measured response. In the latter, it does not work, in the former you bring upon yourself more of what caused you to seek retrabution in the first place. Very complex choices to be made. Hope G dubya and the gang have studied their history.


Ron

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:32 am: Edit

Read Honorable Treachery for a nice starter book

Ron

By Ron on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:52 am: Edit

The middle east has always been the ground
for the next big one.

Yes,
Of course then it is a question of whether you believe the "next big one" is inevitable or not. 10,000 years of recorded history is tough to argue with on that question. So do you want to fight now or later?

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Ron we could completely cripple that whole area without a single American platoon setting foot on that soil. There would be a few small groups needed for targeting but "they were never there". After the dust settled you can go in and mop the place up. But I dont think thats something we need or want to do. I think useing those same weapons to target the problem areas is where its at. It shows them just how easy it is to completely change their lanscape from afar.. Nukes is bad news , however , I think if they get em , we will suffer from it...To me a gross display of force is not really being forcefull at all , its simply being unwaivering in the punishments you levy , weather they be big or small doesnt matter as long as they can be depended on as coming if someone makes a threat. Thats how you train a dog , thats how you train a rag... sounds bad but thats natures way , we learn by doing . They did and now the learning should begin.

Kyle

By John on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

2 "superpowers" exist in the middle east...oil fields and the muslum radicals. Its inevitable the "superpower" will flex its resources when able and ready. With the wealth there its a matter of time before the proliferation of mass destruction and delivery capabilty will be part of that flexing. That would not be a pretty war of words or deeds. I would rather face the problems now, as terrorism will only grow, as loss of life will only grow. Currently we do have international support and sharing of muscle with allies that have current capability. Why not face the problem now?

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit

>"The one thing that has been proven over and over again is that it is next to impossible to overthrow a government by anything OTHER than a conventional occupation."

Right again, Ron...but I am talking about decimation vs. occupation. Or, as Kyle put it, go in after the dust settled and mop the place up. We are not necessarily talking about overthrowing a govt here, just punishing those factions responsible. If it is discovered that a govt is indeed responsible, then why not stick to decimate & then mop plan? Cause of disease is killed, and next cause has food for thought prior to infecting...

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:18 pm: Edit

hmmmm.. I little off the subject but, Nostrodomus (spelling) predicted that we would get nuked by one of the middle eastern countries starting the final world war. From the looks at how things are going I would say that he may not be far off. I have no doubt in my mind that if the freaks that did this aren't caught, punished (tortured to death), and made an example out of the next band of freaks may get a hold of some nukes from Russia (who can't seem to hold onto theirs) and use them on us. I'm sure the freaks that did this wouldn't even blink an eye about sending us into a radio active waste land. I say not only should we catch these freaks but, we should go to every country that cheered for them and put them back into the stone age so that they can no longer be a threat to us. I also think it is time that we cut off aid to these little piss ass countries and let them feed them selves or starve. We are the bleeding heart liberals of the world and it is time that we stopped helping countries that hate us and start helping our selves. I feel sorry for the middle eastern people that are over here though. I was at the Safeway up the street from me and there was a guy wearing a turban (spelling) in line with me and a couple of other people behind me were really laying into him. He left the store before he got a chance to get his stuff in fear for his safety. They were pretty specific about what they wanted to do to him. I would normally say some thing to them but, in this case I had the same feelings just thought them to my self.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:29 pm: Edit

John , on this we agree. Its better now then later. The big difference between the two will be our loss. As long as they dont have drop kits on the assault vehicles they use we will be all good. Hmmm , maybe we can convince the rags to get lawn chairs installed in all their vehicles. That would help $G out and help us win the war..

Kyle

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:32 pm: Edit

picking on the innocent just because of their nationality is WEAK and WRONG. What you witnessed, Eric, is a damned crying shame. Those bastards who were threatening the poor guy who was picking up his groceries should strap on a pair of balls and confront the real menace...they are nothing more than playground bullies. Damn, that pisses me off. someone give me an angry flaming icon...

By John on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

It all comes down to how can we beat up the bad radicals(rags), and still buy oil... We have good Saudi friends and Norman sure made many Middle East friends(Kuwati) with Desort Storm...We just have to bloody the bad asses and keep the relations with their Muslum neighbors so we can buy damn oil. Thats the "fine line in the sand".
The big one will be over the damn oil...but not in my old age life time. One thing we saw with DS was the inability of the radicals to face the hard lesson of kicking ass in the desert. They just give up, go back home and pass out candy when the terrorist makes a strike. We got to do it now...kick selected ass when necessary as they will never learn. To take out heads of state means pot luck on the next "leader" of the unstable countries. But damn, we can wimp and take it or we can stand up and use our abilities. We have no choice.

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Yes, it is sad Blue but, I'm sure that it is happening all over the place about now. Some people are just like that and it doesn't matter to them if it is wrong or right. The media isn't helping that any either. Showing all those kids getting candy and having a party cause some freaks blew up America really had me pissed as I'm sure it did the same to many others. That's all I could see in my mind when they were picking on him. I kept my mouth shut but, I can't say that the same thoughts didn't cross my mind. I just know better.

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:08 pm: Edit

If the US plays this right, most of the world may contribute to the demise of these evil cowards. Believe me, no one wants Afghanistan to go away more than Russia. We're the ones who put the Taliban in power, further isolating ourselves from the USSR a decade ago.

My bet is we'll receive a lot more support if we make a concerted attempt to positively identify the perpetrator(s) of this act of war with hard evidence. NATO is starting to line up, and we can count Israel and the Emirates on our side. While we must resist the urge to spring forward and lash out today, we must not allow the lives lost and pain of the moment to dissipate into complacency.

God Bless the United States and our Allies as we show these cowards the full force of our conviction. I'd love to see the Don't Tread on Me flag fly over the Capital and White house right next to the Stars and Stripes while we put these guys down.

Erik

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:15 pm: Edit

sure, we all have ethnocentric tendancies - that ties back to basic imprinted instincts. The key to being truly advanced is tempering your instincts with your knowledge. and it probably is happening all over the place right now.

By wturner on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Do you think our J**P buddies have discusions this educated? Ha Ha.

A little humor never hurts.

God Bless America
God Damn those who threaten our freedom

By wturner on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:40 pm: Edit

We have established a LOT of international back in this, I say it's time to RELEASE THE DOGS.

By MA on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 01:57 pm: Edit

First off, Nostrodomus is full of shit. His original texts were written in an almost extinct form of french and latin, that nobody on earth(back then, and now) could translate it. The choads who interpreted it just wanted to get some attention. Didn't Nostrodomus also predict that the world would end in 1984? Ryan, Blue, others I couldn't agree more. Middle Easterns' are(for the most part) good people. Only 2 out of several of the Middle Eastern countries can be dubbed "hostile." Even the word "hostile" is a over-statement. I believe that people(with no sense of intellegance) will start discriminating against people with Middle Eastern descent. I believe that the people(group) who did yesterday's crimes should pay. Their followers shold also be taught a lesson.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:12 pm: Edit

yeah, interpreting Nostrodomus is no different than interpreting your horoscope in the back of a chick mag. We can fool ourselves into believing it has meaning so we can all ooh and ahhh.

good use of "choad"

By KJ on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Nostradamus learned everything he knew from Miss Cleo. When properly translated it all means, "Oooooooo girl, he cheatin' on you!"

Karen, off to look up the word "choad"

By MTB on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:34 pm: Edit

The crime that happened on Tuesday did not just hit us in the USA it will affect the whole world.
The USA will never be the same.
Because now we are at war. Yes it will be a war unlike any we have seen.
We have no choice. We must strike back and hard.
That will not be the end, as we are angry to what happened to us they will be the same when we strike and kill innocent people. And they will feel that they must strike us back or it could be worse they will hit us and other nations that support our strikes or give aid.
By no means this will be like the Desert Storm.
It will be a long war with alot of innocent people dying for years to come. We are dealing with terrorist we will never know when or where or worse what will be used as a weapon.
One thing we need to do is remember that not all Middle Eastern people are our enimeies. And the months or years to come we must not let our fears get the best of us and start locking up or attacking Americans just because they are Middle Eastern or Muslim.
It very shitty how one small group can fuck everything up for the world in less than 1 hour
Good luck to everyone in the world and live everyday to the fullest.

Michael B

By Andy Nix (Andy) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 08:59 pm: Edit

the Nostradamus quote was FAKE !!!!

Some joker posted that on the web, as a HOAX !!!

By Rich Lee on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 09:37 pm: Edit

“I was at the Safeway up the street from me and there was a guy wearing a turban (spelling) in line with me and a couple of other people behind me were really laying into him. He left the store before he got a chance to get his stuff in fear for his safety. They were pretty specific about what they wanted to do to him. I would normally say some thing to them but, in this case I had the same feelings just thought them to my self. “

More than likely, the guy was a Sikh, from India (not Afghanistan/Pakistan, etc). Sikhs are not Muslims and are the only people that I see wearing turbans in the US (Muslims seldom do). Indians are NOT a friend of these countries either (I was in India near the border of Pakistan this spring and can accurately attest to that). This ignorant stereotyping bigotry is something I would expect from the Jeep crowd. India (including it’s Sikhs) may be one of our nearest allies when we act against these assholes. If you don’t even know who “the enemy” is, then you are a threat to those who are truly dedicated to eliminating them.

”Peace only comes through violence”

I think Ghandi, King, Ueshiba (founder and master of Aikido & Aikijitsu) and even Schwartzkopf might disagree with that statement. However, I’m sure Bin Laden would agree fully with it.

How many of you have seen the kind of violence we are talking about? How many of you have seen, treated or inflicted human gunshot or blast wounds? (I admit I am not fully qualified here as I have not yet inflicted any). Also, How many of you have smelled the stench of children rotting under rubble or tried to piece together the survivor of a building “pancake collapse” (again I can’t claim full credit here as there were only 400 children buried in this village, the pancake collapse was only 14 stories and the disaster was an earthquake). My point here is that human death is something very different when you are in the midst of it, and should never be taken lightly….Especially when you are demanding that it should be dealt to “all of them”.

I get very pissed when I hear people who think they know all they need to know about death, killing and retaliation from their TV set, computer games or latest issue of Soldier of Fortune. Mass indiscriminate death, no matter how it happens is a horror that will change your life and your view of life. If your mind remains intact, you will be more thoughtful before you call for more of it.

Be careful what you wish for. IMHO, Violence only comes from violence. Peace comes from preventing violence. Sometimes through superior firepower. Sometimes through sabotage of your enemy’s infrastructure and sometimes through the elimination of violent people.

Having said all that, I FEEL all those responsible should be blown to hell, but it would probably be wiser if they all spent a lifetime rotting in humiliation and never be allowed to become martyrs.

Meanwhile, I would like to see all the women of Afghanistan fully educated and well armed against the Taliban. While we’re at it, let’s help Ahmed Shah Massoud succeed in his revolution against the Taliban (he is probably the most qualified person to effectively kick ass on them), and finally, burn the opium fields, replace them with food crops and transform the economy away from drugs and terrorism. Pulling this off would get rid of the real assholes, cost less and give little fuel to the terrorist cause. It would just not feel as good right now as “killing em’ all”.

My 2 cents.

By Steve (Oz93discov8) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:08 am: Edit

Down here in Australia we're hearing & seeing all sorts of horrible things that have happened to you good folk in "the States". We just hope you don't lose faith and come back hard to show those gutless bastards who you are and what makes you so strong. Just do whatever you have to do to sort them out. There wouldn't be too many in Australia who would disagree.

By Jake on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:44 am: Edit

Rich:

Well stated message. Indeed, most people in this country have never seen or heard a shot fired in anger, certainly not the aftermath of war. It is, as people are now realizing, not like the movies. I understand how everyone feels, anger has been rising like bile inside me since this has occured. The results of this will not be pretty: we will not be able to accomplish all that we need to do, no, must do, with the "smart weapons" we use. There will have to be troops on the ground and in the air and on the sea to accomplish this. If we are to erradicate this scourge, we will have to have resolve like we as a nation have not had since WWII. There will be casualties beyond those of 11 September and there will most likely be more acts of war committed on our soil. I have seen this in other lands while I was in the Army and I truly hope that we are ready here at home for what is to come. It will be done, and freedom will prevail, but it will not be a free ride. Steel yourselves for what is to come and love your families, take care of what is yours. God Bless the USA....God Bless All of You here.

By Ali on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 04:04 am: Edit

Hi guys, after a terrible day, I decided to lay low yesterday. We had to evacuate our building since it's right next to the Sears tower. Quite a few buildings in downtown Chicago were evacuated and few rec'd bomb threats. The Home Depot near my house rec'd one too...go figure.

Garyck wrote:
"...I pray for the hundreds of innocent Americans...".

Please keep in mind this includes all sorts of races including Middle Easterners who perieshed in this senseless act. Justice should be swift for the perps. Actions by a few people from one country DON'T represent the entire population. Also remember that in some countries people wonder every morning if they'll be able eat dinner that night and will the entire family be together at the table! And no, I'm not from the Middle East!

My American flag is at half mast in front of my house.

Good day.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:00 am: Edit

Rich , it seems that the people on the planes were peacefull. What did that bring them? What did it bring others. I can tell you what it brought some of them because I was right there watching as the plane went into the pentagon. A little violence more then likely would have changed that.... It was proven in PA. If Ghandi had of been on one of those planes he would have gone down with the rest. That aint peace....

Kyle

By Daniel on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit

I have a few thoughts on this situation which I find to be frightening.
First, I see a frightening parallel to the conflict in Vietnam.
It is this. We are in a conflict with an enemy who is within our boundaries. We may not be able to identify our enemy until they take action.

Bin Laden literally and formally declared war on the U.S. in (I believe) 1998.

I am 27 years old. I did not live through, but have read a great deal on Vietnam from personal interest.
The conflict in Vietnam was handles essentially under two radically different stratigies.
The first was devised by a General Westmoreland.
He felt that the conflict could be won by killing more of them than they could replace. (attrition)
This proved to be woefully innefective.

The second strategy was devised and implemented by a General Abrams.
His strategy revolved around providing for the SECURITY of the Vietnamese people. Since he was fighting an enemy that could choose the time and place of action, he ensured that protection and security be the piority. This proved to be many times more effective in turning the tide of the conflict.
Although this is VERY simplified, it bears mentioning that we cannot afford to focus only on catching the "mastermind" behind this.


The strength of terrorism lies in the fact that
leaders have networks of operatives in place with a dedicated mission. They will complete their objective regadless of whether Bin Laden (assuming he is responsible) is caught, or bombed, or beheaded or whatever. There may well be a large number missions that have yet to be carried out. These "sleepers" have had years to infiltrate and lay the groundwork for their "holy war". They are dedicated and patient.
No one expects to win a war in one day worth of attacks. As I said, security must be paramount.

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:32 am: Edit

"He felt that the conflict could be won by killing more of them than they could replace. (attrition)
This proved to be woefully innefective."

Only because the US was focused on fighting a limited conflict. Had the heart and PEOPLE of the country been attacked as it had been in Japan and Germany success would have been more attainable.

So long as the US would not eliminate all the vietnemese who were sympathetic to the Communists and so long as the VC and NVA fought a non-conventional war and were will to lose 10x as many soliders as the US. The US would never win.

There may well be a large number missions that have yet to be carried out. These "sleepers" have had years to infiltrate and lay the groundwork for their "holy war".

How do you propose we eliminate this threat? Short of racial and religious profiling there is no way I can see.

No matter how we circle around it becomes clear that the choice is whether to give up what the US has as yet been willing to do, mainly make freedom for all americans EXCEPT those that MAY be member of suspect groups OR restrict the freedom of ALL americans to a degree that limits ALL americans rights.

Internationally short of total annialation of any group suspect of opposition how do you exspect to prevent something like this from happening again? What if next time it is a nuclear terrorist attack?

By Garyk (Garyk) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:01 am: Edit

Garyck wrote:
"...I pray for the hundreds of innocent Americans...".

Please keep in mind this includes all sorts of races including Middle Easterners who perieshed in this senseless act.

Ali you are correct. I have worked in the middle east years ago and people I know and respect would not condone any of this and would strike down the factions who have celebrated American deaths if they could. This transcends politics and religion, it's about fanatics who deserve punishment. AND THEY WILL BE PUNISHED! Stay tuned...

Gary

By Ali on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:13 am: Edit

Amen to that!

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:40 am: Edit

i've listen to this song hundreds of times.. i never really knew what he was singing about. just figured it was about hard times. i have a completely new interpritation of the song now and it's chilling.

and i hope it's a hard rain of buillets and fire

please read:



Bob Dylan's a hard rain is a-gonna fall




Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains,
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked
highways,
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests,
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans,
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a
graveyard,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and
it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it,
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin',
I saw a room full of men with their hammers
a-bleedin',
I saw a white ladder all covered with water,
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all
broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young
children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's
a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a
warnin',
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole
world,
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were
a-blazin',
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin',
Heard one person starve, I heard many people
laughin',
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter,
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's
a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony,
I met a white man who walked a black dog,
I met a young woman whose body was burning,
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow,
I met one man who was wounded in love,
I met another man who was wounded with hatred,
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a
hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts
a-fallin',
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest,
Where the people are many and their hands are all
empty,
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their
waters,
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty
prison,
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden,
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten,
Where black is the color, where none is the number,
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and
breathe it,
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can
see it,
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin',
But I'll know my song well before I start singin',
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a
hard,
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

By Milan on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 06:54 am: Edit

"This ignorant stereotyping bigotry is something I would expect from the Jeep crowd. "

Isn't this just as ignorant and stereotypical????

My heart goes out to the injured, killed and their families and friends.

By Daniel on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 08:06 am: Edit

Anonymous,
A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam
In Stock:Ships within 24 hours .
Lewis Sorley / Paperback / Harcourt / August 2000
Our Price: $13.50, You Save 10%

This is probably the best book I have read on the subject.
It it a broad command-level view of the events before and after the change of command in Vietnam.

The reason I recommend this book it is that I believe Bin Laden has been planning for three years to engage the U.S. He predicted it and he has not been taking any vacations.
In a worst-case scenario, we could find ourselves in a similar type of conflict as Vietnam. Where the enemy is within and not recognizable. (again, I know there are MANY more things involved I am just concerned with this one point) If this happens, we can all expect to be forced to give up some of our freedoms in the name of security. This itself would be a small victory for these bastards.

Effective security and intelligence work is the best way to eliminate, or at least diminish the threat.
With good security those guys and their weapons would have never made it on the plane. With good intelligence, they would have never made it to the airport.

As far as winning in Vietnam, according to the author, the U.S. under Abram's guidance did succeed in providing a secure environment for the government of South Vietnam. It was only after congress loss the taste for funding their ongoing struggle, that they were overthrown. Remember the North was still being supported by China and others. Although it is a different kind of warfare, terrorism can be beaten now just as it was then. (I do know the overall effort was considered a failure, but from what I understand, the U.S. simply ended it's financial support too soon. The military had already pretty much pulled out.)

The point I make is that when in fighting a war of this nature, the safety of the citizens of the country must be held in the highest regard. It is more important IMHO to ensure that no more incidents occur than it is to rush off with all our might and retaliate. If the citizenry of country do not feel secure at their homes, churches, schools and jobs there won't be any support for a government or a war or anything else.

By Garyk (Garyk) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 08:31 am: Edit

With all due respect to everyone's opinions here, stay tuned, I think the military is gearing up for an assault. When,where and against whom is anyone's guess but I don't envy those people on the receiving end! They are going to see the meaning of what Teddy Roosevelt once called "The Big Stick" when referring to the military power of the U.S.

To our enemies, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it ANYMORE!

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 08:38 am: Edit

Into the Quagmire would be a more appropriate choice for a book parrellel to the current situation.

We better know why we are going to war this time. At least now people actually see a reson to fight, in Vietnam the reason was not appartent to the people of this country.

Thinking you can win a limited war was the fundemental flaw in the vietnam conflict. You have to attack the citizens. If they were not opposed to the US before the conflict they certianly were during and after it. The citizens, the culture, the people are the enemy, not some "army". The only successful wars are ones in which the people of and culture of the losing country were either irradicated or assimilated. The problem, is that no one is willing to commit such atrocities. And no one in the US is willing to "risk" further attacks.

The US sided not with the popularly supported government but instead with the remnents of the imperialist system. In this situation it was impossible to win the hearts and minds of the vietnemese, to win the war the US would have had to fully occupy the country, obviously the south vietnemese govt. might have had a problem with that, just as the Arab "allies" would have a problem with that if the US was forced to occupy Afganistan.

In any case the lesson is that before you start a war you better know what you are trying to do and also how you are going to WIN it. I cannont see a situation where the US could win a war with Afganistan. I believe it would be impossible, for the people in Afganistan would never support a government that could consider itself a friend of the US. The culture is far to different. Short of destroying that culture through either total destruction or prolonged occupation, victory is impossible.

Furthermore, has anyone considered why anyone would want to attack the United States? Why is it that women and childern in Palastine and Afganistan rejoice when they hear the US has been attacked. Why those in Lebanon and Syria burn American flags. Why is the US this demonic state to them? The reason is simple. The US is the single reason that the State of Isreal continues to exist. The powers of US (and implicently Jewish) finance were attacked as were the headquarters of the military complex that supports and arms the soliders of Isreal. I believe that if the US did not support the State of Isreal it would not be villified in parts of the Arab world.

I hope that before any action taken the US public is made aware of the complexities of the issue and can them make an informed decision.

Best wishes to all

By John on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:36 am: Edit

Why does blame thru out history always be placed on the Jewish State...What we have experienced Tues is a daily way of life in Israel...of course they deal with it on a daily basis and that may be our future model of dealing with terrorism. If I have a Middle East ally, it would be Israel as they know whats what, how to deal with it and can hold there own as recent history shows. We support Israel, we also supported Kuwati, we supported Lebanon,etc,etc. We have always supported many countries regardless of faith or beliefs. Our support has always been for humanity against agression. So its back to basics, do we get bullied or do we stand up for ourselves as well. The Statue of Liberty tells a big story and the Constitution speaks for that story. Do we pacify the unstable Muslums or do we continue our history of support for any country who has tried to stand alone...

By Daniel on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:40 am: Edit

Anonymous,
Please don't get the impression that I am going to protest the death of Afghani civilians. I joined the Army two days after the first F-15's took off in the Gulf War. As I recall it was a Wednesday night. That Friday I was in New Orleans having a physical. I was in high school and had been considering it anyway. I was fortunate that by the time I was through training, the war was essentially over.
One point that was made to us in basic training on the laws of war was that the Police won't shoot if they risk killing innocent bystanders, the Military will. Although it is NEVER intentional, innocent people/civilians do die. That's war.
And you are right, the citizens, culture and people are the enemy. Even more so in this case, because there is no identifiable army involved.

I was talking about security for American citizens. If this becomes a long drawn out conflict, security against this type of action in the U.S. must be paramount. In any case, steps must be taken the find and stop any other "cells". If we are not protected here, no action overseas can make up for it.

As far as winning a war with Afghanistan, if the current government, the Taliban, is knowingly harbouring the perpetrator of this atrocity, I can assure you they will not be in power at the end of all this. I am not familiar with all that is going on there. I do not know what the other faction that is opposing the Taliban is. These are things that I would be interested to know.
But I do know that if we do go into Afghanistan, it is not to prop up a weakened government like in Vietnam, but to retaliate against one.


Like you, I do hope the public (including myself) is made aware of the big picture. In Vietnam people did not know why we were there...They didn't even know we were there in force until there were 200,000 troops on the ground.

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:46 am: Edit

Not saying we should not support Isreal, just that the country should be aware of why the "enemy" attacked, to understand the root of the hatred is necessary to understand how to win any potential war or avert potential disasters.

Maybe instead of asking why Isreal is blamed we should ask why the US supports Isreal. Or for that matter why we support other countries. Not too long ago the US was aiding the government that it appears we may be near declaring war against (the US supported the Afgani rebels in the conflict with Russia).

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:49 am: Edit

Daniel,
"I do hope the public (including myself) is made aware of the big picture."

I am afraid this is one thing that only history will reveal. For truth, at a time like this, is often the first casualty.

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:55 am: Edit

Although it is NEVER intentional.

This attitude pretty much explains why the US will not "win" a war ever again. The people are the enemy. The people are the ones who view america as the great evil empire (to steal and twist a quote) The US has about as much chance to change the hearts and minds of the people of these countries as the US does of adopting fundemental Islam as the state religon.

"But I do know that if we do go into Afghanistan, it is not to prop up a weakened government like in Vietnam, but to retaliate against one."

So then who is going to be in charge? I am afraid you see the problem.

By John on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:01 am: Edit

Its too small a world with intertwined economies to isolate ourselves from the perils of other countries. A changing history changes the stance we take at particular times for those particular reasons. We happen to be a democracy strong enough for the rest of the world to rely on, so we have assumed that leadership role, we arent "buying it". That aspect of changing roles will always play into changing world crisis. At one time Russia was the threat to the US as well as other democrocies for their ideoligies, but it proved communism cant work in todays world. The warring of countries over religious beliefs and who's needs more land is an extension of the freshly born human who were cannibals a few centuries ago and are still evolving. The quest for power in certain ideoligies doesnt have room in todays world to continue to club thy neighbor. We simply cannot isolate or turn away from the crisis of the month in this world or the biggest club will be the leader of the month.

By Rich Lee on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:20 am: Edit

"Rich , it seems that the people on the planes were peacefull. What did that bring them? What did it bring others. I can tell you what it brought some of them because I was right there watching as the plane went into the pentagon. A little violence more then likely would have changed that.... It was proven in PA. If Ghandi had of been on one of those planes he would have gone down with the rest. That aint peace..."

Kyle,

Remember, I also said that peace can also be gained through elimination of violent people. Ghandi would not have done this on those planes, but Ueshiba would have, and would have disabled or killed all of them. Trouble is, he would not have been able to fly the plane.

Ghandi did manage to succeed against one of the most powerful governments of the time, without war or terrorism. It worked in that place and at that time. The worst byproduct of this is that there are almost no Land Rovers in India.

Milan,

"This ignorant stereotyping bigotry is something I would expect from the Jeep crowd. "

Isn't this just as ignorant and stereotypical????

No, it was just a bad joke. Until 2 days ago, the most dissed people from the Rover Community were Jeep owners, followed closely by environmentalists and democrats.

Gotta go now, My Hospital (Stanford) is being evacuated due to a bomb threat.

Best wishes to All of you.

PS. That was one of the few Dylan songs I really liked. Too bad his voice was so hard to listen to.

By Daniel on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:23 am: Edit

This is true. In the name of "national security", (and political agenda) we may never fully understand...

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:26 am: Edit

Yes Rich and as I said , through violence there would be peace. Take off the rose colored glasses. Thats how it is..

Kyle

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:26 am: Edit

"This is true. In the name of "national security", (and political agenda) we may never fully understand..."

Knowing this are you sure you want to go to war?

83% of the US just said they were.

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:33 am: Edit

Condit who?


-L

By John on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:36 am: Edit

Anonymous, are you a pacifist or pessimist?
I personally voted(democracy) for Cheny, Powell and Bush Sr. to have some credible credentials in the Whitehouse to be in charge of todays problems that is the 21st century. Political agendas and national security reasons are above my knowledge or level of being informed, but I believe in the USA and what our elected officials do is in my best interest long term. Gotta believe in something or my little spot here is for nothing.
All just personal opinions but pro America.

By William Turner (Wturner) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:39 am: Edit

"Until 2 days ago, the most dissed people from the Rover Community were Jeep owners, followed closely by environmentalists and democrats."

Well this discussion just passed the longest J**P bashing discussion with 144 entries, and has out numbered any tech discussion.

Who says we don't love our country?

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:47 am: Edit

Well those who know me usually call me a pessimist , after all I do drive rovers

(PC disclaimer: to drive a rover does not imply one is inherently pessimistic, but it does contribute to a pre-existing condition of pessimism)

Never been called a pacifist and that is not the sentiment I am trying to convey. Just that, for better or worse, the average american has no idea what the country might be getting into and that is a bad idea. Bottom line for me is that unless we are committed to total war we should not do anything. Personally I vote for total war if it matters how I feel.

By chuanchen on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:56 am: Edit

I think there are two major issues that america has to look into:

1. what is america going to do about herself and her role in the world community?
2. what is america going to do to those responsible?

These two definitely relate to each other, but for america, she has to think about these issues individually.

First of all, with no doubt, it is a good vs evil issue. it's all about justice and humanity. The good and justice will prevail.

What about the other one, the first item I listed above? Are we really thinking/believing that what america (the government) have done in the past some hundred years to the world/international community is all about justice and humanity, believes of freedom and democracy? we must wake up!!

The answer is definitely NO! Most of it is all about benefits!

Have we ever asked ourselves what we've done to the rest of the world in the past? How do other countries think what we are? The police of world? the police of the world? or a powerful monstreous one masked with justice and democracy?

I think this is the issue we really have to think this time!

chuanchen

By Daniel on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:57 am: Edit

Anonymous,
If it becomes a matter of win or loose, I believe the U.S. would take as drastic action as was necessary, civilian or not. Unfortunately, there is not as clear cut of an enemy or country as there was say in WWII.
Watch what happens. It just occured to me that the Afghan govnernment (assuming again) will cry about how "we promised to cooperate if you sent us your evidence...now you bomb us...we have no official ties...Bin Laden is a GUEST" and play the underdog role in order to garner the sympathy of other nations. The difference is, however, that they are involved in a bit more than throwing rocks.

Here is something I would like to know more about.
What is the story with the group opposing the Taliban now?
I don't know a whole lot about them. Who are them and do we want to have them in power?

By William Turner (Wturner) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:58 am: Edit

The word America gets a CAPITOL letter.

By chuanchen on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 10:59 am: Edit

Sorry. America!

chuanchen

By William Turner (Wturner) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:01 am: Edit

Anybody ever see those idiots that don't remove thier hats durring the National Anthem, at some public event.

They oughta get a swift kick in the ass!

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:16 am: Edit

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-01.htm#P181_37555

Daniel,
Read this for a brief primer on the subject. Although referencing one portion of an internet article to explain the history of a country is quite lacking.

No we don't want to support the United Front (which is really a western term for the opposition which is a loosely organized group of factions)

In any case the issue the US will have is the the Talibatan are supported by the Saudis and the Pakistanis who have been traditional US allies while the United Front is supported by Iran and the Russian.

Now what? But appartently no one cares as we are just ready for war. Both sides of the conflict are the enemy. Maybe they will unite if we attack the country. One way to end a civil war.

My pessimism (to quote John) I am afraid is based on history. America's optimism is, I am afraid, based on ignorance

By Anonymous on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 11:23 am: Edit

After reading the above summary do you see why it is such a big deal to have Pakistani support and why despite demands of the US people an actual war against the country which harbors the terrorists would be incredibly divisive to the middle east?

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Jesus , who gives two shits about "the whole middle east" It isnt like they pose some giant threat to us. All this talk about nam and the past conflicts we have been in hold no wieght here. In case anyone has forgotten those werent our wars. Sure we got all the bad press but we werent fighting for our way of life. Dont compare the two , its silly. You wanna compare , compare what happend to the last folks that stained our soil with our blood. Thats the measure of our resolve. history has already proven it.
As far as the middle east is concerned and the oil and the money and the blah blah blah , well if it came down to it we could just take the whole god damned thing and turn it into a summer resort with oil. Dont act like its such a big thing , it isnt. They are so far behind us technologically we could win that war before a US soldier hit the beach there. Will we do that? I seriously doubt it. Can we do that? Your god damned right we can!
As far as politics gos. Right now its politically healthy for every single person involved in this thing right now accept for the rags. They have already lost politically by what they allow to go on in thier countries. These moments are the only times when teh soldiers and the polititians have the same agenda. its like tumblers in a lock and those dumb bastards just lined em all up and let out the beast....

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Also something I forgot. If it comes down to innocent middle Easterns dying in a war that thier brothers started. Or your own women and children dying in thier own homes for something they have never even heard about. Which do you choose ? My choice is clear.

Kyle

By gn on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 02:36 pm: Edit

My dear folks, subjectivity may ruin our own sweet warn home.

Learn from the history, learn from others!!

gn

By Roverine on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 05:04 pm: Edit

I have been so sad and angry, but not at all surprised. It was only a matter of time, and I think that was a given no-brainer. I studied just about this EXACT same scenario many years ago in college (hate to admit it, a LONG time ago ...). It (possibly a WW3) was predicted to come about sometime around the year 2000 ... Kind of an insidious build up, and faction(s) in the middle east would be the catalyst. It has always stuck with me and makes my hair stand on end. My thoughts:
1) the first shoe has fallen
2) grab our asses cuz we're in it, and we better be prepared. Been a hell of a long time since our boys went to war to truly defend their own country. ( Talking about ground troops ... how soft have we become?) It's all or nothing. Hopefully, it won't be purely our ethnocentrism to carry us through.
3) Afganistan is an uncontrolable cess pool of snakes (and so are a few other areas over there - we're not going to change any ideology, just send them off to Allah a little sooner - their "holy" wars have been going on forever).
4) Now is the time to act with NATO. Hopefully, it is realized (Russia & China included) that this, too, can happen to them and will come back to bite them in the butt as well. (As far as Russia & China go, who knows how the heck they'll feel - not exactly big in the humanitarian area).
5) I hope to God we finally wake up as a nation, and band together and do whatever is neccessary to protect ourselves and each other.

Maybe I'm just simple minded. Makes me sad and mad and frightened. We WILL prevail. We have no other choice. My prayers go out to everyone.

Kim

By Roverine on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Oh, BTW: I may be frightened ... but not so much that I'm going to hunker down and cower ... freeze. By all means, keep on keeping on - Don't stop what you've been doing (well, we need to be a little more prudent, but ...) KEEP THE COMMERCE FLOWING, for heaven's sake ... This is how terrorism works - Fear is like a cancer ... it will just snowball. I've done my part ... went out and got sliders & both diff guards yesterday. I'm just saying, DON'T let these bastards win, by their ignorant calculation that they could stop our commerce as well. I won't go into heavy duty stock market analysis - the market will be fine given time - it WILL rebound and grow - history proves this out, and so does common sense. Take time, and get out and do what you love to do - be strong. Hold all of those that love you close, and hug them tight - Just don't let these bastards win with "the fear factor".

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:20 am: Edit

They are so far behind us technologically we could win that war before a US soldier hit the beach there.

Sure if we turn it into a nuclear wasteland. How many more fanatics do you think that will create elsewhere if we do that? Otherwise we will be fighting a determined enemy who has already defeated the other (former) major superpower and has been in a constent state of war for the the last 23 years. Short of a FULL occupation how do you plan to win? It is hard to kill everyone when the largest concentration you will see is a few dozen people in a tent in the middle of the desert or in a cave in a mountain.

By John on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:41 am: Edit

Anonomous, whats your plan?

Or thoughts on how do we handle this?

By Andrew on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:58 am: Edit

I am thinking it will be a 2 pronged approach. First prong - For showing the world and other would be terrorist that we will not stand for this, there should be a huge (beyond belief) convential bombing raid on Afganistan and Iraq and any other terrorist harboring country. Make sure it is on TV.

Second prong, send in Special Operations Forces (SEALs, RECON, Delta Force, Rangers) all over the world and take out all known terrorist cells. Make it very grusome so it will instill the fear of god in them. Hit them in there homes, when they are sleeping, at coffee shops, in broad daylight, where ever. Scare them so bad that they will never even think to rise up against the USA again. There will be casualities but the time has come to take care of this scum of the earth. And just when they think it is over, send in Special Operations again and again and again.
Special Operations is ready.

Hopefully prong 2 is already underway.

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:06 am: Edit

Option 1:

Systamatically kill off those responsible and leave it at that. Who is "those responsible"? Certainly anyone with direct involvement and possibly extending to the direct faction which supports them.

Anything more will make the total US death toll many time the losses in NY and DC, both in military and civilian losses. The only other option would be to erradicate fundematal islam from the face of the earth. Personally I would advocate the latter but I believe it to be first impractical and second morally reprehensible to the majority of the US population, not to mention the ire it would bring upon the US in the form of more attacks and condemnation from Arab "allies".

It is simply an impossibility to protect fully against terrorism. Isreal is a perfect example. However, Isreal model is the one the US should adopt. No negotiations and every citizen should be willing to fight and die rather than cooperate with captors and every citizen knows that the government of Isreal will do everything it can forcibly end the incident.

It would also help if there became more public awareness about what the US government does and has done in the past to support groups which are now enemies of America. It also would not hurt to have an informed policy on the middle east.

The problem with a "war on terrorists" is that the terrorists will fight back

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:43 am: Edit

I think the first thing we need to do is get rid of the rest of the terrorist that are still in the US before we go and worry about getting the ones on foreign soil. Hell, they just had some people yesterday posing as pilots trying to get onboard some more planes. By no way is this over yet. I think that they are still going to try and get the places they missed and even a couple more before we find out (if we find out) who the rest of them are and where they are. The biggest issue is all the bomb threats that are happening now are going to cause the police and such to spread thin chasing them all down and some terrorist might slip through again. I think that it is going to be a long time before this even gets close to being resolved.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:16 am: Edit

Anonomous , we have an airforce that is second to none. We also have enough cruise missiles to turn half of the earth into a crater. I am gainst the use of nukes and dont think we need them. Perhaps you all are just not completely understanding the capability your country has. Sure there are small pods of people out there living in tents but if you remove everything around them thats all they are , tent people. Not very hard to mop them up with chopper raids after the skies are secure. Again , I am just stating capability. What was shown in the gulf war was nothing in comparison to what we are truely capable of if the stops are removed. We were discriminative in our targeting. Imagine what would happen if that went away and any building or car or person was a target. Changes the game a bit doesnt it? Makes things much easier on us. You have to keep in mind that more then half the leverage they have on us is that we are predictable and wont do that. Anything that becomes preditable becomes an easy target.

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:55 am: Edit

"I am just stating capability"

You are obviously not informed about America's military capabilities. We do not have enough cruise missles to turn the world into a crater. It is much to expensive and inefficent to do so assuming we could even get them into place around afganistan to use them as the single or primary weapon. The cruise was designed for targets either too dangerous for planes or for use as a first strike. They are also extraordinarily expensive for their effectiveness. To use a couple to attack "party headquarters" would be prudent, to think a "war" can be fought using them is irrational. It is also very hard to destroy "tent people" with F16s etc. Sort of like killing an ant by throwing bowling balls at it. Chopper raids! Ask the USSR how their Hind Gunships did against the Mujahadin during their war. Lot of carcases of those gunships littered about. In fact by the end of the war the Russians stopped sending in the Hinds as their loss was considered to great (why you ask, well it seems the Afgans had gotton a hold of a lot of US made stinger anti aircraft missles) Sending ground troops and helicopters to fight an enemy where pretty much every man and boy has an AK 47 that has been fighting ground troops and helicopoters since 1979 does not sound to wise to me.

Fine, turn every car person and building into a target. Have you seen Kabul? Not too many buildings left. So you blow up everything you see. Still has not changed much for the Afgans. Then what send troops in? Are we going to occupy the country for a decade? Who would we install in power? The united front (aka northern alliance) who are supported by Iran and Russia? They are perhaps even worse than Taliban (who the US, Saudis and Pakistanis support(ed)). Like I said there is no one in Afganistan who could be considered a potential ally of the US.

All I am asking is for the public to consider the situation rationally and to understand what is going on. Don't believe me? Do some reseach about Afganistan. Read some history books.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 06:33 am: Edit

You are still thinking within "The box" . Dont tell me about the cruise and what it costs and how many there are. My aunt writes the checks that buys the shit that makes them , along with the carriers and other ships the navy uses. There is a serious surplus. Yes they are for targeting majior targets. Thats my point. Start thinking about the ordinance that can be delivered from the air and from ships and how much of it we have.Each has a purpose. Lay those purposes out for us anonnomous. You will quickly see there isnt much left after you have explored all your options from the air and the sea. Expensive? Yeah , its damn expensive. How much will that region cost us over years and years of maintaining it? If you read my post I said "Crippled" before an american soldier hit the beach. We are quite capable of doing that. There are also workers working day in and day out building the parts that make this ordinance. They do it in peace time as well as in war time. They do it less then 200 yards from my house.
Also , in my scenario we arent talking about "occupation" as we know it. I am talking about just taking the damn real estate and driving a flag in the ground there. Messy ? I have no doubt it would be. but how messy is it having to go over there time and time again to maintain the region? How many will die in the years to come just to keep that place stable? How many will die here because its silly to think you can keep it stable? They are a self proclaimed enemy of the US. Politics has protected them thus far. Its silly to let it go on. And its silly not to show them that we arent predictable and weak. its smart however to show them just how easy it is for the US alone to change thier whole landscape and way of life forever. You change peoples course by taking away options..

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:13 am: Edit

"If you read my post I said "Crippled" before an
american soldier hit the beach. We are quite capable of doing that."

First of all, there is no beach to hit, which means your choices are going through Pakistan, Iran or some former soviet republics. And don't give me any crap about an airborne invasion being an easy task, it is not. Try flying C5 galaxys and C141s over territory where there are substantially anti aircraft weapons in place.

Sure pakistan might let the US pass through but I doubt it would be a happy situation.

How do you cripple an armed nation from the air? They will dig themselves into the mountains just as the Japanese did during world war II. And don't give me any crap about superior firepower. It is impossible to level the whole country and you won't be able to see any "targets." Sure we will blow up some buildings and there will be some nice pictures of some trucks in the crosshairs but when you are done you will still need to subdue several million arms Mujahadeen who have proven themselves willing to fight a prolonged battle.

And this is assuming you can limit the conflict to Afghanistan. Those "former soviet repuplics" are not the most stable places either. And what about Iran?

Finally you assume that a US invasion will make the situation better in the long run. I fear the opposite to be true.

Lay those purposes out for us anonnomous.

Ok,

Lets start with the obvious. You have to fire those cruise missles and navy bombardments OVER pakistani territory. Sure they might let our planes fly from there but do you think they will be happy about missles and 5in guns being shot overhead (remember the majority of ships have limited gun batteries).

Now we can break it down into two catagories:

Smart weapons: Costly, good a specific targets but generally ineffective in large scale operations

Dumb weapons: less costly, good for destroying concentrations of targets

The problem is that beyond a few limited smart weapons use does not apply. Blowing up a car with a multi million dollar missle is not ideal

Second mass bombing is generally ineffective against a dispersed enenmy which is what we would be facing.

The list of US weapons was designed to face a technologially advanced foe, they don't work to well against your average freedom fighter with a AK.

To win a ground war you need infantry.

So you either turn it into a chemical/biological/nuclear wasteland and tick off pakistan to no end or you send in ground troops which will lead to high casualties, or you do basically nothing.

My conclusion is that the US knows this and aside from limited targeted air strikes and a quite consorted attempt to infiltrate and eliminate terrorists with limited raids (remember Carter and the Iranian hostages) the US will not go to war.

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:15 am: Edit

Anonymous,

I agree with you to a certain extent; You're right about Afganistan - not only did we GIVE them the guns, and antiaircraft hand held missiles, but we also trained them. Yes, WE trained bin Ladin during that time. He was 'great buddies' with our special forces. Then (predictably, IMO) he turned on us. Same thing could/would just keep going round and round with many others ... it's an endless loop.

To bomb every country that has harbored these terrorists: OK, then supposedly, beside the obvious ones, we are talking about Egypt, Turkey, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Balkins, the list goes on and on. Many have been looking the other way for a long time. In our duplicity, we have harbored a few. It all comes down to intelligence and getting these countries to cooperate with us. How to do that ....

IMO, as far as Russia & China go, they look at this for whatever they can gain for themselves and no other reason. (as if we don't either, but we are more civilized and democratic after all). We all want the oil. Like I said, the Middle East is the catalyst. Yes, I agree the public (and not ours alone) needs to be educated a little more, but let's get real. How do we do that? In a perfect world I would love to see this and lots of other neat things.

Still, I am not so pessimistic. I do believe we can rise to the challenge.

Kim

By mongo on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:21 am: Edit

I don't understand why it has to be debated about how to deal with this. I think (and hopefully our leaders) will use everything short of nukes to eliminate the ENEMY. I said it before, should we worry about the people associated with these murders, NO. You can not tell me that anyone invovled, let it governments,political groups or individuals, has any remorse for the americans that lost thier lives to this sensless act of war.
So as we plan our response, let those who chose to assoiciate themselves with these assholes, pay the concequenceses, also. We have got to stop worring about political correctness and defend our counrty, our rights and our belief's. We are the land of the free and I will help defend that to no end, I hope others feel the same, I will stand behind what we chose as a nation, and I hope it sends a message to rest of the world...

Frank

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:24 am: Edit

"Yes, I agree the public (and not ours alone) needs to be educated a little more, but let's get real. How do we do that?"

Everyone who has read this knows a bit more than they did before. Enough people know and talk about it then it becomes a media issue, then it becomes a national political issue. Then things might get done. I am sure this will eventually be widespread public knowledge. Lots of things will change but in the end it will be pretty much the same, which I think is a good thing.

Also please forgive my ananimity

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:27 am: Edit

Roverine asked, "how soft have we become?"

...go ask Bill Clinton...heard he was in NYC gettin some press...

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:33 am: Edit

Here we go about pakistan , I have said it before , who here gives two shits about pakistan? Worryin too much about the opinions of others is a good part of the reason we are having this talk today.
Give me your take on it anonomous ? You an old army guy or marine? One thing I always see is the Army and marines saying that nothing can be done until someone hits the ground there. This is untrue. I understand the logic behind it and it is needed at some point. But todays technology has pushed the time for that need way back. No an AMRAM wont lock in on a tent , niether will a HARM misile. But they will remove majior threats to us. Each is designed to remove certain threats. Cluster bombs also make quite a mess and dont really care if its been dropped on tents or multimillion dollar buildings. You broke down our munitions way too fast. We have a freaking piece of ordinance for all occasions these days. WHy were they built? THey were built to lessen the threat posed against us in every concievable way. I am not arguing with you that a ground war isnt needed in the end. What I am arguing is that by the time there is a real need for that, the threat has been reduced signifigantly.
I am also arguing the fact that we should remain so god damn proper. It hasnt taken us very far where the middle east is concerned .
Give me your scenario Anonomous , lay it out for me... Also , dont compare then to now and past conflicts by others and other presidents in another time. Talk about the here and now , times have changed...

Kyle

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:45 am: Edit

Better yet , explain to the folks what a non stop strategic 48 hour session of carpet bombing from all available B-52s we have on hand would deliver to Afganistan? That alone....and thats pot luck with one type of ordinance and one type of plane. They would need some air support ofcourse but thats it. What kind of devistation could that potentially deliver?


Kyle

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:53 am: Edit

Sorry but, I thought that this was a good picture.

By jim on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:57 am: Edit

I don't know if any of you have read this yet but this was one of the best articles I have read thus far and I would proudly stand next to them today

http://slate.msn.com/diary/01-09-10/diary.asp?Show=9/13/2001

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:57 am: Edit

"who here gives two shits about pakistan?"

They have A bombs. That tends to make me give a shit or two.

Tell me what "ordinance" is designed to counter the AK 47? The M-16. Simple as that. You cannot occupy or control a country without people on the ground. Thats not army/marine BS its the truth. Those who have thought otherwise have failed.

I will be back in a bit to answer further as far as a senario

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:09 am: Edit

Right on, Blue (good one about how soft we have become), Kyle, anonymous, and the rest. Let's keep focused here: We have been attacked in the most cowardly and gruesome way. Those bastards killed thousands of innocent civilians and will continue to do so NO MATTER WHAT. This is now our reality. Get NATO in gear, and it's time to kick some ass NOW. If we piss off a few other nations, so be it. As long as we have instilled the fear of God/Allah/whoever into anyone who wonders what happens when they screw with us. I have been sickened by the wimpy way in which our military and foreign policy has been handled in the past, and the scum of politics in all of this. It's time to take off the gloves, and do it (and run any of the weak/corrupt politicians out of town while we're at it). We will protect ourselves.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:20 am: Edit

Kim , the reason I urge for such force is that we rarely get the oportunity to actually work them over in the middle east. As I said earler , this is a prime time do make clear what you are capable of and just how far you are willing to go. we have the backing of the world right now and that wont be there forever. Soldiers and politicians rarely have the same agenda , but for this brief period they do. We should make that work for our benifit and get some real change..

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:20 am: Edit

"Two days of B52s? What kind of devistation could that potentially deliver?"

well how many do we have "on hand" Have to go check but all but the H models have been retired. Think we had about 44 of them on active, 82 in the air national gaurd and handfull in reserves.

Well you could level the "cities" if you wanted make them slightly more burned out hulks than they are now. Might kill a lot of people, might not, mainly depends on ordinance. Incendiaries might work well enough but I am not familiar enough with constuction materials in Afghanistan to know. High explosives are good mainly at destoying buildings and such, not anti personel. You could use the cluster bombs, that would work, but to really up the death toll you will have to set the place on fire. Get a big enough fire storm all the O2 burns up and NOBODY makes it. Odds are most of the cities would be deserted, everyone heads for the hills. besides who are you trying to get? Those same camps out in the desert, tough to see even from the satalites, let alone find where they are from the air. Bet a lot of desert would be full of holes but not to much damage.

remember it took months to "soften up" the iraqis. A B52 raid won't do crap fundemetally. Make everyone feel better for sure.

By jim on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:21 am: Edit

That is why I posted that link. Our military is strong and they have the will and attitude to prove that we are strong and not afraid.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:30 am: Edit

Um , it will do quite allot , true you cant bomb a civilization back to the stone age when they are already living in it. The point I am trying to make is that we are talking about one sort of plane here carrying one sort of weapon. That is nothing compared to what we have and it would completely detroy the majiority of that city and the morale of many. Yes it would scatter the population to the wind But we aint talking a small amount of people. You could continue to steer the bombers to the more populated ares of sand and in the end you will have reduced your threat signifigantly , with just one type of plane and one type of weapon. Now include the other shit we have along with that (A-10s with the cluster , A-6 with all kinds of good shit) and you have (As I stated earier) crippled the place.
That is our capability should we want to carry it out. DO I think thats what should be done? Naaa , I think its a bit much. Do I think we should clearly comunicate to them how possible it is? Yeah , your damn right I do.. in a way that says "BOOM" its the language that they hear best..

Kyle

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:46 am: Edit

Anon , correct me if I am wrong here. We have a familly friend that actually survived a strike in Vietnam during rolling thunder. From what I can gather one single B-52 loaded right can kill every living thing in a strip about a mile long and 1/4 mile wide. That sound about right to you? When you multiply that by the amount of planes we have on hand right now and you think about that running non stop for a 48 hour period you get some pretty ugly numbers. From hearing this guys stories of it over the years I cant think of much that could be worse. That kinda shit shatters will... Again , I am not saying to fight a whole war with the B-52 , I am just pointing out one single weapon we have and its capability.

Kyle

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:47 am: Edit

You hit the nail on the head, Kyle. And I agree, now is the time while we can.

We can bet our bottom dollar that if we don't acheive some serious respect here (in one form or another - be it fear, admiration, or hate) that this will escalate anyway and Russia & China will be meddling as they have all along. These "3rd world" nations now have nuclear capability to some extent. (old fart reminiscing, but another thing that was predicted when I studied in college - by the year 2000 approximately up to 20 former 3rd world nations would have nuclear capability). Let's not kid ourselves. It's time to GO.

Kim

By Ron L on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:06 am: Edit

...."We do not have enough cruise missiles to turn the world into a crater."


Anonymous, Wake up...We have more than you could possibly imagine. You remember the Stealth Fighter? According to our Government we only had one to possibly three. I got news for you even though the budget cuts could not capacitate the cost of even one, somehow the our beloved Government managed to produce 15 that CONTROLLED the air strikes in Desert Storm. Fortunately for US American Citizens, we have a government that we can count on to make the right decisions and make them quickly.

Your solution of fighting a racial and religious war is bogus. The reason for US support of Israel is because what we all saw happen, happens on a DAILY basis in Israel. If you think for a moment that this is the only solution, you’re dead wrong. The terrorist network is its own community its own state, this is what we need to focus on, eliminating those who control and those who support is the only way to fight this war. Those who pose a threat will pay the price as they have been historically. The magnitude of the attack here in the United States will never compare to a bombing of an embassy or a car bombing in a heavily populated area in Israel. The fact is for the terrorist the message is the same.... weather the final tally is 18 people or 18,000 people, the message (for the terrorist) is still the same! Weather the act happens in our back yard or in another country; the message is still the same.

I heard a Palestinian woman on the radio this morning begging the US not to judge her by her creed, or religion. She feels threatened by her race, the country she is from, her own religion... when asked her opinion on what’s going on with the celebrations in her country, she mentioned that what we saw was the GAZA territory, and that this was NOT the feeling of all the people.... Then the Radio Host asked her how she felt about what’s going on with the Palestinians and Israelis.... There was dead silence.... This person who is now living in fear could not defend her own judgment. Hypocrisy Sucks, especially when what you believe in is OK as long as you are nowhere near it.

If we as Americans historically send out a message to kill all related because of religion, color, creed, and location.... Its OK they are all the same. Than we as a world will have problems. YOU will have to worry about the NATIVE Indian... (the Turks and Armenians, the Jews and the Germans, and so on and so on).

I have complete and total confidence in my country, in my people, in my government. This is why I live here, this is why I will raise a family here, and this is why I will die here. Nothing compares to the freedom and security in America. This is why I am proud to be an American. I spent part of my Childhood growing up in Israel, I remember what it was like to build a sand castle on the beach, while Israeli Jets were chasing/fighting Egyptian jets overhead. I will never forget having to run down to bomb shelters as bombs fell through the night. I will never forget having to visit my Grandmother in the hospital after she and many others fell victim to a suicide bomber in Jerusalem. BORN AMERICAN….. I WILL NEVER FORGET THE DAY AMERICA TOOK A STAND TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY OF MY ROOTS, MY HERITAGE, MY RELIGION, MY BLOOD.

That’s the beauty of this sacred and power-full nation. That’s the beauty of being a part of it. Appreciate it, draw your conclusions, your in America, you are free to be ignorant, free to be stupid, free to say what ever you want. And we are free to read it, free to judge it, free to criticize it, and free to respond to it or free to ignore it.

Those who have done will get what they deserve. Unfortunately to at an unprecedented level of our expense, this message has woken the world to realize the severity of this problem. The World WILL come together to target this problem. The best part about this, America will lead the world in targeting this problem and eliminating it. As a World Leader it makes me even MORE proud (if that’s possible) to be an AMERICAN.

God Bless Us All…

Ron L.

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:13 am: Edit

"Two days of B52s? What kind of devistation could that potentially deliver?"

well how many do we have "on hand" Have to go check but all but the H models have been retired. Think we had about 44 of them on active, 82 in the air national gaurd and handfull in reserves.

Well you could level the "cities" if you wanted make them slightly more burned out hulks than they are now. Might kill a lot of people, might not, mainly depends on ordinance. Incendiaries might work well enough but I am not familiar enough with constuction materials in Afghanistan to know. High explosives are good mainly at destoying buildings and such, not anti personel. You could use the cluster bombs, that would work, but to really up the death toll you will have to set the place on fire. Get a big enough fire storm all the O2 burns up and NOBODY makes it. Odds are most of the cities would be deserted, everyone heads for the hills. besides who are you trying to get? Those same camps out in the desert, tough to see even from the satalites, let alone find where they are from the air. Bet a lot of desert would be full of holes but not to much damage.

remember it took months to "soften up" the iraqis. A B52 raid won't do crap fundemetally. Make everyone feel better for sure.

By KJ on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:37 am: Edit

Eric,

That's a wonderful photo collage, thanks.

I'm glad to see people here so passionate, even if I disagree with some of the views expressed. I'm doing what I said before, I'm taking care of my little part of the world. I've been terribly distressed at the lack of dialog that has been going on with some of our children. I teach kids from many schools in my area, and have been talking with them all week about how things are being handled in the schools, as well as at home, and generally about how they are feeling. Too often this tragedy is not being discussed, and in the case of one local High School, there was a virtual lockdown on information, to the point of banning any discussion. This, of COURSE, led to wild rumors being traded in the lunch room. I had one elementary aged student come unglued in my barn yesterday when she heard a plane overhead. She rushed up to me asking what kind of plane it was. I assured her she was safe, that it was a military plane flying overhead for our safety. Her father, a really nice man, had not had any conversation with her at all, though he was discussiing the tragedy in the aisle way later with another adult. We HAVE to reassure and enlighten our kids about these events! They can take it, but they NEED to know the truth as far as we can recount it so far. Facing this horror head-on and right NOW is the only way. I can't tell you how exhausted I am handling the emotions of scores of people here this week, both kids and adults. Sadly, it appears that too often this has been the only place they have had to express themselves, vent their frustrations, give voice to their fears. There is no need to belabor or overly detail these conversations, but once the steam has been let, I find they are ready to move on. It feels a LOT more healthy than stuffing it and looking at the lump under the covers and wondering if it's the Boogeyman.

Karen

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 09:52 am: Edit

I didn't make the picture it was emailed to me as I'm sure it was to many people today. Just thought that I would post it as it was one of the better ones that I have gotten today.

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:05 am: Edit

How did a post that twice?

Anyway

4 planes per square mile 44 planes on active

11 square miles x 2 raids.

22 square miles. woo hoo. You have now destoryed less than one tiny spec of Afganistan.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:19 am: Edit

Dont know whats up with that double posting , freaky shit there.
Now , narrow that Anon and stop making it sound broad. 22 square miles of populated area is pretty fucking harsh. You wouldnt send them over barron sand but rather food and water sources. Power sources. And population. Taking that into consideration what would that do the the Afgans? So you saying just that one little weapon there is no deterent at all? No crippling there? That was also just two strikes each. I am talking 48 hours non stop. And I have no doubt we can muster more then 44 BUFFs....

Kyle

By Erik Olson (Jon) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 10:56 am: Edit

"...this is not [to be] a clash of civilizations — the Muslim world versus the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish worlds. The real clash today is actually not between civilizations, but within them — between those Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews with a modern and progressive outlook and those with a medieval one."

-Israel's foreign minister, Shimon Peres

This is a time to come together as Americans, not rip each other apart based on ethnicity and religious denomination. I fear that as we move forward leading the world community effort to eliminate terrorist cells, we will be tested in our patience and resolve. Who is that man on the corner? Do I really know my neighbor? In millions and millions of instances, yes, you do. The enemy within is the cost of freedom, and we will have to do something about the open nature of our country moving forward. This is not a job for me, or the big guy in his Ford truck - it is the terrible daunting task for our government.

I well up with anger and sorrow when I look in the face of a child pleading for the return of their mother or father on national television, but must temper my rage with the thoughts of my own 3-year old child at home with another on the way.

Now is the time for a measured and calculated world-wide effort, unclouded by, but motivated by our shock, pain and hatred for those who did this evil to the World's civilized citizens. "Glassing over" a country and the myriad innocents who call it home will only bring us more pain as we "reap what we sow". We learned a painful lesson that our friends and allies have known for years - we cannot, in the modern age guarantee our own safety.

The unfortunate reality may be that we are unable to nurse our pain with vengeance, but subsist only on a slow, accurate political path towards resolution of the terrorist threat.

As always, the intellegent friends here at Discoweb keep the conversation going!

God bless us all.

Erik

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:08 am: Edit

Erik , what you just described is the current system that is in place. It obviously isnt working all that damn well. Can we guarantee our own safety? Yeah , I think we can. Just cant be too lazy or too scared of opinion to do so. The polititians want the support of the whole world because they are polititians. The ones lending their support are polititians as well. We cant trust our own , what makes you soo quick to trust them and what they say? Right now they are saying they have no idea what happened and where it came from. You buying that? All the world leaders will denounce the act because of politics and how they will look if they step out of line. Meanwhile they are saying something entirely different behind our backs and off camera.
The guys you are looking for are hidden in and amongst many "Innocent" people I have no doubt. To kill them is to kill innocents. I ask again , would you rather innocents die there or innocents die here? Or perhaps do nothing because you may kill some innocents there to achieve your goal.If given that choice what do you vote for Erik? Your children ? Or theirs ?

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:30 am: Edit

Kyle,

We have 44 B 52 on active. Fact. Ok say we send the 82 more we have in the A.N.G. 48 hours you can run 2 raids each. Maybe if you can get them set up local you can do 4. Do the math. Fly from where ever you are based (Cyprus, Spain, France and back and refuel and reload). You want to know how many cruise missles we have, how many F16s I can tell you all that too.

You think the afghanis have power like we do? Sure you can knock out the one or two plants, but most of the country is run on generators if they have any power at all. Population centers maybe. But first it will be clear what we are doing (it is not collateral damage when it is the target) and too. Woo hoo. You have now taken out a tiny fraction of the population and made the rest really mad.

Water sources? You planning on blowing up a lake? Or are you planning on blowing up a convoy of women with buckets on their heads. And exactly how much detriment would anniliating 22 square miles of farm land do?

Seriously, get it strait. What you consider crippling is nothing more the a nuisense and couse for more revenge.

Ron L.

I appreciate your view point and agree with many portions of it but I am afraid you suffer from chonic idealism.

"The reason for US support of Israel is because what we all saw happen, happens on a DAILY basis in Israel"

The US supports Isreal for a variety of reasons mainly based on self interest and the lobbying effects of the Jewish american population.

You give the example of the Native American Indian . Well the US "fought" the indians once. Not too many native americans left are there. And those that are left have pretty well been assimilated into the culture. Aside from a protest or two they a a non-factor. No terrorist threats, no continuing war. They were beaten and totally destroyed. It is a very sad thing, but it is true. Many of my good friends are native americans, but they have lost almost all of their culture and have adopted ours and our main religion, so therefore they are no threat.

Compare that to the Maori or some of the native populations of Mexico or other nations especially in Asia. War, conflict, attacks, random crime.

You either assimilate or exterminate your enemy, it is the only way to win. Sad, yes. Horrible, yes. Unspeakablely true, yes.

I am proud to be an American. I know we are the greatest country in the world. I also know that americans look at the world through the most rose colored glasses. To paraphrase: Americans are outraged when one child falls down a well.

The terrorist knew this which is why they were able to hurt us by killing 5000. A lot of places in the world 5000 people dead is not even noteworthy, and from history's perspective 5000 people is not even a blip on the radar screen. It is so terrible in the US because death is no longer a fact of life. The reduction in crime, the reduction in disease all have contributed to a feeling of safety and that is what the terrorist have tried to take away. If we constict our freedom and live in fear as it appears we will they will have won. They don't hope to destroy us they only hope to destroy our way of life. I fear that they may succeed, as I see men being forced to throw out disposable razor before getting on planes and hear that they are closing regean national because it is too close to DC, and because I saw everyone run home when the planes hit.

All I can say is keep yourself informed and speak up if you feel you have something to say

By Ron on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:39 am: Edit

"Yeah , I think we can gaurantee safety."

A guy who lived about 10 miles from where I grew up would strongly disagree. He is dead now. Did he die in the bombing? No. His name was Tim. He killed 168 people. He did it with some stuff you could buy at the average tractor supply company. I am afraid we will see more of this kind of shit before we have any chance of putting an end to it.

Kyle,

Safety is an illusion man. We are all at risk. Only protection is odds.

Ron

Whats with Anonymous? He is so pessismistic.

By Daniel on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:43 am: Edit

I would like to know who Anonomous is.
You can keep your name to yourself, but what exactly is your experience?
You have made some statements I agree with, and seem confident in your assesment of current U.S. military capability.
So where do you get your information from?
I think what you are trying (at least part of it) to say is that we cannot afford to be arrogant. With arrogance comes carelessness. That much I think we agree on.
We cannot risk the use of any nuclear weapon in the Middle East or even worse, here on our soil.

We know there are countries that are semi-friendly to these guys who have nuclear capability. We have to figure that Bin Laden could have acquired one of these weapons.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:44 am: Edit

Anon , you stray again.Go back to my original statement. The one you argued with. I took a little tiny slice out of our arsenal and we talked about what it could do. Its just a tiny slice of what we are capable of. You know that as well.
Now if you completely unleash on that country with every option you have air and sea. What do you get? Yes if they are around the water kill em. Infact , run regular bombing runs along the banks turning the water to syrup. That is what we are capable of. Very capable. Thier food is much easier to cut off.
Again , this is just stating what we are capable of.
You also may be able to tell me what a certain branch has on hand (I doubt you know that much , I dont think anyone does) but you certainly are unable to tell us what every branch has laying around. I can find out an estimate of what the Navy has and it would be just that , an estimate.
Heavy bombing runs will spread the people to the wind . If they have been devided then they have been weakened. Now , Didnt I say completely cripple before we set foot on that soil? Isnt that the statement I made? Its accurate , even if you dont want to agree. You brought up the gulf war. Isnt that what happened there? We restrained there and even in that war they had no more will left to fight. They were in every sense crippled.

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:47 am: Edit

WE FINALLY BROKE 200!!!!

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:48 am: Edit

Yes Ron , I agree with that. I was speaking about offshore threats from the people who make them selves very visible and their intentions clear. They open their mouth on the TV somewhere. Kill em , kill em and blow up the station that broadcast it. That race has been trained to hate us. The best we can hope for is to train them to fear us...

Kyle

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:49 am: Edit

Yes , we got some posts here in this thread....

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:56 am: Edit

If they have been devided then they have been weakened. Now , Didnt I say completely cripple before we set foot on that soil?

You just don't get it!!!! How can I explain? It ain't like Iraq or Germany or some unified country. Afghanistan is basically a loose groupings of warlords who control their own armies. They are divided to begin with. There is no cohesion to break up. You will bomb the shit out of everything and then you will go in to "mop up" and you will find millions of people with armed with assult rifles hiding in the hills in the villages. How do you know if the guy over there is a farmer or a solider? Odds are he is probably both.

Daniel,

I wish to remain Anon. so that my views will not be held against me (not that my views are bad per se) Where do I get my info? Its ALL public. Check Janes. Better yet type what you want to know into a search engine. I do have a degree in this but I am mostly self taught (stigma and all )

In Iraq you had an enemy that was structured based on the western/USSR model that had very low willingness to fight. Thats why we were able to defeat them to make a long story short. And lets also not forget Sadamm is still in power.

PS you can get a pretty good picture of what the US has in all the branches if you look in the right place, great thing about being a free country.

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 12:21 pm: Edit

>"Where do I get my info? Its ALL public. Check Janes. Better yet type what you want to know into a search engine.

PS you can get a pretty good picture of what the US has in all the branches if you look in the right place, great thing about being a free country."


all that glitters is not gold

all that is public is not true

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:23 pm: Edit

BINGO!!!

Kim

By hillary on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Thank god we're not really relying on that moron GW to deal with our problem . Previously GW's complete foreign policy was Mexico - US relations . Clinton was + is 10 x the leader this idiot is . The only thing GW knows is that he is too dim-witted to make any decisions for himself . Having said that, I do support any decision this puppet regurgitates . And this is a time for intelligence and clarity not "nuke em all let god sort em out" mentality . At least GW is not acting like the red neck that he is , except for a psalm here and there .

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Read the following - Came in today on an electrnic news pub - nice to see even terrorists states aren't immune ....

The Taliban may have banned Internet use in Afghanistan, but they still
have a web site - and it's powered by Win2K and Internet Information
Server, which is obviously not Microsoft's fault. The site, Taleban.com, is
registered to the Taleban Mission to the United Nations (the Taliban spells
its name with an "e"), which operates out of an office at 55-16 Main Street
in Flushing, New York according to its InterNIC registration papers. The
web site is hosted in Atlanta by Interland, which was acquired by Micron
Electronics on August 6 for $130 million in stock. (We'll bet a million
DRAMs that Micron didn't know it was taking over the Taliban web site.)
What, if anything, may have been on the site was destroyed early this week
by a Russian hacker going by the name of RyDen, who claims to be with
something called the Alfa_X Research Group. Whatever content was there was
replaced with a "wanted" poster of Osama bin Laden and a reminder that
there's a $5 million bounty on his head.

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Jesus Christ , dont get me started on Clinton . He would be trying to cop a BJ from one of Bin Ladens bitches.Its a known fact that Clinton had a chance to rid the world of Bin Laden and he took a pass. Dont bring his dumb ass into this.

Kyle

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit

And Kim , please say it aint so!! You mean all public info is not accurate?? sonofabitch the next thing we know there will be presidential cover ups!!


Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:48 pm: Edit

"If it comes down to innocent middle Easterns dying in a war that thier brothers started. Or your own women and children dying in thier own homes for something they have never even heard about. Which do you choose ? My choice is clear. "

"I ask again , would you rather innocents die there or innocents die here? Or perhaps do nothing because you may kill some innocents there to achieve your goal.If given that choice what do you vote for Erik? Your children ? Or theirs ? "

This kind of thought is the reason why so many people in the world hate America! If we don't want to see any more innocents get killed here in our own backyard, we'd better get this kind of idea out of our brains!

That's what exactly those terrorists have in their minds!! What selfish it is!!

The power of our country makes us selfish; our selfishness makes us self-centered; Our self-centered-ness makes us think we are the only justice in the world. And, but, this--self-centered-ness will make us disappear from the world, eventually! We probably won't see it happening, but our sons/daughters, or grandsons/grandaughters will witness!!

Think about it, my greatest Americans!!

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Anon buddy, have you been drinking???

Kim

By Kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Yeah , that makes sense . Maybe we should do nothing and send some love letters over to the east. Maybe that will stop it. You call us selfish when we have bailed damn near every country on the planet out of some shit at one time or another? Are you freaking insane? Fact is , the opressor is always getting pissed off at us cause we bailed out the victim and broke a little something off in their ass in the process. Yes that makes us many enemies. These enemies cant stand up on the field of battle and take us on toe to toe so they sneak around and target specifically civilians. Man , shut the hell up , you make me sick. Selfish? My god damn tax money goes to support people in countries I have never even heard of and you call us selfish? Other countries have debt with us that they have never paid and never will. That makes us selfish ? Maybe you need to stop typing and start reading... God damn that was the dumbest post I have read yet...If you are in the US perhaps you should move to a country that is more giving,,,,,if you can find one...

Kyle

By Kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Kim , you can see the broken english there. That should tell you something. The post also stinks of ignorance...


Kyle

By monica on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Clinton didn't have this kind of undivided support . Your boy Reagan trained that terrorist bastard bin laden not to mention trading arms with Iran . George Sr. let Sadam off the hook . Clinton could motivate people GW can barely pronounce a word with more than one vowel . He does however quote from the bible that should make you happy .

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:04 pm: Edit

WTF Hillary.... Clinton was and still is a POS. Please, Bush might not be the smartest president we ever had but, he is a f@$k of a lot better then "come visit me in the oval office so I can cream on your face" Clinton was. F@$King please. Why don't you give the guy a chance.. Clinton F@$Ked the USA up in hie time so it is going to take a little while to fix it. Not going to just fix itself over night. Oh wait... Maybe I'll sue you for slander.. Isn't that how the democrats get their way??? Damn, F@$King tree huggers.. Hey don't you have a protest to go to. I still have some constitutional rights you haven't taken away yet..

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Yes , the best thing there is that he has trouble pronouncing Afganistan. I am guessing if he just removes that fucking place from the map he can name the new place anything he likes,,,something easy perhaps... That is a problem with Americans , they would rather have a slick talker then a good man. Clinton should be selling cars...

Kyle

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:11 pm: Edit

No, I have been more than wide awake, and clear.

Look back at the ancient Mongols and Turks. you'll learn something.

By Kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Sure , show me the part where they were strong enough to carry the rest of the worlds troubles along with their own. When you can show me that part I will get reading. But , , , you cant can you ?

Kyle

By kyle on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:16 pm: Edit

And dont be another COWARD anonomous , post your name , register man , its easy. Unless you prefer to be a COWARD. Seems to be allot of that going around these days..

Kyle

By Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:32 pm: Edit

The broken english is suspect ... I THINK maybe you have good intentions, Anon. - I don't buy into that you've "majored" in this - if so, have you ever heard of the term "Paralysis through Analysis"? Maybe you need to get your nose out of the books. I've studied too. And, even if you did know the exact inventory of our military arsenal (which I can assure you, you don't) you shouldn't be trying to post it on the world wide web (another little giveaway).

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Anonymous=COWARD? Show me in your dictionary.

One's loudmouthedness is always from his/her own cowardice and self-abasement. Wake up from your self-conceit and self-deception!

God bless America!!

By Anonymous on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:53 pm: Edit

If you did know this is a world wide website, you shouldn't have posted what you just posted.

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:57 pm: Edit

What ever... I may not be the brightest person on the planet but at least when I say some thing (right or wrong) I'm not afraid to let people know that I said it. What are you a "spook" or some thing and not allowed to tell who you are? What's the big deal. Not like a first name is going to tell any one anything.. I'm sure if Kyle really wanted to he could trace you IP from your post and find out who you are or at least where you are posting from. I don't get why people post anonymously...

By Mr. Roverine on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Kyle, I haven't laughed since turning on news Tues. AM; but your post on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 02:48 pm ... I damn near fell out of my chair. Thanks for your wit.

So ... while we are investigating/planning/mobilizing ... why don't we send a clear message to those states harboring the terrorists by openly repealing the edict G. Ford enacted that prohibits assasination. Then we don't need an act of war. In business, we're always trying to call from the top-down ... let's do some real top-down calling.

Additionally, let's immediately direct funding to rebuild our intelligence infrastructure. Yes, we will have to become friends with some unsavory people, but it sure beats the hell out of the alternative.

We teach our kids to "walk away" if they can ... to not lower themselves to be like the schoolyard bullies; but when they can't, then fight. Well, we've walked away enough times and now we can't.

Greg (aka, Mr. Roverine)

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Greg,

It was Ronnie who signed the EO that prohibited the US from using assasinations.... I had to look it up for a Poli-Sci class years ago. Before that it may have become taboo, but wasn't 'illegal' until the early 80s.

For the coming operations to be successful, the oxymoron about 'military intelligence' will need to become inapplicable.


Annon,
A piece of advice.... go join the military and learn what it's about before you go spouting off about it.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain

-L

USMC 0311

By Steve (Steve2) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit

leslie -

you were/are 0311 - grunt? braverman than me. i was an armed boy scout for a while, then resinged thinking i'd catch ocs later......

now i'm old and slow.... but still can hit reasonably well with a air cooled, gas operated, magazine fed.... you know (wink wink - nugde nudge)

steve

By Blue Gill (Bluegill) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 06:20 pm: Edit

damn, I'm laughin my ass off over here

I also choose to believe that anon has good intentions, but, man, you're pretty transparent. Their innocent lives or mine? Their innocent children or mine? What the fuck do you think? I am, by far, the nicest man any of you could ever hope to meet (I'm not being conceited and saying I'm the best - I'm far from it, I'm just pretty goddamned nice to people). But I also firmly believe in my right to live, and I'll help uphold that right for others, too. I went out on a limb the other day and got into it with a redneck because he was givin Mr. Abdul 7-11 shit. Abby's just chillin out selling cigarettes & beer to our misguided youth...not bothering anybody. But, you know what? If Mr. Abdul 7-11 said he was happy that Americans were dead, I'd not hesitate to break him. That's what this country is all about; compassion where compassion is due, but at the same time courage of conviction when our strength & resolve are called on. And the responsible parties are about to realize they crossed the line and started an unstoppable stone rolling...I guarantee you that. Whether or not it takes 44 B-52s travelling north at 125 knots each carrying a full payload of bombs blah blah blah...who cares? It's gonna happen, and the 10,000 crates of army surplus ammo and stolen stinger missiles weilded by a bunch of guys who think that technology from 1801 is "recent" is not going to cut it.

There, you just read it on the internet...it must be true, right?

By Greg on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Leslie -- thanks for the correction (my "archives" need some dust blown off them ) Just heard something "funny" ... the Taliban leadership in Afghanistan just called for a Jihad against the U.S. -- why? because they're afraid we're about to kick their ass (standing up for ourselves).

Greg

By Greg on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Oh yeah ... and aren't these guys, the Taliban leaders, the same guys that offered immediate condolences? So instead of calling for a Jihad, why not follow up with a sincere apology for a severe error in judgement and offer to find/hold OBL until we determine his role? Maybe their initial condolences weren't sincere after all.

By Illnevertell on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 08:09 pm: Edit

I say: Blow jobs all around! I mean, Clinton was onto something there. These radicals are promised 72 virgins in their glorified afterlife. I say, give them a few good, experienced professional girls NOW, and they'll mellow out and forget this brainwashing. Just a joke guys, the temp's rising in this room and we need to remember we are the good guys. And no name for me.... my mother would kill me!

By Dale Farr (Dale) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I have been reading all of your postings and I am very proud to hear of your Patriotism. I just retired from the United States Army in February; I have already volunteered to return to active duty. I was a Blackhawk driver and I stand ready once again. The thing that I would like all of you to be aware of is this. Life as we know it has changed forever. Our Brothers, Sisters, Mothers and Fathers have been killed. They were members of every Nationality, Creed, and Color. All of them were killed needlessly. This is a direct result of our past administrations ineptitude. The words Honor, Integrity, Selfless Service and Dedication to the American People were lost within their code of conduct. They failed to implement the proper policies and procedures to minimize this type of act. They thought only of themselves!

Duty, Honor and Country are being spoken throughout the country, but where were these words two months ago, one year ago? The Red Cross has been asking for blood for months to no avail, few have bothered to donate until Tuesday? Terrorism has arrived within our borders and it is not over. Every American must become security conscious, you must be fully aware of your surroundings, you must look for the abnormal and out of place element. Americans must demand that the proper policies and procedures are implemented right now. Americans must be willing to sacrifice their civil liberties to ensure that security, peace of mind and freedom is maintained. Freedom does not come without cost. Nothing will change until everyone is aware of this, and until they are prepared to practice what they preach and are willing to make the sacrifices that will support this endeavor. Our Soldiers, Sailors, Airman and Marines do this every day without complaint and without a thought. Support Them. Stand up and say thanks.

The response to this attack will come, be patient. It must be carefully calculated, to ensure that it is a swift, deadly and silent operation. The Dogs of War will follow and they will unleash the fury of Hell, a fury that no nation has ever seen. Every Air, Ground, and Naval asset must be utilized to eradicate this Cancer called Terrorism. Hopefully innocent men, woman and children will not be killed, as there is no honor in this, unfortunately this will happen, it is a reality of war. There is no glory in killing, but it must be done to remove this tumor before it spreads any farther.

Retribution must happen now, before a Nuclear Biological or Chemical weapon is released within the United States. Every American must answer the call. Every American must voice his or her opinion. Every American must urge his or her Senators and Members of Congress to do what is right. You must hold them accountable for the policies and laws that they implement. You must hold them accountable for their actions and their moral discipline, after all you elected them. You must be prepared to make the necessary sacrifices so that the entire world will know that we are truly the Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free. Security should now be paramount within everyone’s mind. Your children, families and friends are not safe. You must continue to voice your opinion and you must give of yourselves, just as Soldiers do! Our past administration has failed us, and it is Your Voice, Your Courage and Your Support for this current administration that will save us. That’s my75 cents. Thanks.

GOD BLESS AMERICA and EVERY ONE OF YOU!

Dale Farr
CW4 (Retired)
United States Army

By Kyle on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

I wouldnt rate that as just 75 cents Dale. That is the most accurate post here yet. Those three words "Duty , honor , country" are something every American should say to himself every single day of his life. Our grand fathers and their fathers knew its importance , but , somewhere along the way , we as a generation let them down. Those three words are the most powerfull words you can utter as an American . And many Americans have died in distant lands serving those three words. They did it so that we could live free. There are no words to describe what fast talking polititians have done to our Armed forces , as Dale states they have done it with a personal agenda. When polititians cripple your defense they are no longer serving your best interest. They are however , more then likely , serving theirs. Again , something along the way went very wrong. This is a call to correct it.

By mike w on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 02:16 pm: Edit

ooooooo rah!

By linda trip on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 02:23 pm: Edit

So a $120 billion air missile defense system will save us ? How about a $300 per person tax refund ? How about relaxing our immigration laws for Mexicans ?How about stopping abortions and start some good old racial profiling ? Let's just tap everyones phone who happens to be middle eastern or maybe foreign . Your patriotism has blinded you from seeing the injustices that are done in the name of America . I am not a left wing radical but I do believe that there is a lot that our government withholds from all citizens . Take the power back by educating yourselves and your children not blaming politicians that we give a free reign to do as they please . Blaming past administrations is bullshit ,Bin Laden and terrorists like him were trained by us to keep soviet rule out of Afghanistan (Reagan's legacy) I want the scourge of terrorism to end , but don't you think that we should try to understand why people hate us so much. Do you think that every action the US takes is for the name of justice , or possibly to benefit the wealthy few who profit from our acts . So our troops were polishing the gold plumbing of Kuwait's palaces during Desert Storm(literally , I know people in the military who told me this)for human rights .... What about our arrogance ? What about the term "Ugly American" were these just made up by some scum of the earth that should also be eradicated ? I think not . Should this infrastructure of terrorists be eliminated , without a doubt, will leveling Afghanistan do it? Most definately not . Should we also level Lebanon after all one of the hi-jackers was Lebanese ? Maybe after we kill em all we could understand how we were able to disenfranchise so many . Please please please let rationality and intelligence prevail !

By kyle on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 02:42 pm: Edit

Another coward. You dont think your government and intellegence comunity didnt know what it was doing when it trained Bin Laden ? I am sure it served a purpose in its time and I am sure he and his actions would have stayed under close scrutiny had the chain of inteligence remained unbroken. The facts are that it didnt. There is a big hole in it. That big hole was caused by polititians with agendas. Intelligence isnt sexy , its like gears and lockers. Its the unseen power. You cant really show it off and it doesnt get you votes. Why not redirect that cash in a direction that will get that for ya?
Its appropriate that you pick that chicks name. You seem to be dumb as a brick. As long as we are a key player in the world and as long as we jump in and help where we can , we will make enemies. Its inevitable. It also doesnt take a college degree to know that. think about it dumb ass. If we are protecting another country (And our own interests at the time) that would mean we are in turn taking their battle as our own, as well as taking thier enemy as our enemy. HELLO Einstien!! NATO ??? WE have vowed to do so as well as other countries. The only fault we may have is that we keep our promises. Get your head out of your ass. Seems to me that you represent the "Selfish Americans" ....
Afgans have also called for the US to bomb thier own country to rid the powers that be. what the hell does that say to you?

Kyle

By mike w on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 02:58 pm: Edit

i wish y'all would use your real name instead of the bullshit hiding. i had a long reply wrote out but now it seems silly in all that has happened and is about to happen you would think you would allow people to vent instead of stirring the pot. some of those here have lost people they knew or loved. no one in our country has not been touched by this in some way. NO ONE! they have lost more than you or i can ever really appericate. and then there are those like Kyle who witnessed first hand the senseless stupidity of those cowards. i am angry, the world is angry. as i have already said i want a reckoning, i want a life for a life. be it middle eastern or home grown. i want all people to live a life of no fear. i want people to be able to go to work or school without having to worry about a plane dropping on them. i want children to grow old. i want them to have both of their parents at home with them when they have supper at night. i want prayer back in school, but most of all, i want people like those here that have whimpered and made it known that we dont have the right to extract blood for our losses to shut the hell up.

By ed on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Kyle the term I used was "Ugly American " and that is whom you definately have been representing lately . I am not a coward ,the names used in the posts were meant to create a little levity . My work brought me to a house of a person whose daughter and grand child were on one of the flights . I was affected but obviously not in the same way that you were . I felt grief but longed for justice and understanding not the bitter revenge that will just leave a pit of emptiness in our great nation .My views are not popular ,and I am in no way trying to lessen the feeling of patriotism in our nation , but in fact increase them by having a sense of ownership in our nation . By asking our leaders to act in way that we can all be proud of. Intelligently routing out the current groups of terrorists and trying to diffuse situations in the future by diplomacy . A "War on Terrorism" to me has a striking similarity to another battle which we have yet to win . Maybe you smokin' some of that funny shit right now .... Are you part of the problem or the solution ? Sorry , but I am definately not a dumb ass. I have however heard the term crack head used in conjunction with yours . Mike W. go pray for me and all the other so called tree huggers in your school but you make my kids pray in theres' and we got a problem pal. By the way I am not a coward and I live next to the biggest naval submarine base on the east coast . Also within a stones throw of US coast guard academy and EB biggest supplier of subs to our nation . (EB might now be eclipsed by Newport News). So what I am saying is that we are all threatened by terrorism . But it is how we chose to live our lives that will determine whether or not we are victorious .IMHO giving unconditional votes of approval for any action of our leaders is a disservice to our country . Giving unconditional support and comfort to those who have suffered is not . Lets not learn how to react to these actions but learn why they happen so that they may be avoided forever

By KJ on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Mike,

I think there is more here that we all agree on than that which we do not. Everything that you list as your desire for our future, the safety, the intact families and the rest, we all agree on. Well, I'd opt out of school prayer, but that's just me. I think the venting and expression of our shared pain is a good thing. We ALL need the release, but in true American style, we might not all agree on all points. As Americans we have to make room for other American's points of view, even if we don't agree all the time. Freedom of Speech is a wonderul thing and a bitch, all wrapped into one. I love it when people agree with me and grit my teeth sometimes when they don't. I'd like to think we are among friends here.

I'm from a military family as is my husband. We both grew up as military dependents. His dad was a test pilot in the Army, mine was a radio operator in the Air Force with his last hitch spent on Air Force One. Both our dads served in Vietnam, David's dad pulled two years, my dad pulled one year. We both moved all over the world, to include the Middle East. David's dad lost a dear friend, a test pilot from his class who he had remained close to all these years. He was in the plane that hit the Pentagon. I'm sure more personal losses will hit our families and those of many reading this forum. I'm leaving it to the "experts" in our Nation to formulate a plan to address the horror we're all dealing with. One thing I can be certain about, especially watching my father's career, is that there is much the general public may never know. As children we learned to ask few questions about our dad's day at work, they could never say much. I'll leave it to those with more complete knowledge than me to work out. What else can I do about that aspect?

I personally have been victimized by a segment of our government (something I won't go into here, but I got some satisfaction via my Congresspersons) and yet remain at heart a patriot. I can rarely sing a patriotic song without welling up in tears. I see the good, bad and ugly and try to know my limits. Knowing the vastness of what NONE of us may ever know, I refrain from speaking too much about what should be done, etc. What I come back to time and again, and this is not directed strictly at you, I hope we all will bear it in mind, is that we have to have room for one another. Vent, cry, rail about the horror, we're all feeling the same, but remember that the double-edged sword of freedom of speech is also what many, many citizens have fought and died for over the decades.

I hope everyone here understands where I'm coming from. United we stand, divided we fall and we CAN control that. I'll stand side by side with anyone I've met here, whether I agree with them or not. If you want to consider another way to support the country, buy some stock tomorrow. The bastards are going to have cost people their lives, their jobs and their feeling of securty but we can strike back right away by propping things up a little bit at a time. Maybe the next mod we can all make is to our economy, another target of the terrorists. If you buy just know you'll have to hold through a rocky road, but it will all come back and flourish in the end.

Hang tough everyone, we're all in this together.

Karen

By James Groom (Jimg) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit

I just returned back to Phoenix after driving to Las Vegas for the weekend and witnessed something that gave me some hope for this country. Sunday morning a shitload of firetrucks, ambulances, police cars, taxicabs and helicopters made a complete low-speed pass down the strip with sirens and horns going. Most of the taxi-cabs even had a flag attached somewhere. I am retired Air Force, neither me nor my wife lasted thru the parade without crying. Every person on the strip that I saw my age (about 45) also had tears in their eyes. The gen-xers I walked past did not seem to give a damn about the parade. GW may be a dumb-ass but he is the president and he has my full support. I had a Top-Secret SCI clearance in the military and had access to information that 99% of the government, including military, was unaware of. The president must make an informed and calculated decision, "nuke-em till they glow" would make a martyr of Bin-Ladin. The first step I would take would be to get that asshole's money, these terrorists would not get too far without funding. We should take physical action against the nations harboring these clowns, remember when we dropped a bomb "accidently" on the French embassy after they denied us the use of their air space? Pakistan did not give GW any crap when he recently asked them for airspace use.
Sorry for rambling but this bullshit has me frustrated because I cannot do anything about it and I wish I was back in Kuwait right now wearing a uniform. Below is my full name and e-mail address.

James P. Groom
jimgroom@msn.com

By Anonymous on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 05:14 pm: Edit

You know what pisses me off. When we do catch bin-ladin and his ASSociates, they won't be killed immeditaly. They have to go through the American justice system. Which means, they'll find him guily than sentence him to death. After a couple of years of being some guys bitch, we will execute him in a nice clean way. Does he deserve to die that easily,,,HELL NO!!!! This is my plan, we torture him for 1 year straight, everyday for 18 hours and broadcast it everywhere in the world. We'll combine ancient methods with Middle Eastern methods and some American. First we'll castrate them and make them eat their own balls, after that we will rip out their entire anal systems and feed them old nasty beans. Then peel off the skin on their arms, until the muscle is exposed to oxygen. We could do what Ryan said earlier, bury them in the desert cut out their eye-lids and make them stare at the 2:00 sun until their eyes burn out. Then we could douse their beards with gasoline and give them 2nd-3rd degree burns. We could think of a lot more stuff to do them, but the last would be the electric chair combined with lethal injection. Did I miss anything else?

By mike w on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:05 am: Edit

its so hard to be politically correct, however, karen, ed i am sorry if i have dishonored you in some way. please dont let my humble reply to your post be a symbol of weakness, but view it as an attempt to surrender. twice i started to write a short reply and ended up with words that would inflame. this is my final post here on this thread. fair winds and following seas. GOD BLESS AMERICA!
mike watson
USN 78-87
london, ohio
no fear here!

By KJ on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:31 am: Edit

Hey Mike,

Not to worry, no dishonor felt from my quarter. Emotions are high for all of us. I'm just trying to control what I can in my little world, stay positively focused, make a contribution toward normalization where I can (Red Cross, stock market, helping my local kids, etc.). I'm trying to trust in our leaders to win this one. I can't control what they do, so I can just hope. Fact is, I'm not qualified to say much about it, though I have deep *feelings* about it. I still feel if we all do our jobs, deal with things close to each of our homes, stay healthy and positive, then we are all doing our part toward our collective positive future. No fear here, either, Mike!

Karen

By Anonymous on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 07:09 am: Edit

Note there are two (or more) anonymous

Yes, not all public info is true. The Government has some things we do not get to know about BUT the vast majority of public info on the military is TRUE.

BTW Kyle, Axel and Ho can all tell who the anonymous are as they will be revealed by the ISP address (or some such techocrap)

Anonymous

By Anonymous on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:26 am: Edit

http://www.loveposts.com/

By kyle on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:30 am: Edit

Yeah , we can do thta. But dont unless they are really doing some dumb shit. I would rather they grow some balls and use their own name..


Kyle

By Glenn Guinto (Glenn) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:50 am: Edit

Hey guys, should we go for 300 posts? This has got to be the longest post by far. Anyway, just some info that I came across on the Internet that I thought I'd share with you. This is what the CIA has about Afghanistan.

One portion on that page says the terrain is mostly rugged and mountainous. I'd say conquer it so we can have another place for off-roading.


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:57 am: Edit

It won't be a bombing campaign, nor a cruise missile campaign. This'll be something between an all-out occupation, and smaller tactical hits. We'll have troops involved, but not all on a tactical line like in Iraq, as a warfront. It'll be lots of smaller strikes on training camps, hunting missions in the mountains for cells.... body count will be noticable on both sides.

Most of the populace will be inert, just some of the people will be dangerous. Like Vietnam, the problem will be that they all look the same. The difference is, we have not intent to stay... we are going in to kill certain factions, then leave. They can run whatever gov't they want afterwards, as long as they don't support terrorism.

-L

By Anonymous on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:01 am: Edit

I prefer, to at least in theory, to remain Anon as this has nothing to do with discos/rovers.

But anyone should be able to figure out who I am based on my run on sentence structure, poor spelling, and over use of certain terms

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:04 am: Edit

Consistent typos are the bigger givaway....




-L

By Anonymous on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:15 am: Edit

That too

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 03:07 pm: Edit

This is powerful:

http://thankyou.fast-networks.net/

By herky on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Lets not forget that asshole in Waco, he claimed to be a christian so do we now condemn Christianity? There has been plenty of crazy " Christians " through time, Spanish inquisition, Salem, etc. to single out the Islamic religion is fucking ridiculous. America was started from fleeing religious persecution lets not forget that.

By mike w on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 06:38 pm: Edit

oh geez!

By Anonymous on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 04:39 am: Edit

Target:


"Officials said only a meeting of an estimated 1,000 of Afghanistan's clerics that is expected to be held in the capital, Kabul, on Wednesday or Thursday, could declare jihad."


That meeting should have a giant X on it.

By Steven Henry on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 06:03 am: Edit

The Clerics are discussing handing over Bin Laden to the U.S. and not about specifically declaring a Jihad.

There are a few items to note about the Taliban:

1. They are not the recognized government of Afghanistan. Only three countries recognize them as the legitimate goverment of the country, one of which is Pakistan.

2. They have been in a civil war with the Northern Alliance, previously headed by Ahmad Shah Massoud. Massoud had been assasinated prior to the attack on the WTC.


Steven

By Anonymous on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:03 am: Edit

Well if we made it clear that none of them would survive don't you think they would make the right decisions


PS Yes I know, UAE and Saudis were the other two countries

By mike w on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:54 am: Edit

hmmmmmmmmmmm i wonder how the leadership of afterganned will feel that during their meeting a pair if eagles did a fly by. no bombs dropped just a super-sonic fly by. just a friendly "how-do". nothing lethal just lil notification that we are here and we do have air superiority!

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 08:35 am: Edit

I have a feeling the meeting will be secured, and all-out war would follow their reaction to a fly by....still, they better serve decaffe at that meeting

By Daniel on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 10:17 am: Edit

I want to pont out the latest move by the Taliban. I'm sure you have all heard that they are considering handing him over, but they want to hand him over to a "neutral country".
I need to point this out, as obvious as it is,
but we are not talking about 5,000 civilians dead in some neutral country. There are 5,000 American citizens dead. (I know there are still those who hope...but we have lost at least 5000 American lives)
I think these people are going to try to play some kind of "We tried to cooperate yet you attack us-We're the victim here" role.
Mark my words...

By Daniel on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 10:18 am: Edit

I want to point out the latest move by the Taliban. I'm sure you have all heard that they are considering handing him over, but they want to hand him over to a "neutral country".
I need to point this out, as obvious as it is,
but we are not talking about 5,000 civilians dead in some neutral country. There are 5,000 American citizens dead. (I know there are still those who hope...but we have lost at least 5000 American lives)
I think these people are going to try to play some kind of "We tried to cooperate yet you attack us-We're the victim here" role.
Mark my words...

By Anonymous on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 10:37 am: Edit

From CIA website:

"note: the Taliban uses a plain white flag"

This will make things interesting if they fight like Iraq.

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 11:58 am: Edit

Daniel, it sounds like the Taliban is trying to pass the turd. Unfortunately, you still have shit on your hands, even after you've passed the turd to someone else.

By MA on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 12:13 pm: Edit

bin laden has to have some sort of plan up his sleeve(or ass). The choad(recently acquired word) wants to declare war on all the countries that help America. Wouldn't that be every country in the world except Afkanistan?? I also heard that 3 anonymous billionaires are supporting bin laden(who has ~$2,000,000.) He also has a lot of American tanks, munition from "back in the day." I'm not doubting that Afkanistan will offically be the lowest point in the world after we are done with him and his followers, but we only stopped some of the 100's of cells in the world. Their are also terrorists in other countries outside the Middle East who have nothing to do with bin laden. This is going to be a very tough/long war against terrorism. The damn bastards are all over the world.

By mike w on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit

God Bless America
land of my birth
stand beside her


finish it!
anyone

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Greg!

Learned something today....

Reagan's EO that forbade assassinations wasn't the first: Ford was first! His was targetted at keeping the US from continuing to off heads-of-states that disagreed with the US - Castro, the ruler of the Congo, etc. etc.... evidentally Eisenhower and Kennedy and Nixon were all trying to covertly do in lots of different people. Reagan's EO broadened it to cover all assassinations; during Carter and Ford's administrations, while leaders of other nations weren't targeted, they were still allowing the CIA to hit other critical personnel.


So now we know the rest of the story....


Uh, Mike....

God bless America, land that I love
Stand beside her and guide her
Through the night with the light from above
From the mountains to the prairies, to the ocean white with foam --
God bless America, my home sweet home


-L

By Roverine on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:27 pm: Edit

I agree, and still say: you better bet these "secret" - "billionaires" may be helping to back these jerks, i.e., be it Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Venezuala, etc. etc., even Kuwait, (who knows??? 'He who controls the oil' ...) but most importantly, let's think about some of the other players (countries) that are either opportunists or acting complacent -- they act horrified, and maybe they are, or offer words of support, but continue to funnel arms/intelligence/etc. to these guys, knowing full well what they are up to. Politics. Power. Crazy assholes ... There are just some bad people ... everywhere.

I do belive that the "good" will prevail ... Just have too. I know this sounds weird, (even to me) but that song "Imagine" by John Lennon keeps going through my mind ... wouldn't that be nice (but alas, not real).

Kim

By Roverine on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Sorry if I weirded anyone out here ... just venting ... sometimes i tend to think waaay too much out of the box. God bless all.

Sincerley,
Kim

By Anonymous on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 03:19 am: Edit

evidentally Eisenhower and Kennedy and Nixon were all trying (and succeeding!) to covertly do in lots of different people

and don't forget JFK and LBJ.

Anon

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 03:29 am: Edit