By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Well gentlemen, time for another heated winch discussion.. I am ready for a winch and I am thinking.. "Hmm you sexy son of a b*tch, what kind of winch should you buy?" and I find myself debating between a Warn M15000 or a Ramsey RE12000... So what do I do guys, what do I do?

And also, where is the cheapest place to buy! :-)

Adam

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Why do you need that much pull on disco? OVERKILL!

By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Seating for 7 and always full of an average weight of 195 lbs.. we'll say the disco weighs 7500 dry (yeah i got allot of shit) add the 7 passengers at 195lbs and you get a grand total of 8865lbs. I like to have enough to pull me and the J**P behind me out of the thickest Alabama red clay I can get stuck in. Better safe than sorry!

Adam

By Al Hang (Alhang) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:36 pm: Edit

RE12, it's cheaper, easier to service, easier to fit, a little lighter. I would stay in the 10k to 12k range for a winch. the 9k's seem to blow way too easily and I don't think most electrics can handle their full rated capacity, except the ramsey and husky worm drives.

I personally have the Warn 12k but would prefer the RE12, but I couldn't pass up the deal I got on the Warn.

-Al

By Mike Little on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:51 pm: Edit

I am curious what you carry that adds 2500Ibs to a Disco, I have had mine on the scale and it is 4600lbs empty.
I looked at the RE12 also but there is not much off the shelf currently that will mount it on the front so I settled on an X9, good value and performance.

Mike

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:54 pm: Edit

Adam, you already have an ARB bumper, so that limits your choices to what will mount on that. The RE12K won't without major surgery. I'd stick with a Warn 12K or 15K.

Axel

By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Hey Ax.. ARB's directions says the re12 will mount with no problem.. They say the same about the Warn 15.. just stiffer springs are the only requirement.

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Ramsey pulls less amps 380 vs. 460 at full pull
and it's faster 3.3 ft/min vs. 2.48 ft/min and is 1 lb lighter and 10' more line, and is cheaper. Is there a choice here?

It is more of a PITA to mount. ;-(

By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:37 pm: Edit

I have the ramsey price list.. What's the difference in the RE12R, RE12H, and the RE12RX ? Besides about 60 bucks

Adam

By F.J. (Rovercon) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 05:39 pm: Edit

why not use a pulley block and double the pulling power?

By the way, Land Rover uses this winching formula.

W + (G * W) = effort required
-      -------
4           60

Where W = Weight

S = Surface to be transitted

G = Angle of gradient (in degrees)

Surface Types

Hard = 1/25 total weight of vehicle
Grass = 1/7
Sand (hard wet) = 1/6
Gravel = 1/5
Sand (soft wet) = 1/5
Sand (soft/dry/loose) = 1/4
Shallow Mud = 1/3
Bog = 1/2
Marsh = 1/2
Clay (clinging) = 1/2

Example: 4400 lbs Disco up a 15 degree dry & loose sand dune.

4400 + (15 * 4400)
---- -----------      = 2200 lbs of effort required.
4           60

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 02:48 am: Edit

FJ,

For clarification: IS where are you inputting the surface factor into the equation the first 4 in the denominator?

Thus, the equation is really:

W/S + (W*G)/60 = X


I think, given that it the four being in the denominator would be 1/4, = the loose sand factor.

Anyway, neat equation... Just use the clay factor, though (being the worst-case value), with a 60-angle (you're not REALLY going to pull up something steeper than THAT, are you??), to come up with a close-to-max potential pull (i.e. a 100-year storm value). If you take a 4400lb Disco (book value is really 4353lb naked), + people & gear at about 600 lbs, then you're at 5000 pounds.

5000/2 + (60*5000)/60 = 2500 + 5000 = 7500

Then round up.

So, it's wanting an 8000 pound winch minimum.

If you get a bigger capacity, say 10000 lb, you're not having to work the winch hard at max load.

Using a block doubles the pull, but cuts the length in half... if you're trying to get out of one little hole, that may not be an issue, but if you've got a long mud-flat to pull across, or a long bluff to get up, length of cable may become an issue. Just something to keep in mind....

-L

By kyle on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 04:54 am: Edit

The RE will NOT mount up on the ARB . THey are just screwing that up. THe different models that you are listing there are just different fairleads and the long drum designation..

Kyle

By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 06:55 am: Edit

Oh master of the RE Kyle, we salute you.. Didn't you document your install? Is it in the tech section? Am i just the laziest man alive for not looking myself?

Adam

By Kyle on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:02 am: Edit

I havnt put one in an ARB . I did a 12K warn in thumpers non winch ARB but not an RE in there. You can modify anything to fit anything but it wont just drop in there.

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:12 am: Edit

The 15k might not fit either, have to see as it has fins on the motor the 12k don't, besides you need an M15000 like you need a hole in the head. M12000 is plenty.

Ron

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:29 am: Edit

The 15K will fit, George S. has one on his DII ARB. It was close, but it did fit.

By kyle on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:40 am: Edit

Axels 12 pulls nice and its not bitchin and whinin while doing it. I cant say the same for other big planetary warns I have seen run..

Kyle

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 08:05 am: Edit

yeah, i remember hearing the M15000 complaining...
but damn, you can still pull 9000 lbs with the drum full.

By kyle on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

Um , yeah ho , thats the "Advertised rating" advertising is related to salesmen. When you put it in that light you begin to understand.


kyle

By Ali on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 08:20 am: Edit

No matter which winch you go with, unless you're using a pulley block, the capacity of the winch is unused anyway. Having longer cable is actually detrimental for the short pulls due to the "layer" factor. Really, a 9000lb winch with 80' of cable will work fine (for you and the Jeep)if you use a pulley block. Furthermore, if you're using a pulley block cuts your speed down to 1/2 so it's really slow then! But a warn 10,000/12,000 is a nice drop in unit for the ARB bumper however.

My $.02 worth

By Scott H on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 08:46 am: Edit

another queston...has anyone ever had thier winch NOT be able to pull them out because it didn't have enough pulling capacity? I have an XD 9000 and have been fine so far.

By kyle on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 09:14 am: Edit

Ali , Scott , you have obviously never been stuck good. A few weeks ago I witnessed the mounts on a mile marker ripped off. The man was stuck and stuck fast. AS far as 80' of cable gos , what the hell are you going to do with that? You will have to carry extensions and it limits your possibilities. On the same trip I saw that raggedy superwinch 9K stall about a million times and its a fairly new unit. Rocks arent where you need that power , its mud.. Sure there are a million things you can do to ease the strain on the winch but that becomes a serious pain in the ass when you are faced with a 300 yard field of marsh. I am not sure I would ever double the cable up through a block on that RE , to tell you the truth , I am scared of what would happen to whatever it is I am pulling on. With that much force bad shit starts to happen... I have never had the need for more power then that thing can deliver...

Kyle

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 12:56 pm: Edit

My 2 cents:

I think the most important factor when buying a winch is the type of terrain you are wheelin' in.

If you are making short pulls over obstacles, e.g. rock, the planetaries will be fine.

But if you are planning on pulling yourself out of long mud bogs, get the Ramsey or a Milemarker. They aren't sexy, but you can run the winch all day. The reason that Michel's Milemarker pulled itself out of the mount is that it will pull up to its rated capacity. I'd put my Milemarker up against any of the planetaries on a long pull, even with the underrated ps pump.

By Chris Browne on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Check also who has the nearest service center. For me in Eastern Mass, Ramsey was 20 miles Warn 350 and Superwinch about 40.

By Moe (Moe) on Wednesday, September 19, 2001 - 04:19 am: Edit

The RE 12 is a great winch. For me there is only one feature it lacks: there is no real resistance on the drum during free spool. The problem this creates is that the wire on the drum can unravel and loosen a bit. If there are plenty of helping hands, this is not a problem as a person can be stationed at the winch while someone runs the line.

By Ali on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 09:24 am: Edit

Kyle,

I should've said to cut off the cable at 80' but keep the rest looped up as an extension in the back. Since majority of the pulls are only 10' or less, an 80' cable works fine.

A good winch system can pull you out of most situation. Trouble is some winch systems are: 1) not wired and grounded well 2)wrong size cables are used 3) wrong type of fasteners or mounting are used 4)electrical system not up to snuff for such heavy amp draw. That's why you're seeing such winch carnage.

Doubling up the cable isn't necessaily going to increase the force on the hook. It's only going to make it easier for your winch and that's the key here. Now if you choose not to make it easier on the winch on these long, arduous pull then suffer the consequences of a failed winch!

There's no real reason to stick a 15k winch on a vehicle that is less than 6,000lbs. Pulley block can make any winch do twice the work and not pull an exorbitant amount of current. I know it sucks to have super slow winch (line speed is halved) but it works and it's economical!

By kyle on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 10:01 am: Edit

Ali , ok , maybe they have some crack out there where you are. doubling the cable through a block allows the winch to pull more. The vehicle I am hooked to and the attachment point will see this force and you can bet your ass on that.ets say the truck is stuck to the point that it stalls that 12K. INstead of me jacking it up and seeing what the hell is holding it I just double that bitch and hit it again. You seeing the point here? Instead of a stall I may get a bumper , or maybe a hunk of frame , a recovery point of some good shit like that...
As for your winch explanations , well , thats crap , the simple fact is that they are crap. Its that simple. Some company got a 9K pull out of them once in more then ideal conditions and thats the rating they slap on them.
As far as your 80' of cable gos. 80' aint shit and that pretty much tells us that you have never been in a real bad situation where you decided to just go through anyway. I have seen the bare drum on mine many times and expect to see it many more. Less cable means less options,,,,period. Snap out of it. Out west in the rocks you theorys may apply , here in the East things are much different.

Kyle

By Kyle on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 10:04 am: Edit

And why in the hell would you cut your cable in half then throw the other half in the back of the truck? You arent seeing just a tad bit of stupidity in that scenario? Its there on the drum wound nice and neat not hurting anyone. INstead you want it inside taking up space with the rest of the shit...

Kyle

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 10:44 am: Edit

LOL,, hehe, damn, if you are cutting it off, why not make it only 50ft on the drum, you'll still have a few wraps on there for when you spool it out.

hehehee
rd

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 11:52 am: Edit

I love winch arguments. I guess the reason that there are so many heated arguments is that once someone buys a particular winch, even if its junk, they will defend it to the death rather than concede the fact that they have a junk winch. People don't like to admit that they made a $800 mistake, so they rationalize themselves out of it.

My brother bought a Warn 9000i, wired it properly (he's an electrician), and had the thing smoke the second time he used it. The thing wasn't even dirty. But he still calls my Milemarker a pooch, because its slow compared to the Warn. Great logic!

Some people never learn!

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit

mike, very good and valid point.

so, in a way, this board is no good for asking about opinions. they will all lie to you. saying what they have is the best.

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

but mike, i have to agree with your brother, the mile marker sucks.

i'll still take my smokey girly winch over the oil pisser.

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Ho,

I'm not saying that "this board is no good for asking about opinions" and "they will all lie to you." I'm saying that when people spend a ton of money on something they have a hard time believing that they made a bad choice. Even after seeing the $G bumper that went out Kyle's window, I still have a hard time believing I made a bad choice; that's all I'm saying.

P.S. Everything on my Disco pisses oil except the Milemarker. If you're happy with the smoker, that's fine with me.

Mike

By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 01:22 pm: Edit

>"I'm saying that when people spend a ton of money on something they have a hard time believing that they made a bad choice."

Isn't that what the Land Rover Experience is all about? ha ha, have a good weekend, I'm outta here!

By RVR OVR (Tom) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Bluegill - Ouch! Sometimes things are just so true...

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 01:38 pm: Edit

mike, i hear yah.

and yes, not only this board, a lot of mailing lists, and posting boards in general...
truth is often hidden because someone paid too much money for some junk...

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 04:45 pm: Edit

"Isn't that what the Land Rover Experience is all about?"

I couldn't agree more. When I spent $800 on the Milemarker, I didn't realize that I'd have to deal with the "LR experience" (underrated ps pump= slow winch & 7500 lbs instead of 9000). Now I'll have to spend an additional $500 to make a bad situation ok.

By Kyle on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Mike , just make sure you ge that thing nailed down good once you do the PTO. Michel and I were talking about the whole winch thing while we were in Canada and the really funny thing is that I dont really belive that ,,,,lets say the warn,,,mounting system in the aluminum is enough to hold the winch solid under a 9K pull. I suppose they could test it by hooking a big ass winch to it on a mount and pulling against the brake up 9K. Use all 8 bolts in that bitch if you can . Mount it feet forward if possible. I am going to do a custom for Michel to solve his Miles marker woes. No one can ever say that the mile marker doesnt pull , thats for damn sure..

Kyle

By Ali on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 02:29 am: Edit

Kyle,

Here we go again. Yeah, you've seen the whole freaking damn world and all sorts of winch acitivites and I haven't seen shit. Dude, lighten up and get over yourself! (smiley face)

If youre using a 12k winch and it stalls, you're probably overloading it! Which probably points to too many wraps still left on the drump and you're not getting the full 12k pull. Unless you're telling me that a 5500lb vehicle needs 20k lb of pull, I don't buy that. Now, since you need to get unstuck why the hell does it matter if you double it up or not anyway? If you mount a 12k winch then you better damn well make sure it's a solid mount.

Yes, I've been stuck in AL, Tenn mud before and know all about the suction created by mud. Once I had to use up my cable plus all of my snatch straps, one chain and one tow rope just to get to the nearest tree! I really didn't belong there w/o a buddy vehicle. But I digress..

Now if you gotta use 200' of winch cable to go through mud bogs reguarly, dude you don't belong there. Leave it for the rigs with 44" mud bogs. (smiley face) Most winch cable pulls are usually just long enough for you to get back on your own power.

I wonder if most of the people on this board with winches only see action on the first layer?

As far as the MM unit, it's a work horse bar none. Any hydraulic unit will outwork an electric. However, when you have a group behind you then it gets a little annoying due to the slower nature of the hydaulic. If I had a better on board hydraulic pump/PTO setup then MM/Ramsey would be my first choice.

Have a good weekend y'all.

By Kyle on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 04:36 am: Edit

Ali , thats my point there sparky , I dont think that RE will pull 12K , I dont think the 9 will pull 9 and I dont think any of them pull as rated. You aparently still arent getting that. With the worms you are getting closer to what they are rated but I still dont think you are getting it.
Now , about where any of us belong and dont belong. WEll , read that over to yourself a few times and let it sink in. I will keep it in mind every time I leave the pavement.
This may come as a shock after your thoughts on it have already been stated,,but , believe it or not , many of us leave the pavement ALONE .Thats the way it is and any time I am out I want options , allot of them. I also want more then enough winch on the front of the truck. Not some wheezing whining hunk of shit that stalls at the drop of a hat. I want to know that a single line pull will get it done. I want most of this shit because it aint just me that needs winching sometimes.
Technically , you are right about the short lines and pulley blocks and all that crap. But just technically. If you know your winch is a hunk of shit right out of the box you can baby it for its whole life and probably never have a problem. If it was a realistic point of view there wouldnt be so many that get burned up.
I notice you say nothing of cutting your cable in half and throwing the second half in the back of the truck ? Are we done with that? Isnt that saying your winch doesnt have enough balls to do what it needs to do? I am going up to 250' of cable . I have as I have said before seen the bare drum any times. I have a pull pall and I live in an area with many anchors but I like the options the long cable gives.
Lastly , what the hell does your stupidity have to do with my experience ? You tell me to get over myself ? I simply said you havnt done much and its evident. I didnt say I had done more then you... Did I? Think about that for a second..

Kyle

By Ho Chung (Ho) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

50 ft of cable on the winch...
the other 50 ft in the back....

now, if you are comfortable with that, that's good.

i just hope the newbies have some sense to filter out the nonsense.

By mongo on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 11:05 am: Edit

Hey Guys,
I have a Warn 8000, little baby winch on my dII and I have yet to have a problem. Today I buried my truck in about 2 feet of muck. Upstate NY mud can be as nasty as anything else. I was able to use 2 jeeps a anchors and with a 2 pulleys, able to pull the truck out, through about 25' of the the shit with no problem. You can have the biggest winch on the planet and if you don't know how to use it, what good is it. I think that's what klye's point was...
So with that said, I think I have found a good use for jeeps, winch anchors. By the way, the jeeps couldn't even get within 25' of where i was stuck.

Frank

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 11:16 am: Edit

Kyle,

I'm not going to get the PTO, I'm getting a 1850 psi ZF pump and then using a relief valve before the steering box. Then I will switch out the standard 253cc motor with a 203cc motor. This will give me ~9500lbs. stall and increase the speed over standard. I'm not sure how that compares to the PTO as far as pull, but the PTO system will definitely be faster.

I have my winch flush up against the inside of the bumper and bolted on with the fairlead and is also bolted on the four spots underneath. I'm also using 1/2" bolts to connect the bumper to the frame. Hopefully that will be enough. Was Michel's mount plate steel or aluminum? Did he break bolts or rip through the mount?

By Kyle on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 11:49 am: Edit

The winch houseing on Michels is what actually failed. One of the rear bolts pulled out of the aluminum and allowed the winch to move up and forward. he has a nice solid mount , the aluminum housings are just shit... I have no idea why they use aluminum housings. The RE 12 is even aluminum...


Kyle

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 12:46 pm: Edit

I might weld on some brackets in the back so I can bolt on the back side. That should take some of the strain off the bottom.

By BOB on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 12:51 pm: Edit

HI GUYS
I AM NEW ON THIS BOARD,BUT NICE TO HEAR SOME INFORMATION,THANKS
DISCOVERY MPI OWNER IN TAIWAN

By Kyle on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Yeah Mike , definately hit those two other holes in the back , or , as I said , try to mount the thing feet forward. If you can get it in something feet forward all the issues will go away.. And remember to whack about half of your cable off..

Kyle

By adam@PowerEnterprises.NET on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Welcome BOB..

Mango, your yankee mud is no match for mine!

:-)

Adam

By Mongo on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Hey Adam...there's a difference between mud and muck...even if it's above the Mason/Dixon line...
let's trade...still have some in the sliders,bumper,floormats,teva's,mud room,short's....

Frank

By Ali on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 02:00 am: Edit

Hey Mike Rupp,

Might I recommend using a BMW ZF (extra tall) PS reservoir for your MM? Extra reservoir=more fluid=more cooling time. The tall ones are an exact diameter as the OEM but lot longer and has a cleanable fine screen mesh inside.

Just a thought.

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 07:31 am: Edit

Ali-

To be honest, I never thought of that. Where can you get one?

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 08:34 am: Edit

Kyle-

Because of the $G bumper, I can't mount the winch feet forward. The top lever would hit the Oil cooler in front of the radiator. If I weld in some brackets in the back, it should keep the winch down. Since its already up against the front of the bumper, I should be ok.

I only have 100' of 3/8" cable to begin with, so I'll leave it on.

By Ali on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:12 am: Edit

Mike,

I believe any BMW dealer or European wrecking yard should carry a PS reservoir. I'm assuming of course that your OEM res is similar to mine, they're quite short. I saw a buddy with a MM unit that installed a BMW unit. It was about twice the depth as mine.

By Michel on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 07:48 am: Edit

Mike,

The diffence with the pto is two folds. Fist you isolate the steering hydraulics from the winch hydraulics, not a small thing since I just exprianced this first hand, it my winch and steering system were the same I would of had to have my ass pulled out of this god forsaken trail for some distance. Before the PTO setup, I carried the spares to put the steering back to stock and by pass the winch in case something happened, but it never did then.

Second, the PTO is just a strong brute. Basicaly an industrial strengh system. With the "military" valve controler from MM for the winch, I can set the flow to 8GPM, this translate to about 20fpm at full pulling power, but it's also controlable by the engine rpm and gear selection so I can go as slow as I feel is neccessary. Add to this the 2 gallon oil reservoir and well, you can go all day.

Michel

By michel on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 08:04 am: Edit

The using the pulley block also causes another concern with the mounting. If you are using it and are at the end of your spool on the drum, and connecting it back to your winch mount, the strain on the mount can be unbelievable. You can minimize this by having the return cable go to another anchor besides the truck.

The other problem is of course the halving of the cable lenght, too many times the anchor is barely within the 100ft range, never mind 50', so if the winch system "needs" the pulley for strengh, then my friend, you are fucked.

As for being were you are not supposed to, man, you think you have a choice? Around here we don't go to offroad parks (from here on end refered to as Disneyland) were you have the gps coordinates of every fringing rock, we find our own trails, and once you are there you take whatever it trows at you. I've seen all the boy's with the 44" swampers winch themselves out, and often not having the power to do it right, and "helping" with the pedal to the metal and fucking up their shit and the trail. So if you offroad in disneyland I guess it dosen't matter what piece of jewlery you put on the thing, but if you actually venture offroad...we'll think twice about your equipment.

Michel

PS Ho, I like that new term, oil pisser LOL

By peter matusov on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 08:49 am: Edit

now i figured that a 3/4 ton come-along won't cut it... it's all rusted, anyway :-)

Kyle, I'll drive up to PK's place pick up that nice combo winch. been thinkin of making some sort of a double-2" hitch receiver mount, so i could use the bitch on either of my vehicles.
put one on each framerail... how's that sound?

peter