By Clint on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 03:45 pm: Edit

Looking for some advice on a locker.
What is your experince on the following...
performance? sand mud snow ice
cost?
install time?
one or two?

Most of the problems I've had have been trying to climb snowy hills with big holes in them. You get cross-axled and that's it.

Also, I need the truck for my wife's daily driver in snow, so street handling needs to be good.

The only experince I've had is when we gave my brother's nissan truck a lincoln locker in the rear. It was pretty cool, but we still could not make it up some hills. Both rear tires and one front tire would spin because all the weight was in the front. It seemed like a front locker would have been the ticket, but I suspect the same thing would've happened. At some point all four tires would spin and you still wouldn't get up the hill.

By Ron on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Install time on a DL or TT is 3-4 hours. An ARB is more because of the lines. I have /ARB/DL combo in the 110 but I have never driven it so I can't really say how it handles. If your wife is driving it I would get dual TTs. We have the TT in the front of the disco now and it is not noticable to my girlfriend who owns and drives the truck. I can tell it is there but it is more of a felling than any negative handling. Personally if I were not running obnoxiously large tires (which the TT will not handle) I would have a TTs in the 110. We are getting another TT for the rear of the disco soon. Offroad it is great in mud. Almost as good as a full locker, especially if you know how to use it. You cna probably get by with stock shafts with a TT, but if you get a DL you will need HD shafts which are a high ducket item. I originally got a DL for disco but it was vetoed by the boss and hence it went for the 110.

Ron

By Frank on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Ron -

Why won't the TT handle big tires? And what do you mean "if you know how to use it"? Just curios...

By Ron on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 04:33 pm: Edit

The TT says right in the thing that comes with it not to exceed 32in tires or else warentee is void yada yada yada. I have 36in ground hawgs for 110, so I erred on the side of caution and bought an ARB front/DL rear. I don't know as I have seen people run the TTs on trucks with 35s and no problems. So basically anything you put on a disco a TT would be ok with. The "know how to use it" is just to tap the brake if you lift a wheel. This "tricks" the TT into sending more torque to the wheel on the ground. Are they as good as a DL/ARB off road. No, but they are close and they don't put anywhere near as much strain on the axles and they don't really have any negative andling charistics, on road or off road. Up to you. Most people do DL rear TT front but you can definately do dual TTs and keep up pretty good. The only place where full lockers really make a big difference is rock climbing.

Ron

By Clint on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:32 pm: Edit

What about rear only vs front and rear?
Don't you have to reset the ring and pinion when installing a tt?
Also, how much are they and from where?
Thanks,
Clint

By nadim on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:33 pm: Edit

ok...
I have a message, 95% of the time, I will be driving the Disco, it has 32 inch TSL radiads, and the onroad terrain varries, but what really scares me is the winding hill roads!....

Anyhow...I am getting a rear ARB for sure, what about the front?...should i get a TT for simplicity, price and ease of installation, or is the difference not big in the money dpmt for me to get an ARB up front?...is it true that it is better to steer with an 'engaged' TT than a locked ARB?

thanks in advance...

By Ron on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Ok,
You can get dual TTs for about what 1 ARB costs with a compressor. Nathan is now an ARB dealer and has the best prices. Leon Rosser Jeep sells rover TTs for 351 each and 19 to deliver a pair (note front is different from rear part number) You can run an arb w/o upgrading shafts but it is all dependent on your driving style and amount of use. A TT will put some stress on axles but not like a locked ARB. A Detroit in the rear of a disco will definately ruin the shafts. If you already have an ARB rear, you probably want to get an ARB front too if you can swing the extra 250 bucks, but it is up to you. An ARB has zero effect when not engaged but can be a pain to steer off road when locked. TTs are mostly invisible on road and do not effect steering offroad. yes you have to reset the Ring and Pinion with any locker or LSD, seek professional help. however if you pull the third member out and take it in, install should be really cheap as it only takes a bit to install the actual locker in the third member. If you are going to do one do the rear first.

Ron

Any other questions? I spent two weeks figuring all this stuff out.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Ron . most diff makers say that about the tire size. it dont mean shit. In fact , if you check with ARB , they say the same thing....

Kyle

By nadim on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 06:00 pm: Edit

ron,

i already have the ARB air compressor, as I have planned, and will get an ARB for the rear, that is no question, with 24 spline axles...

but the question is for the front, the difference in price is 250$, that's it, and 2 more hours of installation time, between the front TT and ARB. So for that, wouldn't it be better to get an ARB, but then, you have to disegage it when steering off road, and the TT will still work it's charms even then...

I have never driven with any kind of lockers, but i read alot, so what I am saying is of 3rd nature!

please help!
thanks again!

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Check out some info on the following sites:

http://www.arb.com.au/ARB.htm

http://www.britishpacific.com/icaweb/britpac.nsf/29c1f7fbc3b6a4a58825643500790f9d/b2c90edab90f3fd188256470000a505c?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,arb

A while back, I read a great review about all lockers, and it detailed inherent ARB upgrades to diffs/axles/etc. - 24 splines and all that. I can't find the link now...

I'm running an ARB rear air locker, and it is great. As far as normal driving and handling goes, it does NOT exist, unless I hit the button on the dash to engage it. It makes hill climbing in loose stuff and cross-axle situations much easier. It's like when you approach a steep incline in normal 4-high and can't make it up...you back off, engage center lock in 4-low, and you make it right up. The ARB gives you one more trick up your sleeve - you're in 4-low but wheelspin is keepin you down; engage locker and you make it right up. I've thought about installing front, too, but I haven't really had the need. A little creative driving and momentum from true 100% rear traction has always taken me past obstacles. Plus, I added a 20' coil with air vavle to the port on ARB compressor, and now I can air-up tires (just have to supplement the tiny tank with a larger one...work in progress).

My vote for ARB...
-BlueGill

By Cal on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 08:10 pm: Edit

Clint,
Go to greatbasinrovers.com and read what Bill has to say about lockers and each of there ups and downs. He has 20 + years experience with Landrovers and his customer service is awesome.

Cal

By nadim on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 10:16 am: Edit

Hey Bill...

So would you advise me on getting a rear ARB first, and then complementing it with a front ARB or TT if i see necessary?

Yeah, come to think of it, it is better that way, better for the pocket, and the comprehension of the car...

Thanks again people for all the help.

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:17 am: Edit

Great Basin was the place that I couldn't remember yesterday - the place that I read the good review about lockers...thanks, Cal.

Nadim, I'd go with rear ARB - and do some research before going with front ARB (steering issues???) If I ever feel the need to add front locker, I'll seriously consider the TT before ARB.

By Tom on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:26 am: Edit

I am on the verge of making the plunge for lockers as well, and have decided to go with ARB front/rear. A buddy of mine who has been wheeling in jeeps for quite some time has tried about every combination: Detroit Front/Rear with locking hubs, Detroit/TT, TT/TT, and ARB/ARB. He said if money is no object ARB/ARB is the leader for a truck with full-time 4wd. That way, you can use open diffs when it is good (on road, especially in snow) and then control when to lock up either partially or fully. The only problem is the added strain on your axles will most likely necessitate upgrades to axles/flanges in the rear and axles/CV cages in the front.

Ron - I think you stated that you can get away with stock shafts...is this true? That greatly cuts down the cost and seems to make sense with control over when to/not to lock. A detroit can lock up and snap in when it wants to, and an ARB can be locked in and power brought up in a controlled manner.

By nadim on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 06:43 am: Edit

I know of people who have 32 inch tires with ARBs and the standard 24 spline 1.25" axles. I am presuming that when engaged, driving with the ARBs should be less gas happy, right?
And therefore have less strain on the axles.
Is this true?

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 07:26 am: Edit

Kyle,
The only locker I have seen that says tire hieght limit is TT which says 32 is the max, the instructions for the ARB and DL have cya warentee info but no specific tire hieght limits.

Others,
You can get away with stock shafts if you use them smartly. The rule of thumb is to never engage the front unless it is absolutely necessary and then only in a strait line. Also an ARB reacts a bit better to breakage than a detroit locker does so if you break the shaft the ARB should still be ok. With the Dl you have about a 35% chance that the locker is toast too. Cost no object Dual arbs or ARB/DL is the way to go, but dual TTs or especially, TT/ARB or TT/DL will keep up pretty well. The DL stress the shaft constantly so they fatigue and then break. I know a couple people with D90s who have DLs with stock shafts for a couple years w/o breakage but I feel it is only a matter of time. In a heavy disco I think a DL would toast shafts even with the most gentle left foot. The cause of most shaft failures with the ARB seems to me to be engaging it when the wheels are still spinning. This is a big stain on the axle and a definate no no. Less abrupt throttle, and also keeping the front ARB off in turns will keep them in one piece as well. What I have in the 110 is an ARB front and a DL rear with ashcrofts. The main reason the ARB is in the front is for emergency use and to replace the weak stock dif. That is it. I think if you keep careful your shafts should be ok for a good amount of time. However, since LR shafts go even w/o lockers exspect to have to replace them eventually. One last thing. If you rock crawl it puts way more stress on axles than east coast style trails, so I would say west coast you will want/need HD rear shafts at least, in the long run.

Cheers
Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 08:29 am: Edit

Well , I see that no one has touched on the really important part of this discussion. I see in this talk that most people figure they are going to get what is advertised. Well , ARB doesn't advertise that their lockers can be high maintenance. Think about what ya got there , all those links in that chain before the locker can even engage. Switch/wire/compressor/fuses/hoses/more wire/O rings...etc etc....
I also see that the ones talking about detroits most of the time are just relaying something they heard about the way they handle on the street.
I have both here. A Disco with ARB front and rear and a Disco with Detroit rear and TT front. The one with the Detroit/true trac combo wins over all. It drives fine on road , and it does what it needs to do off road. The ARB fully locking front is an advantage off road in some situations but the wires and switches and hoses can make it less then the TT at any given moment (And has). After seeing this conversation come up numerous times I think the best advise would be for you to drive one yourself if you can and see what you think first hand. But as far as reliability goes , you cant beat the detroit/true trac combo. Ron mentions Axles and what you can get away with , to me that's putting off the inevitable. If you are doing lockers do the axles and be done with it.

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 08:52 am: Edit

I agree with Kyle arbs are high maintaince and high fault rate which is why I like DL/ARB so you will always have a rear locker if the ARB goes down. You have to cycle the ARB monthly or the seals dry up. Only catch is to a DL is that you pretty much have to upgrade shafts. If you go with an ARB you can go a long time on stock shafts. Same thing with Dual TTs. Based on how the TTs operate I think stocks shafts will be fine for a good long while and you would probably be better spending your money on something else. If you look at it this way I think Dual TTs is pretty good for east coast wheeling, but if you got the cash for shafts a TT/DL works a little better, at the cost of a noticeable but not too bad change in handling on slick surfaces.

Ron

Or you can wait for the electrac, or whatever it is called

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:04 am: Edit

Why avoid buying the heavy shafts at all? Its silly to just put it off and spend that cash on something else when you know you are gonna need em. If you have either locker and stock shafts you are riding around on a time bomb that will go off when you really really dont need it to. Think about it. When is it gonna break? Its gonna break when its getting the most stress and that will be out in BFE not in your driveway. Why all this talk about "What you can get away with" ?? I mean , you can "Get away with" no locker at all.


Kyle

By ho on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:25 am: Edit

but kyle, shaft is shaft...
you'll get the shaft like it or not.
either way, in the rear... soon or later.

so, it's just a matter of enjoying the adventure with the shaft and have a good time, or, get shafted after the adventure goes sour....

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:32 am: Edit

Because shafts cost major bucks. You can run stock shafts with ARBs or a TT and get years of pretty heavy use out of them. Sure it would be great if everyone could afford to shell out 3k plus for dual ARBs and Sg 30 splines in the back and 1 ton cvs and maxidrives up front but if you are not crawling you can make it without them. heck why not put dual D60s under the disco. It is all a matter of what does it for you. For 1000 you can have dual TTs installed and your shafts will last for a good amount of time. For a little over 1500 you can have dual ARBs and if you are not an idiot you can keep the shafts in one peice. As you go up in the harshness of a locker the stress on the axles goes up. Even with the best axles you can still break them. For me changing a rear shaft is no biggy and I carry spares so even if I have to do it in the middle of BFE it is not a big deal, and since I almost never go alone and I have plenty of recovery equipment breakage is not a big deal. The key thing is to be aware of the situation and make decisions in line with your disposition.

Cheers
Ron

PS No lockers, no fun ;-(

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:35 am: Edit

Now , this "Years of use" ? was that on a truck you have? You have anything locked that you are driving every day or are you just going off second hand info?

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 09:52 am: Edit

Lets see, should I list all the people I know with various lockers and how long they have had them:

1995 D90 DL rear/TT front stock shafts and 33s ~3 years of use
1994 D90 DL rear w/ stock shafts 2 years on stock 265 size BFG MTs
1997 disco DL/TT combo with ugraded rear shafts two years no problems
1995 Disco dual Arbs 1 year of use
I could keep going but I am not sure how long others have had them in. I probably know as many people who have broken upgraded shafts as I do those who have not broken stock shafts. Ya, I am new to the whole rover locker thing but I did my homework and I am happy with what I got. And if I break a shaft then maybe upgrade. Disco gets driven every day and it has the front TT and another one when I feel like putting it in. Now that it is getting warm I will be driving the series around and that will probably get lockers too.

Ron

PS in no way do I condone DLs with stock shafts, although I know people who do it.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit

Confirming that its all secind hand. You should get the stuff yourself and form an opinion. The Detroit isnt anything like its depicted in these "Stories" I hear all the time and the damn ARB isnt nearly as nice as stories I hear about it either. The shaft argument is silly. You want the locker , get what gos along with them. Its very simple. Why would you try to avoid it? How good is any locker if one axle is broken?If you can afford a traction diff for both ends you could have afforded one locker and one set of shafts to make it reliable. IF its in there and it aint reliable , what good is it?

Kyle

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 11:08 am: Edit

Well, second hand in they ain't mine but first hand as in I have seen them. If you are going to do it and get a detroit and shafts for my money I would rather have dual TTs and no HD shafts. Actually, come to think of it the only two shaft failures I know of with a TT was BJs and he HAD the upgraded shafts so go figure, and one in a 93 RR in which 1. the owner knew the cv was on the way out and continued to drive it hard, and 2. did not have 24 spline shafts. With the ARBs it is all how you use them, and as far as reliability how you install them. I have a Nitrogen air tank (so I can charge the shocks too) for mine and will be using pneumatic switches to activate it. Will it be as relaible as a TT or DL, no, will it be better than stock, yes. The front upgraded shafts are not that much better than stock do to the limitations of the cv so I think it is a waste to put them in at the amount of money they cost. You are better off being careful and not locking the front until absolutely necessary. If you plan to wheel hard get the upgraded rear shafts or at least carry a spare set like I do.

Ron

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

All this talk about upgrading to heavy duty shafts - do you all mean something like Tom Wood's custom HD shafts?

If I've got ARB in the rear (of my truck), am I correct in only being concerned with the rear driveshaft?

And what should be upgraded within the diffs & axles? What is a spline, anyway?

Go easy on me Kyle, I drivetrain-challenged.

By Ron on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 11:46 am: Edit

HD axle shafts not drive shafts. See ashcroft (Eastcoast rover sell them) or Maxidrive (great basin rovers sell them). Driveshafts are only need ed with lift.

Ron

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Oh...duh...thanks, Ron. Good write-ups on both Great Basin's and Eastcoast's web pages - now I'm edjimacated...

I'm still wondering if I should be concerned with my 1996 Disco with 24 spline axle and ARB locker (rear)? As of this weekend, I'll be running OME HD front / MD rear suspension with 265/75/16's. And I run it hard...

If I was swimming in cash, it would be a no-brainer, but I'm not. I also don't want to get stranded in BFE, which is where I spend most of my time. However, I've watched the rotoflex panic spread across the Rover world like black death, and I've never had a problem (I inspect it almost daily). If I even suspect a problem, I'll give Tom Woods a call. I've also never had a problem with the switch/wire/compressor/fuses/hoses/more wire/O rings...etc etc....in my ARB system.

I appreciate the input.

By nadim on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:38 pm: Edit

ok...
First, I am sure and certain that with an ARB in the rear, the standard 24 spline 1.25" axles with up to 32 inches is a good setup. now, if HD, it is better, however, my best friend back home has an ARB in the rear with 1.11" 10 spline since 1991, however, if ever someone knew how to tango with a Rover, it would be him, gentle, and swift, plus very winch happy when the going gets tough!

Second, I have decided to go with a rear ARB, and then see what to do for the front.

Third, what does BFE stand for?


cheers!

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 01:27 pm: Edit

BFE = Bum Fuck Egypt, which is a term meaning "a long way away from here" (the USA), or "out in the middle of nowhere". But it's not too extremely far southeast of you in Lebanon (don't think you want to drive throught the Gaza Strip, though...)

You don't want to be caught in BFE with busted axles. You may want to substitute the "E" with "A" for America.

By nadim on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Thanks Bill!

That was both enlighting and funny!

Actually I am planning on a tour of the Middle east in september...lebanon, syria, turkey, syria, jordan, israel (if the stupid politicians allow me), "BFE", and then back home some way...

wanna join?
hehehe

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 02:46 pm: Edit

God damn that cracked me up Bill....lol
My point is , everyone wants things that will make their truck look better and go further out into BFE but very little emphasis is put on reliability and longevity. That really blows my mind . For instance if you have two opened diff trucks. One with stock axles and one with upgraded axles. The one with upgraded axles is more capable because the truck is stronger. Yes the stock diffs are weak but so are the axles.And you have taken care of one weak link.
Now , two different trucks. One with open diff and upgraded axles and one with a locker and stock axles. These two trucks are equals because each has a weak link that you know about so you really cant drive it to its fullest potential.
A friend of mine was about to get lockers for his truck and he asked me what to do and what combo to get. He wanted to get the Detroit rear and the ARB front.Because thats what he could afford at the time I explained to him that if he did that he really wouldnt have a nice setup in either the front or the rear and that if he got the rear detroit and the Heavy axles to go along with it , he would then have upgraded his trucks performance and durability.So I installed the detroit and Heavy axles in the rear and now he can take full advantage of the rear locker and not have that worry in the back of his mind about the damn axles. Both failures Ron is reffering to on the front axles was due to CV failure. I am quite sure the star in Brians was cracked causing the axle to spin in the spline therefore removing the spline from both . The axle did not break.

Kyle

By Milan on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Earlier today, I typed a post about how the TT does not steer better than a locker when you're in the slippery stuff and on power. However, it got lost and I'm too lazy to re-type it. Suffice to say, in most situations it does steer way better than full lockers.

With rr ARB and frt TT, one would have to be aware of the TT working all the time, so on snowy/icy roads, one would end up with front-wheel-drive like handling if the rear ARB was not engaged and the central diff lock was. That's not necessarily bad either as FWD does great in snow and on a Disco that rear would still work somewhat.

I also think dual TT or rr DL/frt TT combos kick butt and without all that 'psssssphsssttt' of an ARB equipped vehicle. And for less moeny to boot.

AS far a HD axles go, I don't have enough experience with rovers yet, so I can't say how necessary they are. However, be aware that when an axle breaks, the forces of it snapping can destroy either the DL or the TT (on the TT the worm gear gives up the ghost usually).

I think if you plan on snapping axles, you should have an open diff or an ARB. Or better yet, upgrade the axles like Kyle says. There's nothing like the peace of mind with durable equipment underneath you.

On the other hand, I think you're less likely to snap one with the TT than any locker. So, unless the rover axle shafts tend to go quite regularly even with open diffs, I think you'd be safer with stock axles and a TT than stock axles and an open diff. Why? Because you can be gentler and the torque gets distributed more evenly to both axleshafts. If you get agressive with the TT and start locking up just one side, with the other in the air, you'd beter upgrade as they can take D44 size u-joints out no problem, so snapping weak axles would be your concern as well.

I hope this helps. Great discussion!

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 03:39 am: Edit

The cv failing is my point. Carry spare shafts. Upgrading the front is almost useless because it is the cv that ends up going more often than the shaft. Sure you can put in HD shafts and a better cage but the star will go. There is the weak link that has no good upgrade. Even if you revert back and do the 24 spline (not 32) cv, or even the 1 ton lr cv it is still about as weak as the stock axles. Frankly for the amount of money it costs the front upgrade does little. Yes it makes sense to upgrade the rear shafts with a DL, and probably makes sense with an ARB and maybe a TT too, but I still feel the weak link is in the front CV, I have seen to many of them go in mall parking lots to think otherwise. If you replace the crap open difs with either TTs or ARBs you are upgrading the reliability of your truck. Your have removed a weak link (the dif) and replaced it with a better product. It only makes your truck less capable if you decide to run harder trails and push the limits further.

Ron

By Clint on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:00 am: Edit

The solution...

An idea that I had was to put in an "overtorque clutch" at each wheel. The device would normally be locked up, but when torque exceeded a preset value, the thing would slip and save your axles and driveshafts.

Warn beat me to it with the "hub fuse". It is a locking hub with a special locking ring. The teeth on one side are machined down to less than a quarter of their original width. If you break one, you just pull the hub cap and replace the ring with a new one. A five minute job if you don't have to remove th wheel. Spare rings are alot easier to carry than a whole shaft. You could fit a whole set in your glove box.

I think it would still be better to have the clutch slip, but not destroy itself. That way you would be alerted that you used too much stupid pedal, but as soon as the spinning stopped, you could continue to drive.

A device like that would end all of this conversation.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:09 am: Edit

GKN torque limiters , they are already out there....


Kyle

By JEEPETR on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 04:27 am: Edit

If anyone is interested in some more information on the GKN Torque Limiters, follow this link..

www.fluentnet.com/lr/tech/torque.html

This gentleman is running them on his D-90, and has some photos of them, description of how they work, and contact phone numbers for the manufacturer in England...

~Scott T.
'95 D-90 (JEEPETR)
'96 Discovery (New Addition to the Addiction!)

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 05:30 am: Edit

Upgrading the weakest link makes perfect sense, since the truck is only as strong (and capable) as it's weakest link. Until this discussion I was pretty much clueless as far as axle durability issues are concerned. My stock axles have been fine so far (that is, they haven't broken), but I see the logic in the idea that I'm able to place more stress on my axle with ARB locker engaged.

That torque limiting slip clutch is pretty cool, too.

Good Discussion - I'm just left wondering if it would be cheaper to upgrade every link in my Disco so I can explore the outer limits of BFE with peace of mind, or would it be cheaper to just tow another Disco behind mine for spare parts?...

By Leslie on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 07:36 am: Edit

One thing I've noticed on this thread is a subtle difference of opinion from those who are familiar with Series Rovers in addition to the Disco...

Quite often with Series Rovers, you WILL break an axle shaft in the driveway! Usually they break there instead of in BFE... odd, eh? Series owners have a "ALWAYS carry spares" attitude that doesn't hover over other 4x4 owners (I realize that this is a gross generalization, but is true).

I'm not running anything in either my Series or my Disco... BUT! I eventually will. I'll get to the Disco after the Series, because the Disco is my daily driver, and my Series is my hard-livin' beater toy. It'll get a rear DL with shafts first. After that, probably the same for the Disco. Then a TT for the front of the Series, and then the same again for the Disco.

The idea of the on-board air is nice, but it'd be a heck of a lot cheaper to get a smaller air compressor to handle the tires other than an ARB setup.

Just mi dos centavos....

-Leslie

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 07:47 am: Edit

Oh dear lord a DL in a series, man I can here the aweful sound now. Pop! Forward progress stops, you shift into FWD (now front wheel drive) and drive off. It would take some doing and some stout shafts to make me try that. I think you hit the nail on the head, you drive a series truck you exspect to have to fix it. You end up replacing shafts every 20-30k even unladen with stock difs. I think I am going to get a TT for the back of the 1959 soon, the only catch is that I like my Warn FWHs back there so I can tow it and therefore I would need 10 spline axles. I think after I eat through the spares I have now I may shell out the duckets for the alloy 10splines Charles Kellog sells. I have not called Bill to ask if maxi drive makes alloy 10 spline at both ends shafts for series trucks but probably should. I would like 24 spines but I like my warn hubs better. I think a front TT in a series would push the armstrong power steering a bit too much ;-)

By Leslie on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 07:57 am: Edit

Hence the reason why I said "It'll get a rear DL with shafts first." I guess I should have clarified and made sure that I said HD shafts, aka Ashcroft or some such...

NAWW.... if you're used to driving a Series anyway, I don't think that you'll notice the TT up front!

I'll admit that I like my Warns up front; and while I think that they could be useful if you pull your Series behind you to go to a lot of places (ie, like if I take both the Disco and the Series to the Uhwarrie Safari), I think they'd look funny on the rear... Still, though, you've got a point.... Hmmm......

-L

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:12 am: Edit

http://www.discoweb.org/alyssa/caravan.jpg

You mean like this? I think the warns look good back there as they balance the front. If you look carfully this pic is pre rear Warn FWHs (and a couple other goodies). I just got tired of crawling under and disconnecting the rear prop shaft, hence more warn FWH.

Maybe I should explain more about the DL. When I talked with the owner of a certain LR place that sells these shafts he said that the series ones were not as tough as the coiler ones, that they were made of less stout metals. Certainly stronger than stock but not bulletproof was what I got out of it. I think with all the slop in the average series drivetrain that a DL would be too much. Also in part time like series trucks a DL does have more handling effects than in a full time like the disco. These tow things combined I am leaning toward a TT as it will especially help me in the RTV courses.

Ron

PS look out for me at Uwharrie, let there be Mud. hehehehe

By nadim on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:15 am: Edit

people, gotta hand it to you!
great discussion!
very proffessional!

well, i though last night about it, and here is what i'll be doing to my disco in lebanon:

i will be swapping the whole rear end with a salisbury unit from a 96 D110 with disc brakes and 24 spline HD shafts, with 4.7 gearing to match my front gears....
then I will slap in an ARB, and I think that should do it...the whole thing...i.e. the new rear, selling my old one, and all the other expenses, should set me back not more that 300$, but I will have a rear end that is almost 3 times stronder?

any thoughts on that?

please comment

thanks

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:21 am: Edit

You will need to shorten your rear prop shaft. You may need a cv jointed one depending on the lift. You will need to swap the cups on top of the 110 axle with the ones you have from the disco rear. Also you will need to redo your brake line set up as the disco is 4 line (hence ABS) and the 110 would be 3 line.

Thats about it.

Take pictures I want to see it done.

Ron

By Leslie on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:24 am: Edit

Exactly!

Valid point on the balance issue... but Warns are hard to find anymore, and some hub other than Warns in the rear w/ my Warns in the front would be cheesy.

Also a good point on the DL vs TT in a Series... but depends on what manufacturer for the shafts... I'll investigate, but I would think that it would be much more economical to use 1 material instead of different materials for different shafts. The full-time versus part-time is a MUCH bigger issue, though. Here, I think that it'd be resolved in the fact that I'm not using the Series for my daily commuter. When the Series is out, it'll be being 'abused'...

Just got your Warn reply.. THANKS!

At the moment, I'm thinking about bringing the Series to Uwharrie, but I may be in the Disco instead... we'll see... C-ya there!

-L

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:32 am: Edit

GKN torque limiters

12h001-02601 front 90/110 hub qty 2 tot: 390

12h001-02801 front 90/110 hub qty 2 tot: 390

Tot: 780 Pack & carr: 106 invoice tot: 886 brittish pounds

this was on 11/20/98

Do the math. 886 pounds is like $1300 plus another $1300 for the axles and you still don't have a front that is a strong as a rear with a set of entry level HD shafts. Personally I have better uses for my duckets.

Ron

PS but they are cool.

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:41 am: Edit

Leslie I know where you can get a set of warn hubs for 40 if you are interested. Reply to my email if you want it. I am just a little sketched out by a DL in the series II. I drive it around on road a lot and I think a TT would be my best choice. I need to retruss my rear axle so maybe I will take a weekend and do it all at once.

Cheers
Ron

By nadim on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:44 am: Edit

Ron,

my Disco is a 92 with no ABS
and i have a 5 inch lift and intend to push the rear diff back some bit

i think it s doable?

i will still think about it!

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:45 am: Edit

The comments about the series owners state of mind on repairs as compared to "Other 4x4 owners" is crap. Even Bily Bob With his 1969 F-350 is carrying spares if he has any sense. But if you go out with weak axles , having another weak axle to replace it with isnt getting you very far now is it? Well , it will move you aloing sure. But you will be favoring it. You will always have in the back of your mind that damn thing breaking again. Or , just spend the damn money , get the good axles and be done.
I am still not getting why anyone would intentionally ignore buying a part that upgrades a part that is known to be weak. Ron , do you just drive through "The sticks" ?? Cause I dont get your mentality. They are weak , we all know they are , replace em and be done with it.

Kyle

By Milan on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit

Just to add another tidbit of info on the DL. It does not come from my personal experience so take it for what it's worth. If you have an auto, the DL back-lash/slop induced behaviour is greatly compensated for by the trans. The auto trans keeps the drive-line (tranny, t-case, drive shafts and diffs) wound up, so when you get on the gas, there's no sudden clank as the slack is taken up. This is good on slippery surfaces.

I don't know how it would behave in corners if you drive in under power, then start coasting and then get on the gas. I guess some feedback would be felt even with an auto. However, people with this setup in vehicles with wheelbase shorter than disco's, assure me the auto vs. manual makes a world of a difference with the DL.

By Jake Hartley (Jake) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:59 am: Edit

1.Can anyone give me a source for TTs and HD shafts for a Series III? I need a little assistance here with anything else you can recomend for it driveline wise.

2. Are the Defender axle/difs assy's stronger? It would not be that involved to whack off all the coiler stuff and put a set of spring pads on it if all else was similar (steering etc). Has anybody done that?

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 09:11 am: Edit

Ok Kyle,
Let me explain. Yes they are weak, but they break from fatigue more than one quick stress. I also feel that based on how the disco is used, what tires it is on, and the driving style it gets that they are going to be fine. Will they eventually break, yes, but I am betting that I will be able to go quite a while w/o them and when I do break them all I have to do is swap out the axle which is about a two hour job at most. Especially in the rear. For 600 or what ever a set of Maxidrives cost I can get other things which I feel are better use of the funds. Now the cost of front shafts are riducluous so I am not getting them no matter what. Yes the 88 mainly goes through the sticks and cruises the blvd but the disco see some pretty heavy use. Oh and one other thing, if you want to prevent rear shaft breakage all you have to do is check the shafts every 6months or so, they will twist before they break.

Ron

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 09:18 am: Edit

Jake,
Great Basin Rovers sells TTs and HD shafts for SIIIs. I would recomend going to 24spline in the back if you were doing it. You need some minor kit to make a TT fit a SIII w/ the stock 4.7 gears, GBR will tell you. Defender or RR axles are stronger and can be fitted to a SIII but they are wider and there are plumping issues with the brakes, but not too big a deal as you have power boost brakes which should move the discs just fine, however you will need to make some custom lines to change from imperial to metric depending on how old the donor axles are and what year your SIII is. Hacking the coiler stuff off is not too bad and the steering is easily adaptable, it is fairly common in the UK. However, if you are going that far you might want to do a coil conversion. See East Coast Rover. Personally I am going to run a 10 spline TT with the stock rear axle housing in my 88 and upgrade to alloy 10 spline shafts, to keep my hubs.

Cheers
Ron

By Leslie on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit

Kyle,

Okay, FIRST let me reiterate my statement about it being a gross generalization.

Now, to be more specific:
My Disco is a daily driver, to and from work. I play in it a little, but lightly (I've still got too much left to pay on it to risk it that hard yet!) Does anyone actually carry along a spare axle shaft for going to work? I don't...

BUT! A Series driver takes along points, cap, rotor button, plugs and wires, lots of fluids and gasket materials, necessary tools, etc., EVEN when driving around town!!! It's a neccessity w/ a Series Rover.

Yes, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: IF you're doing serious wheeling, you should take along spares, no matter what you drive. But there's a lot of neophytes out there who are still doing small trails, they don't HAVE to have extras along ALL the time...

That was my point...

-L

By Clint on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit

Not to add fuel to the fire, but...

From a conceptual point of view, if you upgrade one thing, the next weakest thing will break when you wheel hard enough. So far we've upgraded axleshafts and diffs. Can the Ujoints/rotoflex/driveshaft take the pounding? What's next? The transfer case?

The best system is one which every component has approximately equal strength and there is a cheap and easy to replace "weak" component. That is why they make fuses. They were sick of replacing the whole wire when it burned up.

If you read these 4wheel mags, you would think that you need dual dana 60 axles just to drive on the rocks. That may be, but the cost/weight/lack of ground clearance of those things seems excessive. It seems to me that it would be better to have a light weight system with the torque limiting clutch.

This argument applies only to the parts of the driveline that rotate. Yes, strong axle housings and bearings and steering knuckles are needed to run large tires that generate large forces.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 10:55 am: Edit

Ron and leslie , I am starting to feel like I am talking to a wall. But I guess priories are different for everyone. Ron is talking about things he has witnessed with other peoples trucks and I am speaking from my own findings. His statement about the axles breaking from long term fatigue is way to general. You can drive a disco off the lot and break one in it today , it all depends on how you are treating it. I have broken axles. I have ARB lockers a Detroit and a TT. I have also broken a stock front Ron (Axle , not CV) , with the TT.The bottom line is that they are weak and should be replaced if you are planning on doing any serious off roading. Yes you can carry spares but thats just avoiding the inevitable. The group I travel with actually mostly has the HD and still carries spares (Shit happens). I will admit that my priorities often differ greatly from others. But I also see many many folks that are riding around with thousand dollar roof racks that are empty , they bought it cause it looked cool. It seems the cool things out sell everything else. I cant understand it....

Kyle

By Bill Gill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:00 am: Edit

that's why I'm going to start towing another Disco behind me - it won't look cool on the roof rack.

By Ron on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:10 am: Edit

Do lights count as stuff on the roof rack?

hehehehe

Ron

http://www.discoweb.org/alyssa/Lucas1.jpg

Actually we do carry stuff up there, anyone want to guess what is in the box?

By shotmywad on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:22 am: Edit

gas cans - you're going to blow me up - waaaaaaahhhhhhh

By Jarrod on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

It's all based on priority here. Some people think that piece of mind is worth the extra cost of replaceing stock or weak components with stronger and more reliable stuff. If you think its worth the money and you have nothing else to do with it, go for it. In many ways, that's how I am, I figure I'm driving a 35,000 to 40,000 dollar rig, and a few thousand on top of that, really isn't that big of a deal. Sort of a drop in the bucket.

Now there are people out there that do realize that they have weak components, but they figure that generally they're minor fixes, and its not worth the worry and money it would cost to beef up something that, again, is considered minor. There are over thousands of repsonses to which light to buy, which wench to hook up, what rack to put on. All it comes down to is priority, and its difficult and very unproductive for people who want to learn, to hear that "my way is the only way".

From my viewpoint, everyone has a good idea.

By Leslie on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Kyle,

I never said to NOT upgrade the axles! I specifically said "get a rear DL with shafts first", as I later clarified to mean HD axleshafts! Series or Disco!!

We agree!!!

I give!!


Clint,
There's been a long-running myth that the Series Rovers' axles were designed to break... don't believe it.

When altering a system from original, you're right... changing one part of a system will alter the rest of the system, too... so you can't just go swapping things w/o dealing with the consequences.

But if you strengthen the weakest link, then you'll have to be doing something worse to put enough strain on the system to break the next-weakest link. Then upgrade that link, and so-on and so-forth UNTIL you get to a point where most of the potential crap that you'll encounter is easily tackleable. For many, upgrading the axles is what it takes... it's not like you're talking about a hi-po 454 in front of that Rover tranny!

-L

By discomike on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 08:22 pm: Edit

I have read every post here, it's been a slow night! It has not been mentioned that Land Rover (or should I say BMW) upgraded the strength of Discovery's axles in 96 or 97 (not sure of year). This was enough to convince me to put ARB front and rear. I am in California with lots of rocks. I drive very slow over rocks not just for the sake of the axles. I have had no problems with the lockers and would buy them again. If I can't get past something with the rear locker on I turn on the front locker and get the hell out. The difference between stock and the addition of a rear locker is similar to two wheel drive and four, it's that significant. The front is less noticeable maybe 50%-60% of the rear's effect. Have fun and tread lightly!

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:40 am: Edit

OK , this one might get a little confusing . I have serious difficulty translating words into text (By product of being under the hood of a car for too long) But I want to address this "Chain" that everyone talks about and how these upgrades affect it.
If you were to start at the wheels and work your way back to the output flange on the transfer case you are fine , and here is why. The T case is designed to handle a certain amount of power flowing through it , that power then flows out to the driveshaft which is also designed to take it. Then it travels into the pinion which is also designed to take it. From here on is where you run into problems. The rest of the items after the ring gear are indeed designed to handle what you can give it ,but only if the load is distributed evenly over all of the components. When all the load gets put on one side or the other ,or its starts violently jumping back and forth acrost the axle , bad things happen. you see , both of the stock axles together as one are pretty strong .Its after the locker when you can apply all the force being transmitted by the engine to one single axle , thats what causes the failures we see. (Most already know this)
In an open diff truck its that violent transfer of power shifting back from one wheel to the other that causes the cross pin to break. If the load had stayed constant over all of the parts the problem wouldnt occur.
If you upgrade your rear with gears as well ,the strain on the transfer case and all of the parts up the chain from that is lessened. So you see , you really arent putting components further up the chain at risk when upgrading the rear.

Kyle

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 04:20 am: Edit

Kyle,
What you say makes perfect sense to me. That's why I feel using a TT you're better off than open diff as the torque will be distributed more evenely to both sides. This allows you to go slower and without spinning wheels that may then catch and break the axle.

However, breakage may occur as you start using the TT agressively and start locking it up with most of the torque going to just the wheel with traction.

Same applies to lockers, however, locker will do this automatically (so it will brake the axle for you, so to speak). With the TT, you're fairly safe if you let it do it's own thing. Once you try to equilize the troque by applying brakes, that's when TT tries to act as a locker and you can snap things. So if you want to do this, you should have upgraded shafts first. If you let the stock ones snap, you may break the TT as well and it defeats the purpose of saving money in the first place. But as Ron describes it, if you just put the TT's in you can wheel a lot with much more traction than stock and not break anything.

I'm sure there are cases where even a TT could be more prone to breakage than an open diff but generally it's very safe.

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 04:22 am: Edit

Bill,
If you tow another Disoc behind you for spares, make sure you have the upgraded shafts in your towing vehicle. Hehehehehehehe

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 04:22 am: Edit

Yes , the TT is much more forgiving , but lets face it. If its in there and you are stuck or spinning. You are gonna tap that brake....


Kyle

By Leslie on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 06:17 am: Edit

Very good description Kyle. Bravo....




-L

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 06:30 am: Edit

"Yes , the TT is much more forgiving , but lets face it. If its in there and you are stuck or spinning. You are gonna tap that brake...."

Kyle,
I thought you were the one advocating more winch usage a while back. Moreover, tapping the brake would be no where near as tough on the axles as hitting the button on an ARB with the wheels spinning (loud crunching and grinding noise). There is only so much torque that a TT will send to the other wheel which is both its limitation and the reason it is easier on the shafts.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:00 am: Edit

the TT will send up to 85% of what the spinning wheel has over to the opposing wheel. Yes , I winch allot but most others dont want to. And its been common practice for people to hit the brake to get a poor mans locker. More front failures are due to that then anything else. Not only do the wheels have to overcome the obstacle , but the braking force as well. This makes bad things happen (Snap , crackle , pop)

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:05 am: Edit

"Torque bias ratios of 2.5 to 3.5:1 range."
-tractech.com

Humm. Maybe my math is off, but that is not 85% and you would have the drag of the brakes on the wheel with traction. Not saying it is a good idea especially when they are spinning fast.

Ron

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:09 am: Edit

"Up to" Ron , you read too damn much man... You also feel that all are setup with the same preloads? I know different ... These are all setup by hand and some are tighter then others. Its the same with the detroits. I think maybe thats where you are getting your drivability problem stories.... I also as stated am not drawing this from a book or a web site. Its in the truck I drive every day..

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

Ok,
Help me out then. I know how the whole install thing works and I don't see how the fundemental way the TT works could change such that it would deliver 85% of the torque to the wheel on the gound. Please enlighten me. I do know how a bad DL install can make the thing a POS to drive. If I could get 85% of torque (as opposed to 100% with an ARB or DL) I would be completely sold on the TT.

Ron

Literacy is one of my many problems.

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:29 am: Edit

Kyle,
your description why shafts and nothing else need to be upgraded with a locker makes a lot of sense. Why didn't you just say that in the first place? :-)

Can you fit the GBR heavy duty shafts with alloy wheels? The extreme duty shafts have extra thick flanges and need the steel wheels, right?
Clint

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:00 am: Edit

The preloads in the TT vary , I think the 85 would be on your tightest ones. The tighter the preload , the more power gets transfered. Keep in mind that its only a percentage of the traction that the spinning wheel has. The wheel is spinning so it obviously doesnt have 100% lets say it has 60% , that would mean the opposing wheel would have some thing like 40% shot over to it. Again , this would be the best case. I think with some time they probably get loose. And their affectiveness decreases. Only time will tell. I have about 40K on mine now and it is still pretty tight..

Kyle

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:04 am: Edit

Yeah Clint , you can fit the flange with an alloy wheel. I have alloys on mine....

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

Ok Kyle,
Thats what I thought. Tapping the brake is nothing like hitting the switch on an ARB when a wheel is spinning in severity. I thought you were saying it gets 85% like an ARB gets 100%.

Clint,
24 spline GBR shafts will fit with alloys, if you go to 30s it requires more work (honing I think) and only an ARB is made for the locker.

Cheers
Ron

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:10 am: Edit

PS I think the winch discussion got to over 120 posts. This is a mild conflict compared to the winch "war."

Ron

PS I am trying to get a winching competition to happen at a major rover event. I will keep everyone posted.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:15 am: Edit

Yes , I would say this is mild compared to that....lol....Care to start another???

Kyle

By Ron on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:17 am: Edit

Nah,
I will just reread it all when the search comes up.

Ron

On the other hand $G has some new products out . . . Lawn chair anyone. hehehehe

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:23 am: Edit

Thanks Kyle,

I have never seen one, but I was under the impression that the TT works like this.

With a TT, grip wheel has 2.5 times as much torque as the slip wheel. With a standard diff, the grip wheel has 1.0 times as much torque as the slip wheel (they are equal). With both, a wheel in the air is 0 torque. It does not matter how much you multiply zero by, it is still zero.

With a TT, using the brakes on a wheel in the air will result in 1.5x the braking force available to drive the grip wheel. The grip shaft will see 2.5x the brake force and the slip shaft will see 1.0x the brake force.

I don't see how a TT can be setup loose or tight. It is all a matter of the size and angle of the worm gears. There are no springs. The only friction surfaces are the ends of the worm gears acting against the diff housing.

Clint

By pk on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:34 am: Edit

Hmmm,

Well, with a DL you must upgrade to HD axels. The detroit fatigues stock axels all day whenever you turn corners. The axels stress (twist like a torsion bar spring) to unlock the DL and that will wear them down over time. They fatigue, get brittle and then snap with alarming regularity on the trail. They might break off the road... but the damage is done at the mall and on the way to day care every day.

With ARB locker the axel problem is not as severe but HD axels are still important. While the axel won't fatigue in daily driving, the full lock of the ARB off road will still allow the driver to snap the axel with the stupid pedal. Let's face it, when you are stuck, that pedal is hypnotic. You will press it... so get the HD axels if you like to get home.

TTs? Hmmmm, I have 2 and I love them. I have wheeled plenty with them and my stock high mileage axels. They even lived through one of Moab's toughest trails last year. I have a 5 speed as well, so there is more stress on the drive train than with all your slush boxes. I intend to see how long the stock axels will last wheeling with TTs. When they go... I will let you all know after I walk home.

pk

By pk on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 08:41 am: Edit

Clint,

Tractec would dissagree. They will bias a TT how ever you like. Infact, I had them set up a front with a custom light preload.

Now... the preload doesn't effect the ultimate amount of torque bias (I don't think). What it does effect is the static torque bias.

pk

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:19 am: Edit

They must shim them or something...

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 11:42 am: Edit

Actually, I think they use different steepness on the worms. I think the steeper they get the more torque they can exert on the housing.

By michel on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 12:06 pm: Edit

Ron,

I broke my stock front short shaft a while ago and have no lockers. On this particular day I wasen't in anything unusual, (read deep shit) but I guess it was tired. So, if I break stock shaft with open diff, I sure as hell will break even quicker with lockers. In the end though, the only thing that matters is having a winch to get you back.....

Michel

By nadim on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 12:10 pm: Edit

michel...

actually, i am guessing the reason you broke the half shaft is because the tire lifted, spun like crazy, and landed, the shock of which broke it...on the other hand, if you have a locker, then the lifted tire would not recieve a massive shock when landing...hence, no breakage...

i am 100% certain that an ARB with 24 splined 1.25" axles with up to 32" tires will not be in trouble, as long as you are nice the the disco!

By michel on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 12:33 pm: Edit

We'll, no.

It broke because it was tired and old.

The exact situation was one tire in slipery stuff, on tire on rocky stuff but still wet and muddy, apply some break, a bit of gas and snap. Nothing drastic, but still to much stress. The poor man locker method ends up being quite expensive.

Michel

By Andrew Parker on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Clint,

Put ARB's in both ends and I think you will find you get the best of everything. The compressor and air line routing needs to be well addressed as does the drilling and setting of the third members ring gear and bulkhead fitting. My experience has been once you lock them everything is turning at the same rate so those no traction megga wheel spinning occasions go away. Needless to say both the trail and your rig get the easy treatment when your contact with the ground is two wheels at opposite corners of the rig.

By Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Thats IF the ARB decides to work that day.....


Kyle

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Why do ARBs fail?
A dried up seal?
Every air tool I know of needs lubrication to function properly.
Is the oring lubricated from the diff oil or from the air supply?

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Milan,

I think the worm pitch changes the overall bias ratio, not the preload.

Clint

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Clint,
You're probably right. I still don't know how they pre-load them and I can't find the article on the innards. The one we just broke was sent to TracTech, so we may not see it for a while.

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Clint,
I think the ARB's faile eventually as the seals they use are not oil-proof but oil-resistant - if that makes sense. I.e. they do eventually get "eaten" by the oil and the locker starts leaking.

However, it's just hear-say and I have yet to hear a 'for-sure' explanation. I'd like to get one and find out for myslef but I'd rather spend the money on 2 TT's. I'm waiting for the electric TT/Locker.

By Clint on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

I would be happy with a reliable cable operated locker. I think KAM makes one. I would even be happy with a get dirty manual lever on the axle.
Why didn't LR just include something stock???

Is the electric locker TT for real or just BS?

Clint

By jj on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

All this locker talk got me itching to go out and wheel... Anyone for some Pine Barrens?

By Milan on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 07:52 pm: Edit

The electric locker is for real. I just don't know how soon for Rover axles. I would like it very much as I prefer LSD to open diffs anywhere, even street. Then you'd have the choice of just pushing a button and lock it up. I can't wait.

I too like the lever idea (our old military trucks used to have them) but I don't like the lockers like ARB, KAM, OX for their "open" mode.

By Clint on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 10:50 am: Edit

Milan,
Do you have snow and ice where you live? I live in Michigan. That is a good reason to have open diffs. One wheel slipping is like a safety valve that keeps you pointed straight ahead.
Clint

By Milan on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Clint,
I'm in Alberta, Canada. Snow and ice is why I prefer LSD's. Way more traction. They do cause you to go sideways when you start spinning a lot but I'm used to that and actually like it as I can steer the car using my throttle when going around a turn. This is with RWD.

On the Disco, I think this will be more of a non-issue and it has full-time/permanent 4wd. This means more traction all the time.

However, I understand that this is a very personal thing and I realize others have different wants/tastes/needs/preferences.

By Discosaurus on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 10:34 am: Edit

The legend of DL's being scary in the snow is
just that, a legend. At least with a 100" wheel-
base Disco.

I've been driving a DL'ed Disco in snow for years
with no significant on-road handling issues. The
only time you even notice it is if you gas it on
a slick off-camber surface. Then the truck's back
end wants to head downhill...

keith
discosaurus

By Milan on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I'm more worried about the on-throttle/off-throttle behavior on an icy, off-camber curve. Unlocking the different side axle shafts has to have some effect. Plus, I believe every rumor has a bit of truth to it.

But as I stated before, I too think that the 100" wheelbase and the auto-trans make it more than livable in a Disco.

For my driving, I'd have to try the DL myself before making a decission to buy it.