By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 03:47 pm: Edit| Subtopic | Posts | Updated |
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 03:47 pm: Edit |
Since the first one got SO long, thought it might be better to start a continuation of it here to shorten download time, and save a bit of scrolling.
-L
| By KJ on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 05:31 pm: Edit |
Good idea, Leslie. Now, where's my laugh of the day from you? You know I need that....(G)
As for terrorism, we're still dealing with the fall out from the disaster with the kids we teach here. I had to have another conference with a dad of one of my pupils yesterday. He had NO clue his daughter was so traumatized. She melted down on me again on Thursday but had been stuffing her feelings around her folks I guess. Really nice people and very concerned parents. I'm hoping they get her squared away soon. I've felt like the kid with his finger in the dike, everywhere I looked the past two weeks people were leaking and I was running out of fingers. It's slowly getting better.
BTW, one of my adult pupils who is in a Federal position within law enforcement said a memo was sent out to their offices this week saying the war could last ten years. No clue what form it will take of course, but obviously they are preparing in some quarters for a long engagement. Let's hope that worst care scenario doesn't come true.
Karen 
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 07:33 pm: Edit |
I read an interesting article the other day that was written a few years ago that actually named DC and Manhattan as primary terrorist targets w/in the next couple of years at that time. !!!! In that article, the author discussed a collective awareness of the impending 'Big Bad Event', that everyone had a sub-conscious feeling that something was going to happen. It actually pointed at asteroid movies and alien invasion movies, etc., as being a product of Hollywood picking up on such.
Honestly, I wouldn't subscribe to that, but I do find it odd that I'd been wondering when the next military campaign would come along.... Looking at history from my military background, there's a pretty regular cycle of the US getting involved in something somewhere in the world, and we were about due. The military starts to 'rust', and has a lot of built-up energy when it doesn't get 'used'... I really think that we've been itching to shed ourselves of the Vietnam stigma. We thought the Gulf War was going to do such, but it didn't happen because it was too tidy and clean and neat, and didn't follow through to finish the job of taking Saddam out of power. We tried again in Somalia and Bosnia and Kosovo, but the situations weren't right... From a fellow I was in infantry school with getting killed in the Mogadishu incidents (Somalia, we realized, had the potential to be uglier than Vietnam so we pulled the plug and got out of there) to the UN piddling in the Balkans keeping it from being 'our' show.
So, after the tragedy occurred, our response has been "Go Get 'Em!!". It's something that I think we've needed to do since '83 (Beruit), but have been keeping on the backburner. I'm glad that we're finally addressing it, but....
It IS going to be a long job. Not just because of Afganistan. Yes, it's a difficult bit of real-estate, but we're dealing with a very different type of situation. Unconventional isn't really even good, because it's quite a bit different than your 'normal' 'unconventional' war.
I think we'll get in there, clean out the training camps (with some, but not a tremendous amount of) difficulty. Then we'll turn towards Iran and Iraq. That's when it's gonna hit the fan. Lots of countries are supporting us now, and hitting camps in Afganistan isn't going to stir the international pot much, but it'll not accomplish a lot in-and-of itself. To get to the problem, it'll require going into other countries, ones that WILL get pissed when we try it, and that's when it'll start to sour.
I'm hoping it won't, but that's what I'm expecting. Hopefully it'll go as well as the Gulf War did, but I'm not counting on it at all.
IMHO, YMMV....
-L
PS: You're a teacher? My wife is... I used to teach, but I really got tired of having these kids in my college classes who possessed less basic-knowledge skills than my daughter (who is in elementary school). Best o' luck to ya!
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 07:38 pm: Edit |
Oh, and for a laugh....
My 6-year-old son got a balloon at dinner this evening. We left it in the Disco when we went into a bookstore afterwards. By the time we left, the helium had already leaked out enough to keep it from floating much by itself. So he took the string off of it and let it float up against the net-pockets and said "That's the problem, too much weight! Now it's better!" We were tickled by his declaration of his solution.... guess you had to be there....
-L
| By mongo on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 07:42 pm: Edit |
I don't think the reality of this has hit yet. My best friend is still working in the PIT that was the WTC, and he's told me several times that they haven't even scratched the surface...as for the aspect of the WAR...think about it, were dealing with people(if you can call them that) who aren't fighting for a cause, they are fighting for a religous belief that is only inflamed by any response we can think of.
The reality is that are about to fight a war with a part of the human race that find its comfort in sacaficing thier life in the pursuit of a better place. I hope someone reads this and explains how killing innocent people betters themselves...
So, someone who believes in this faith, please, not only tell me, but tell the world how this is right. I hope that those who committed this not bask in the rewards of such as deplorable act, but burn in hell...
I took part in one of many gatherings to show my FAITH in what AMERICA stands for, LIFE,LIBERTY AND THE PUSUIT OF HAPPINESS. BE PROUD, STAND TALL, STAND TOGETHER. Let those who strike against US feel the wrath of the sleeping giant that they have awoken.
Frank
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 08:03 pm: Edit |
Frank,
I'm not of that religion, but what I'm understanding is that this isn't normal Islam, but a fanatical subset. This sub-set's particular view is that anyone who supports capitalism isn't innocent, and therefore a legit target.
Several interviews with serious Islam experts that I listened to the other day really pointed out that terrorism as such is completely wrong from their point-of-view. A jihad is supposed to be an internal struggle with your personal demons in a self-purification from sin... Mohammed originally was a fighter, but when he 'took' Mecca, it was by putting down all weapons and marching in as pilgrims.
I don't know how familiar you are with Old versus New Testament, but for an analogy: In the Old Testament it is rather clear that you aren't supposed to eat pork, etc.; in the New Testament, it's says that there isn't a problem with such. Or, maybe more relevant, the Old Testament declares "an eye for an eye" but the New Testament changes that with the "turn the other cheek". So, the Bible says one thing earlier that later parts of it change.
So, someone can take the Koran and read one part out of it early on, and ignore the later parts, and come up with an idealogy that is skewed for their personal desires. Sick, eh?
Oh, BTW... Once, a chaplain was asked about why he was supporting the military, given the 'turn the other cheek" statement. His reply: "Yes, but we only have two cheeks"....
-L
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 08:12 pm: Edit |
Not that I'm advocating such, but here's a post from another board that had an intersting bit of history to it:
++++++++++++++
Food for thought....
Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.
All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.
Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.
They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.
++++++++++++
Not "politically correct" by any stretch, but it DID stop terrorism there for awhile...
-L
| By Kyle on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 04:16 am: Edit |
Intersting,,,,,very interesting.... I think I like it... Bury nice big ole hog with each one..
Kyle
| By E Snyder on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 12:25 pm: Edit |
"Not politically correct by any stretch..." Thank goodness! We have walked that walk of ignorance and bliss far too long, smug in our thoughts that we really had to worry about things like that. The rest of the world does not think like we do. Period. To be effective in the rest of the world, sometimes we have to think like they do. It horrifies our modern, intellectual, bullshit sensibilities when we hear a story like described above, but many of the people we are up against still think exactly like that story.
Have you seen the Discovery channel documentary about the Taliban? Murdering women in a stadium full of cheering people because they went to school? Or looked at a man unveiled? I wish every person in this country was made to watch that footage, at least twice. Perhaps then it might sink in that the response we have to make has to be complete.
Sorry I brought my soapbox, but I couldn't resist.
PS- And the way Tony Blair has been talking, hanging Old Glory off of British aluminum doesn't seem a conflict at all!
PPS- I have seen several rovers in the recent footage from Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.
Enoch
| By mongo on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit |
I really like what e. synder said, people in this country need to open thier eyes to what the rest of the world thinks, and does...
Frank
| By Kyle on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 03:16 pm: Edit |
Thats pretty obvious Frank but I dont think you will see that happening. When you start talking about it here you are considered stupid and inhumane. Well , thats what you are dealing with here. Think about this whole thing real hard. These guys thought nothing of those folks on the plane with them and they were right there. They knew all the people on that plane would die and they could look them right in the face as they were doing it. You can maybe look at a building as just a building and not innocent human lives but they damn sure couldnt do that with the passengers on the planes. Thats what you are fighting. I dont think you can use "Proper" ideology when dealing with them or getting at them. Others will argue that to the bitter end but thats the way it is.
Kyle
| By mongo on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 03:29 pm: Edit |
I totally agree Kyle, Whats' it going to take to prove that being moral with idiots like this doesn't work. I think it's time to create a "proper" ideology for dealing with people who have no remorse. F@#K what the world thinks and take these assholes out. The politically correct aspect of this is that some think by eliminating Bin Laden will stop this. NOT, you have to take out his family, his followers, his goat, and evevything else that relates to him. I guess I just have no concern for anyone like that...
Frank
| By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit |
Sad, but true. You can't use reason or logic when dealing with religious fanatics. That's why religion is such a powerful force. For someone who truly believes something, there is no alternatives, there is no other way of looking at things. They are right, and that's it. Period. In order to kill that belief, you have to kill that person. Brutal, but that's the way it is. It's us or them.
Axel
| By john on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 06:36 pm: Edit |
this will be the beginning of something terrible and beautiful.
-amante
| By Roverine on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 07:43 pm: Edit |
You know what else I've been thinking?? ... Birth Control. Did any of you see the smug smiles, on bin Laden's & el Terif's faces, when OBL's son married his "second in command's" daughter? They all have MULTIPLE wives ... they are breeding terrorists. S#@t, the terrorist breed like rabbits ...
Oh, wait a minute, so do our crack head "gangstas"...
However, hopefully we can deal (somehow) with those kid's anger, too. Oh, wait a mintue ... more ... how about Columbine, and the rest? Still, it's not what we're now dealing with now. ... 6,000 innocents dead!!
OK, one thing I know ... kids DO seem to rebel against authority and their parents (witness OBL & his country). So, do we kill the whole litter, or bombard OBL's (and his cohorts) offspring with "Boy Band" paraphenalia? I am not against hunting down and annihilating each and every one of these sickos. I think a certain other intellegence agency had it right when they went after the "Lieutenants" of the terrorist organization first ... the ones who could and did orchestrate the hits. Then get rid of the rest, ... methodically. Hunt them all down, and to whoever gets in the way, suffer the consequences.
So ... maybe OBL is just a big angry rich kid, with a bunch of other misguided ignorant assholes that follow him. And, let's not forget who helped train him ... Good God, what do we do sometimes?
Let's not forget to infuse funds to rebuild and UNITE our intelligence infrastucture. We must protect ourselves and each other.
Kim
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 12:28 pm: Edit |
Leslie,
Yes, I'm a teacher but not of the usual sort. I teach horseback riding. Great life, but I don't get those nice long holidays! Believe me, I do my fair share of correcting language usage, etc., and we have the odd math duscussion, too. I'll be thrilled if I can end the usage of the dangling preposition (G). My spine gets hammered every time I hear, "Where'd you get that AT?" LOL, such troubles, eh?
Karen, lucky and knows it ;)
| By Andrew Vick (Afv) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 12:39 pm: Edit |
KJ:
Riding? Hunter Jumper or what? My wife did that for years, but is now temporarily sidelined with a one year old. We're currently horse free, and while she isn't happy about it, our bank account certainly is. I keep getting threatened with "but she needs a pony".
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 12:45 pm: Edit |
anybody ever seen this site?:
http://www.debka.com/
it seems credible enough, but there are no concrete sources identified...
according to this site, we're already engaged with Afghanistan, as are the Brits & the Germans...
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 12:54 pm: Edit |
Axel,
I agree with you completely about religious fanatics, no matter the "religion". I use quotation marks as I take issue with the fanatics version of religion. It's amazing how precious few relgious nuts it takes to stink the place up. Another Jerry Falwell story, as he may be my personal favorite domestic religious fanatic: When PTL and the Bakkers were going down the tubes, Rev. Jerry approached them in " Christian friendship" and said he'd counsel them, take over their affairs, help them weather the storm as they got back on their feet. To say the Bakker's were never the brightest candles in the box is to understate the truth, and they trusted Falwell. He screwed them out of every hard asset he could and left them even more in ruins. O.K., so he's yet to crash a jet liner into a building, but he's strangling people one doofus soul at a time. I've said it before, the religious nuts walk among us, and they are ALL so RIGHT it's sickening.
A few months ago I had a LONG discussion with someone I truly have liked for years. Basically what I discovered was he'd been laying in wait for the right time to lay his new-found Christian trip on me. I had no clue how far gone this very bright man was. Two hours later, when I'd heard how I was destined for Hell (yes, he SAID that!) and I'd tried and tried to be accepting of his new fervor, etc., turning the other cheek MANY times as he wound out like a freakin' top, I said to him, "I think there's more room in MY heart for you than there is in your heart for me." Without missing a beat he said, "You're probably right." Right, there's that word again. He's right alright, and alienating people as he goes down the path to righteousness. I'm around him, his spouse and best friend a fair amount. I've never heard them be so ugly about other people as they've been since embracing the group deal they signed up for together. I gotta ask, where is the joy in that?
Karen, heathen and happy
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 01:00 pm: Edit |
Andrew,
I did the Hunters as a Junior and then went on to Eventing and Dressage. I try to teach my students to be proficient at a little of everything, all based on classical principles so they have portable skills. You ought to get your wife another horse, it will solve a multitude of future hassles, not the least of which is she'll cry less than your toddler (G).
Karen
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 01:54 pm: Edit |
No No No , not a Horse!!! Lets not start this here ... I dont even know where to start in on organised religion. Each and everyone is a contradiction in and of it self . For instance , if these dumb bastards are quite sure they are on thier way to "Allah" once we put a few rounds in them , then , why get so pissed off that we are coming to do just that ? If your belief is that strong then just hold still "It'll only hurt for a second,,,I promise" Seems to me that their religion is telling them they are better off dead then alive.. Hell , I am all for that!!! We should be asking "How can we assist ?" What bothers me the most about the whole "Organised religion" thing is the stupidy , man that really freaks me out. Last but not least , if one day I am judged I hope its by who I am and what I have done , not who I followed and who I didnt...
Kyle
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:05 pm: Edit |
there's also the inherent irony when you look at all religions together: there's so many religions out there that say you're going to hell if you follow any other religion. Since you can't faithfully subscribe to more than one religion, you're in violation of umpteen other religions; therefore we're all goin to hell. It's all such transparent bullshit. I agree with Kyle, if these little mid-east shits were true believers, they'd beg to be shot by the devils of the USA so they could meet allah and the 70 virgins in Walt Disney's magic kingdom or whatever bullshit fairytale they believe. We're begging to shoot them, they're begging to be shot. We should all get along fine.
| By Roverine on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:05 pm: Edit |
Amen, Brother!!!(hee hee I just couldn't resist) Actually, I couldn't agree more. I see so many ignorant hypocrits that translate their "religion" to rationalize just about anything they want it to. Kind of reminds me of the old saying, "the law is like the bible - it can be interpreted in 1,000 different ways". (Now, don't get me started on law ...)
Kim
| By Anon395.358 on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:28 pm: Edit |
Ok...after doing some erxtensive research on this sudject i have concluded the following:
1) Do you guys remember the scene in the news where all the Palistinien children were dancing around acting happy that America got terrorized? Well that was a file tape from 9 years ago! How is it possible that around 4:00pm in America is it still day-light in the Middle East? They threw that in their to make you us even more pissed at the Middle East
2) Did you know that 4000 Hebrews did not go to work(in The WTC and Pentagon) on 9-11? Coincidence, I think not. I have many reasons to believe that this attack was not done by Middle Easterns.
3) REMEMBER ALL THE NEWS THAT YOU ARE WATCHING GOES THROUGH WHAT I LIKE TO CALL, THE HEBREW FILTER. MEANING THAT YOU ARE GETTING THE MOST BIASED NEWS IN THE WORLD
4) What I think happened?,,,I don't feel like saying anything.
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit |
The Hebrews eh ? Damn , well , does their religion say that they are better off dead then alive ? If so I think we can help. Maybe NATO needs to start a new program . the middle easterners should really thank us if they didnt do it. We are sending them off basically free of charge..THey didnt have to do anything...WEll , there is that one small trade center incedent a few years back and , the continuous threats made by their leadership... A small price to pay for eternall bliss and chicks everywhere.. DOnt you think ?
Kyle
| By Anon back at ya on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:41 pm: Edit |
"What I think happened?,,,I don't feel like saying anything"
well now that you have, can you direct us to your proof of the 4000 absent hebrews? somehow I think this would have been brought up by now somwhere other than the disco web, even with the medias "hebrew filter" in place.
I saw the 60 minutes deal about the jews being the perps to get the world against the arabs, but everyone who is seriously looking at the facts is saying that the arabs did it. even the arabs who hoped against hopes that it wasn't arabs are admitting to reality.
you're right about it being night during our daytime (4:00pm eastern USA = 1:00am palestine), but I don't remember seeing those dipshits jumping for joy until the next day on my hebrew filter, i mean news program.
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:46 pm: Edit |
Well Anon395,
1) The Palestinian spokewoman sure thought that tape of the partiers was real, she was explaining and apologizing all over herself about it.
2) I have not a clue who went to work that day and who didn't. I expect you don't either, but that's just a guess. There WAS a report on the news this morning that many were saved in N.Y. because it was Primary Day and they'd stopped off to vote before work. (Let that be a lesson to anyone reading this who doesn't vote!). Remember, the first plane hit before 9:00 a.m., so even people working 9 to 5 might have been spared. As to raw numbers, I'd expect a great deal of people working in NYC to be Jewish, as is the general population profile of the area.
3) Ah yes, the old "The Jews own It, operate It, and generally do evil things with It" argument. You're not my brother in law, are you? And the money-loving Hebes would trash their beautiful monetary monopoly.....why?
4) Nice job dropping an unsubstantiated turd in the punch bowl and then leaving the party. Hell, even the idiot Matt Drudge claims SOME souces.
Karen
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:48 pm: Edit |
Hmmm , it seems someone has plucked someones last nerve....
Kyle
| By Roverine on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit |
Amen!! Amen!! Praise be!!
VERY GOOD, Karen! 
Kim
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 02:58 pm: Edit |
yeah people are forgetting that it wasn't 50,000 pure-blood honkie devils solely occupying those buildings, there were people from all over the world in there. I would be very curious to see a list of just how many citizens of whichever country were in the buildings at the time of the attacks. I'd also like to see the nationality list of the american citizens (since we're free and we let anybody join our union).
I certainly don't know for sure, but something tells me that there were very few, if any, anti-american arab "victims" in those buildings...
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:04 pm: Edit |
Hey Bluegill, I heard the WTC was occupied that day soley by the feminist, abortion loving, secular liberal gays....but that's just the story Falwell and friends are putting out.....
Karen ;)
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:07 pm: Edit |
Kyle, I think I'll call Heather and tell her what I have eleven of out back.....munchin' hay and generally awaiting visitors.....hehehe.....
Karen, "Ask Me About Religion!"
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit |
Kim,
What do you think? Too much gas, not enough breaking? LOL!
Karen, typing with one foot..... ;)
| By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit |
Of course it was daylight when those kids were dancing in the street. The first plane hit the WTC at 8:45 in the morning, which would be around 3:45pm or so in the middle east. The attack was on the news worldwide within minutes, I know that for a fact from speaking to my parents in Norway and Umit in Turkey as it happened. Why would those kids wait 7 hours before they danced in the street? Granted, our news may be biased at times, but lets be realistic, Anon395. To try to blame this one on the jews is just absurd. And for the record, I am neither jewish or an arab.
Axel
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:09 pm: Edit |
Yes , little midgette horses. You know , those shrunken ones,,,,yeah , thats it , thats my story..
Kyle
| By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit |
Karen:
Regarding religion, I think the late Frank Zappa said it best: "Remember, there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
As for horses, I have always been fond of them. My grandfather in Norway had 25 racehorses at one point, so that stable smell (you know what I mean) brings back fond memories....
Axel
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:15 pm: Edit |
good point, Axel. I was following his lead-in on the 4:00 deal.
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:17 pm: Edit |
This is turning into a Mr Ed thread,,,,they are little horses Ax , not suitable for carrying adults... You know , those little ones...
Kyle
| By Anon396 on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:20 pm: Edit |
Axel, it takes awile to dig up a 9 year old tape, you know The building is probably not in NY.
The people in the planes that crashed into the WTC, Pentagon claimed they were "of Arab decent," words can only go so far. Don't you guys think this is a little to advanced for a third world country to plan? Oh yeah, I'm not blaming anybody at this point. If it sounds like i'm pointing my fingers to Jews, i'm not. I'm just giving an opinion to work on so that we can break the 400 barrior
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:24 pm: Edit |
Hmmm , yes , very complicated. Take some flight lessons. Buy a ticket. Brandish some sliverware. Get in the pilots seat. Aim for the big ass towers. I can see this was truley the work of a master mind... It wasnt their brilliance that got this done. It was our ignorance . Please do not forget that... By the way , the FBI already found the homes they lived in and identified the guys that were on the planes. I suppose the jews drafted some rags for their plot? NEXT !!!
Kyle
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:28 pm: Edit |
LOL, I blame Leslie. HE started all this!
Hey Axel, how 'bout them HORSES? Care to share some more stories for Kyle's edumacation? BTW, I know the smell you mean, and it IS indeed a pleasant one. Horses, not poop!
Karen ;)
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:29 pm: Edit |
BTW, I hear Leslie N. Bright isn't even his REAL name.....
Karen, has sources.....
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:29 pm: Edit |
But not as bad as the big Horses,,,keep that in mind , Karens Horses dont smell much cause they are so small..... Just little fellas... yeah , thats it....
Kyle
| By Roverine on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 03:59 pm: Edit |
Heh heh heh, Kyle ...
Karen, what kind of horses? Thoroughbred, Quarter? Any Arabians? (no joke all, one of my most beloved horses was an Arabian, - a little squirrely, kind of like me, LOL) Do describe, please! ... I need some fond thoughts
Kim
| By anon397 on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 04:08 pm: Edit |
Kyle, reasearch more man. This took lots and lots of precise planning. If you have satellite TV, check out some UK new channels(NOT BBS AMERICA) or CNN international.
Maybe we should move this horse thing on another thread
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 04:13 pm: Edit |
Cmon Anon , they are idiots. You spend some time thinking about it. They didnt do any fancy maneuvers or smuggle planes in to fly into the buildings full of bombs. They simply took aver the controls and ran into some buildings. Man I work right there at the pentagon and that could have been done by accident by a pilot that was trying to do the right thing on any given day of the week. The flight path for national is damn near right over the pentagon. Dont play it up into more then it was. They didnt even train the guys themselves they let the dumb ass americans do it. That aint brilliance on their part. Its ignorance on ours...
Kyle
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 04:19 pm: Edit |
Translation "Right there at the pentagon" Meaning , in close proximity...
Kyle
| By Roverine on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 04:30 pm: Edit |
Ok Anon397. Have you read the article by a professor at the United States Air Force Academy ... written by a Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (former director Military History, USAF Acedemy)? It's pretty lenghty, but I selected a few paragraphs out of it for some perspective (9/14/01) ...
"n spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this act was not committed by a group
of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack
was committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't
admire these men and I deplore their tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been
made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it was a brilliant sneak attack
against a complacent America, but also because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30
years after we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the formidable Japanese in
the years following WW II. "
More ...
"For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself and presided over by men and
women who grew up with - and were promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy
and tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity" to strike with high
technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive.
Perhaps the perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves board the
hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens
and soldiers, not by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders.
Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our adversaries have time on their side, and
they will use it. They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American public
loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it
is generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far back as
Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the
United States of America without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war
cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they
returned. Although we hope that Usama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the
concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but also less audacious "sand in
the gears" tactics, ranging from livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution
facilities. These attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the average American to "pay
more and play less" and eventually eroding our resolve. But it can only work if we let it."
It goes on quite a bit, (I know, blah, blah, blah). It does have some interesting and great perspective in it though.
Kim
| By Kyle on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 04:35 pm: Edit |
Kim , I understand what the man is saying , Its sort of like going after a cesna with an F-16 , its damn hard to slow down enough... But , the action on that day didnt take a whole lot of thought. Think about seal teams or SAS and compare numbers and what they could do in a "Free fire zone" cause that is exactly what the US was , only the citizens were too caught up in "freedom" to see it..How much could men that had backing and real training actually have done ?
Kyle
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 05:25 pm: Edit |
Regarding Vietnam vs. 9/11/2001, the difference is this one is ours. Vietnam was poorly understood by nearly every force that got involved. Hell, the French bailed after just a few years and they were the cause of the whole thing as I recall. Vietnam was a case of action predicated by fear of a nebulus *idea* (i.e. The Domino Effect). 9/11 will create a reaction to a heinous act. There is little opposition about *something* needing doing this time, whereas the Vietnam debacle was always a divisive force in our history. My father-in-law, a devout patriot, sent word home to his wife that his sons were not to participate in Vietnam if their numbers came up. He was proud to serve, but I can only surmise he felt conflict within himself. No, this time it's different, this time they came gunning for us on our heretofore sacred shores. Yes, support from the American public will wane if it drags on and on, but the wave we're on right now will carry us a while. A few well-publicized victories will help, too, but those might be hard to document. This is a new ball game and if anyone tells you they know how it's going to go, well, once more, that might be my reactionary brother in law talking again.
Karen
| By KJ on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit |
Kim,
The equine breed run down goes like this:
2 Thoroughbreds
1 full Arab, 2 Arab crosses
3 Quarter horses
1 Morgan
1 Welsh Mountain pony
1 Standardbred
I pick 'em for temperament and performance, not breed (G). I love my guys!
Karen
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 03:45 am: Edit |
Doh! I wish I had brought the laptop home last night!! I feel like I missed out!!
I guess I'll take the blame and be the 'scapegoat' (which is an old Jewish thing, BTW)... After all, I AM the one who perpetuated this thread... LOL!!
Karen, you may want to check the quality of your 'sources' .... Come to MAR and I'll hand you my driver's license, old college IDs, etc.... Me, my dad, his dad, my son, all are "Leslie Bright"... each of us has a different middle name, though... at MAR, I'll be hanging out at the Thatched Roof Garage camp....
To touch on the horses' bit (bad pun!) I think Kyle's tring to think of "Shetland ponies". My family usually had Tennessee Walkers or Arabians, though I have a preference for a quarter-horse myself. Morgans are another favorite of mine, though a fellow here at work is big into Rocky Mountian horses, and has (unbeknownst to him) gotten me intriqued in the breed... (KJ, I like your list, BTW). I DO live on a farm, though we've leased out the land to a fellow down the road to keep cattle on... but he's partial to horses and knows that they wouldn't be in the way, so we've been considering getting a couple so that the kids can learn, too....
+++++++
To the serious stuff.....
One of the things my dad once told me is that friends should never discuss a couple of things, two of which were politics and religion; here we've gone and mixed the two... LOL! We seem to be handliing it okay, so I suppose I'll grab my cojones and wade into the fray...
I grew up in the southern US Bible belt, in a Methodist church. Not a Bible-thumper, but basically just a straight-laced average American kid. Went on to school, and became a geologist because geology made lots of sense to me (Blue, do you not agree that most people who become a geologist were originally in something else and discovered that they're a geologist?)
I'm wholly a supporter of geology, and Darwinism, etc... The Earth IS about 4.65 billion years old, and life here on earth IS a product of evolution.
But, I'm a Christian, too. A lot of my fanatical religious friends can't understand why I think that the Earth is over 6000 years old, and my fanatical scientific friends don't understand why I would want to follow a fellow who was nailed to a cross two thousand years ago. To me, I find a wonderful harmony between the two.
First, I think most people have this notion of God being an old man sitting on a throne up in the clouds. What a human-limited notion! If you break the earth down, you're looking at the interaction between chemistry and physics. Analyze that, and you'll soon find yourself describing the foundations of the Universe with mathematics. Once you get to THAT level, what defines those laws? Newton described them, but I'm talking about the WHY there is a gravitational attraction between two masses... That, to me, is part of God... something so pervasive throughout the Universe that it is the fabric of space and time. That's why God is unfathomable, because God is not sentient in the human-sense.
An odd thing about a few of the major religions, ie Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam, is that they are spawned from the same source.... a single God instead of multiple lesser superbeings playing god. Any of them can be warped into saying anything when they're taken out of context, but each one really does try to strive for an ideal where people love each other... (not meaning an orgy!). If everyone loved their neighbor, then you wouldn't have terrorism, or war, or hunger, or greed, etc. etc... No, it's not going to happen, that everything is eventually solved, but if as many people as can will each take a bite of an elephant, eventually a lot of elephants will be eaten.
I sincerely loathe anyone who tries to cram their theology down anyone else's throat. It goes against most major ideologies to do such. If I'm tooling along quite happy in my life, and someone wants to know why, then I'll be glad to share... by showing that there is something good to come out of following a chosen path, then perhaps someone can be enticed to follow. But it HAS to be YOUR choice, I have no business trying to force anyone into doing something "for your own good". That's why I love America, because I can do my own thing, and you can do yours... it's the "pursuit of happiness".
Do what makes you happy.
++++++++++
I've written a book here, but I've said what I have to say....
Email me, flame me, etc., whatever.... we can chat off-line about any and all of this if you want... or, if the crowd is willing, here, though I think that things as such should only be in a general format when in public... discretion, eh?
L8R,
-L
| By Joe on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 04:38 am: Edit |
| By Kyle on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 04:47 am: Edit |
Thats gonna leave a mark....
Kyle
| By KJ on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 04:59 am: Edit |
Leslie,
The difference in your personal view is it's not fanatical in any one direction that I can see. Though I expect you know this, I understand Einstein believed in God and had no trouble melding his scientific and spiritual beliefs. I have no contention with you about your beliefs, or your right to them. I'm all for happiness and balance in life.
My close encounter with the Christian Radical in my life recently went VERY differently. He told me that happiness wasn't the issue, it was the WORD OF GOD that mattered and nothing else. There was NO quarter given to any remote divergence of idea, even if it meant simply allowing someone else to believe as they wished and go happily on their way (which I was willing to allow HIM to do). Everyone other than his form of Christian were going to a literal firey Hell. The rest of the World's religions were flat-out WRONG, and he said those words and made no apology for them. We discussed, if you could call it a discussion at all, the fossil record (he believes it exists and is like, 5 minutes old and proves nothing about Darwinism. Indeed he's a big debunker of Darwin, based on a book prescribed to him in Bible study), the age of the Earth, scientific theories (all lies, of course) and even scientific text books. He told me in no uncertain terms that all the texts I had in college were not only faked up, but that the authors had publicly admitted to being in collusion and intentionally faking them, knowing all along they were "wrong". Funny, he never asked me what texts I'd ever had, but there IS no detail in this madness, everything is fanatically grouped together, as if THAT makes it true. Oh, and the "liberal media" were behind the faking of the text books for some reason. Uh, study after study has shown the myth of the liberal media is just that, a myth. Besides, back in the '70's when I was in college there wasn't even a HINT of anything labled the "liberal media". But, let us not let facts color our beliefs.....
It really went on and on, with him getting more angry, even as I struggled to understand (and GRASP!) his new-found point of view. Oh sorry, the WORD OF GOD. (So glad they've all got God's telephone number....I actually remember Ernest Anglely, an old televangelist saying he HAD God's telephone number, LOL!) I really was ambushed, though I knew he had gotten involved in some sort of church, I had NO clue his red wagon was so far 'round the bend. BTW, it's a Methodist church, but I'm hoping all Methodists are not like this.
The bottom line for me is how is it working in a person's life? Do they feel more joy? Do they feel more love? Do they have the capacity to give more love? Are they more generous in spirit? All I've seen from this small group I'm interacting with is hard-assed, close-minded, rote-puking lock-step. Before all this I never saw them be so condemning of others, so openly gossiping about others, etc. They were a lot more fun, too. If this is their version of Heaven, I'll take a pass. Funny too, they don't seem to be so loyal to honesty, marital oaths and the like, either. Don't know how they square that, but I'll bet they do. AND they bring their politics into the mix incessantly. Without skipping a beat they bang the drum of Jesus and conservatism, Rush Limbaugh, the "liberal media" and line it all up. It's ALL political with these people I know, and mind you, they are wealthy so their kvetching really has a hollow ring! Excuse me people, but the way *I* hear it Jesus was a pretty radical dude. One of the most radical seen to that point, for sure! It's not like he looked around and said, "This is nice, let's keep it THIS way!" C'mon, sober up, you don't usually get crucified because you tow the party line. Dammit Leslie, you got me goin' again, LOL! I'd say it's easier to talk about war, but it seems war and religion are often in the same conversation.
Karen
| By Bill Leek on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 05:16 am: Edit |
There is a difference between religion and faith, just as there is a difference between politics and democracy. Religion and politics are each often mis-used; in the process, faith and democracy suffer.
We have learned in this great nation that mistakes made long ago (e. g., slavery, genicide of native peoples, etc.) still haunt us to this day. The actions taken long ago affect our lives today. The actions we plan today need to be carefully considered before we act on them. Any mistakes we make today could very well haunt us for years to come. Protect ourselves and our friends, YES. Go after those responsible for this devestation, YES. But, do not indiscriminately blame any one race or religion or nation.
Always ask the question; "Where do we draw the line?"
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 05:23 am: Edit |
Karen,
You're absolutely right, they - religion and war - often find themselves hand-in-hand.
I'm still Methodist, and no, the example you illustrated is a very a-typical view for 'us'. John Wesley's point was that YOUR relationship with God should be between YOU and God. Methodism is a 'flavor' of Christianity; it is thoroughly traditional in the sense that it is based upon the Bible. The difference, though, is the attitude of delivery and personal experience. Any Methodist should be willing to say "Sure, I'd love to tell you all about Jesus". But if you don't want to hear it, they should respect that, and let each of you go on your merry way.
Fanaticals try to use fear to drive people into their line of thinking. To put it into horse-terms... some people think you have to horse-whip a horse to break it, while others believe that you should be gentle with occasional switchings when needed, while others (the "horse-whisperer"?) advocate a style which is basically being a friend of the horse... you get the horse to want you to ride it, instead of forcing it to do such (almost left that to dangling there!).
Many Christians will tell me I'm flat-out wrong, that I'm not 'evangelizing". True, you're supposed to, but that doesn't give anyone license to offend. What they don't understand is that by scaring someone into 'believing' something, they're really not believing, they're just avoiding persecution.
More than anything else, being a good Christian is an attitude of love. People talk the talk, but then go and talk bad about anyone who follows a different drummer. Just because "I" don't agree with or follow their drummer doesn't mean, though, that I should go and say such. What 'should' happen is that I listen to MY drummer, and do the best that I can... and if you like the beat that I'm marching to, you can join our band instead... there's an open invitation... but if you don't want to, then listen to your drummer.
IMHO, YMMV, etc etc etc yada yada yada....
-L
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 06:00 am: Edit |
"(Blue, do you not agree that most people who become a geologist were originally in something else and discovered that they're a geologist?)"
yep, I was pre-med and then I spent a week rafting down the Grand Canyon. Got back to college and took some geology classes. "These guys aren't foolin around, they get down to the root of everything," is what I thought. That's my main beef with religion for religion's sake - I can't relate to people who's only reason for believing something is because someone told them it was so. Someone tells me the earth is round, I take that with a grain of salt and then go find out for myself.
And Kyle, that's not gonna leave a mark - remember what anon said, it ain't gonna do nuttin
| By Andrew Vick (Afv) on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 06:16 am: Edit |
No kidding about regretting leaving the laptop at home!
IMHO, +horses=-Disco$, therefore a very bad thing. But as all of you know with significant others, I won't win, and I'll be happy to post pictures of the new equine when available. Maybe I could send them to Kyle to put on the PhotoGallery?
| By Heather on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 07:36 am: Edit |
Hello all, thought you would enjoy this...
http://www.fieler.com/terror/
| By gp (Garrett) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 09:27 am: Edit |
i have not been involved in this thread, since all i do with my family in my spare time is talk about this. therefore i am posting an article i find interesting from the washington post.
***********************************************
In the face of such evil, pacifism is immoral
Pacifists are not serious people, although they devoutly believe they are, and their arguments are not being taken seriously at the moment. Yet, it is worth taking seriously, and in advance of need, the pacifists and their appeal.
It is worth it, first of all, because the idea of peace is inherently attractive; and the more war there is, the more attractive the idea becomes.
It is worth it, secondly, because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: What happened to America is America's fault, the fruits of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support. This argument will be made with greater fearlessness as the first memories of the 7,000 murdered recede.
It is worth it, thirdly, because the American foreign policy establishment has all the heart for war of a titmouse, and not one of your braver titmice. The first faint, let-us-be-reasonable bleats can even now be heard: Yes, we must do something, but is an escalation of aggression really the right thing? Mightn't it just make matters ever so much worse?
Pacifists see themselves as obviously on the side of a higher morality, and there is a surface appeal to this notion, even for those who dismiss pacifism as hopelessly naive. The pacifists' argument is rooted entirely in this appeal: Two wrongs don't make a right; violence only begets more violence.
There can be truth in the pacifists' claim to the moral high ground, notably in the case of a war that is waged for manifestly evil purposes. So, for instance, a German citizen who declined to fight for the Nazi cause could be seen (although not likely by his family and friends) as occupying the moral position.
But in the situation where one's nation has been attacked — a situation such as we are now in — pacifism is, inescapably and profoundly, immoral. Indeed, in the case of this specific situation, pacifism is on the side of the murderers, and it is on the side of letting them murder again.
In 1942, George Orwell wrote, in Partisan Review, this of Great Britain's pacifists:
"Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.' "
England's pacifists howled, but Orwell's logic was implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were objectively pro-Fascist.
An essentially identical logic obtains now. Organized terrorist groups have attacked America. These groups wish the Americans to not fight. The American pacifists wish the Americans to not fight. If the Americans do not fight, the terrorists will attack America again. And now we know such attacks can kill many thousands of Americans. The American pacifists, therefore, are on the side of future mass murders of Americans. They are objectively pro-terrorist.
There is no way out of this reasoning. No honest person can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest person say that this attack is not at least reasonably likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people. To not fight in this instance is to let the attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, support this outcome.
As President Bush said of nations: a war has been declared; you are either on one side or another. You are either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill those who control and fund and harbor the terrorists, or you are for not doing this.
If you are for not doing this, you are for allowing the terrorists to continue their attacks on America. You are saying, in fact: I believe that it is better to allow more Americans — perhaps a great many more — to be murdered than to capture or kill the murderers.
That is the pacifists' position, and it is evil.
| By another anon a hole on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 11:04 am: Edit |
Here is something that we have to take into consideration:
Some guy from Iran called the FBI 4 days before the tragidy. He gave them a warning that some group, he wouldn't say the name, is going to run some planes into the WTC. The FBI basically told him to f**k off.
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 11:12 am: Edit |
thanks Heather, that was fun. I just lit the place up and wrote off the hostages as collateral damage.
| By KJ on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 06:24 pm: Edit |
OMG, I just played the game Heather posted the link for! I think I have a new addiction. I really don't have time for this.....(VBG)
Karen
| By Heather on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 04:18 am: Edit |
Hello all,
This link allows you to light a candle as your personal tribute to the tradgedies of September 11th.
http://www.studyisland.com/candlelight.cfm
| By Ron on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 04:45 am: Edit |
Where is my war?
I was promised a war.
I want to watch CNN 24/7 with night vision pictures and bios of all the weapons we have just like the gulf. I want to see x hairs and trucks and then no trucks.
Give me my war.
It is about time.
Ron
| By Kyle on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 04:52 am: Edit |
I think your "War" is already going on Ron. The footage will come later.
Kyle
| By Ron on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:14 am: Edit |
What good is it if I can't watch it on TV to make me feel better? How about some morale boosting? None of this super secret crap.
Ron
PS in roman times they used to line the streets with the people they killed. Sometimes whole bodies sometimes just the head. I would like to see some of that around here. Better yet they should be all killed like william wallace was before put on display with the addition of when they are evicerated their guts should be replaced with those of a pig (they would be alive at this point of course).
| By Kyle on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:16 am: Edit |
I like all of that Ron , I like it allot. You will get some video I have no doubt. Not just yet though.... That stuff takes awhile to edit you know...
Kyle
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:18 am: Edit |
OK so lets show footage of our secret assults on their camps live.. Um, correct me if I'm wrong but, then it wouldn't be a secret assult would it? Kind of hard to sneek around with a group of media following you around. I don't care if I ever see footage just as long as the job gets done. However, a picture of Osama's head on a stick would be nice.
| By Ron on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:29 am: Edit |
Not live but a short tape delay would be good.
Kill them midnight Afghan time see it when I get home say 8pm EST
if I don't see it (or a head on a stock ) I won't believe it ever got done
| By Ron on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:33 am: Edit |
Head on a stick not stock,
though a stockade of heads on sticks would be cool too.
Ron
| By Horness Spencer (Horness) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:52 am: Edit |
Ron,
When you've got the video sorted, ask Ho and the gang if they'll pop on DiscoWeb with the MOAB video!
I'll pay!
Horness
horness@hotmail.com
| By Anonymous on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:08 pm: Edit |
3 more until 400!!!
2 more after this post.
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:15 pm: Edit |
One.
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:18 pm: Edit |
Ta-Dah!!!
-L
| By Ron on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 05:55 am: Edit |
Looks like I have my war. I now want video:
Report: U.S. Special Forces in Afghanistan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. special forces have been in Afghanistan
(news - web sites) for two weeks searching for Osama bin Laden (news - web
sites), the prime suspect in the airborne assaults on the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon (news - web sites), USA Today reported on Friday.
Citing unidentified senior U.S. and Pakistani officials, the newspaper said U.S.
commandos arrived in Pakistan on Sept. 13 -- two days after the attacks -- and
began moving into Afghanistan with orders to capture or kill the Saudi-born
Islamic militant, or pin him down until the United States can launch air strikes.
Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke refused to comment on the front-page story. The Pentagon was
not making any comment on operations, she said.
Officials have said the U.S. ``war on terrorism,'' declared after the terror attacks on New York and
Washington in which nearly 6,500 people are dead or missing, would be an unconventional battle in which
commandos could play a key role.
The newspaper, citing Pentagon officials in Washington and Pakistani military officials with direct
knowledge of the operations, said U.S. special operations forces had landed in the Pakistani cities of
Peshawar and Quetta.
Teams of three to five soldiers, supported by Black Hawk MH-60K helicopters based outside
Afghanistan, began deploying into the country to locate bin Laden, concentrating their searches in caves
and underground bunkers in southwest Afghanistan near Kandahar, the newspaper said, citing senior
U.S. and Pakistani officials.
USA Today said the elite troops were having trouble finding bin Laden and had asked other nations for
intelligence help.
Quoting U.S. officials, it said several elite military units were involved in the effort to find bin Laden,
including the Army's Green Berets, Navy SEALS and the British Army's Special Air Services.
| By Daniel on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 05:59 am: Edit |
Hey Ron,
This is a very interesting article...
It says in this article that we had guys over there two days after the attack...but the government said for three or four days that Bin Laden had not yet been specifically named and they were "investigating"....
I'm wondering if this is an intentional "leak" or did someone say more than they should have...
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 07:27 am: Edit |
That matches up pretty well with what I had heard that Thursday night after the attacks. I'm going to leave it at that though as I didn't hear much just that we were doing something and I really should even be saying that much since you never really know who is watching. Not that I'm anyone important or anything just wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble.
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit |
The Special Forces were "investigating", ie, recon.
-L
PS: According to 'sources' of mine that I have kept, SAS were involved in gunbattles as early as Saturday the 15th (during Solaros)... no casulties...
| By Heather on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 08:50 am: Edit |
Dear Osama Bin Laden, Yasser Arafat, and Sadam Hussein,
We are pleased to announce that we unequivocally accept your challenge to an old-fashioned game of whoop-azz. Now that we understand the rule that there are no rules, we look forward to playing by them for the first time. Since this game is a winner-take-all, we unfortunately are unable to invite you to join us at the victory celebration. But rest assured that we will toast you -- LITERALLY. While we will admit that you are off to an impressive lead, it is however now our turn at the plate. By the way, we will be playing on your court now.
Batter up.
Sincerely,
The 270,000,000 citizens of the United States of America
| By Ron on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 08:53 am: Edit |
SAS were involved in gunbattles
With Wolf 110s perhaps
Ron
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 09:38 am: Edit |
I would expect so....
-L
| By Daniel on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 09:48 am: Edit |
Leslie,
I wonder what type of investigating they were doing? Was it the "Let's investigate who did this?" type of investigating, or the "Let's investigate whether we can get a clear shot?" type of investigating.
I'm going to bet it was the second type of investigating.
(I find the word "investigating" to be an amusing way to define what those guys were really there to do. Sounds like a spin job.)
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 10:28 am: Edit |
The hint in what I said was "ie, recon"....
Reconnaissance.
Most definitely lp/op (which I've done til I'm sick of eating sand and twigs in my MREs), mapwork, gathering intel on forces' location/ size/ armament/ routines/ preparations/ infrastructure, etc.
Having been a 0311 helps 'visualize' what's going on between the lines.
-L
(In my resume, one line describing what my duties were while in the USMC says "utilization of enemy-reduction techniques")
| By ryan on Sunday, October 07, 2001 - 09:41 am: Edit |
America is currently kicking ass
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Sunday, October 07, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit |
Along with others involved in this initial offensive operation like Britain, Austraila, France and even Germany. With help in other ways from Russia, it's amazing how old allies and enemies alike have come together for this.
| By Anonymous on Monday, October 08, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit |
Anthrax in Florida, whats next?
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:24 pm: Edit |
| By KJ on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 01:00 am: Edit |
Hey I've heard this story on the news twice, but can't seem to catch ALL of it. Seems some Land Rovers were confiscated, I don't know by whom and FROM whom, but I gathered the bad guys swiped them and refused to give them back. It's going to hurt seeing those innocent Rovers getting it from the air to ground missiles, but sacrifice we must....
Karen P.S. Gary, think this guy should be nominated for a Darwin Award? Let's hope he qualifies, but I'll bet he survived.
| By Collin on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 08:51 pm: Edit |
Karen,
He still deserves a nomination for a Darwin Award. After all, it is only a matter of time before he becomes legitamately eligible to win.
Collin
| By Kyle on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 08:21 am: Edit |
Hmmm , now by my definition of justice. He got the himself put out just a few seconds prior to a cluster bomb detonating overhead...
Kyle
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 05:11 pm: Edit |
Karen,
I know he qualifies for some type of award, stupid terrorist tricks maybe? Another good reason to wear sleeveless shirts during that long Afghan summer!
GaryK
| By KJ on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 08:39 pm: Edit |
Collin, you're right. We shouldn't be stingy, let's just give it to him now! LOL!
Kyle, I heard he lived through the cluster bomb, only to deep six himself playing with his anthrax home kit.
Gary, after what they make the women suffer wearing, the least they can do is wear long sleeves. Buggers, I can't wait until the Taliban is no more.
Karen
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 08:44 pm: Edit |
"I can't wait until the Taliban is no more."
Karen, that makes close to 300,000,000 of us!
Gary
| By Kyle on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 09:00 pm: Edit |
I keep sayin it over and over and over again. It freaking cracks me up. The ignorant bastards want to die martyrs and their religion tells them they will live in a better world then which they reside at this time. This is the religion they are all god damned upset about. We wanna kill em... I really dont see the problem here if they truley have faith in that religion. AS far as the protesters go. Why doesnt someone ask them that very same thing. Why are they protesting us for giving those ignorant bastards exactly what they say they want ? I mean , what in the hell am I missing here. I know we are surrounded by stupidity but god damn this tops it all..Even the two fags in the defender that time that spent all that time stuck in a little creek calling each other "Honey" and breaking up shit... I used to put that pretty high on my stupididty list but they have been beaten out.......
Kyle
| By KJ on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 10:21 pm: Edit |
LOL, Kyle, you are SO bad! Would "Mr. Honey" have suited you better? Heeheehee...let's get ranting....ask me about religion!
Karen ;)
| By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 10:29 pm: Edit |
Just nuke the Talibandits.....
| By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:31 am: Edit |
kyle, it wasn't "honey" it was "darling"
hehe, forgetful in your old age...
the reason they arent all happy about us just killing them is, though it is most honourable to die for alah, it is also believed the longer you live the longer you can serve him on earth, so they do want to live as long as they are spreading the "gospel"
rd
<unknowingly i named my dog "osama" about 15 years ago, and now it's too late for him to learn a new name... what am i going to do???
| By KJ on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 09:36 am: Edit |
Rob,
You could just call him "darling".....
Karen ;)
| By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 09:57 am: Edit |
Clone up a few hundred hannibals, and send them off to play with the Talibandits, that's what I say. In or out?
| By Ron on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:04 am: Edit |
Kyle,
Did the D90 have a purple soft top?
hehheehehehehe
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:10 am: Edit |
No Ron it was a white one with a black soft top and Rob is right , it was "Darling" .. I think Rob got a little closer and has better info as I drove off.
Kyle
| By Ron on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:12 am: Edit |
Maryland plates? 1994? If so it has a purple softtop now.
Custom made by one of them who is a seemstress.
Ron
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:14 am: Edit |
WEll thats fitting. As I said .Roberto has better info on it.. There was a small defender circus going on there with them as the centerpiece.
Kyle
| By Ron on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:28 am: Edit |
Its really nice.
Color choice is a bit subjective but it looked as high quality and finish as a badger top.
Ron
So it was a short bus safety rodeo, eh?
heheheheh
| By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:44 am: Edit |
well it was a black top when i saw the "darlings" last year at MAR.
there is definatly a more masculine one (owns the d-90) and his bitch... who is the oppitomy of flaming.
after first talking to him, i'm thinking... interesting lisp, then i see the rainbow stick and it all fell into place.
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:47 am: Edit |
was this 'couple' at MAR by any chance helping with the regestration?
"Are either of you homosexuals?" -Officer
"Flaming?" -Bill Murry
"It's a standard question." -Officer
"Flaming.....???" -Bill M.
"No....but where we're willing to learn......will they send us some place special?" -Bill Murry
-Stripes
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit |
Yes , you could call it that. I just always start to hear the Circus music play when that senario starts to unfold... I dont think anyone was wearing leather chaps , ask Rob.....
Kyle
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 11:03 am: Edit |
I think I'm hearing Queen playing in the background.....
-L
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 11:48 am: Edit |
to bad Officer Ponch was not there!!! he would set things straight.....or not so straight!!??
| By KJ on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 11:54 am: Edit |
I SO blame Leslie for this.....(G).
Karen ;)
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 11:58 am: Edit |
yeah.....me too!!!
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:21 pm: Edit |
Hey now! I don't swing THAT way!!! 
I'm the kind of guy who had to lean over to the wife during 'Will and Grace' and ask "What's a window treatment, a special type of caulk?" 
-L
| By Ron on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:24 pm: Edit |
yes but when you say caulk with a southern accent it sounds a bit like something else
Ron
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:26 pm: Edit |
the pic was not intended for you leslie. i have been waiting to use this pic and this was as good of a time as i could find. just hope no one is offened by it.
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:28 pm: Edit |
Gee, Ron, I thought you were on my side.... 
Think I'll drop out of this part of this thread now.... 
-L
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:29 pm: Edit |
oh man Ron......i was so going to go there, but i was laying off that one. that southern accent is nice. actually i do have a thing for cute farm girls with southern accents. farm GIRLS ok!!!
| By Ron on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:30 pm: Edit |
L,
I was just joking. No offense intended. Just too good to resist
Ron
| By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:40 pm: Edit |
kyle, i was the only one wearing chaps, but they were under my jeans nobody was supposed to know...
they are there for protection, honest..
karen, my sheeps name is darling. i think i'll rename the dog "precious"
yet another jack daniels terrior owner.
;)
rd
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit |
Ron,
I know, I know, I'm just dishing it back out, too...
Hey, YOU go through Parris Island with the name "Les Bright"... you get to the point where LOTS of things roll off like water off a duck's back...
-L
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 12:56 pm: Edit |
Now we have strayed from the original thing. Yeah a defender full of flamers stuck in a creek is good. But something just aint right in the middle east. Maybe some Middle easterner can set me straight? If the "leaders" are that damn dumb how god damn dumb must the "Followers" be ?
Kyle
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit |
Maybe I need to rephrase that. "Got muslims ?" Anyone ? There has to be some surfing here that can add some clarity to this thing...
Kyle
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 01:06 pm: Edit |
without getting to involved......dumber than a defender full of flamers stuck in a creek. and that's dumb.
i mean really. i cannot speak for all of us i suppose, but i feel they are going to start pulling all kinds of shit at this point to try and get people to rally around them. they see what is happening and are desperate to get others to 'join' and see their cause and ideas. they are starting to feel more and more isolated. that has to be putting some major stress on them.
deparation is taking hold and their reasoning is going to get more warped according to us (western culture), as well as, those of middle eastern decent.
| By Kyle on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 01:16 pm: Edit |
Garret , it has to be warped to anyone with a brain bigger then a pea. They come on TV and they taunt us and they say they are more then willing to die. In fact , some would rather die. So they do some dumb shit here that will no doubt bring that very thing on and then they complain when we come to give them what they wanted in the first place... No one else is seeing the problem here? And if they are too ignorant to look at their actions and statements and pick out what is painfully idiotic they have some big problems that go way beyond bombs being dropped ...
Kyle
| By gp (Garrett) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 01:33 pm: Edit |
i agree kyle. i am just saying that they are going to get more and more desperate and will do and say just about anything to try and save face wherever they can. who knows what they are capable of.....look at what they have done so far. what can we expect? just about anything i suppose. i cannot understand these people.......and i think most us feel that way.
| By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 03:36 pm: Edit |
kyle this is what i was talking about the other day
reality is just a figment of our imaginations and they are living in a different reality... it cannot be
argued. they can rationalize things in a completely different way, and to them it is true.
this is food for thought too...
Quote:"One can even set up quite
ridiculous cases. A cat is
penned up in a steel
chamber, along with the
following diabolical device
(which must be secured
against direct interference by
the cat): in a Geiger counter
there is a tiny bit of
radioactive substance, so
small that perhaps in the
course of one hour one of
the atoms decays, but also,
with equal probability,
perhaps none; if it happens,
the counter tube discharges
and through a relay releases
a hammer which shatters a
small flask of hydrocyanic
acid.
If one has left this entire
system to itself for an hour,
one would say that the cat
still lives if meanwhile no
atom has decayed. The first
atomic decay would have
poisoned it. The Psi function
for the entire system would
express this by having in it
the living and the dead cat
(pardon the expression)
mixed or smeared out in
equal parts."
It is typical of these cases
that an indeterminacy
originally restricted to the
atomic domain becomes
transformed into
macroscopic indeterminacy,
which can then be resolved
by direct observation. That
prevents us from so naively
accepting as valid a ``blurred
model'' for representing
reality. In itself it would not
embody anything unclear or
contradictory. There is a
difference between a shaky
or out-of-focus photograph
and a snapshot of clouds
and fog banks."
What Does All This Mean?
Now, according to Schrodinger's theory
as I understand it (and that's saying very
little), the above cat's state is as of this
very moment exactly alive and dead
(though technically, 100% dead and
100% alive at the same time -- hence the
paradox) ...until someone opens this here
bag, that is.
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 04:11 pm: Edit |
Oh boy Rob.....
(Bite my tongue.... bite my tongue....)
Rob, If you're talking about quantum mechanics, sure....
But IN REALITY the cat IS alive OR dead, NOT BOTH!
Those folks over there ARE on THIS planet, under the same Sun, breathing the same air, eating food and farting and wanting to grab that cutie's ass... they ARE people....
Yes, they're raised under a different set of protocols, they have different operandii, but some of their criteria of desires ARE the same. All it takes is changing a few of their inputs, i.e. their religious environment, their poverty, etc. etc., and you get a different solution out of the equation called life.
-L
| By KJ on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 11:35 pm: Edit |
Not to lighten the mood or anything (G)....but getting back to "Les(s) Bright", I have a couple examples of names that are worse, and these are actually people I know. One pal from the local tack shop is named Larry Gayer, and he endured endless taunts at school of, "Gayer than WHAT???" Funny about that, I've known that shop and his family since I was 12 years old, and never once had anything about his name go through my head. Must be a guy thing, LOL! The next poor unfortunate, another really nice guy, was named Harry Sheets. Now, what the HELL were those parents thinking????? So Leslie, count your blessings!
Karen
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 02:23 pm: Edit |
FIRST TALIBAN MISSILE HITS LONDON
| By KJ on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 03:44 pm: Edit |
Hmmmmm, the bystanders seem strangely unconcerned.......
Karen
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 04:03 pm: Edit |
must have been a dud - only the head exploded, and since it was empty, there were no casualties...
| By gil on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 09:42 pm: Edit |
lol...that is funny stuff.. getting back to dualing realities, I think to say reality is a figment of our imaginations isnt quite accurate. I can imagine that im in Alaska, but im not. In reality im in Connecticut. There is no arguing that we live in two different realities, but these realities are real. and these realities are clashing...thats the problem. They cant understand ours nor can we understand theirs. as far as that cat stuff goes..i had to break out la pipa to fully understand that nonsense...and i STILL dont get it...
| By gil on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 09:45 pm: Edit |
oh and Karen...in 4th grade I had a teacher named Richard Seamen. i think we can figure out the nickname for richard and realize the torture this man must have endured...
| By KJ on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 09:52 pm: Edit |
Oh dear god.....what the hell are parents thinking??????
Karen....ICK!
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 09:59 pm: Edit |
He said Seamen.... Followed by the Butthead laugh
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:05 am: Edit |
On a more serrious note though... High grade "military quality" anthrax was found in a letter sent to a senators office on the hill. This isn't your cheap home grown stuff.. It was professionaly made.. I believe a quote was "This is the best grade anthrax that we have ever seen". Hope my fiance doesn't get it.
| By KJ on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:42 am: Edit |
Hey Eric, are you afraid she'll get it herself, or bring some home to sprinkle on your Rice Krispies? (G)
Really, the level of concern over this anthrax thing is way overblown at this point. Yes, everyone needs to be careful and yes the world is populated by nuts, but there are things in your everyday environment that could kill you WAY more often then your chances of contracting and dying from anthrax. Staph for instance is on every surface you touch, and will knock you dead in a hot second. Ever hear of toxic shock? I've had it twice for completely unknown reasons (that's the scary part, and yes, men get it just as often as women!) and that is nothing more than a staph infection gone systemic. Flu kills thousands every year, but it's not as exotic to talk about though dead is still dead. Car accidents, we all know victims. I'm not waiting for the meteor with my name on it nor am I waiting for anthrax.
I look at life like this: I'm careful, but in the final analysis dead is the abberation. Every other day you wake up alive, you only wake up dead once. Try to be vigilant, as always we should be, and relax. And be nice to K, lest she brings you home a little something extra from work (joke!).
Karen
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 11:02 am: Edit |
Great outlook, Karen!
-L
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 12:21 pm: Edit |
Anthrax came from Iraq. Time to stop being polite, strap on the steel toes, and STOMP THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF THE TALIBAN, IRAQ, AND EVERY OTHER CAVEMAN THAT WANTS TO KILL MY FELLOW CITIZENS. If we're wrong, and the anthrax came from Antarctica, Ireland, or Ohio then oh well, who gives a shit - they picked the fight.
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit |
We both have the same out look... That's why she still shows up for work every day.. My life insurance isn't high enough for her to do it on purpose.. Then again you never know ... Really though.. If your going to go your going to go.. You can't stop it.. Maybe delay it a little while but, in the end your going.. However her job in the senators office just makes it more likely that she will come in contact with it.. I just hope that it isn't her number that comes up in the toss.. At least the mail room now opens up all the mail.. Sucks to have that job right now.
| By Kyle on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit |
Karen , what would happen to your odds if people were sending these things to you on purpose ? I aint buying that whole "If you are gonna go you are gonna go" mentality. I aint going until I am damned good and ready to go... And I would be pissed off to no end if I disregarded good sense and basically let some Abdar kill me through the mail as a result... The odds are low unless you are in certain areas. His wife and a good many of us just happen to be right in the middle of a good spot here...
Kyle
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit |
Kyle,
But she's got that clause in there : "I look at life like this: I'm careful, but..."
I agree, there's no sense in ASKING for it, use some sensible precautions. But, don't become like Howard Hughes, either, or they will have won....
-L
| By Kyle on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 01:07 pm: Edit |
Well , if us living in a country that is more aware of reality means that "They won" . I say give em a big pat on the back. This is not something tht just happened. Its been around for a long long time. It may not have survived this long if it was in the midst of aware people. Freedom can make you lazy and unaware , its a double edged sword. Yes , there is a fine line between paranoia and awareness. I think a little paranoia is a good start. Down the road that will morph into some pretty decent awareness...
Kyle
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 01:16 pm: Edit |
Kyle,
You're running the same race I am, you're just in the adjacent lane that's a bit farther out....
I wholly agree that it's a VERY GOOD thing for us to increase our awareness. But there's no point in not enjoying life over worry. Yeah, I wouldn't suggest taking a historical tour of Israel over the next couple of years, but I'm gonna still read all of the Rover catalogs that come in the mail, instead of tossing them out because I'm afraid that the Taliban wants to kill all the rich Americans who drive "Toyota Range Rover Discoveries" by soaking RoversNorth catalogs with smallpox....
-L
| By Bluegill (Bluegill) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 01:37 pm: Edit |
most of America, or at least a good part - no, most of America has been walking around fat & sleepy with eyes half closed. now we're in alert mode - call it condition orange, defcon 3, or whatever you want.
some of us have been taught to be alert since childhood, now hopefully every parent is alert, and they'll now pass that on to their children.
and enough of this goddamn anthrax bullshit. Why are leadership areas of anti-American iraq still on the map? why are leadership areas of anti-American afghan still there? what's it gonna take to make us remove the kid gloves?
I'm this fuckin close to packin it up and takin the wife & kid to the mountains. I don't have enough supplies stockpiled to live on, so I guess I'll have to start taking what I need. That's when "civilization" breaks down and the shit hits the fan. Wanna see Charlie D's theories in fast-forward action? I don't.
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 01:38 pm: Edit |
You should always be aware.. However, I'm not going to live in fear.. I look at it as we are all going to die but, I'm not going to rush it along either.. Don't do stupid things and you live longer.. Do stupid things and you run the risk of a shorter life.. I'm not going to stop opening up my mail but, I'm not going to go out and lick all my junk mail either.. It's very easy to say that "Who cares I'm not going to let it bother me" but, when the person you live with has a 99% chance of getting one of these letters put on her desk it puts it in the back of your mind.. It makes you think.. Neither her or I am going to let it get to us but, we aren't going to ignore it either. All the other people in her office are getting tested cause they are all scared right now.. She said she will get tested if one of her co-workers turns up having it. Till then she is going about her work and life. I agree with Kyle in the fact that I will do what I can to keep living but, I also understand that some times it's just not in your control and that sometimes there isn't anything you can do about it. The only thing you can do is be aware and careful.. I did think that is was interesting though that they say not to wear gloves but, instead to go and wash your hands and then go get looked at.. Something about the PH level in your skin actually helps fight it.
| By Ron on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit |
I can tell you one thing if I worked in the senate building I would be on antibiotics now just for the hell of it.
Ron
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:06 pm: Edit |
That wouldn't be good Ron.. You would build up an imunity to them and then if you did need them they wouldn't work right. Can't say that all of what is going on hasn't given me a little education on some things though..
| By Ron on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:09 pm: Edit |
I am not talking about a heavy course or anything really useful, just a course of penecillin to get any minor bugs floating around.
You save the good one for when you need them.
Ron
| By Heather on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:16 pm: Edit |
I can honestly say that although this is a scary situation, educating myself seemed to be the one thing that eased my mind. I'm very aware but not so worried anymore...
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:16 pm: Edit |
BEER!! Works just as good..
| By Kyle on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:18 pm: Edit |
I agree with most here. What I do see quite often though is that people are led around by what they see on the tube. if some suit came on tomorrow and said that all threats were gone and the world will now live in peace and harmony ,a whole shit load would buy that and swear it to be true. The fact is , they need that. They need someone in power to lie to them about the state of the nation. They can then sleep better at night. I understand why its done completely but I cant say I completely agree with it. Our nation has lost its ability to defend itself (Civilians) if need be. The majiority would rather just wash this all away with a "That sort of thing will never happen here" . I am hoping that there are very few saying that now...
Kyle
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:34 pm: Edit |
Bullseye, Kyle.. Some people just can't deal with things as they really are.. So they need someone to tuck them in at night and tell them that the world is wonderful and they are going to be A-OK..
| By Roverine on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:38 pm: Edit |
Karen, Kyle, Blue, Les, Eric: ALL well said. There's a lot of good thought in each opinion that I share - I liked what Les said about running the same race - nice analogy! (BTW Les: I have a very distant 2nd cousin named Leslie somewhere in the south, and he is very much a man. Haven't seen him in years - NOT to scare you, I know you & he are not the same person, therefore do not fear being related to me)
Okay, where was I? Oh yeah, I haven't written too much on this thread lately because I feel like I will explode - America has been asleep at the wheel for years! We've been more concerned with BJ's for the President, and who's fornicating with who in Washington, and heads were filled with the "Dot COM' prosperity, and all our faithful honest hard working politicians were too busy bickering and trying to cover (up) their own asses ...
What in the hell IS Iraq still doing on the map??? OK at least get rid of Hussein and all of his flunkies and relatives. And don't get me started on that spineless spoiled assinine Suadi Royalty - THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE CAUSE OF MUCH OF THIS. A lot of OBL's network could have been nipped in the bud long ago - We knew it, we talked to them about it - THEY knew it, but stuck their heads in their sand (and we still just played along ...). The CIA and many others who are familiar with the situation over there has known since the end of the Gulf war they had a problem with their people that they were exacerbating with their mindless hedonist idiotic behavior, and they just kept on ... So guess what?! Osama blows up some barracks of ours over there, and the lily livered chickenshits cover up for him because they're afraid - The "working class" and common people of their country are getting a little fed up with the Royals selfish arrogance and western ways, not to mention lack of vision for their future - The Royals don't want to rock the boat, so they try to play both sides. Oh hell, I'm going sideways agian ... I better wait to wait until I can organize my thoughts (uh, that would mean never?)
Kim
| By Roverine on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
P.S. Heather, didn't see your post during my beginning rant ... I agree, I wish more people would just take it upon themselves to seek out a little education, instead of nervously shuffling around in "the big flock of sheep".
Kim
| By KJ on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit |
Well, not much time right now to reply in a more complete way, but I'll say a few things about life, risk, awareness, etc.
I used to work on Capital Hill, I haven't always been a country bumpkin. When I worked on The Hill I was considered to be in danger of potential kidnapping because of the detailed knowledge I had in my head about a particualr Headquarters. I was actually briefed about how to avoid abduction, etc. and though I thought it was a bit overblown I heeded the warnings. Being raised as a Military dependent I was taught from day one to be aware, to be cautious, to do things in a reasoned sequence of events, etc. The job I have now is an exercise in keeping people safe in a potentially dangerous activity. I know all about risk management.
Having said all that, I've come close to seeing the Tunnel of Light on several occasions but never at the hands of people per se. Bugs nearly got me several times and they are all around us everyday. I nearly died of Rubela (was sent home to die, but hey, it was the '60's, what kind of care was that?), had TSS twice and nearly checked out, had a whomping case of Lyme's Disease (usually won't kill ya, you just WANT to die) most of last year and had two brain surgeries this past summer before I met y'all. Now, all these things were bug-related, everyday bugs, to include the need for the brain surgeries. My point is this: You are FAR more likely to become ill, injured or dead from the commonplace among us than the over publicized Anthrax scare we are experiencing now. Yes, be careful, and in some additional new ways, but danger walks by our side every day, we can't let it rule! You're far more likely to be killed in your car as you worry yourself about anthrax than the damned bug getting you! The best offense is an educated defense, so get the real facts and act accordingly.
I wasn't being flippant to Eric about his fiancee, I was just trying to lend some perspective. I don't wanna go before I'm plenty used up either, but I try to control how I waste my precious life and trying to lessen one's worry load for me is a useful pursuit. I'd rather spend my precious time reading DiscoWeb and learning something or having a yuk or two than allowing some nameless, faceless, terrorist fuckwad get ahold of my personal head space. Nope, if the anthrax comes to my home, and hey, clearly I attract some weird shit on a good day, LOL, then Cipro becomes my new pal. And if I lose, well, I've given it my best shot. Leslie, promise you'll send up an insurance prayer for this Heathen, eh? (VBG)
Karen, feeling a little lousy but with luck it's just a cold....
| By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:31 pm: Edit |
Karen,
Gladly!
Kim,
Me, Dad, Grandpa... all "southern boys" named "Leslie", and I'm the small one at 6' 240lbs.... You should see my "little" brother, he does military-presses using ME! 
Come to think of it, most of the guys I know named Leslie were both in the military and from the south, too..... hmmm.......
Wonder if any others of them were left-handed, too?
BTW: Blue! Have you noticed the number of left-handed geologists out there??
-L
| By Kyle on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:43 pm: Edit |
Yeah Karen , I hear you. I have been down that road with the dude in the collar and and the beeping machines in ICU myself. Yes we face dangers every day. Yes if people were more aware on our roads we would be less at risk. No , I dont think that we should all go inside and stay there (The last thing I would ever recomend). But this is something that has a sole purpose and its being sent to do just that. I just dont like to be the one saying "Your chances are pretty remote". I would just like everyone to be aware of it. Lets face it. How much mail do you open every damn day that is nothing ? Throw that shit in the trash! If Anthrax never existed I would still be saying that. Its quite ironic that these dipshits chose the methods they did. I cant stand a god damned airplane and coming home seeing a mailbox full of mail is like broken glass in my brain. I hate that too!!! This whole thing is a good excuse for some misguided abdars to launch their own fucked up campaign at any time. Just be aware of that and give it the attention it deserves. Think of the rats in the subways everyday.... I am sure they taught you to not be an easy target Karen , in a nutshell thats all I am sayin...
Kyle
| By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:49 pm: Edit |
Ok,
Now I have been saying this privately for a while but I have to say that we have to fight fire with fire.
We should bomb mecca and medina.
I know I know, it is not an islam thing but tough shit. We can just blame it on some american extremists ot blame it on isreal. Fight terror with terror. I think it would make everyone in the US feel a lot better.
| By Heather on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit |
No biggie Kim, this particular thread gives me a place to come to find out what others are thinking and express my feelings about what’s going on... awe.. I just want to hug you all
| By John Cinquegrana (John_C) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit |
Just had to share this with you guys/gals:
I finally convinced the wife to come downtown and have lunch with me (WTC area). She has not been by my office since 9/11, I have not walked around much since then either.
We took a walk with the other thousand tourists (tons of tourists taking pics, standing on planters to get a good view, etc) and it's worst than you can imagine. There is smoke still coming from ground zero, bad odor and very dusty. Enough of that....
My kids bought me a mask (the farmer type not the military kind) to bring to work with me every day. I know it won't do me much good if there is a chemical attack but I really could have used it on the 11th (protect me from smoke and dust). I also carry a bottle of water in my bag and let me wife know when I leave work. We also came up with a plan of what to do if another attack occurs... I never thought it would come to this but like Kyle and others have said it's time to wake up people....we have to be more vigilant...
That's all I have to say, just thought I should share my thoughts with you guys/gals...
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 04:22 pm: Edit |
Don't worry Karen I didn't take it that way either.. She isn't worried about it and either am I. She is getting pissed though cause every 5 minutes one of her family or friends are calling her to find out if she is dying. It's just one more thing for her to look out for during her day at work. I am happy that she isn't opening up the mail for the senator though
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 09:00 pm: Edit |
Just so you know.. Further testing of the anthrax found on the Hill has determined that it is not a military grade anthrax after all it is a garden varity.
| By Roverine on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:11 pm: Edit |
Yeah, I'm certainly in no position to know what's really happening, but nevertheless, ... What a bunch of "wuses"!! I mean, they (senate,etc.) should have kept a LITTLE more cool about it and they could have handled it a little more calmly and professionally - I mean, WHO leaked the "weapons grade" shit, and "spores in the vents" crap?? And the media of course just went rampant ... Even if this was/is the case, there is still no need to panick so much about it. I can understand, I wouldn't feel real good about being in close proximity to this myself, but there is just no need to panick over THIS. They should be f*#%ing concentrating on where the bastards are at, and what they're going to do next, and how to get them!! They're out today feverishly watering the lawn, while the %&*## house is on fire. OK, I'm done with my rant for this evening ...(I hope)
Kim
| By Roverine on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:17 pm: Edit |
oooops, guess I wasn't quite through yet ... and did you hear that "the drug trafficing in the carribean is up by 25%(now who came up with that exact figure??)since Sept.11th??" DUH!!!!!!
Kim
OK I think I'm REALLY done now
| By KJ on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:38 pm: Edit |
Kyle,
You said (in part): "But this is something that has a sole purpose and its being sent to do just that. I just dont like to be the one saying "Your chances are pretty remote". I would just like everyone to be aware of it."
I'd maintain that the true purpose in sending tainted mail is to instill fear, not to actually kill people (maybe that's what you meant, too). Of course for sickos perhaps killing would be a bonus, but I think the inducing of fear, and the perceived power the senders feel is really the true aim. I do think the chance of dying from anthrax at this point IS pretty remote, but the chances of succuming to the fear the thought induces are far more substantial. This after all is the true aim of terrorism, to incite fear in the populace. I also think that this anthrax crap is not bin Laden's work, but more likely the twisted idea of someone else, perhaps even a domestic terrorist.
John C., I'm sorry you've had to deal with the horror in such a personal way. I remember well your first notes about it.
Heather, I thank you every time I put a hurtin' on Bin Laden Liquors! That's one way I deal with the anger, and strangely it DOES make me feel better.
Eric, glad you and K are pressing on as normally as possible. I know it's worrying, but we have to all maintain a grip on what is right and good in our lives and try not to slide down into the fear of what could go wrong. I speak with people everyday in my business, normal people who are scared shitless. I had a long talk with the mom of one of my pupils tonight. She's an anxiety-filled wreck and it's a shame. Maybe she'll feel a little better after our chat, I don't know, but I've been having a lot of these sorts of talks in the past 5 weeks. If it makes anyone feel any better, I had another chat with a dad who came to the barn tonight. He's in a position to know, and he tells me the new weaponry is amazing and awesome. They are rushing to fill orders of existing technologies and are ramping up the think tanks of engineers for new ideas. There will be no place to hide, caves will mean nada.
Karen
| By Kyle on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 10:18 am: Edit |
Karen ,lol , you been watching too much news... Are you aware that infection through inhalation is a one way ticket ? Chances of death are up around 90%. Ofcourse they aint saying that on the news every night.... Sure its to instill fear , but a good dose of fear soon turns into respect. I would rather use the word "Respect". We should all be aware of whats going on right now and give it the respet that it deserves. No more or no less. You can not control those that are scared out of their minds about it or their actions. In most cases they just need someone to lie to them about the whole thing and then they are happy go lucky again.
Kyle
| By KJ on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 11:38 am: Edit |
Kyle, there are a lot of facts and figures being bandied about on the news, and I'm pretty sure we'd be the last to know which are "true" and which are errant. My point still remains, you are in far more danger driving in your car, catching the flu or a host of other things than you are from the danger of anthrax, at least at this point. The mass delivery systems don't work according to many who know a lot more about it than I do. If they did, we'd all be in an anthrax cloud by now. Yes, it's a serious threat if you are opening suspect mail and whiffing it, but now we all know better about that, and I was never a mail sniffer in the first place (G). As far as fear vs. respect, you have a grip on things, but some people don't. Some never get past their fear, rational or irrational. I'm with you on due diligence, but then I think we've been pretty much on the same page there all along. The pepole I know who have expressed anxiety about all this are not one-dimensional dummies, they are just scared people. I can't be an expert on everything, but when I hear enough sources that I feel I can deem reliable saying the same things then I form an opinion. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but the fact is non of we lay people can truly know. What I can say for sure is that if I can stop a false stampede maybe I won't get run over in the meley.
Karen
| By Garyk (Garyk) on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 11:49 am: Edit |
When you think the U.S. isn't thought well of all over the world, read this editorial from a Romanian Newspaper.
Subject: Editorial from a Romanian newspaper An ode to America: Why are Americans so united? They don't resemble one another even if you paint them! They speak all the languages of the world and form an astonishing mixture of civilizations. Some of them are nearly extinct, others are incompatible with one another, and in matters of religious beliefs, not even God can count how many they are.
Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred million people into a hand put on the heart. Nobody rushed to accuse the White House, the army, the secret services that they are only a bunch of losers. Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts. Nobody rushed on the streets nearby to gape about. The Americans volunteered to donate blood and to give a helping hand. After the first moments of panic, they raised the flag on the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps and ties in the colors of the national flag. They placed flags on buildings and cars as if in every place and on every car a minister or the president was passing. On every occasion they started singing their traditional song: "God Bless America!".
Silent as a rock, I watched the charity concert broadcast on Saturday once, twice, three times, on different TV channels. There were Clint Eastwood, Willie Nelson, Robert de Niro, Julia Roberts, Cassius Clay, Jack Nicholson, Bruce Springsteen, Silvester Stalone, James Wood, and many others whom no film or producers could ever bring together. The American's solidarity spirit turned them into a choir. Actually, choir is not the word. What you could hear was the heavy artillery of the American soul. What neither George W. Bush, nor Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell could say without facing the risk of stumbling over words and sounds, was being heard in a great and unmistakable way in this charity concert.
I don't know how it happened that all this obsessive singing of America didn't sound croaky, nationalist, or ostentatious! It made you green with envy because you weren't able to sing for your country without running the risk of being considered chauvinist, ridiculous, or suspected of who-knows-what mean interests.
I watched the live broadcast and the rerun of its rerun for hours listening to the story of the guy who went down one hundred floors with a woman in a wheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian hockey player, who fought with the terrorists and prevented the plane from hitting a target that would have killed other hundreds or thousands of people. How on earth were they able to bow before a fellow human?
Imperceptibly, with every word and musical note, the memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragic heroes. And with every phone call, millions and millions of dollars were put in a collection aimed at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit which nothing can buy.
What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way? Their land? Their galloping history? Their economic power? Money? I tried for hours to find an answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases which risk of sounding like commonplaces. I thought things over, but I reached only one conclusion.
Only freedom can work such miracles!
| By Kyle on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit |
The odds of any of us being bitten by a cobra are pretty low as well. If someone boxes one of thsoe bad boys up and send s him to your house though ? I would say that changes the game. I would also say that your odds of being bitten by a cobra at that point were greater then dying in a car accident on the way home to open your mail....
Kyle
| By KJ on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 03:03 pm: Edit |
Hey, I'll show you change of game!
Yoo Hoo....Heather.....guess what I have eleven of in my backyard......heeheehee......
Karen, playin' dirty now
| By Kyle on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 03:05 pm: Edit |
Now that aint right and you know it.....
Kyle
| By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit |
Trees
| By KJ on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit |
No fight's a fair fight....what's that behind you?
Karen
| By Heather on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 03:42 pm: Edit |
Karen,
damn,,, you know my weakness ,,, good luck trying to figure out his
| By Roverine on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 05:35 pm: Edit |
Anthrax is not on my list af favorite things, but AT THIS PARTICULAR moment I am more concerned with at least a half dozen other issues (including getting wacked while at my ATM machine). Yet I do agree with the "respect" principal Kyle - at least it's snapped a few heads up. However, I'm looking at this whole thing a little more comprehensively I guess. Like, do we really know where all the nuclear material & arms that seemed to have disappeared from Russia are? Do we really know everything that other countries (and our OWN as well) have sold in the way of technology and materials that can be used for weapons of mass destruction, and to whom? Yeah, anthrax can be a threat - nothing to be taken lightly ... inevitably I'm sure it's just a matter of time before some sickos are able to concoct some more heinous ways to weaponize and deliver it, but I just think that AT THIS MOMENT, I have other things prioritized on my concern list that include taking out the F#***#'s that are sending this crap our way ... I have no doubt that there are some other countries either actively involved at this moment against us, and some that are unstable enough to turn on us in a heartbeat. Some of these countries DO pocess nuclear capabilities. I'm concerned with finding out where the terrorist bastards are, (you know, the ones that teach their children to hate all western civilization, and are more than glad to sacrifice themselves for Allah to wreack as much destruction as possible upon us?) and eliminating them. How do we possibly accomplish this??? (and I don't want to hear from anyone that we just need to wipe out an entire continent or two ...) Let's say we stomp a few of those terrorist asses? Then, what in the hell are we going to do after that? Will the majority go back to (like you said Kyle ->) "the happy go lucky" mode? That's what eats at me right now. I do not want to believe that is what's going to happen. I believe our country can overcome past mistakes in our intelligence gathering, national security, and handling of foreign policy.
Kim
| By Kyle on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 05:41 pm: Edit |
WEll Kim , How do you train a dog ? Its the same principle. You will have to "Maintain" that region with a display of force every now and again. If you dont you start to appear weak and vulnerable. You have to make them not want to do that shit anymore... Not by going over there and singing Kumbaya but by making them just flat out scared to death of what it will bring on them.. Thats how you train a dog , thats how you train an ignorant people....
Kyle
| By Ron on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 06:02 pm: Edit |
Kyle man.
Why give them a chance? fuck show of force
You have to eliminate the culture. basically you destroy their culture first (total war) and then you basically rebuild/westernize them and if they don't go along you kill them some more.
Pretty simple. Worked before it will work again.
World is just too PC/diversity crazy to deal with it now.
You don't drop food you let them starve soon there will be more INTERAL disturbance, and then all culture is gone and in 50 years they will be trading pokeman cards and buying 50s automobiles.
Ron
| By Roverine on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 06:17 pm: Edit |
Yeah, I have to say I agree Kyle, that is pretty much the way I feel about it. There is absolutely no reasoning with these people, and you can trust their diplomacy and "word" about as far as you could throw that whole damn land mass.
Kim
-But I do hope we've learned something from all of this, and that we never go back to the wimpy ass state of "national security" that we have had over the last several years.
| By Roverine on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit |
Um, my above post was I agree with Kyle's above post
Kim
| By Kyle on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 08:05 pm: Edit |
Hmmm , WEll Ron , I never learned much about being PC and if I didnt look at the whole thing slightly different I would agree completely. You see , them staying intact and us going over to break a little something off in their asses every so often is not something that just between us and them. Its between us and everyone. When we have a show of force anywhere the military in many other countries is watching. Hopefully they are watching and saying "Holy shit! , dont wanna piss them off". Its a good thing to have a Sadam around to have an excuse to show what your made of from time to time. We just cant leave them in place unchecked as we have so far. THey need some routine maintanance..... Its good for us internally as it unites us in a common cause and good externally because it probably makes other countries that are feelin a little froggy think twice before fuckin up...
Kyle
| By Heather on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 11:49 am: Edit |
You go booooooooooy!!!hehe,, Well said
| By Ron on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 11:58 am: Edit |
I dunno Kyle.
Does not seem to do much of anything other then make them madder.
Saddam is still there. Iran is still a giant clusterfuck. Cuba and China are getting better but still major issues.
You just have to condition people to not think it is ok to be violent/repressive/subjegated
Its all about the culture for lack of a better word.
I think part of the reason they hate the great infidel is because we are so different. We let women work and vote for christ sake, where as over there they can't even go outside. We make 100x what they do in income per person.
make them in to a fat lazy consumerist society and they will stop hating us and instead will envy us.
The more people are like you the more they will get along.
Prove to them their system/govt. is a one way ticket to no where (ie let the people starve, bomb them) and eventually they will wise up or die. Either way no more threat.
Ron
| By Kyle on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 12:44 pm: Edit |
WEll I think thats the message we are sending right now and its not just going out to Afganistan. How many wars and confrontations do you think fat man and little boy prevented ?
Kyle
| By Ron on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit |
just delayed a bunch.
Thats pretty much what we are seeing now.
All the left over crap from imperialism to comminism is now popping up.
With a (power) vaccumm everything just gets kinda sucked in.
Ron
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