By F.J. (Rovercon) on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 05:51 pm: Edit

I am looking to buy a new CB radio for my '96 Disco. I would like to get some advise from those of you that have them already installed in your trucks. Are there some options that I should look for in the different brands? Is there a particular brand that I should stick with? What's the smallest antenna I should mount?

Basically I am looking to have a way to communicate with the others on the trails, so I don't want to go overboard with the CB.

By Danno on Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 06:10 pm: Edit

i use the Cobra 75 WX ST with all the controls in the handset. installation was simple for the control box. 2 zip ties under the passenger seat and there was even power lead down there that i could splice into.
where are you going to mount the antenna? i think that it is recommended to have the antenna above the vehicle by at least 1 foot. i have a Wilson Silver Load (http://www.wilsonantenna.com/fg.htm) 4 footer mounted to the spare tire carrier. i also have a 2 footer that i bought at the sametime. the 2 footer doesn't clear the roof, but works alot better than the no-name 3 footer that i originally had.

By jay caragay (Jcaragay) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:42 am: Edit

I've been using a Uniden model (can't remember the name but it's the small grey one without the front speaker and with PA, ANL controls) CB that works great. I don't have it permanently mounted yet. I just got a cigarette plug adapter from Radio Shack, modified the power cord and wedged the radio between the passenger seat and the center console. I ran the antenna cable under the rear floor mat and up the side door and onto the roof. It's some old generic antenna that a friend gave to me. It's not the most high-tech antenna but it's good for trail riding.

By peter matusov on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 06:03 am: Edit

if you want to be super-cool, invest in one of the more advanced units with single side band capability. They cost between $160 and $200, and are very close in terms of performance. The giant advantage is that the SSB is more than ten-fold more power-efficient than AM that CB uses, and on top of that the FCC power limit is 12W for SSB and only 4W for AM.

Practically, with a good antenna, you can use a stock SSB CB unit to communicate around the world, while a good stock AM CB may or may not get you about 25 miles.

the main and major drawback is that you will have to talk some of your trail buddies into buying the SSB unit, otherwise you'll be a lone king of the hill :-)

FWIW, I found a Radio Shack's late-80s SSB CB transceiver at the swap meet for $15.

By Danno on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 06:06 am: Edit

peter, he was just looking for something to communicate to others on the trail, not to people in the UK

By peter matusov on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 06:58 am: Edit

Danno, you know that shit -

go wheeling with someone in the woods, and there's a mess of parts, wires, antennas, etc. that is supposed to be just as good as the other stuff that's five times more expensive. then someone gets lost in the woods, and you can't raise him on the CB 'cause his antenna fell off, or whatever, and spend half a day running all side roads to find him out.

SSB is not a necessity, by any means, but if you're up to spending ~200 on communication equipment, why not get it? Typically, SSB units have better electronics than regular AM.

interesting to note that with that CB i have i heard LRCSD folks talking between each other around Breckenridge, CO, while I was driving down I-70 around Silverthorne.
All my previous stuff (within $40-80 range) was unable to pick up anything beyond 3-5 miles on the flat grounds, with a 4' FireStik on the roof.

peter

By Roverine on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 08:12 am: Edit

Cobra 75 WX ST - As stated above, all controls in the handset. Simple and clean - We plug it into adaptor (cig lighter, or any others you may have). The box for it is nice and small - We use velcro to mount the box (same as a lot of other friends) and it works great. We mount our box on the lower - outer edge of console so it actually sits in rear seat floor area - convenient and out of the way. Several ways to go with antenna - We like the reception we get with a K40 on top of roof - Right now we have the magnetic mount for the K40, but we are experimenting with a home made bracket for it that will mount onto either grab bars or roof rack, depending on what we're hauling. We're hoping this will eliminate need for any drilling. There is also a good example of permanently mounting a Firestick antenna on your spare tire carrier at EE site under their tech section: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/cbantennanew.htm
Hope this helps,
Kim

By F.J. (Rovercon) on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 02:04 pm: Edit

thank you everyone. I am just looking for something that I can use on the trails and to keep the price relatively low.

Kim, does the magnetic mounted antenna hold pretty well even through branches? I think that I will have to mount it on spare tire rack to not worry about it.

thanks again everyone.

By Danno on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 02:22 pm: Edit

if you go with the spare mount antenna, you can run the cable through the hole where the trailer wiring harness would come out.

By Mike B. on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit

I've written about this once already, so, at the risk of sounding redundant:

Go with a Radio Shack cheapie radio (between $50.00 and $60.00). It's cheap, works well, and is very small. This is a good thing, since there is not much room inside. I mounted mine up on the DS side of the console near my right knee. I'm pretty happy with, but you have to judge for yourself. Get a good antenna. I like the FireStick ones. The quality of the antenna is more important that the CB anyway.

Below are some pictures from my video camera.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By peter matusov on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 03:13 pm: Edit

magnetic mount antennas don't hold a candle in the branches. in an hour the sound of the antenna falling over will drive you nuts, even if you zip-tie it to the roof rack (guess how i know).

swing by any highway truck stop, they usually have all CB hardware, and at prices lower than RadioShack or Fry's or K40. If you have a _real_ roof rack, use truck mirror mount with a stiff spring for your antenna. a 4-ft FireStik will flop around like a willow branch on a soft spring, and work its mount loose.

also, it is very helpful to have quick-disconnect on your antenna - a lifted Disco with roof rack and 4-ft antenna gets close to the height of highway overpasses my Firestik has already two layers of Super88 electrical tape on it.

the cheapest and least intrusive CB mount in the Disco - just jam it between the center console and driver's seat cushion. No wear on anything, fairly solid mounting, no drilling, and you don't rub your knee against it. both you and your passengers can use it easily, and the mike seems to stay on the console for about 10 minutes on the washboard

K-Mart usually has Cobra CB units in $40-$80 price range. They seem to work exactly the same regardless of price (get works done but no pleasant surprises).

peter

By Roverine on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Thanks for the info, Peter ... A) I agree about the cobras working the same - that's what my old one was as well (I had it permanent mounted - gave it to the kid who bought my old truck - I was in an emotional state). Still, do love that new Cobra 75, though B) I was rather curious myself about our little "experiment" with the bracket and the K40 on a grab rack .... On my old truck, I had the K40 permanent mounted on top (yes, drilled a hole through the roof) and it worked out well, however I'm thinking this may end up a couple of inches higher, and I'm still wondering about the stability ... Going to show this to Greg when he gets in, and he might have a few questions for you if you don't mind ... (He informed me earlier that he has "refined" his design ....)

FJ - So far, we've had very good luck with the magnetic mount, however, it's been mostly used in the desert and mountain trails that didn't have a lot of branches. You really do have to watch it - i.e. check it, tighten it every time you get out, etc.

Kim

By Greg on Thursday, September 27, 2001 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Rovercon,

To elaborate on Roverine's (my wife) comments ... I am going to try the following:
1. Get Thule LB50 load bars for my factory roof rails (need them anyway for my future investment in a Yakima LoadWarrior). These have rectangular cross sections (see below).
2. Fashion a bracket that attaches to rear rail, that includes a hole to mount my K40 thru, behind the rail.
3. Clamp bracket to rear rail both on front edge and rear edge, with u-bolts, to prevent lateral rotation. (Rectangular x-section of bar should prevent rotation along axis of bar.)

Advantages as I see them:
A. Above roof, which provides "ground plane" (as I understand it ... ground plane diameter should be 1/2 whip length)
B. "Only" 1-2" higher than if I had drilled a hole in my roof and permanently attached base unit (K40 has quick attach antenna - 1/4 turn).
C. Not permanent ... from a drilling holes in car perspective.

Greg

By Michel on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 05:35 am: Edit

Peter,

Is the SSB similar to the VHF marine units? i.e. can you raise a phone operator and get a land line connection with those things? Let me know, because I'm redoing my communications system for out of the way places, and I'm looking for the real deal to communicate with the outside world.

Michel

By PerroneFord on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 06:21 am: Edit

No, SSB doesn't work like that. You want a Ham Radio if you really want to be able to reach out and touch the world. Or you could buy a sat phone. The per minute cost is high, but how often are you going to need to make a call from the back of beyond.

For my CB use, I chose a Cobra 25 NWSTWX. Good radio that I had tuned up by my local CB shop. I know many of you don't really care about getting good CB's but it REALLY makes a difference if you wheel in densely forested areas. The Radio Shack models, and the "all in the handset" models simply cannot be tuned up like a good "trucker" model. Good CB's are about 15% to 25% more than others but deliver 100% or better performance. Good models are available from Cobra, Uniden, Cherokee, and others. If you REALLY want to go all out on CB, look into models from Galaxy.

And get a damn decent antenna. The whip REALLY is the best for performance, but the k40s I have are good too. k40 antennas have a no quibble replacement guarantee. If you break it within 2 years, just return it for a free replacement of equal size. And yes I have tested this policy! Wilson also makes good antennas.

Of course none of this makes a bit of difference if you don't get the setup tuned properly. And the SWR meter on the radio is just about worthless. Get it done with a accurate gauge, or better yet, have your local CB shop do it right. While you're there, get a good power mike as it will make your speech a LOT more clear. Astatic make some of the best in the business.

With my short antenna mounted, I am able to get 4-10 miles of transmit reach consistently on the highway, and 2-4 miles on the trail.

Just my nickel's worth.

-P

By Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp) on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 06:27 am: Edit

Perrone,

Would you explain what you actually had done to "tune up" your CB?

Are you referring to tuning the antenna to get the SWR correct or tuning to the radio itself?

By PerroneFord on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 06:48 am: Edit

There is a process by which the technician modifies the internals of the radio to get it to output more than the standard wattage. This is patently illegal, but it a VERY common "upgrade". Volumes are published on how to do this. Took about 10 minutes and more than doubled my radios performance.

The other piece of tuning is the antenna. Once the whole setup was installed, the installer attached a digital device (vectronics 584B), dialed in the target frequencies, and did antenna length tuning for maximum performance. He then showed me on the radio how far off the mark the internal unit was. He then showed me in the shop where the little potentiometer is for determining SWR. Anyone with a screwdriver can change what the SWR looks like on the internal unit. Absolutely worhless.

If you look at the spanish trail page, you can see the device my installer used to tune the setup.

http://www.spanishtrailrovers.com/Technical_Section/Range_Rover_CB/Antennatested.jpg

You can also see that I got a real 1.3 SWR rating with my short antenna. 1.0 is theoretical perfet. Anything under 2.0 is considered good.

-P

By Daniel on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 07:04 am: Edit

My dad was a truck driver for a whole bunch of years.
I remember him talking about a device called a "lenia" ?spelling (pronounced-leanyer)
Is anyone familiar with this device? As I recall, and I was about 12 when I learned about this stuff, it works like an amp for the output signal. Also strictly illegal. He would talk to my uncle, similarly equiped, accross town. I mean this literally, we each lived in the country on opposite sides of town-a good 10+ miles. This "amp" was as I recall boosting the signal over 100w even up to 150w. It got very hot and had top be kept on a piece of wood to protect the carpet.

By peter matusov on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 07:17 am: Edit

Michel,

SSB only relates to a type of carrier modulation. AM is amplitude modulation, FM is frequency modulation. AM is the least power-efficient type of radio transmission, because ~3/4 of power is on the carrier frequency (doesn't carry information at all), and remaining 1/4 split between two side bands. SSB only transmits one of these side bands, which gives you about a factor of 8 in power, and the PEP (peak envelope power, or whatever power you can transmit when you yell in the mike) is FCC limited to 12 watts. So, while your inner thoughts can be transmitted with 12W of power in SSB mode, FCC will limit your voice at 4W/8 = 0.5W power in regular AM mode than most CB transceivers employ.
A 24x gain in legal FCC terms.

BUT, in order to benefit from this gain, your other party must have the SSB-enabled unit, too.
The chances of all rigs in your party having SSB units are zero (unless you're the only one )

What Perrone mentioned (tweaking your transceiver) is illegal (which I don't care much about), and sort of unethical with respect to your trail buddies. All CB receivers have automatic gain control (AGC), and people tend not to spread about too much. So, when someone with a tweaked CB unit hits the mike button (without even whispering into it), his CB transmits full 10W (or whatever wattage it was "tuned up" to), causing the AGC on the other people's CB units to cut the gain, and squelch - to kill other people's communications.

The very common example of this - truckers use illegal power boosters all the time, and try to talk to someone not far from you with your 4W stock unit while truckers chat around with 100W transceivers. Next to impossible. SSB is a great way to filter out the close-by powerful RF interference, and besides - when you hit the mike button, you aren't transmitting anything until you actually say something.

now, back to your original Q - no, I would not rely on CB communications to make patches to land lines. It can be done, but there's just too much ungoverned traffic, and CB operators are not as disciplined as ham operators. It doesn't cost an arm and leg to obtain the no-code tech license, and you're into the whole world of expensive electronics and weird comm set-ups.

feel free to ask any Qs,

peter

By michel on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 07:30 am: Edit

Ok I think I get it. In essence SSB is a great alternative to CB's if the whole gang has it, impossible conditions. So the CB is fine for the trail budies, but I need to reach out and touch someone outside the group.

I'm used to the VHF marine radio's were you can actually raise and operator and call someone collect from very remote places. This is what I'm after. The sat phone is OK, but not very reliable and to rich for my needs. Is there an alternative for land use to the VHF?

Michel

By peter matusov on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 07:41 am: Edit

get a no-code ham license. You can have either shortwave or VHF (144MHz, 2m) rig, and either communicate with someone directly or through a repeater, and have s land line patch set up. People were doing this for years before Airtouch Cellular covered this part of the planed with cell phone service.

i believe, with no-code tech license you get very generous power allowances, so sky's the limit
(literally, for over-the-horizon shortwave communications).

peter