By ken on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Hello

does anyone have first hand experience with the $G 3link system on a Disco I? i am thinking of getting one but have a few questions.

1. how do you like it?
2. how difficult was it to install? (do it your self or have someone else put it in)
3. in addition to the actual 3link thing... it looks like i have to buy a
I. new D90 steering dampener
II. "conversion kit"
III. $G tie rods (two i think?)
IV.Brake lines
V. ?!?!?

anything else?! in addition to the $650 for the kit what was the REAL cost and was it worth it

thanks


KEN

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Search the archives for "lawn chair".




-L

By MA on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Basically it sucks. It has proven to be unreliable. Don't waste your money on it.

By p m on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit

tie rods may be okay. stock Disco and rangie tie rods suck. the rest - follow Leslie's advice (and MA's, in order received)

peter

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Oooooohhhhhhhh Noooooooooooooo.........

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 04:50 pm: Edit

The 3-link is a wonderful, magical thing.....


...just don't drive it on the road too much.

By Shane (Shane) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 05:29 pm: Edit

If you do buy it you MUST get the new crossmember. This bring the price up to $900. To get any real benefit out of it you need at least 12" travel shock up front. For these you need custom shock towers. So you are really talking about $1200 or more.
I know of two failures of the production 3-link; both times the stock crossmember is what failed.
I have it on my D90 and am very happy with it.

PS please don't turn this inot another SG bash fest. There's been enough of those

By Ken on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Okay…

So I’m really confused… I checked the archive for “lawn chair” and some say the 3link is okay some say it sucks but basically the discussion went no where. Then people WENT OFF on an engineering discussion that boggled my mind and I never could figure out if this thing was good or bad?!?!?!?

I guess my question is from those who have had/have seen in action SG 3link.

If you had owned/currently own it
1. how do you like it?
2. how difficult was it to install? (do it your self or have someone else put it in)
3. in addition to the actual 3link thing... it looks like i have to buy a (for a disco)
a. new D90 steering dampener
b. "conversion kit"
c. $G tie rods (two i think?)
d. Brake lines
e. Anything else???

If you have seen it in action
1. did it perform
2. was it any more / less reliable then any other mfgs add on

PLEASE… can someone just give me first hand (I own/owned it) or second hand (ive seen it work/fail where others would not have failed) experience… in simple layman’s terms… I’m not an engineer so I don’t know about “radius lengths X diameter of the braking force / clevis molding tinsel strength Yada yada yada yada… “

Also I get the feeling that there are some folks who immediately discount SG stuff… other then their expensive is there a another reason??? It “looks pretty” but does it work???

Thanks

KEN

By Ken on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Okay…

So I’m really confused… I checked the archive for “lawn chair” and some say the 3link is okay some say it sucks but basically the discussion went no where. Then people WENT OFF on an engineering discussion that boggled my mind and I never could figure out if this thing was good or bad?!?!?!?

I guess my question is from those who have had/have seen in action SG 3link.

If you had owned/currently own it
1. how do you like it?
2. how difficult was it to install? (do it your self or have someone else put it in)
3. in addition to the actual 3link thing... it looks like i have to buy a (for a disco)
a. new D90 steering dampener
b. "conversion kit"
c. $G tie rods (two i think?)
d. Brake lines
e. Anything else???

If you have seen it in action
1. did it perform
2. was it any more / less reliable then any other mfgs add on

PLEASE… can someone just give me first hand (I own/owned it) or second hand (ive seen it work/fail where others would not have failed) experience… in simple layman’s terms… I’m not an engineer so I don’t know about “radius lengths X diameter of the braking force / clevis molding tinsel strength Yada yada yada yada… “

Also I get the feeling that there are some folks who immediately discount SG stuff… other then their expensive is there a another reason??? It “looks pretty” but does it work???

Thanks

KEN

By pk on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Ken,

You have summoned a sleeping giant who can become very angry when asked this question. The opinions about the 3-Link (aka Lawn Chair) are passionate to say the least. Let me try and say a few things about it and hopefully not start a giant flame war.

-The three link is a completely different front suspension design that does away with the original factory equipment, performance constraints and design objectives.

-It greatly increases the front articulation and therefore will increase tire contact and ride stability on very advanced trails. Basically, it should rock and roll on real hard trails.

-It changes the way the Rover steers and rides somewhat. Some have said that "a 3-Linked Land Rover ain't really a Land Rover no more." I tend to agree.

-It is not DOT approved, Safari Gard states that it is not intended for use on the road and a few have failed during hard braking with 1 D90 ending up in a roll over crash. Since a Disco weighs a lot more that a 90, we can assume that a failure would be more likely in a Disco.

-Since the failures, Safari Gard has made an improvement to the stock cross member that apparently was the weak spot... at least it has been blamed as the cause. I am not aware of any failures since the new cross member has come on the scene.

-Safari Gard has encouraged owners of the original type to buy and install the new cross member. This has angered some people who think SG should supply it free of charge for the sake of safety or at the very least to preserve the lives of their good customers.

-All in all I think (my opinion only here), that its a great thing to add to a dedicated trail rig that never sees the paved road except when riding on a trailer to and from the hard core trails. I think you need to be the type that will stop at nothing to squeeze every ounce of performance. You need to be the kind that don't care about driving on the road or the danger of a sudden catastrophic failure during an emergency stop.

-I think there is only anecdotal evidence to suggest that the new cross member makes it safe to drive on the road. There are considerable real world facts that point to its considerable hazards.

pk

By Kyle on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 06:07 pm: Edit

And Ken , there are plenty here who have plenty of $Gs crap (Including myself) That gives us the basis of our opinions. They cant make a god damned shock mount that wont break much less something that signifigant.... take it for what its worth....


Kyle

By Shane (Shane) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Kyle,
What SG shock mounts have broke? The only SG shock mounts I've seen are the stage III ones for the rear of a D90 and they are plenty beefy. I have heard of some of the ends breaking off the FOXX shocks but not any mounts.

By Kyle on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Look out the window you will see a few.. There is a guy in CA with a 90 that has the front externals and cant keep a set of them on either. Then there is the smiley bumpers and the bending sliders,,,etc etc.....


Kyle

By MA on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 07:38 pm: Edit

I think it was Four Wheeler Magazine that had an article on after-market suspensions for Land Rovers. This was before Rovertym entered the field . The order was:
1. Rockware suspension
2. Desert Rover
3. Old Man Emu(w/ $G shock extensions)
4. Chris Hinkle's Wild Card(had some $G components on it)
5. Safari Gard JEK stage 3(w/ 3-link)
6. Safari Gard JEK stage 2(w/ 3-link)

One of the Safari Gard vehicles actually rolled during a hard braking test. But they had the best trail performance of the bunch and offered the most articulation and balance. I e-mailed them about 2 months after the article asking if they fixed that weak center link(which was thought of as being the problem). They gave me this long e-mail that basically said no. I had Safari Gard sliders on my truck when I bought it about 2 years ago, but the left one broke when I climbed a dirt hill. It might have been an installation problem...who knows.

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Ken:

Don't take this the wrong way, but based on the questions you are asking, I would say that the 3 link is not for you. At least not yet. Figure out what you want to do with your Disco first. Get to know it the way it is now. Read this and other boards for a while. Go out with some people. After a while your questions will answer themselves. Don't jump into getting a 3 link just because of the "coolness factor"

By p m on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 08:42 pm: Edit

MA, what kind of installation problem can be on $G sliders? The shit has probably more steel than the door sill it attaches to.

The only - and major - problem with $G sliders (and RTE as well) is what they bolt on to. I landed hard on one in Moab, and I could see that the sill had deformed from the impact. A bit more, and I wouldn't be able to open the doors. Took some work afterwards to set it straight again, until the next bang.

The only relevance of this observation to this thread is that if something sports $G lettering on it, it may be considered cool by some, but not necessarily work as advertised.

peter

By MA on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 09:27 pm: Edit

I don't know about the installation. The previous owner of the car put them on a couple of months before I purchased it. He is not much of a "car buff," so I don't know if he installed it or not. When he sold me the car, he also gave me the original plastic sill protectors. I'm assuming that he knew something was wrong with the $G unit. They did have some scratches and dents on them. There was also a little bend on the left one. The way it came off was when I was doing some hill climbing on a dirt bike course. I was going up a steep hill and I rubbed the sliders badly. They started making some strange sounds, like they were streesed. So, I backed off the hill and saw the rear mount was broken. I then got them taken off and I put the plastic ones back on.

By MA on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 09:47 pm: Edit

I also remember reading in some magazine(like Four Wheeler)...I forgot the name, about some off-road event in the west coast. The vehicles were all modified rigs that included a couple of D-90's. One of those Defenders was the Safari Gard rig seen on their front page. Well, there was this rocky hill(oxymoron) that they all had to climb. The $G D-90 didn't make it up due to breaking some component. It might have been the suspension. You might want to ask them about that.

By Shane on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 10:09 pm: Edit

MA
the story is Greg's(SG owner) D90 had the failure during the event. What happened is they were in route to the next trail and he was haul'n on some desert road when he hit a ditch or something an went airborn casing his suspension on the landing. The crossmember failed(the stock unit)
Now they have the heavy duty crossmember. This was the first failure of the production 3-link. There has been no failures of the production 3-link with the heavy-duty crossmember.

By Eric N (Grnrvr) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 10:19 pm: Edit

Wasn't that when they were test running it too? Prototype version when that happened

By Kyle on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 10:22 pm: Edit

No , that was the second failure and a production version. He also lied about it to "friends" saying his clutch fried and he couldnt finish.

Kyle

By Eric on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 10:43 pm: Edit

For what it is worth, there is an RR classic sitting at LR Cincy with a busted 3 link. The tires/axle are all pushed up into the body, the suspension let loose while driving.

Eric

By Axel Haakonsen (Axel) on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Pics?

By Mike D1 on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Ken,

I have been on the trail with an all $G stage III truck. The flex was okay but not any better than my 3" Rover Tym truck with ez off sway bars. With all the bad stuff posted about $G I would stay away from it. I called $G three times to get info about a product and never got a call back. Customer service seems to suck. I am very happy with RT.

Good Luck

By chrisvonc on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 09:08 am: Edit

Shane,
I run the Stage III (minus 3-Link) on my disco and I have have 5 seperate breakages with the kit. None of which were the shocks.
1) Rear spring retainer failed
2) Lower right shock mount failed
3) Upper right shock mount failed
4) Lower left shock mount caused axle damage
5) Lower right shock mount caused axle damage
To be fair, the last 2 I was running the "heavier duty" mounts from SG. They are actually so heavy that they tore the LR mount to bits when they caught rocks. The SG ones are still usable but the stock mounts need not to be cut off and replacements welded back on.
I have quite an extensive photo documentation of all these breakages and will be submitting more to the Window section this week.
BTW - Ken, ALL of my breakages occured out on the trails. Some pretty friggin far out in nowhere land. Buy a portable welder or take someone with you who has one. In all breakages I listed above, except the first one, field welding was needed to get rolling again.

Chris

By chrisvonc on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 09:22 am: Edit

I forgot to add that the last 2 breakages cause the destuction of the 2 rear Fox shock so now I am out the price of whatever its going to cost me to replace them.

In all cases though, all the breaks happened in fairly easy going trails and not in big hardcore rock fiels where you would think failures like that would happen.

Chris

By Discosaurus (Discosaurus) on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:43 am: Edit

There's NO way any LR with stock front suspension is going to articulate as well as a 3-linked (of ANYONE's design - $SG sure didn't invent 3-link suspension) front suspension. I don't care how tall your springs are. The stock front is rigid. A 3-link front is gonna give you twice the flex of LR radius arms and bushings.

I don't think I would run $G's 3-link on a truck that spent most of it's time on the road but, the one's I've wheeled with performed damm well on the rough trails.

Ken, if you're using your truck as an off-road toy, put one on (or wait for a while, there's supposed to be a NEW design front suspension system out soon), it'll work good. But, as someone said earlier, by your questions it's doubtful that's your intention.

Like $G's web site says - For Off-Road Use Only
Believe it...

keith
discosaurus

By PHILLIP P on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 01:42 pm: Edit

SAFARI GARD MUST REALLY MAKE CHEAP SHIT AND PUT BIG PRICES ON IT>

By Shane on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Chris
I'm definately interested in the pics.
What did $G do about the broken mounts?

By chrisvonc on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit

Shane,
I am waiting on some more pics from someone else who was on the trail with us when the last 2 breaks happened. But in the meantime, you can see a bunch of pics in the "Window" section here on the Discoweb. All of the SG suspension pics in there are from my truck over the last 2 years. I will send the lastest pics from last weekends 2 rear breakages over to Ho this week.

In the past SG was pretty good at sending me the heavier duty replacement parts.

By Kyle on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 08:25 am: Edit

And as always they say , "Well the part is designed to fail before the part its mounted to , but , we have an upgaraded part you can get for XX.XX $$$$$. That shit cracks me up...

Kyle

By chrisvonc on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 09:22 am: Edit

hehe.. yeah but in this latest case, the part was so strong, it tore the factory mounts they were bolted too rather than the part failing.
Damned if you do and damned if you dont.

Chris

By Kyle on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Well , thats kinda what you get when you use those after market lowers. THe point they are designed to is not designed to take that kind of leverage. And the aftermarket lowers are just and hanging point anyway...


Kyle

By Scott Bowden (Scott_Bowden) on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 08:44 am: Edit

Who is planning the new design front suspension system? Safari Gard or someone else.

By MA on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit

Isn't Safari Gard making a JEK stage 4 suspension with coil-over-shocks?

By chrisvonc on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 09:55 am: Edit

They made that 1 prototype kit but the costs of the kit was astronomical according to Greg. Dont plan on see it avalible anytime soon.

Chris

By Phil on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 11:34 pm: Edit

the new coil over is on their web site with the ROCK 90 with dana 60's and a NV4500 as well as an ATLAS which I think is all horse shit cause they are chopping up a rover bastards...............

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Phil I say improving the breed! There all good parts so whats the problem?

By Kyle on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 12:03 am: Edit

Well Robert . dont wave the flag or emblem of some maker if what you are driving really has nothing to do with them anymore. Its kinda stupid. Also , isnt "Good parts" kinda relative? Good for what?


Kyle

By Phil on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:10 pm: Edit

I think that they should stick with whats on it...plus how many jeeps have DANA's-NV4500-Atlas etc..they are good parts that should be on a Jeep not a ROVER.....

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Phil, Kyle So and d-60 and a Atlas TC are bad and a Detroit or Tru-Trac is OK. I don't see the logic.

They put Detroit's in jeeps to, so I guess you going back to open/open?

By Kyle on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Replacing a diff and axles and replacing the whole unit with something else is an entirely different story. The same with engines , transmissions and transfer cases. There is a point when what you are driving is no longer what you bought. Jeeps are big on this.

Kyle

By phil on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I like ARB.....I think D60 and atlas are bad ass...I was kinda sad to see that shit on a rover though o well
at least they kept the stock motor and no chevy 350

By Robert Mann (Oldscout) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:52 pm: Edit

I see were splitting hairs. Mods are mods.

By Kyle on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 07:56 pm: Edit

Ahhhh , is that so? Some can do allot with a little. Most need allot to do a little. I prefer to exploit whats there already......


Kyle

By p m on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Kyle, you make me proud that i still have a jeep that's 100% stock (lift, tires, and lockers don't count)

peter

By Phil on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 10:36 pm: Edit

jeeps are ok but I like the British better....I dont mean to poo poo jeeps or atlas or detroit or trutrac I know people that have products from all but atlas....buddy has a marlin in a toyota... arbs and a NV4500 in a 78 fj40.I do not like seeing things chopped up and so forth o well..in my opinion there is more jeep shit on the "rock 90" than british.........+

By Kyle on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Currently peter you can take a good long look at my truck and all you will visually find are bigger tires , some protection and a winch...Most of which could have actually been ordered on the truck when new.. most of the other shit that it rolled of the line with is still there 135K later..Right down to my shocks that everyone gives me shit about.....


Kyle

By Phil r0ver4x4 on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Its not bad to modify....but it hink dana's on a rover and a dodge transmission is sort of I dont know what it is

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 11:44 pm: Edit

all the shocks kyle? even the damper?

hehehe
rd