By Carl on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Seems that some are using GPS as they have come down in price and are useful for both finding using trails and on-road use. Not having one I wonder the uses, are they actually worth having, and what type and cost?

Second, some use a laptop connected to gps? What does this do for you?

thanks,

carl

By p m on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Carl,

if you are so serious about using a laptop with a GPS, you may get a good OEM GPS receiver, and mount it inside the laptop case.

The Motorola Oncore M12 receiver costs $98, search the web for it. Antenna can be purchased for $29, with magnetic mount.

peter

By Mike B. on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 09:09 pm: Edit

I have the Garming GPS III+ which was recently discontinued. The GPS 4 replaces it and it gives you turn by turn directions. The screen is small (about 2" by 3") and it is grayscale, not color.

I love the GPS III+ because it is small enough to carry on a hike, bike or in the Disco. I can run it several days on the batteries. Works in a boat too. Lots of accessories for it are also available. However the screen is sort of small, so you better have pretty good eyes.

You can hook up your GPS to your laptop, but I'm not sure where you would put it so you could see it effectively while you drive. I do download my GPS to my computer after going off-road and then use the TopoUSA software to print off a nice color map of my trails and waypoints.

I use my GPS more than any other piece of off-roading equipment. I take it with me on all trips (on road as well as off). It works great. While you are driving down the road, you can take the small cursor and point at any exit and it will tell what services are available and how long it will take you to get there. Way cool.

Thanks,
Mike B.

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:33 pm: Edit

I've used a laptop quite a bit w/ a GPS. It isn't really something that you should do by yourself... it works better to have a co-pilot playing w/ the laptop while you drive. But, I've been known to have the laptop running while sitting in the passenger seat while I'm rolling down the highway.

The one I have was given to me... it is a DeLorme, and can only be used w/ a computer (it has no screen of it's own). I would prefer to have a separate GPS that can be used on it's own, but hey, it was free.

Peter's idea about mounting the GPS would work well IF the GPS can use an external antenna. Many can't, and so it will only work well if it is put up on your dash.

The thing about using a laptop: You've got a bigger screen for your map; and it can hold a lot more detail of a lot larger area because it has a hard-drive.... handheld GPSes have small screens and limited detail. Both can log routes, but a laptop can log a BIG route.... a handheld logger is again limited to a smaller number of waypoints.

Another good thing about a laptop is that you can use different programs.... I can use StreetAtlas, or I can use Pathfinder and do some differential correction and get really precise points, or I can create shapefiles and overlay them onto tifs of a 7.5min topo....

Honestly, I got along just fine before they came around, even without a map, but I'm handy with a map, too.... A GPS might not be of much value to you if you can't relate it back to a map in the first place. I have to admit, I love playing with them.... And, I actually use them, both survey-grade ones, and little hand-held style ones.

It IS nice, though, when in unfamiliar territory, to have laid out a route, and let it read off directions to you while you drive. Or, if you end up someplace where there aren't any streetsigns or landmarks to use to locate yourself on a map, then it is handy for getting you located in the right hollow.

There's a couple of cents' worth....

Feel free to ask more questions here, or email me if ya want....

-L

By PerroneFord on Wednesday, October 17, 2001 - 10:47 pm: Edit

You've gotten some great responses so far. I've used vehicle GPS for about 6 years now. I currently use a Garmin GPSIII as my primary GPS and a Magellan 315 as a backup. I also have TOPO maps for my entire state in the car at all times with a compass.

Fundamentally, a GPS answers the question "where am I". It will not tell you how to get somewhere, nor can it easily describe where you have been. Connect it to a laptop though and its true abilities shine through.

For example. On my road trips, I lay out the entire trip in streetatlas and then upload that route to the GPS. I then have every turn shown to me on the GPS which eliminates the need for a co-pilot. This is particularly useful in large, unfamilar cities. For longer trips, I can plan where to eat, where I want to stop for the night, where I can get gas, and where to get shopping done. This is all a part of the StreetAtlas software. Once I connect it to the GPS, I get a live moving map of where I am, and where I have been. Incredibly useful.

Off-the road, I get to plan off-road trips in either streetatlas or TOPOUSA. I can see jeep trails, single-track, numbered forest roads, etc. I lay out the route, picnic spots, places to get water, etc, before I leave the house. Then I can follow that route to the foot once I get in the forest. In areas with clear paths, this is not that useful, but in featureless desert or tundra, it can be a Godsend.

For the small sum of money you spend, you do get quite a lot of utility. There are a few things you need to make sure of if you get one.

1. Be sure it can accept an external antenna
2. Be sure it can send info to a laptop
3. Get one with its own screen.
4. Find a way to mount it. There are numerous options.

Best of luck to you,

-Perrone

By gp (Garrett) on Thursday, October 18, 2001 - 08:28 am: Edit

check out the new StreetPilot V that is out now. lots of new features and a good amount of standard memory. tons and tons of ways points and other goodies. price is pretty decent too.....$450. no color screen though.

By carl on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 08:13 am: Edit

How effective is just the GPS without anything else? Small screen works? they appear very small. What brand?

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 08:25 am: Edit

Carl,

In it's most simplest terms, a GPS will tell you what your location is in some sort of coordinate system.... ie., latitude and longitude.

If you're good with a map, you can take that position, and put a dot on the map and see where you are.

Nowdays, many have a built-in map database. Usually a rather general map, but useful when driving across the country.

Others have the capability of having more detailed maps uploaded into it. This works great if you're only worried about a specific area.

I'm of the "old school", that all you need is a good map... I always have a compass, but I can do fine without one, too.... most of the time I don't even need a map, either. I think of the GPS as a tool to aid your map-use, not as a replacement.

Most of the screens in hand-held ones ARE small. That's why I like using a laptop IF seeing the location on a map on a screen is important. If you're wanting to put your location onto a paper-map, then the small screen is all you need for reading the lat/long values.

I've got a preference for Garmin, but that's not to say that Magellan or Trimble are bad. I know of others (such as Eagle), but I can't say anything about them from experience.

Good luck!

-L

By gp (Garrett) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 08:50 am: Edit

GPS units are much more accurate than in past years. the past administration has made them more accurate by unlocking the error code so to speak. most are good to about 10-20 feet. but for some people (like myself) that really get into this stuff with computer programs on GIS where i can plot my route while carrying a GPS unit while skiing or mt. biking. i can calculate my verticle accent or decent within a profile. you can literally create a 3d profile of your route. this can be done with free software off the web. even with the most basic handheld units this can be done.
the newer units have more and more features that make these products not only more useful, but also pretty fun to play with.
lots of people are just using them to plot a course and route and be done with it. they are much more capable than that.
there is a great source of information on the web for basemap information including USGS quads with topo and such. but what makes them really fun is how the information from your unit can be combined with scalable aeriel photographs and such.
yes some of the screens are pretty small, but the better ones are scalable and the zooming feature does help on the basic models.
i use to use the Trimbles for surveying years ago, but am learning more about the handhelds and portables now. now i am in the market and the Garmin StreetPilot V is my favorite for the money.
http://www.garmin.com/products/gps5/

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 08:56 am: Edit

Garrett,

We're using survey-grade Trimbles here... the ones that are in a backpack with an antenna on a surveying staff and a datalogger in your hand. Something like a $10,000 unit when it was bought new. We've got a base-station set up at the office, so we can correct our data and get it REAL close....

In hand-helds for use, I like Garmin's line... they've got some choice there, just get familiar with the features... all of the bells and whistles... and figure out which you 'need', which you 'like', and which you could care less about... then look at the price tags, and pick one!

Good luck!

-L

By gp (Garrett) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 09:57 am: Edit

yes that is what i was using as well. the backpacks that make you look like a total freak. i just love the look. especially walking where there are people, but thankfully that did not happen much. mostly for surveying wetlands, stream corridors, etc.
i have been doing some good research and find that garmin is the line i like as well. the new streetpilot V can be had for $450. pretty good with plenty of options to keep me busy and a higher resolution screen which was a bonus. you can download detailed maps of streams and topo which i really like.
but i have an endless supply of 1 meter resolution aerial photos flown in the past 5 years. pretty accurate stuff. pretty fun to take a mt. bike ride or off road trip in the woods not knowing where the hell you are then get home download the waypoints to a GIS program and see where you were.
i'm not going for the real high end stuff. i am sure the V is more than what i need now, but i would rather it have more than less. i will hopefully grow into as well. it is also WAAS campatible. following was taken from their site:

WAAS consists of approximately 25 ground reference stations positioned across the United States that monitor GPS satellite data. Two master stations, located on either coast, collect data from the reference stations and create a GPS correction message. This correction accounts for GPS satellite orbit and clock drift plus signal delays caused by the atmosphere and ionosphere. The corrected differential message is then broadcast through one of two geostationary satellites, or satellites with a fixed position over the equator. The information is compatible with the basic GPS signal structure, which means any WAAS-enabled GPS receiver can read the signal.

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 10:18 am: Edit

garret, check out this one.

http://WWW.LOWRANCE.COM/Outdoor/Products/gm_1600.asp

nice big screen to keep you warm at night. you can find em for about the same one as that garmin

rd

By gp (Garrett) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 10:32 am: Edit

that is nice. during stream crossings i could use this as a damn fish finder as well. i will keep that one in mind too. that looks to be close to the size of the one you have.

By Rob Davison (Pokerob) on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 11:13 am: Edit

hehe.. it is the one i have

thats no joke about the fish finder !

i want to hook up the sonar in the back bumper for when i'm parallel parking .

rd

By OEX on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 03:56 pm: Edit

With any navigation system, I think it is best to start with what you want from it. Do you want to use it on pavement or off? Will it be important to remove it? Is navigation the only function you want (i.e. do you also want communications, text ability, terra-trip coupling, etc)? Will it remain in the US or do you intend to use it out of country?

In my opinion you should find the software that works best for you and go from there. All GPS give you long/lat., but it is what you do and the software does with the information that differs. On a base level, the first place to start is to learn how to use a GPS with your map and compass. Next, choose software that suits the goal you have in mind. Then build/find the system that works best, is the most reliable, can take the extreme conditions of your vehicle, is space effective, and is cost effective.

I have been dealing with nav software and hardware for the last 8 years and have found that no one makes a system that is very good, but I expect and need particular attributes.


Software outline, pros/cons:
--Closed system GPS--i.e. In vehicle OEM are very limited for trail use, but may be all you need. They stay 'on road' and show no topo features.

--Dash units are based on proprietary maps and have limited memory. Some of the topo info is fine.

--Computer software; There is a wide selection, but attributes are limited. Most of the programs do not allow you to see bread crumb trail and their maps are proprietary; (you must use their maps). Maptech has very good attributes (see below), but again they are based on proprietary maps and are limited to the States. Good choice for the States!


For me the system should have the following attributes:

Important attributes: (this is for what I do—hard driving everyday, teaching navigation, use in global locations, tough conditions, etc.)
1. Non-proprietary map use
2. Bread crumb graphics and recording
3. Trip computations---speeds, distances, etc.
4. File sharing--i.e. you can send recording of your days ride to a friend who can then play it back and navigate by it.
5. Note taking ability---drawing on map and leaving notes (journal/road book) for particular marks or waypoints
6. Interface with any GPS hardware or antenna
7. Graphic display must be resizable---i.e. you can see it and use it if displayed on different size monitors.
8. Graphic size should allow for use of touchsreen monitors---i.e. 'Button’ sizes should be easy to hit with a dirty-gloved hand-=--monitor should be splash resistant
9. Support comes from people who use and developed software
10. Software manufacture should be willing to change program it faults or shortcomings are encountered
11. Software should not have to run on CD-ROM (not great on a tail), most will do this, but many are very memory intensive.
12. CPU ruggedized and weather/water resistant
13. Seamless map transition
14. Data base of points of interest

I am demanding, but I think that we all should be. I have developed a system that covers all these 'wants' and more. At this time I use a software package designed for rallies, it will allow any map to be used (scanned in gif, tif, jpg, hand made, satellite photos, etc), has more attributes than I can use, great support, low memory use, log book, topo features, play back, file sharing,....bla bla bla. I keep this loaded on a vehicle computer that remains under the seat in a waterproof case or above flood line (memory is used not CD-ROM, for example over 800 maps of Africa easily loaded and used). The computer has loads of expansion ports, COM ports, etc. The display is a touchsreen monitor mounted on or in the dash--I install keyboard software to be able to use e-mail etc. The GPS unit can be just an antenna or a dash mounted portable unit--this allows me to download/upload data and leave the vehicle in emergencies with a GPS, map and compass in hand.

The software is called Touratech QV 2.0. It is distributed out of Quebec and produce in Germany {http://www.qvnav.com/}, tell them Overland Experts referred you). I have used this software in Moab, New England, Iceland, Africa, Europe, and Central America. QV is loads of fun, as well as a great utility.

The hardware is your choice- for the CPU I am putting together a built-in vehicle computer to suit my and my client's needs, but Panasonic has some very interesting products in the toughbook line. The monitor is the most difficult one, most in-dash types will not allow VGA connections, etc, but will take RC jack (then you need a video conversion card and hardware), but then have no touchscreen capabilities. Monitors are out there, you just have to look and figure out what works best in your vehicle.
The cost is dependent on your CPU mostly---I purchased and set-up my system for less than $2500.00 (it can be done for less). That may seem like a lot of money, but when you look at other ‘complete’ kits or GPS units with maps only, it is a good deal. You get a much better and more flexible system that can change as your needs or interests change.

Sorry for the long note, but I hate to see people buy things that they will not use or things they will grow out of early on.

Cheers, OEX

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Carl,

I use a small $100 gps (garmin etrex) that I wedge next to the windscreen (where it sits all day). I only use it to tell me my lat/long coordinates if I get lost on a trail.

Generally I try to buy topo maps, and then draw on them (if necessary) a grid of degree/min/second lines, and it takes only a few seconds to pinpoint our exact coordinates on the map.

The topo maps are huge compared to a laptop screen, and show much more detail and to a further extent, which is great for off-roading. So if you want one JUST for off-road, then this method works well and a cheapy is cool. Maps are good things - you can record on them permanently where you've been each trip.

Dean

By OEX on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 07:51 pm: Edit

GPS, SOFTWARE, LEARNING

The scale you see on any worthwhile software package is an option you can pick. The detail is exactly the same as a paper topo USDIGS 7,5 min because they are the exact same maps---with the correct software. The software allows you to leave a trail of you position, speed direction, time, communications log in the period, even temperature, trail notes--- any info you feel is pertinent. Then this is transferable to anyone you want. It cannot and should not replace paper and was design to accent it only and allow you to do more within any given time period.

Again, it all depends on what you want, but I have not found any good software package to be less useful than paper---outside of the absolute and self-explanatory must that you can use a topo, compass, and altimeter together when your vehicle has sank into the sand.

Let us face it, there is a attractive "toy" aspect of GPS and computers, this will not go away---just get the correct thing (that will expand with your wants or needs) if you bother to go beyond what is actually necessary (paper and compass).

I think after the newness of a GPS and etc ware off one may find the real interesting stuff---compass, stars, etc. But if you do not have the time to mess around with doing the work or you like the plethora of other ‘options’ available and attributes, then go for it, but do not forget to learn to swim before you jump in.

Carl, Dean and others are correct in warning against relying on any of these electric devices---it has been the end of more people than we would like to admit.


Cheers, OEX

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 08:48 pm: Edit

OEX,

You got a name?

Yeah the yahoo maps does have the same topo info (as you say, its the SAME image) as the paper ones. The only diference is when you zoom in to see the same detail, you can't see much of the area at the same time, so I hate the electronic stuff in that case. Guess I'm just a map man. You can learn so much from maps.

And as you say, maps don't crash, maps don't run out of battery, maps don't suffer from 'it worked yesterday' syndrome, and maps don't get a lousy net connection.

Dean

By Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 08:49 pm: Edit

.....But, maps do sometimes suffer from the 'I was printed from 1928 topographical data' syndrome!

By mongo on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Hey All,
I jumping in a little late but here goes...printed maps are great, I have a gazette map book of nys, but I'm also running a garmin 3+ with an extenal antenna and my old laptop in my rig. I just installed a power inverter and docking station for the computer. This way I don't have to worry about batteries or it sitting on the passenger seat. I'm using Topo 3.0 for software. It's a awesome system, but awkaward. I'm thinking about mounting the computer somewhere in the truck and finding a small touch screen instead of the docking station. The OEX guys run a interesting system and a simple gps rx works fine. I had the computer lying around so I decided to put to use. Most off the shelf gps rx's are fine, but bring a map and learn basic orienteering. Lot's of options, but try a gps receiver first...

Frank

By Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 08:45 am: Edit

Dean,

The topography from '1928' is usually VERY good, the problem is that roads have been abandoned, new 4-lanes built, houses burned, subdivisions pop up, etc. etc....

Most have been photorevised within the past 10 years, so they're not THAT out-of-date, but it's still not accurate up to 'right now'... you have to go to recent aerial photos or sat imaging to get THAT current.


-L